7* or 8 step?

[Shaolin-Do]

All you hardcore pm guys out there... I was just wondering if you had any opinion between 7 star and 8 step pm? I know my school teaches forms from both... and I was also wondering what are the most advanced forms for 8 step?

[Tainan Mantis]

Your school teaches 8 Step too?

I find it hard to practice along side 7* as the differences are very big...
Power generation
theory of applications
arrangement of forms
tenseness of muscle while performing forms
approach to fighting
etc

What are the 8 Step forms your school teaches?
I don't think that 8 Step differentiates from beginner to advanced forms the way 7* does.

A master may find his favorite technique in the basic exercises, like GM Wei did.

Some of the round guys like the approach to the double leg takedown, not like wrestling version.
The wiry guys like the Tong Bei type slapping.
And some guys emphasize the Hsing Yi aspect.

Just the other day Mantis 108 was saying how the first and shortest form, 7 Hands, seemed to have the most amount of PM theory and technique in ratio to its few moves.
That is the two man form that can be done several ways.

[BeiTangLang]

All you guys need to do is take a look at their forms page to see where they are comming from. I do not claim to understand how or why they teach what they do, but they are. I would be very interested in knowing how they associate systems & techniques into a fighting sysytem with such a varied plate, but am unwilling to take the system to find out.
Hopefully, one from their school will explain it to us so we can see where they are comming from technique-wise. I have personaly visited a shhaolin-do school & fouund the instructor to be very receptive to visitors. We even showed our version of a form vs. their version of the same form. Very different in both motions, energy & length. Very different. I have no idea where their version cam from as it was not 7* as I have seen it played anywhere else, but enough of the positions were there to make the form recognizable.
If anyone else gets a chance to visit a Shaolin-Do school, I would appreciate your insights.
Thanks,
~BTL

[NorthernMantis]

I would be very interested in knowing how they associate systems & techniques into a fighting sysytem with such a varied plate, but am unwilling to take the system to find out

There is a reason Bei but I will not get into it. If the people from the main forum see Shaolin-do on this board then my friend you will see a flame war of the likes that you have never seen. More so thatn the southern forums wars.:eek:

If you want to know what I mean go to the main forum and search shaolin -do,Kwan Sin The', or boulder student.

[Shaolin-Do]

"Having Totality means being capable of following "what is" because "what is" is constantly moving and constantly changing. If one is anchored to a particular view, one will not be able to follow the swift movement of "what is"
-bruce lee
Dont just talk sh!t. Like bei said, look at it, give it a chance. Im not here to defend the actions of the association in the past, Im here to talk f*cking kung fu.... and I appreciate the straight forward comments... as for all you other pre-biased arses... just because the name says shaolin-do doesnt mean ****. Im still unsure as to where all of it came from, or how exactly it fits together. As far as I can see, it teaches all fighting from all angles... Shaolin-Do is most definately not the only style Ive studied.... And regardless of how GM Sin has treated and taught the system, the school here in town is excellent. As someone else said, its kind of a mesh of styles, and if someone can give me the names to 8 step forms, ill figure out which ones we learn.
-Shaolin-Do

[Tainan Mantis]

You have 8 Step forms, but don't know their names?

Maybe they are Lipi or Hsiao Fanche.
I don't think you would have any of their 2 man sets then.
That is a pity as those help introduce the fighting method of the style.

On a side note,
A friend sent a taped performance of a Mantis competition in China.

They announce the form as 8 Step and then this person performs HK 7*'s Beng Bu form.

No forms i either style even remotely resemble forms from the other style.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
All you hardcore pm guys out there... I was just wondering if you had any opinion between 7 star and 8 step pm? I know my school teaches forms from both... and I was also wondering what are the most advanced forms for 8 step?

Why don't you take some time to study them. Make up your mind which 7* or 8 Step... and go with it.

UM.

