Clamping the knee

[Phenix]

DO you clamp your knees while doing YJKYM?
if so why?
if no why not?

[TjD]

i don't clamp the knees. rather i try and grasp the floor with my feet by pulling the legs together. we call it adduction. you can't see the difference but you can definately feel it when its in use :D

i think clamping the knees is bad for structre and can really damage your knees at that.


in SLT, i just grasp the floor enough to keep my structure - relaxation being a main focus of the form.

my use of the YJKYM in more dynamic applications (chi sau/sparring) can go from that light grab in SLT to a great clenching of the floor depending on the situation.

why? it greatly improves root. it adds a whipping power to your legs motions/shifts. it even speeds your steps. that is, if you do it right :D

[kj]

Originally posted by Phenix
DO you clamp your knees while doing YJKYM?
if so why?
if no why not?

No. Why try to create an unnatural sideways hinge in the knee joint? It pains my knees just thinking about it. :eek:

But my knees do "kim sut" toward each other. Toes and knees aligned and angled in, yes. The knees geometrically moving closer together as the stance is sunken (lok ma), but not due to any forcing or "clamping." There is just enough pressure to retain a styrofoam cup without deforming it. That is significantly different from the connotation of "clamping" to me.

"Adduction," like TjD said, is a superior word from an anatomical perspective, IMHO. Positioning of the knees in this sense provides the basis of a particular means of support, movement and body unity.

The Emei practitioner in your photos did not show this, but as I recall, the Crane appeared to have more concern of it.

I realize some people don't apply this stance, supporting and moving themselves differently.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[reneritchie]

Kim, as in Kim Sut, means to clamp or press. I don't pinch them together either, but rather internally rotate them and sink to bring the together. I'm not sure if that's not clamping in a more general body sense, but if you just hear the words Kim Sut, it could give a wrong (and potentially body damaging) impression.

I clamp them because its one of the overall components of the system I learned, including power generation and offensive/defensive alignment. If you don't control your leg alignment, power will "leak" out before it gets to where you want it, and attacks will slip through where you don't want them to.

[azwingchun]

power will "leak" out

Nice way of thinking or putting it. Never thought about it as a 'leak'. ;)

[black and blue]

If stuff starts to leak out when you're in YCKYM... you have some sort of problem. :p

However it works for some animals found (for example) in Canada... Skunk-Fu? :D

Ahh... one day I'll have something constructive to say.

[azwingchun]

Sometimes we need a little comic relief on this forum, LOL!!

But back to your statement, that is possibly why we pull in the anus. LOL!! Sorry, but it was there. ;)

[anerlich]

No clamping here.

IMO the stance is to develop sensitivity to relaxed structiral alignment. The knees come in as a natural function of sinking with the feet (slightly) wider then the hip joints, but forcing them in is anathema.

[tparkerkfo]

I need some reasuring. LOL. So I am going to agree with those before me and not offer any radical or contraversial advice. LOL

I think we need to be careful about the word clamp. It is not a word I would use, but I think there is a little bit of pressure that keeps the knees together. As KJ pointed out, you should be able to hold a foam cup, tin can, empty water bottle (small), without crushing it. Bringing the knees together is done more by rotating the legs and naturally bending the knees, which lowers the stance. Then an ever so slight pressure to keep the knees in place. You REALLY gotta be carefull so you don't put any strain on the knees as they are not built for sideways pressure. People do develop knee problems from practicing this incorrectly.

As a side note, many other lines do not do this, or not to the extreme I was taught.

Tom
________
Amateur gay (http://www.****tube.com/categories/55/gay/videos/1)

[Horz]

As per Rene's comments.

My knees converge fowards to kim sut, not clamped.
Its all about the internal rotation of the hips.

No kim sut, no WCK root. IMO

[kj]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Kim, as in Kim Sut, means to clamp or press. I don't pinch them together either, but rather internally rotate them and sink to bring the together. I'm not sure if that's not clamping in a more general body sense, but if you just hear the words Kim Sut, it could give a wrong (and potentially body damaging) impression.

Nuances, connotations, and interpretations are everything, whether "clamp," "kim sut," "relax," or what have you. Of "clamp" or "press," I far prefer "press," though even that has it's problems as a sufficient and accurate description, IMHO. The hazards and pitfalls of words. :(



I clamp them because its one of the overall components of the system I learned, including power generation and offensive/defensive alignment. If you don't control your leg alignment, power will "leak" out before it gets to where you want it, and attacks will slip through where you don't want them to.

Save my stubborn exception and dilemma with the literal translation or interpretation of "clamp" (because of its connotation for me), what you wrote here is ever so true and significant, IMHO.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[TjD]

i agree, the leg is best built to accept force from an angle perpendicular to the leg. (hard to describe). basically, if the feet are pointing in a direction that is pointing the same direction as the knee, that line is the direction where the legs can generate and accept the most amount of force.

from other angles, weaker muscle groups need to make up for the lack of structure, which creates a more tense leg and doesn't let the strongest muscles in the leg (quads, calves, glutes, hamstrings) take on all the impact or generate all the force.

while the WC stance mabye be pidgeontoed (in our lineage), and the side stance may not seem to point directly towards the opponent, with pressing the legs together properly it always feels that this is the direction in which the force is absorbed (assuming you have a good stance).

i don't see it as much as energy leakage, but rather a non-optimal use of body mechaincs. personally, i think wing chun provides a way to find the optimum way to use your body in all situations (it's even helped improve my water skiing!).

but in my school energy cultivation and chi kung is not really verbally emphasized, so perhaps we see things differently.