Raise knee 1st then kick or Kick straight from the ground

[LC-NYC]

I'm curious to find out what you guys think. When kicking do you think that you will do more damage if you was to kick straight from the ground to the target without bending your knee first or do you think that by bending the knee first before you reach your target creates more power?

I assume that most martial artists bend their knees first before kicking.

Some wing chun practitioners bend their knees others don't ? They both have their reasons. What do you guys think?:confused: :D

[Wingman]

Kick straight from the ground to the target without bending the knee. As the kicking leg is heading towards the target, the supporting leg is pushing against the ground. This is where the kick gets its power.

[mtod1]

Hi, I think kicking should begin with a bent knee.
That is, you should already be in your stance (hopefully this means both your knees are already bent), then lift/bend the leg you intend to kick with at the knee. Shoot it out then bring it back and put it down. All as one smooth movement of course.

Power comes from the whole body.

p.s if you kick with a straight leg, you'll be giving yourself away every time you kick, and you'll probably be easy prey for a knee break or a sweep etc etc.

I think the only time that I'd ever kick with a straight leg is for a crescent or axe kick.

hope that helps
seeya
;)

[Atleastimnotyou]

wing chun fights so close that it would be hard to kick without bending the knee. the only time you can kick without bending is when you're closing the gap, but then when you tried to lift your leg, your opponent will notice because there will be more movement in your shoulders.
Personally, i think bending the knee will make your kick more substantial. Plus lifting the leg this way will create less movement in the shoulders.

[Stevo]

I've seen Wong Shun Leung demonstrate both ways in a seminar by kicking against a wall. Try it yourself and you will see.

[Block]

Straight from the ground. Nearest weapon to the closest target along the quickest path.

Raising the knee gives the opponent more time to counter. You should be able to kick straight from the ground with as much power as when raising your knee. When you first learn to kick you raise the knee but that's more of a training exercise.

Whether you raise the knee or go straight from the ground, the upper body is motionless. Also the kick should never retract (again, that’s just for training). It should step. WC doesn't retreat.

[sticky fingers]

I agree with Block

I think some ppl have misunderstood that to mean u kick with a dead straight leg. That is not true. It means to kick in one movement, not 2 movements as in raise knee first then kick. Your knee will be bent to some degree.

mtod1 - do you practice WC? just wondering as u mentioned crescent and axe kicks.

[mtod1]

hideho

yea, I'm a Twc guy. I did twd when i was younger. ;)

kicking against a wall is a bit silly. It'll jar your bones and do damage. I agree that any kick should be one complete movement.

[TjD]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
wing chun fights so close that it would be hard to kick without bending the knee. the only time you can kick without bending is when you're closing the gap, but then when you tried to lift your leg, your opponent will notice because there will be more movement in your shoulders.
Personally, i think bending the knee will make your kick more substantial. Plus lifting the leg this way will create less movement in the shoulders.


you have to get that close somehow. wing chun kicks can be used to get in their by clearing the way, or just end the fight earlier. if you can finish the fight with one straight/side kick, wouldn't it be better to do that then charge in and risk being hit among other things? the kick conserves much more energy if you ask me.

wing chun does have a kicking range. when you think about it, the wing chun side kick is the longest range kick out there. it goes straight out from the hip. a kick at any other angle will have a shorter range (simple mathmatics). wing chun may not have 3000 kicks like some arts, but the old saying goes "fear not the man whose practiced 100 punches 10 times, but fear the man whose practiced one punch 1000 times." practice your kicks enough and they'll have to have to get past YOUR kicks.

when your up in tight, theres much less reason to kick and much more reason to knee. closest weapon -> closest target. most close-range kicks i do are to the supporting leg, or sweeping kicks, because thats the range they operate at. the front and side kicks are long range weapons in my experience and dont bend the knee any more than it is already bent by being in your stance - get that heel out there as fast as possible over the shortest distance.

