Wing Chun and ISLAM

[foolinthedeck]

hi all.
recently we had a Muslim student at our school.
he said that he could not train with us though because we all bow to each other as a measure of respect.
Its against his religion he said.
I presume its becuase one should only bow before Allah.

has anyone else experienced this?
are there any Muslim Wing Chun heroes out there?

its interesting, this cultural / religious difference, you wouldnt have thought it would be a big deal until you come across it.

when you think about it, should christians have a problem with bowing to each over and not god?

this is not an anti-islamic thread, so please keep any ethnocentric views to yourselves.ta

[dezhen2001]

hey mate... im muslim :)

but then again we dont bow in our group as u know.

Theres a difference between doing the ruku/sujud and bowing to each other as a sign of respect. For a start physically Ruku is a bend at around 90 degrees with hands on your knees... Sujud is a full prostration on the ground with forehead, nose, palms, knees and feet touching the ground.

The most important thing though is your intention. Whats your intention for doing that? (in islam we say God looks to your heart and intention) is it because its something cultural? Are you forced to do it? Is there any other way to show respect that is mutually beneficial? Why is it a problem? - is your ego so great that you dont want to be "below" anyone but God?(even though islam tells us to follow and respect those in authority in the community we live) - Are you so unsure of your faith that you can get bowing for kung fu and when praying mixed up? There are a lot of things... its all on your intention and understanding.

it also depends on which group he belongs to... some can be rather restrictive even though islam tells us to be the "middle" and to respect those who have authority.

China has a population of Muslim born Chinese called Hui - so wonder what they do? (they have such kung fu as Cha Quan, Xinyi Liuhe Quan and others as well as some were quite famous i think).

i think if he sincerely wants to join then its worth talking to him about it and really trying to find out why he thinks this and also if there is a way around it. Even if he wants to talk to me ask him to contact me on dezhen2001@yahoo.co.uk :)

hope thats a small help!
dawood

[kj]

Religious views in all denominations and faiths will have a broad range of manifestations. I don't think we can fairly characterize people, or the strictness of their habits by denomination or faith alone.

I have heard that for some Orthodox Jews, for example, that the men are forbidden to attend classes with females; working with women in a Wing Chun class would be strictly forbidden. Yet many of us train alongside other Jewish partners on a regular basis.

I myself am a Christian, and know that beliefs of what is allowable or prudent for professed Christians are all over the map - not only varying by denomination, but even more so because of the individuals we all are. Sometimes it is a wonder how we can call ourselves as being of the same faith.

I see similar differences (sic) between people who claim to be Buddhist, Daoists, Hindus, etc. People of the same religion or philosophical bent often demonstrate vastly different mores or behaviors. Some of us take certain things more seriously than others too.

As for Muslims in Wing Chun, there definitely are some, even from China. We most often hear of Buddhism, Daoism, and Confucianism with respect to China, but the Muslim and Christian faiths also have a substantial presence.

At least one of my own sibaks is from a Chinese Muslim family. You wouldn't guess it unless he told you. Again, denominational and individual beliefs and practices will vary wildly. My sibak would probably also be disinclined to bow in your or anyone's school, but I suspect it would be more a matter of personal judgment than a religious matter, LOL.

Even Wing Chun schools have their own culture. In your school, it seems that the culture expects one to bow. In our lineage, there is distinctly no bowing, no special hand signals, etc.; when visitors do these kinds of things, it is usually met with a smile and a somewhat embarrassed request to refrain. For us, the hands are dictators of respect, LOL. Aside from that, we all meet as friends and equals.

So things are different all over. At the risk of sounding pukingly PC, it helps to consider the nature and diversity of people.

Just to share a few of my own random thoughts. Whether as individuals or representatives of our faiths, we share so much in common, yet we are all so different.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[dezhen2001]

great post :)

i think everyone is different, and a skill like wing chun can develop to suit everyone who trains it. it has done since its creation.

dawood

[pseudoswitch]

Great posts guys.

We have many Muslim students at our schools. We do not have a strict requirement for bowing or showing respect to one another, it is left to the student's own preference.

