Question about groin strikes_no trolls

[Robinf]

Guys,

Serious, honest question.

We're sparring a bit more now in kung fu, and we have quite a few new guys. In fact, I'm the only woman, and I have 20 brothers.

We've been practicing applications and there are, of course, groin strikes--kicks, punches, grabs, etc.

Now, I can tell that none of them are making contact with the groin as they practice these techniques on each other.

They are making contact with me. No grabs, but punches, kicks and knees. Admittedly, I need to move faster to block, and I'm learning to do so.

But, does this give me the right to hit/kick their groin? I go near, but I fall short, and they know that.

Would it be acceptable for a woman to hit you in the groin if you hit her there, or would you guys think that's foul play?

If you decide to make your answer a joke, please be sure to tell me it's a joke. I'm a bit sensitive about this topic. Use the smiley faces to indicate a joke.

Thanks for the opinions guys.
Robin

[prana]

honestly, when I spar with a woman, there is no way int he world I would attack her in the breasts.

I would hope that the same is done in return. I am sure all the guys here would agree with me, a good smack square int he groin (even if its just a tap) would send hours of drilling pain rising up their stomach and eventually causing pain the chest.

maybe its just me... not sure. Having said that, mistakes are mistakes, and if you smack him there, if he is okay, then just apologise and give him room to breathe. I think that is the most polite thing to do.

[SevenStar]

agreed.

[KC Elbows]

You don't want to hit there, but during sparring, they should be wearing a cup, and should be actively reminded if they aren't covering their jujubes. Meaning, if they've got a cup on, kick 'em there. If you've got the cojones to do it.<------:D

[Liokault]

I have to ask why they are making contact with you (a femail) and not each other (males).

Is it because they think it doesnt hurt u?....Does it hurt you? Have you asked them not to hit you there?

The way I see it is that if they are hitting you in an area (any area) then you should feel free to also hit in that area, but you might like to point out what you are going to do and why to them.

Generaly in any sparring I like to let the other guy decide how much contact and how hard we are gouing to play. He knees me.....I knee him, he carrys on fighting on the ground.....I carry on fighting n the ground etc.

[Former castleva]

How about hitting women in the groin?
While not usually referred to or taken into account,how about that?
Besides,varying considerable medical issues may occur.
(Not a troll)

[Oso]

Are there not established rules for sparring and contact??

Are they universal in that they don't pertain to gender??

Or do they say "not here on men" and ''not here on women"



I think the most sensative and dangerous place to strike a woman would be ovaries. I never strike anywhere in that general area when sparring women.

Robin, what do you think about the various protective devices for women? I am debating whether to require them for sparring just like I require cups for men.(and mouthguards for all and headgear for under 18) But most women I know say they are really uncomfortable and would rather not wear them.

[Robinf]

I don't know why they're hitting me there and not hitting each other. That was part of why I posted this here.

The guys aren't hitting hard, though after a while I did end up with a bruise--but I'm learning to block faster.

Is it a lack of respect for me? Or is it just being a bonehead? Or is there more to it than lack of respect? They appear to respect each other enough to not go there. It's just unnerving that they do it to me exclusively, not each other.

But, in that respect, I do tend to hit them in the chest, but I hit women there as well and they hit each other there. They have refrained from punching me in the chest, though kicks do go there, which is just fine. I don't know if there were other women if we'd hit each other there.

The groin is just a hang up for me. Any other thougts?

[Chang Style Novice]

i would say in a sport oriented class when sparring all out, play by the rules (which I assume disallow groing contact.)

In a self-defence oriented class when sparring all out, gear up good, and be careful when striking at tender areas (not just groin, but throat, eyes, kidneys, etc.) because you are all there to learn. Learning includes learning to strike tender areas. It also doesn't include seriously injuring your classmates if you can help it.

[Former castleva]

Groin shots would be out of the game in sparring but as when it comes to hitting the chest I must mention that in terms of threat it is much more worse to be hit in the breastBONE than breasts,regardless of sex that would be "nasty".

[Robinf]

Oso,

There are rules, but they haven't been announced in a while. I'll talk to my sifu about it and see what we come up with.

I wear one of the female guards every TKD class--we spar in there a lot. I haven't been wearing it in kung fu because we haven't sparred in there in a long time and it is fairly uncomfortable. However, the guard does help a bit.

I was just taken aback, is all, that they kept going there with me. Maybe I'm just overreacting.

I am having a lot of fun sparring these guys, because I'm getting great practice. These guys are finally not afraid to hit or throw me (as has been the case in the past). Just this one point bothered me.