[yu shan]

Northern Mantis

Keep the peace brother! As for the "Do" part of this thread, not real sure, is this a Jap enfluence? Just trying to understand...

From what I have seen, a definite difference, 7* vs 8-step! A sure authority should be Tainan Mantis. 7* looks and feels like a karate style of gong-fu, would like to here about 8-step, and it`s energy.

[B.Tunks]

Yu Shan.

Your joking right?:

From what I have seen, a definite difference, 7* vs 8-step! A sure authority should be Tainan Mantis. 7* looks and feels like a karate style of gong-fu, would like to here about 8-step, and it`s energy. [/B][/QUOTE]

Seven star is closer to snow boarding than it is to Karate.

[Tainan Mantis]

I take it you're not Karate fan.

One thing I have noticed about forms like Cha Chuei and Duo Gang is that they have a higher ratio of straight punches to other techniques.

So they don't look soft the way Taichi does.

Since 8 Step has Ba Gua it just looks softer, especially the way GM Wei did it.
But these days it is hard to say.
At a China Tourny they announced the form as 8 Step and then the performer did the HK 7* Beng Bu form.

That was quite a shock.

But not all Karate is straight punches.
One style I learned had almost no straight punches.

Do is indeed Japanese. In Mandarin it is Dao.
To my knowledge Dao or the way has never been used to describe a Chinese MA.
This includes the veerry long lists of surviving and extinct MA's.
These can be found in Chinese historical works on MA which for the most part have never been translated into English.

[Shaolin-Do]

hehe... Skating helps too :)

I dont think any where near here teaches 8 step....
Thats what Id have to say Im a little more interested in....

[Shaolin-Do]

From san antonio thats one helluva drive for some kung fu :)

Maybe if theres a seminar or something....
But a 3x a week 5 hour drive.... hehehe.
:)

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
"Having Totality means being capable of following "what is" because "what is" is constantly moving and constantly changing. If one is anchored to a particular view, one will not be able to follow the swift movement of "what is"
-bruce lee
Dont just talk sh!t. Like bei said, look at it, give it a chance. Im not here to defend the actions of the association in the past, Im here to talk f*cking kung fu.... and I appreciate the straight forward comments... as for all you other pre-biased arses... just because the name says shaolin-do doesnt mean ****. Im still unsure as to where all of it came from, or how exactly it fits together. As far as I can see, it teaches all fighting from all angles... Shaolin-Do is most definately not the only style Ive studied.... And regardless of how GM Sin has treated and taught the system, the school here in town is excellent. As someone else said, its kind of a mesh of styles, and if someone can give me the names to 8 step forms, ill figure out which ones we learn.
-Shaolin-Do

I think it will be more easier to find out who did you learned form first, there are not many people who knows genuine 8 steps, you can count them with your fingers.

[PaulLin]

All mantis styles have talked about "jin" vs "li", I am not sure where other styles have mention it but in 8 step, it is clear that Jin traveled in curves and Li goes strait, Jin has no corners and Li are full of corners. Jin is alive and Li is dead.

To that aspect, Katate train to have more Li and mantis train to minimize Li, train on more Jin instead.

Pay attention to the correct 8 step, they are very different form 7 *. From a 8 step point of view, it is more efficient, that means spend less energy and achieve more results. It has different posture requirements than 7*. Moving patternt and alinement are different too. Also the addition of body weight distributions that 8 step has 7* didn't emphasised at all. These are not in the introductory book out there that you can find published, only the one who learned form GM Wei's and reatch enough level to know all the differences. It is very scientific and can be analyzed, no secrets or mysteries.

8 step is more philosiphical than 7* and 7* is more physical than 8 step, in my point of view.

[B.Tunks]

I would be interested to see what Seven Star your comparing to. There is almost no real seven Star in Taiwan except second hand from Hong Kong. Qixing in Taiwan is just Meihua Tanglang registered under a different name. To tell the truth, even the H.K Qixing is very different from the old chinese Qixing...

