Extreme loyalty and mediocre payoffs

[KC Elbows]

Well, got a couple of pm's in response to recent posts regarding weird schools and such, and it kind of amazes me how many people have had similar experiences with schools.

Doesn't it seem like there's a lot of schools that have extreme expectations for loyalty, supposedly with the payoff of super secret deadly stuff, but that many of these systems seem to have nothing in the way of skill or technique that other schools don't have?

I was checking out a competition, and behind me, I heard some guy talking about all these competitors, good or bad, and how they clearly weren't on the inside. Later, I saw this guys and his group behind the building, secretly practicing away from prying eyes, so I snooped a bit.

Apparently, on the inside, you learn to be neither good, nor bad, but simply mediocre. Wow, I'd be willing to guard that secret to the death. I mean, they were okay, playing push hands and doing their tai chi, but they obviously had only played push hands with their classmates, and so there were principles they just didn't understand. Later, I discovered that the guy who was sitting behind me mouthing off was the senior most student of his teacher.

Now, I know some people in schools where the extreme loyalty thing is paired with extreme roughness, and I respect that a little more, but I've yet to see a school with such expectations matched with technique and intensity of training that I couldn't find elsewhere, or better.

I mean, that being the case, it's paying to be part of a fraternity, right?:D

[ewallace]

You're just upset because you haven't learned the good stuff. Keep searching.

[dezhen2001]

i thought this thread was gonna be about you getting laid off at work KC! :D

dawood

[KC Elbows]

Hey, you never know. We're going through layoffs again, so it could happen. But thanks for bringing it up, Mr. Cheerypants.:D

[yenhoi]

I dunno about the super secret deadly randomness, but your teacher and classmates and training partners deserve a great amount of respect, and so do you, for putting the time in together day in and day out. Just like a good friend you go scuba diving with on a weekly basis or your drinking buddy, you wouldent go out and do things you knew would hurt or anger them - same deal here, its just there is the whole cult mentality and related 'click' mindsets that ****up MA schools and groups all over the place. Go visit the WC forum.

:eek:

[KC Elbows]

Oh, I agree that it's good to have a bond with your fellow class members.

As for wing chun, yeah, some of the guys who really get into that lineage war are frikkin silly.

[rubthebuddha]

wing chun people argue with themselves because it's easier to argue about the use of a bong sau with someone whose bong sau is at least similar to yours.

besides, wing chun is at the top of the mountain, and since everyone else is below on different points but still not as high up as us, we only have ourselves to argue with. :D



ah yes, even a moderator can troll. :D

[rubthebuddha]

that felt good. now for something more serious ...

loyalty to your sifu simply means loyalty to your sifu. loyalty does not require prejudice or arrogance -- those spawn off on their own. a good sifu will root out those behaviors, discourage them and remove those who continue with them.

a crummy sifu either won't recognize the behaviors or won't care.

an ******* sifu will encourage them.


i'm fortunate that mine cultivates the former and encourages us to be proud yet humble ... proud of what we have, but not arrogant about it outwardly.

[KC Elbows]

I'm mostly talking about extreme loyalty. I mean, loyalty is not any different in martial arts than elsewhere, it's just that some people think it should be.

For instance, some people would never disagree with one teacher I had about anything, because he had rank, so he was always right. That's extreme. It didn't help him or us in the long run.

As for Wing Chun people, I'm surprised they can agree on a common spelling for bong sau.

[Robinf]

loyalty to your sifu simply means loyalty to your sifu. loyalty does not require prejudice or arrogance -- those spawn off on their own. a good sifu will root out those behaviors, discourage them and remove those who continue with them.

Rub,
Well said!

[Budokan]

People who become fanatical about their loyalty tend to misunderstand -- and misrepresent -- what martial arts is truly about.

Nothing wrong with loyalty to a school or teacher. Except when it gets in the way of allowing a person to think for himself.

[Royal Dragon]

I think in the past, the "indoor" students got something the rest did not. Take Tai Tzu (Folk linaeges) for example. Tnye had the "Super secret" internal that was only taught to closed door seniors. well, after much research, I have finnaly concluded the "Secrets" were the substitution of internal body mechanics learned in the Taji Ruler exercises in place of the external ones. That's it. Same forms, just a new and more advanced way to do them.

The whole secret indoor/ outdoor thing is one reason, why the arts are so messed up. Maybe back in the day it ws nessasary, but today there is no reason to hold anything back.

[rubthebuddha]

Originally posted by KC Elbows
As for Wing Chun people, I'm surprised they can agree on a common spelling for bong sau.
there are those who spell it bong sao. :(


robin -- thanks. :)

[Guile]

THanks to the amount of information we get isnt most of the "secret" stuff known anyway?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Guile
THanks to the amount of information we get isnt most of the "secret" stuff known anyway?

Doesn't that depend on the style? Some styles aren't as well known nor widely practised, so their 'secret' stuff may still remain a secret.

[Royal Dragon]

Tai Tzu is not well known, and I was able to figure it ot. The super secret internal is just a body mechanics issue. anyone with Taiji, Hsing I and Bagua experiance can just plug those mechanics into the Tai Tzu external froms, and Wha'la, you got it.

[Guile]

:D