[SaMantis]

While a groin strike to a woman doesn't necessarily cause the level of pain it does a guy, nevertheless it can still hurt (I've been hit, too). As Oso points out, there's still ovaries and other "equipment" in the area and you can still sustain damage. A downward/frontal strike to the groin/pelvic area could damage the bladder in both men & women, for example.

The main thing here, however, is that it makes you uncomfortable. So just say "OK, no contact on a groin strike, it makes me uncomfortable. But hitting & throwing is OK." How the guys respond to your request will decide whether they're being disrespectful or if they just didn't know.

[Guile]

You should let them know that it is not fun for you.
Maybe they think since you area girl it doesnt hurt?

[Robinf]

It's not that it hurts, because we're not going full out or anything, so I get sore, but nothing major.

My point is, it's disconcerting to me to get hit in the groin, particularly by the hand. Getting kicked there doesn't phase me. It's the hand going there that has me disturbed.

[Prairie]

I would consider this disrespectful. I would think a statement of the rules is in order. If this doesn't work - make a few boys cry.

[apoweyn]

Robin,


Is it a lack of respect for me? Or is it just being a bonehead? Or is there more to it than lack of respect? They appear to respect each other enough to not go there. It's just unnerving that they do it to me exclusively, not each other.

I imagine it's less a lack of respect and more a lack of awareness. As guys, we know getting kicked in the jumblies hurts (though it's not always incapacitating). But we have no such knowledge of the experience of being women. So we assume that 'no jumblies = no pain = game on.'

To clarify, I don't assume that personally. I can't really imagine kicking a women in the groin deliberately. But if they are opting to do so, that's my guess at their reasoning.

If it really bothers you, though, ask. Ask someone there you trust. "What gives? Why me?" When they say, "you don't have any jumblies", you say, "Have you ever asked me whether that makes the difference?"


Stuart B.

[No_Know]

Only female? Might be their chance to cop a feel-ish

They might not understand. They think you don't have their equipment, there's not anything to be hurt.

They don't know where your stuff is and want to get close but accidentally too close.


SaMantis said some good stuff. You might should announce off limit things to your partner before you start the activity...No contact to the groin (perhaps even, mark, my groin starts here).

If you are letting them strike to feel what a complete range strike is like cup that area with your hand. Move the hand down and out some stiffen. Let them hit your hand lightly. Or drop your gloved hand so they can hit with more force and still have the right height and placement (with your groin moved back or side or out of the way, with your upper body as much in place as you can.

There are sacred things. We are trained to do or not do. Women's breasts are more sacred/sensitive then male breast. ~

Dont touch a woman's privates. A male hurts when hit in the groin...almost superstitions perhaps.

On your technique Robinf, the target is below the pelvis (within an inc below). Of the triplets of that area of a male the Pain comes from getting the identical twins.

[Guile]

They definitly need cups now!:eek:

[Oso]

Robin, this is just my opinion and the environment I try to create in my school. What I said before still applies and this situation should probably be taken up with your teacher if you are that uncomfortable with it and let her/him correct anything he feels is wrong.

Having said that, I try to create a somewhat genderless atmosphere. I pay attention to specific areas of both anatomies that go on the list of 'don't hit hard'. Eyes, Throat, Ear(drums), spine, sides of knee, bladder, spleen, kidneys, groin(both genders), lower abdominal area on women. I talk to women about the fact that it is going to be very difficult to not get hit in the chest and recommend a women's chest protector. Every woman I know who has tried one on has said they would rather occasionally get hit in the chest than wear one to spar. If they are over 18 that is their choice. I've never met a woman who has tried on one of the women's groin protectors.

I tell all my students that we are here to explore the martial arts and that there will be a lot of physical contact to personal areas of the body but that I expect everyone to be adults and very matter of fact about it. I let them know that I am going to be very matter of fact but not crude in talking about the body. If I am working with a new female student I let her know when I am about to touch or grab her waist or hips but after she as been there awhile I don't feel a need to if she gotten comfortable with me. I am just adjusting her the same way I adjust any of the male students. My limited experience is that it is very hard to get male students to forget that they are working with a female and do what they are training to do and not worry about it. My girlfriend is training with me and she and a male student started about the same time and have been steady training partners and she told me he kept freaking out and apologizing profusely everytime he came in contact with her chest. :) She had to keep telling him that it was ok and they would not be able to train the way they were supposed to be if he kept wigging out ever time he touched her 'teat' (her words) I think he freaked out when she said that too:D. But, he's gotten over it.

It sounds like you maybe suspect that there is some other intent from your fellow students. If so, talk to your teacher. If something else is going on he neads to have a discussion with his boys. If nothing else is going on besides training then you might need to figure out why you feel wierd about it.

again, just my .02, good luck.

[Oso]

I would consider this disrespectful. I would think a statement of the rules is in order. If this doesn't work - make a few boys cry.