[mun hung]

Lots of kicks in Wing Chun. Why can't there be both?

[TjD]

in my experience, chambering the kick (raising the knee) seems to violate wing chun structural principles. when used at close range you give your opponent an easy way to uproot and offbalance you - while a knee strike does not, and has the same range and effect.

when you would do a chambered kick, why would it be superior to doing a knee?

[reneritchie]

Both. You need to be able to kick effectively from anywhere your foot is actively located in application.

[fa_jing]

We practiced both, specifically differentiating between these two types of kicking motions.

[Bill_G]

Chambering the kick does not give anything
away. You can chamber then kick high or low
and use any of the 4 kicks. You telegraph more
coming straight from the ground. I don't think you
should rechamber after the kick but rather use
the weight of the leg to give descending power
to the following strike.

[foolinthedeck]

doesnt tsum kiu have both kicks?
one before stepping and bonging
one before stepping and double bonging.
hmm..

[Bill_G]

Yes, the way we do Chum Kiu, the huen won gyeuks
is not chambered, but all other kicks are.

[Ultimatewingchun]

There is SOMETHING of a middle-path answer to this question, in my opinion.....

Coming straight up from the ground definitely enhances SPEED, which is very important and adds greatly to the likelihood that the kick will be - if not totally successful - at the very least - not something that can be easily countered...

Learning how to chamber the kick... SOMEWHAT... during flight will add to the power....

giving you, in my opinion, the best of both worlds.

On balance: SPEED considerations- 60
POWER.........................40

[wingchunalex]

I think the knee should be raised, then you thrust out with the kick and then "scrape down" bringing your foot straight back to the floor not retracting the knee then brining it down.

I don't perform the thrust kick the same way i've seen others do it in chim kui where they basically just swing their leg up straight with no real thrusting forward motion to it. (just to contrast what i said above).

I don't think the kick should be chambered like in the way i've seen tae kwon do do their front/thrust kick.

I hope that all makes sence.

[Wingman]

I don't normally raise my knee then kick. But there are some exeptions. One scenario I can think of is when you execute a bong gerk. In bong gerk, you raise your knee to deflect an opponent's kick. After the bong gerk, you can do a side kick (wang gerk). You don't have to put your foot on the ground in order to execute the wang gerk.

Another scenario is when you do multiple kicks. After executing the first kick, your foot/knee is already raised. If your first kick was countered by your opponent, you can execute another kick without first putting your foot down.

In both cases, the knee is raised before the kick. But the kick is not telegraphed because raising the knee is necessary in the given situation.

[LC-NYC]

Things to think about!

1. Some say in wing chun that one should kick with the assistance of the hands. There should be bridge contact with the hands when kicking so that we don't miss, so that we have a better structure which increases our balance and other reasons.

2. When we practice chi-gerk the knees are chambered/bent. This makes it easier to constantly kick, deflect/trap.

3. Kicking from the floor without bending the knees creates an upward more than a forward force.

Kicking by chambering(bending) the knee creates a forward force.

4. Greatest known kickers chamber before they use a front or sidekick.

I think I have a picture of Yip Man bending/chambering his knees before he threw a kick.

As always I'm open to others opinion what do you guy's think?

[Wingman]

Originally posted by LC-NYC
Things to think about!

1. Some say in wing chun that one should kick with the assistance of the hands. Thier should be bridge contact with the hands when kicking so that we don't miss besides other reasons.

True. In fact, we train to be able to kick from an arm's distrance.


2. When we practice chi-gerk the knees are chambered/bent. This makes it easier to constantly kick, deflect/trap.

True. This is the same as what I said in the above post about multiple kicks.

3. Kicking from the floor without bending the knees creates an upward more than a forward momentum/force.

Yes, it has an upward and a forward component.

Kicking by chambering(bending) the knee creates a forward momentum/force.

True.