Showing respect can be done in many ways! Bowing is just one of them :)

Regards,

pseudo

[wingchunalex]

I know quite a few people who are moslem and do wing chun, one of which is my sifu. I also know 3 other moslems at our school. they don't have a problem with bowing.

I think there is a differece between bowing to a kung fu brother/sister and to God. In bowing to our kung fu brother/sister we are only showing respect. I think the bowing to God has a different meaning, I think it is more a bow of absolute dependence and servitude. The intention is different with the two.

But regardless of what I think about the subject, Its up to the perspective student that you mentioned and how he choses to practice his faith as other had mentioned.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi All,
Excellent posts. This is a topic I have never really thought much about. One thing I want to point out is that many if not most wing chun groups do not bow to each other. My sense is this is not a wing chun thing, but a chinese cultural thing. I have never attended a wing chun class that bowed. I think many people confuse martial tradition with Cultureal tradiation, which is understandable as there is obviously overlap.

How is this for an interesting story. I went to a wing chun seminar that was held by a muslem several years ago. The seminar was held in a Christian Church. No issues at all between Muslem, Christian, and pugulism. LOL. They followed their faith, and I was tempted to follow mine, though I am not real religious. But I did feel a bit odd practicing wing chun in a church.

My personal thoughts are religion and wing chun can coexist. Some people have some issues though. I myself find it funny that one that is relegious would think it is OK to develop fighting skills and I would think that would be a point of contention rather than bowing to another. But that is just me.

Tom
________
Kitchen Measures (http://kitchenmeasures.com/)

[kj]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
I myself find it funny that one that is relegious would think it is OK to develop fighting skills and I would think that would be a point of contention rather than bowing to another. But that is just me.

I don't see it as inconsistent, but instead close adherence to the golden rule "Do unto others lest they do unto you." <j/k> ;)

Regards,
- kj

[reneritchie]

We're a pretty informal group. Bow, shake hands, nod, smile, whatever. We do have some people of the Islamic faith amoung our students (we've had christians, jews, hindus, buddhists, and others as well) and its never even been a consideration (in that I don't know if they bowed or not, we were always too busy saying "hi" and getting with the WCK).

It would be strange for a class to insist on bowing, as its really piece-meal culture. If the entire thing was completely within Chinese custom (done in Cantonese, with some people sipping tea off to the side, playing mahjong or cards, wandering in and out, etc.) I'd understand, otherwise its just pseudo-cultural trappings and it shouldn't get in the way of the WCK.

[Guile]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
I myself find it funny that one that is relegious would think it is OK to develop fighting skills and I would think that would be a point of contention rather than bowing to another. But that is just me.

Tom

How is that a point of contention?
Being good doesnt mean being weak.
How can you defend others who need help when you are too weak to help yourself or will get smacked down if you try.

[dezhen2001]

good posts guys :)

we train in a church hall as well when its too cold for the park. Qigong is not too bad but we sure get some odd looks when doing the taiji push hands or stuicking hands hehe, especially also weapons :D

i think respect is either given or its not, no matter what you do, but then again its up to the club to "enforce" their etiquette.

im sure if your student wants to train then he will find a way :)

Guile: agreed. it depends on intention again.

dawood

[Tae Li]

hello all:D

I dont do wing chun but just want to applaud you all on MAINTAINING the topic. all great posts and opinions here.

Just wanna add that as stated previously, its all about the INTENTION, thats what it comes down to.

Tae Li;)

[tparkerkfo]

Originally posted by Guile


How is that a point of contention?
Being good doesnt mean being weak.
How can you defend others who need help when you are too weak to help yourself or will get smacked down if you try.

I admit it might just be my feable mind making irrational connections where they may not belong. My personal thought, which I don't mean to force on any one else, is that fighting is not a good thing, atleast in a religous(Christian) sense. People, ofocurse, have justified it over the years though. I would think some one who has a belief in God would have an issue with training to hurt another individual if they really adhear to what ever doctrines they hold dear. If one can not bow to another, then I would think Violence would also be an issue. Keep in mind this is my POV and I don't mean to suggest how others interprete their religous nature, especially in a different religion than what I am familiar with. And I am not very religous to boot. Just given you my perspective into my thought process.