[Tainan Mantis]

Brendan,
What you say about 7* is only true to a point...
-Jiang Hsiangsan said he had some 7*, but maybe only one zhai yao form, which was very long.
-Li Kunshan didn't specify his style's name and so some people called it 7*.
-Not naming names, but some people have passed off material from Huang Hanhsuns books as there own version of 7*.

Funny example.
I am the MA coach at Tainan Boy's first High School.
After class one day a student says he knows a PM form and would I look at it.

Ok show it to me.
No doubt it is Beng bu, but I am perplexed.
Who is your teacher? Never heard of him.
Who is your grandteacher? You don't know?
Go ask your teacher where this form came from.

Next class he says he asked his teacher.
His teacher learned it from a book.
The funny part is that I am the only person who thinks this as strange!

There were some teachers in Taiwan who taught their own version of PM which seems like it must be 7*.

But almost every famous teacher or grandmaster of PM has become so because of the efforts of Su Yuzhang.
And later his Japanese student who published many MA books with chapters on MArtists in Taiwan.
-Wei Hsiaotang
-Wang Songting
-Li Kunshan
-Zhang Dekuei

Also the 7* PM from my shrfu is very dissimilar to the HK version.
Later 7* students came to Taiwan to study with my Shrfu.
So again you are correct since my shrfu also learned from them and also went to HK to study with them as well as Mantis108's shrfu.
But most of this happened after I came to Taiwan(1989).

Paul Lin,
I don't think your comments are fair to 7* as GM Wei's first PM book has a lot of material from 7*.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by PaulLin
These are not in the introductory book out there that you can find published, only the one who learned form GM Wei's and reatch enough level to know all the differences. It is very scientific and can be analyzed, no secrets or mysteries.

8 step is more philosiphical than 7* and 7* is more physical than 8 step, in my point of view.

8 Step sounds like excellent style of MA. Unfortunately, not EVERYONE can learn 8 Step under a GM. Those fortunate to study under a GM, consider it a blessing.

When I was bullied when I was young, I needed to learn to defend myself. I couldn't do 7 years of training just to learn to defend myself. I searched through a few schools, but be being the puny, under-nourished Puerto-Rican that I looked like at 14, often just got dirty looks. I found my Sifu in the Yellow Pages. He's not a GM (Yet) but he heard my plight took me in, and taught me how to fight, respect, and be humble. What he had, he shared. He's MY GM. I am FOREVER GRATEFUL to him.

In 6 months or less, no more bullies.

7* PM, under a knowledgable instructor willing to share, and with alot of practice, can produce and effective fighter in a short period of time. The way a 7* PM fighter generates power doesn't require him/her to be exceptionally strong. Make no mistake. It takes power in a punch to do damage to your opponent. Learning to generate that power the way a 7* PM fighter does, takes practice.

[PaulLin]

I would agree that it can be very possible my 7* mantis perspection will be off form real practicianers of 7*, since I am only practicing 8 step, not 7*.

It is true that more external (what I considered) would give faster application ability, only the lucky ones that can affort to wait and take times to learn more internal sides. I have learned that most external would give you some very useful application within a year, about 2 to 5 years it could reatch to a peak. After that, it wouldn't go any higher much. In contrast, internal need minimum of 5 to 10 years training in order to use correctly, and for 20 years or never will reatch a dead end, depends on many factors.

8 step is considered half-half, and 7* is bit more on the external side. Many out there fill-in the unknow 8 step parts with 7*, that would make better if you just go learn 7* in the first place.

And about that book, you will find many 7* materials, no surprise, many parts were wrote by Su YiZhan to make up pages.

[BeiTangLang]

7* starts out hard as you want it,...but as you study the forms it becomes more & more appearant that theres an internal aspect that not only deserves time be spent on learning it, but that time will allow you to perform it well into your old age because of it.
Too many people assume too much because of names.
Best Wishes,
~BTL