4. Greatest known kickers chamber before they use a front or sidekick.

No comment. You didn't mention who they are.:)

5. I think I have a picture of Yip Man bending/chambering his knees before he threw a kick.

As what I've said in my previous post, there are some situations where raising the knee (chambering) is necessary before executing a kick.

As always I'm open to others opinion what do you guy's think?

IMHO, raising the knee is not a pre-requisite for a WC practitioner to execute a kick. A WC practitioner should be able to kick without raising his knee first. A WC practitioner sometimes raises his knee before kicking because the situation requires him to do so.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by LC-NYC
I'm curious to find out what you guys think. When kicking do you think that you will do more damage if you was to kick straight from the ground to the target without bending your knee first or Yes more damage to yourself.

The most powerful & safe method is to raise the knee, then kick, but in one motion, of course.


do you think that by bending the knee first before you reach your target creates more power? Where would the power come from?

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Wingman
A WC practitioner should be able to kick without raising his knee first. A WC practitioner sometimes raises his knee before kicking because the situation requires him to do so. I believe the reverse to be true.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Block
Raising the knee gives the opponent more time to counter. Raising the knee provides for stability. Used at the appropriate time, the opponent's counter should be less of an issue.


When you first learn to kick you raise the knee but that's more of a training exercise. Your beginnings are usually most important.


Whether you raise the knee or go straight from the ground, the upper body is motionless. Depending on the kick you execute.


Also the kick should never retract. It should step Some times retracting is necessary, sometimes stepping.


WC doesn't retreat. No, but it does recoil.

[Stevo]

Originally posted by mtod1
kicking against a wall is a bit silly. It'll jar your bones and do damage.

So is standing on eggs and pushing chopsticks into your throat, LOL.

The kick against the wall was only hard enough to illustrate a point, not hard enough to jar bones or dislodge bricks!!!

[Ng Mui]

The leg is bent when kicking and straightens upon impact. I have heard a old school saying that in Wing Chun '' The arms are like arrows and the feet like wheels'' meaning punches shoot straight toward the target. Kicks raise and then lower, hitting the knee, scraping the shin and stomping the foot in one semi circle movement.

[mun hung]

How can you argue with Ng Mui! :D

There are many Wing Chun kicks - what makes you think that they all generate power the same way?

Some are done with the lifting of the knee - some aren't.

[Block]

Hi Enterthewhip,


Raising the knee provides for stability. Used at the appropriate time, the opponent's counter should be less of an issue.

I find that I'm just as stable when kicking from the ground as when lifting the knee but we practice it ad nauseum. You're right that you execute a kick only at an appropriate moment (WC kicks never miss) but by kicking straight from the ground you have a built in safety margin.


the upper body is motionless. Depending on the kick you execute

Since we don't kick above the waist then you should be able to keep your upper body motionless in any kick. Again it takes a heck of a lot of practice to get.


Some times retracting is necessary, sometimes stepping.

I guess it could be necessary once in a while to retract. I can't think of a situation, can you give me an example?

From my point of view, if I've kicked then I've captured that territory where my kick has travelled. I'd rather step and capitalise on it rather than retract and give that territory back to my opponent.


No, but it does recoil.

I'm not sure what you mean by recoil. If an attack is too strong we take a single bracing step back but then counter immediately
.

[mun hung]

(quote) Originally posted by Block
Since we don't kick above the waist then you should be able to keep your upper body motionless in any kick.

What makes you think that Wing Chun doesn't kick above the waist?

Yip Man kicked above the waist.

[Block]

What makes you think that Wing Chun doesn't kick above the waist?

Well all the kicks I have learnt are at waist height or below. I haven't seen pictures of Yip Man kicking above the waist but I'll take your word for it.

However, I thought kicking above the waist breaks WC structure, balance and safety principles. From the experience I have had against TKD blackbelts, once their leg is above their hip it's easy to get them off balance.

The one thing I hear again and again on WC forums is why kick high when it’s easier, faster and safer to punch.