But I think you made a valid point, as did KJ.

Sorry for any feather ruffling.
Tom
________
VAPOR LOUNGE (http://vaporizer.org)

[dezhen2001]

tparkerkfo: then how come the shaolin monks could defend the temple and china from invading japanese pirates? :)

I think non violence and being peaceful is the aim in most religions - but also the ability to adapt and sometimes you have no choice in things... kinda like what wing chun teaches to :D

dawood

[foolinthedeck]

wow.
thanks everyone for your posts. i'd like to hope that the guy i met could have read this thread, its gone really nice.

regarding the bowing especially, i previously posted on this.. when i used to train with Sifu Tse we never bowed, everyone knew where they stood..

having said that, i left the 'fold' after called sifu tse by his first name 'michael' at a new years dinner to ask him a question and was subsequently asked to apologise for not calling him sifu or sigong. for years afterwards i was ****ed off that 'respect' was such an issue. i have now learned from time away that i should have shown more respect. (dont know what david thinks of this?)

but i'm getting slightly off topic.
respect is in the hands,, KJ said that i think, and i respect you KJ from your posts, even though we've never played.

the bowing at the class i go to now was weird at first, now its normal. i quite like it, but wouldnt feel superior to bow to someone who doesnt normally bow.

i'd rather not even know what religion someone else is, becuase its not an issue, when people introduce themselves as 'insert stereotypical arabic name here'.. its easy to be judgemental, but then not all arabs are muslims either.

anyway. nice post.
much respect

[pseudoswitch]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck


i'd rather not even know what religion someone else is, becuase its not an issue

I agree, with regards training in the martial arts, it's not an issue. But besides business relating to religion and faith, why would it ever be an issue?


when people introduce themselves as 'insert stereotypical arabic name here'.. its easy to be judgemental.

Why and what would you be judgemental about if someone introduced themselves with an arabic name?


but then not all arabs are muslims either.


That's true. On average across arabic nations, 90-95% of the populations are muslim. But then again, not all muslims are arabs, are they?

Regards,

pseudo

[dezhen2001]

foolinthedeck: hmmm... i have been around penty of people who have called my sigong by his first name... i didnt really think it was much of an issue really but nvm i will pm you :)

Well on this board iuse my "arabic" name dawood which is just david. no big deal really - i know plenty of people who are arabic and not muslim, or even muslim but dont practise at all so it just depends :)

dawood

[old jong]

One of my students name is Abdull.He is Libanese and muslim so ,I asked him about the bowing thing.
He told me that the bow,we do at the end of each lessons is not an offense to his beliefs at all. He consider this the same as an handshake,nothing more.
He is also one of the nicest guys I know so the he ll with religions wars!

[dezhen2001]

Cool OJ - their french is a bit weird though eh? (if he speaks it - depends where from) :D

My other half is also lebanese muslim and she said the same thing... its all based on your intention. if you view it as a handshake and mark of respect then no problem - if you view it as more than that then there is a prob :)

foolinthedeck: if you want to get even more technical - then tell him why does it matter? - as when we bow to God we face the Qiblah which is in Mecca. Anywhere else is not right (unless you dont know the direction of the Qiblah).

dawood

[davethedragon]

in the wing chun instruction that i attend the bow is always followed with everyone saying "thank you for training"which we say to each other it is used just as a gesture and has no religious significance.
if the chap feels that it goes against his religious pronciples and so based on that is not prepared to bow fair play to the man i say.
its all about individual preference. im sure nobody in my class would be offended by that.
i personally am a buddhist and have no problem with bowing because i see the action for what it is meant as , a gesture nothing more nothing less. in different schools it may have different significance.
i must admit to be fascinated with islam though and would like the opportunity to learn more about.

[dezhen2001]

cool but be careful as there are a lot of hokey islamic sites around... if u wanna read some interesting articles send me a PM and i can send you some good links :)

dawood

[captain]

"god bows to math".

[Ras-Tanu]

Glad to see this thread has remained so civil.