LOL, that's the spirit. If you can score on them it would surely get their attention.


But, it depends on the rules of the school. If the groin is a fair target in sparring then it should be fair on anyone.

[Oso]

If it really bothers you, though, ask. Ask someone there you trust. "What gives? Why me?" When they say, "you don't have any jumblies", you say, "Have you ever asked me whether that makes the difference?"


another good point


plus, I just like it when Ap says 'jumblies':D

[Guile]

Originally posted by Oso



another good point


plus, I just like it when Ap says 'jumblies':D
Never heard of that before but its funny and non-vulgar:D

[ZIM]

Good discussion.

WRT contact with breasts, a female WC-er I know sometimes actually forces a male to touch her breasts in order to get past this hang up in chi sao. She's a little older, so maybe this is a factor, I can't say. But the point is that in chi sao a refusal to touch can get in the way of proper learning for both. Its interesting because that sometimes throws the guy off his game...

WRT contact with groin- it hasn't come up for me, so I'll just follow the conversation. My $.02 is that they shouldn't be doing this, and I know I wouldn't- thats a court case waiting to happen. It does seem overtly sexual.

[guohuen]

Carefull with the groin shots. It's an overated target. I was leaving a PX on Ft Lewis one evening with two cases of beer and a guy about 6'6" 250lbs. stepped out of the bushes and demanded my money and beer. I let the beer slide down my leg to the grass hoping too many bottles wouldn't be broken and kicked this guy really hard in the daddy button. Apparently he went into shock immedietly and other than being knocked backwards it didn't faze him because he charged me. I sidestepped his advance and it took six hard strikes to the head to knock him down. Not a fun experience. Could have ended badly for me.

[Guile]

Woh, yea good thing you got in those shots :D
Maybe he had little ones:rolleyes:

[apoweyn]

Oso,


plus, I just like it when Ap says 'jumblies'

I laughed out loud the first time I heard my friend Brian use the term. Been using it ever since. It's not vulgar. It's not clinical. It's perfect.

:)

[Oso]

guohen, I'd a let him have the two cases of beer. He would have had his hands full then.:)

I agree, the groin is overated as a strike target. The biggest benifit is as a distractionary technique just because most guys will certainly move to protect them out of instinct thus dropping at least one hand...unless of course he's good and covers with a leg and then you have a hand or foot out of position...but then you could...then he could...but...:D




hoping too many bottles wouldn't be broken

and I see you're a classy beer drinker;)

[guohuen]

Well I am now. Back then it was Oly bottles at 4.00 a case. I wasn't buying. I was flying.

[Robinf]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses, guys.

Ap,
lol at jumblies.

I did ask one of the guys, who did the same thing last night, why he punched me there, and he turned completely red and said he just wasn't thinking and apologized.

I asked this question to get more of a general sense of why a guy would do that when sparring. I've come to trust many of your opinions and see that it probably is just thoughtlessness. I don't know what goes on in the male head, so I have to count on the ideas/opinions of the guys out there I know.

Last year, we had a couple of guys leave because I spoke to sifu about this happening and he talked to them. They left. I don't want to keep driving people away. That's why I came here to feel out what was the general male view of that.

Oso,
Sounds like you're doing fine in your school. I don't think twice about chest shots--either giving them or taking them. I don't wear the protectors, either (except in sport TKD where it's mandatory to wear the shield). I've actually gotten used to getting hit there and it doesn't bother me.


Do you guys have a lot of female students in your kwoons?

And thanks, No_Know, for the technique cues.

[Former castleva]

This reminds me of having read how women used to be kept out of competing in olympics in slightly older times-
It was said that they cannot participate because of possible reproductive organ related injuries...
Well things are different these days,I do not remember exactly if this had to do with specific sports or something.

[Golden Arms]

If you are training to fight, you should learn how to protect that area, just as they should as well. No need to blast them there if you can help it, but I dont hesitate to hit there or aknowledge someone if they catch me there, its just like jabbing at someones eyes. Hard to see, really hard to block, and ifthey dont get used to it and how to deal with it, they may get a rude awakening one day. Just my $.02

[Guile]

Originally posted by Golden Arms
If you are training to fight, you should learn how to protect that area, just as they should as well. No need to blast them there if you can help it, but I dont hesitate to hit there or aknowledge someone if they catch me there, its just like jabbing at someones eyes. Hard to see, really hard to block, and ifthey dont get used to it and how to deal with it, they may get a rude awakening one day. Just my $.02

If you are training to fight, I agree.