Ages ago I took Tae Kwon Do in KSA; Our teacher, a Lebanese Christian, knew that bowing might not be cool for some of us Muslims in class, so he had us bow normally, except we would keep our head up looking at him (instead of looking down when bending over at the hips). This made it so it wasn't the same type of bowing we do in prayer.

In my Wing Chun class now, there is no full bowing, just that palm/fist gesture with a little bend forward; I don't even consider that a bow, but more of a gesture like a handshake or salute.

RT

[yuanfen]

I have had Muslim students- there have been no problems
with the basic class beginning and closing greetings.

One Afro American Muslim married convert didn't want to do chi sao with a girl saying that it violated his ethics - but they were not compelled to do chi sao with each other- again no problem.

Once one fundamentalist Christian asked whether it was necessary to be a Buddhist to learn wing chun- he was satisfied with the answer- NO!

When I learned physics- it was immaterial to me what Galileo's relationship with the Catholic church was historically- or currently as far as status-excommunication or restoration! I dont jave to Catholic to appreciate Michelangelo. And if I am excluded from any religious center- the loss is not all mine..

I dont ask my students what their religious beliefs are and they dont ask for mine. Wing Chun provides the nexus. Period.

[dezhen2001]

i have to say - this has been one of the best threads even slightly connected to islam i have seen on this forum. it definately re-affirms my faith in folks who do wing chun :)

i think wing chun is adaptable - throughout the past it seems to have definately evolved to suit the needs of the people who practise it.

Also respect is respect even without a bow. Its there or it isnt.

With regards to the chi sau issue i hadnt really thought of that. i always understood that contact is allowed for specific circumstances (i mean there is absolutely no harm in it after all). Anyway i dont think a mugger or rapist is going to be bothered with protocol if they have targetted a muslim woman - so i think that side of training is vital. My soon to be missus (hopefully) is a 2nd dan in a GOOD tkd school and regularly kicks guys ass! :D

So i think it comes down to the person and their intention, as do most things in islam. traditionally its accomodating, stretching from morocco to china, with all different cultures and situations to adapt to. Like good wing chun if the principles are clear then it will be just fine :)

dawood

[swordsoul]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Once one fundamentalist Christian asked whether it was necessary to be a Buddhist to learn wing chun- he was satisfied with the answer- NO!

. [/B]



wow, that's hilarious! i was about to ask something about that actually-- wing chun and martial artists in general all seem to at least give a nod (almost always more to me) to the philosophy of Yin and Yang. I have seen some pretty outlandish stuff IMO from literature on how this is "a trick in the form of a fad for Satan to work his way into young minds" and stuff like that. Also, when i was bussing tables at a Frisch's on a Sunday morning, a man with a black t-shirt with a Yin/Yang symbol on the back of it with a big red circle and a slash trough that! I never thought i would see something like that, and as i was just forming my own buddhist beliefs, i was really feeling weird the rest of the day...

SOOOOOOooooo my point is: Has the Yin Yang symbol/philosophy/taoist religion ever been a problem with any students either? (not to hijack the post about islam, but why not broaden it to religion in general?) When i was teaching fencing, the gym teacher didn't like us doing the "sun salute" from yoga or ANY yoga because of "religious connotation." again i think intention is important there.

I had my first wing chun session saturday! (woo hoo!) and my sifu (wow i get to say "my sifu!!!") is a muslim. haven't learned any bowing or protocol such as that, but i highly doubt that there is much other than fist in open palm and a bow from the cat stance...

peaceloveunity
matt

[Laughing Cow]

Matt.

You can be either a practising Taoist, or you can be a Taoist that uses the Tao to explain things related to MA.
Same way there are people that follow/study the teachings the teachings of Buddha and there are practising Buddhists.

It sounds strange but makes perfect sense in the eatern mindset that something can be both Ying & Yang(-do & -Jutsu) to borrow an asian idea.

Many people that learned CMA or JMA never realised this and simply copied what they saw and thought was a requirement of the MA. Thus we got shrines and rituals in many Dojo even though the Teacher is neither Taoist, Shinto nor Buddhist.

Tao does not even mention gods.
Buddha was not a god he never created anything, healed anyone, never performed miracles, etc.