[Shadowboxer]

Robin,

If they go there you can go there. Just try to match their power.
It's probably best that you talk with whoever you are sparring before hand and agree upon if the target is "legal" and how much power to use. Explain to them that it hurts (to whatever extent it does). You really don't want them to treat you any differently than another male in the class because if you ever have to use your skills your attacker probably won't pull any punches. I haven't sparred any females yet but I asked about it and was told to treat them like everybody else. And, like everybody else I'm careful. I always intend to strike female students, even if they are beginners. Sometimes I make contact with their breasts but I don't apologize because I don't want them to feel that makes them different in a MA sense. And they make contact with my cup when they throw that knee to my groin. ;)

[Oso]

I only have 8-10 students depending on how you count them.(they move really quickly sometimes). Again, I'll be open 2 years this may. After the first female student started about 6 months after I started class I've had a least 1-2 out of the 6-10 since then. BUT, I had 2 women in monday night and they seemed to get a kick out of it so they may stay. But, they said they could only come on Monday's due to church on Wed. :(

my sifu's school usually had about a 1-4 or 1-5 ratio of men to women. I don't know but that sounds higher than normal.


I don't plan on chest protection being mando for over 18 but will have them available for use.

[Robinf]

Oso,

Sounds like those two women have good potential to stay.

We've always had a problem retaining women. I stay because I love kung fu and I've been with the school for 9 years--I just automatically go there at certain times of the day.

It does hurt considerably more getting hit in the breast than the groin for me, but I'm pretty fast at avoiding or blocking hits to the chest, and I've built up a tolerance to it.

Your sifu's school sounds like it does have a pretty high ratio of women. How many students total, do you know?

Golden Arms, Guile,
I do agree with you guys that if you're training to fight, then you should train to take care of your entire body. So, I am getting good practice. I just found it odd that they only made contact with me there and they pull back when sparring another guy.

[Oso]

I never kept up with the total enrollment but in the 3 years I was his senior instructor a big night would have 25-30 people in line but usually it would be 15-20. This was in the 6:30 class for 0-3 year students. There was a 4:30 beginners class as well as an advanced class. plus kids and tai chi.

[Vapour]

Would this site help?

http://www.fl.net.au/~church/bbsite/index2.html

[Vapour]

I found better site.

http://www.kt.rim.or.jp/~tantan/

Dont miss the "Women Beat Men" section. Not Work Safe. Sorry.

[Laughing Cow]

Robinf.

In my class we are about 60/40 men and women.
Our rule is:
"What is good for the goose is good for the ganter".

My style like many others practice "groin area " strikes, but I prefer to target the bladder. ;)

IMO, for any attack you learn you also need to learn the counter.

[shaolin kungfu]

Iron crotch could make this groin strike problem disappear.
:)

[Guile]

Better buy those tapes on the links we see:p

[wushu chik]

In all seriousness...either tell them how you feel, or hit them back! Those are basically your only 2 choices!

If you're gonna spar with guys, you're gonna get hit like a guy. If they're not hitting each other in the groin, and they're hitting you in the groin, it's probably because they don't realize that it hurts a woman to get hit there. Guys will protect their groin more than anything, and women usually don't look at this area as a big pain section (althought it does hurt bad when you get hit there).

If it's just you being uncomfortable that they have their hand there, then it's a call you're going to have to make. I just don't understand the statement "It doesn't bother me to get kicked there, just their hand there". Because, in sparring, it's all about getting hit. They're probably using that area as an attack area because you're not blocking it and it's a good shot! They probably also don't realize that it makes you uncomfortable to have them hit you their either. Just say something to them, I'm sure they'll understand.....

Otherwise...just hit them back and then while they're on the floor in pain and tears and screams like you've never seen are coming from them...lean down and whisper "You like that?? Well, then don't do it to me".

Either or, it's your call....

~Wen~

[Robinf]

wushu chik,

I posted here to learn more of why a guy would make contact with a woman there. Is it carelessness or is something more going on beneath that? I realize it's more than likely just carelessness.

shoalin and vapour,

lol!

Thanks guys for all your help. I consider the matter closed.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Golden Arms
If you are training to fight, you should learn how to protect that area, just as they should as well. No need to blast them there if you can help it, but I dont hesitate to hit there or aknowledge someone if they catch me there, its just like jabbing at someones eyes. Hard to see, really hard to block, and ifthey dont get used to it and how to deal with it, they may get a rude awakening one day. Just my $.02

I don't put much stake in groin shots in fights. I've seen them used - and had them used on me - and the pain doesn't REALLY kick in until after the fight's over and the adrenaline rush is gone.

[Guile]

arent you sooooo HUGe that your thighs block them anyway:D

[Nick]

You go to the dojo to learn, but if you get hurt too much, you fail to learn and only suffer.

Besides, I've been in the crotch and just thought to myself, "it was only a tap," but when I sit back down it starts to hurt a lot more.

Later...