FYI, it is quiet common for people to follow rites and practices from multiple "religions" in Asia.
Some Japanese follow both Shinto & Buddhist doctrines, as those are not mutually exclusive as in Judeo-Christian religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) .

In Chen TJQ we use the tao/taiji a lot but we are not practising taoists.

Hope this is not too confusing.

[dezhen2001]

the idea of forces used to create many other things are also found in islam :)

dawood

[yuanfen]

Hi swordsoul- the yin yang symbol is older than taoism... there are conceptual equivalences in other systems of thought- Buddhism and Hinduism.
shakta- sakti in Indian philosophy. Even some American Indian tribes such as that of my late wife(Muscogee Creek) had antimonies of male/ female, darkness/ light and other balancing in their cosmology and metaphysics.
These equivalencies has helped me immensely in udnderstanding the depths in the structure and dynamics of wing chun.

In any case despite all the arguments on lists and our troubled world-religion and politics have played almost no conflictual roles
among my students- who have come from practically every faith-
Protestant( including Mormon, Jehovah's witness aprt from the better known varieties), Catholic, Muslim, Jewish, Bahai, Zoroastrian, Shinto, Buddhist, Unitarian, agnostic, atheist and practically evry ethnicity- Hispanic, Afro American, Arab, Persian, thai, cambodian, Chinese, Japanese,
Eoropean-
with apolofies to Kipling (The ballad of east and west)--

There is neither border, breed, gender or birth
When good wing chunners come face to face
though they come from the ends of the earth.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
the idea of forces used to create many other things are also found in islam :)

dawood

Ooh, I am pretty sure that there was an exchange of ideas between religions.

Look at christianity and see what was added in later on. (immaculate conception, etc.)
It is actually quiet interesting how world events and new ideas reshaped religions and translations of the original documents over the centuries.

BTW, just finished a Book about the egyptian "Book of the Dead", very interesting reading and I think I can see some connections to the later heaven/hell, judgement, etc in the Judeo/Christian beliefs.

BTW, the "Gita" prophesized many events in the Bible and christianity a few centuries BC.

Cheers.

P.S.: I don't practice/follow any religion/belief system, but I like to read up about them and speak to people that research them.

[dezhen2001]

greast post yuanfen :)

its actually interesting because before i came to islam, i really had to find out more about it because there are some relationships between things that i have experienced and found through my kung fu and qigong training, such as wuji to taiji, the 2 forms etc. But i found like you both said that they are already there, just in a different guise :)

i think martial arts even though influenced a lot by chinese religions/philosophies can be practised by anyone as they follow a core set of principles, which can be applied to most things in life.

imo its a very valuable skill.

dawood

[chen zhen]

A comment to one of the former posts: only 15% of the world's muslims are arabs. the rest lives in India/Pakistan, Indonesia, Central Africa and China(!)

[foolinthedeck]

GREAT POSTS!
i'm glad i started this thread, i'm glad i had the experience that got me thinking about it in the beginning.
respect to all
/@

ps.
is the /@ a bow or a salute? i heard that it signifies that you are against the new dynasty of qing/ming etc - not sure which, and was an underground 'secret' handshake type thing.

is a nod of the head a bow?
how low does a bow have to be before it is a prostration?

also, i remember reading somewhere that the western familiar action of raising eyebrows to say hi is considered offensive in other parts of the world - Polynesisa or Micronesia i think..

[yuanfen]

Chen Zen- India has the second largest number of Muslims- after
Indonesia.

Fooling the deck-- all sorts of things can be found offensive
by a dogmatist. Showing the bottom of the soles of a shoe towards someone can be offensive in areas that I know. Should the wing chun front kick not be performed? Some accomodation is part of human interaction.

[dezhen2001]

guess it comes down to principle or dogma... something that is adaptable to circumstance or something that is strictly adhered to and criticized if not. sounds a lot like kung fu ;)

dawood

[captain]

in the uk,when we all filled out our cocensus forms,enough
people placed jedi in the "what relgion" box for that to
become an official religion.so i wonder if any jedi actually
practice wck or any other martial arts.i worship money,but
i don't think that's the same.