the what if's

[Ernie]

hey just thought i would put this out there for fellow wing chun guys that want to address the what if' [ what if ,i have to close the gap ,met a boxer,wrestler ,multiple attackers ,and so on]
just in case any one is interested a student of Paul Vunak , Robert kincaid is haveing some sunday workouts at the rose bowl in pasadena . attribute development some stick and knife sparring , p.i.a. and sensitivity drills , just a open work out session . we have some skilled boxers , bjj wing chun jkd people all working on the what if's and sharing information . this is just a chance forus to experience some real energy not just our fellow classmates simulating a jab or a shoot but guys that really pull it off , also you get to try things outside of the box and work on different skills it's open and loose friends asking and answering questions . if you have any interest email me mindzi@pacbell.net.

[wingchunalex]

sounds cool, i live far from there, but it would be great if you could relay your experiences back to the rest of us.

[PaulH]

Hi Alex,

Ernie is working right now so he won't be able to post until much later. I often got e-mails from Ernie urging me to attend these Sunday sessions with him but due to my schedule inflexibility I could not made it so far. I did managed to see some of the video clips of what Robert Kincaid taught with respect to knifefighting and how its skills can improve your eye sensitivity and hand speed for WC practitioners. It is quite a terrible beauty to see how he can slice you so many times as you try to hit him. I think this is a small part of what Ernie is talking about - how you can develop further your WC's hand speed, flexibility, and etc.
I'm sure there are so much more that I don't know at these interesting sessions. I let Ernie tell us more if he has the time.

Regards,

[Ernie]

Hey,
thanks for filling in paul
as for the question on shareing experiences , that's the funny thing about experiences you got to go through them your self that was the purpose of putting this little group thing together . i have sat back and listened to my wing chun brethern ask the same old questions over and over again , the what if's , and either they have no clue what to do or they give you the old well my sifu says hand me down answer . or the even worse that will never happen because my wing chun is so superior that i can walk on water and leap over buildings in a single bound . again usually from someone that never really tested anything beyond class and maybe beats up on his friends that have no skill , the only way to get these answers is to put your self through as many uncomfortable experiences as you possibly can , and the best approach i have seen is in the way some jkd people train , they address it in a progression , they start with a simple stress situation and the add to it and build up your mental and physical resisitance to it , now i'm not talking technique or theory '' this style that style stuff'' just progressive training that builds up your attributes and experiences . you see in the end it's al balance,speed power ,timing and adaptability , to flow with out tension mental or physical , to not be a slave to prerequisits , like my foot has to face this way and my hip has to be here and my wieght is to much on my big toe , and of cousre the attack will come in this fasion and then i'll do this!!! . i am a student of gary lam and those who know of him know he is one of the top wing chun men out there and he teachs more than i can ever thank him for but i have also had the privliage to train with great street fighters and have had to deal with my own what if's , i have found the answers through progression , nothing in a fight is certain except uncertainty , i just wanted open a door for those that might want to expose themselves to some of these possibilities . so the best advice i can give you is to make your own experiences,and don't live off anyone elses

[wingchunalex]

Thanks, do you have any advice on how to go about testing my skill out. I don't really have to time to train for MMA and I don't know if i want to risk stuff like knee injuries that can happen in those, so...

How might I go about finding ways to test myself out? do i just go to different local schools and ask to sparr? or even go full contact with their guys? What about sparring/full contact with grapplers, do i just put on a pair of glove and go at it? I don't feel like its okay for somone to let me do something like bring my elbow down on the back of their head or something like that, What if that's what my reaction is to something like shooting? What about using open hand strikes?

lots of what if's right. ;) .

how do i go about finding people to help me gage myself in weak areas for the most learning benifit of the two of us, and how do I go about raising these quesitons without seeming confrontational, crazy, like a "tough guy", or rude?

I do know some japanese jujitsu and bjj guys at college also. just thought i'd throw that out their. thanks. peace.

[Ernie]

but you study wing chun and have the magic chain punch cure for everything in all possiblities , ha sorry couldn't help myself . well this is were you get a easy answer but difficult at the same time . first you must find people you can train with this is a lot easier then you think they tend to pop up when you least expect it , second you must understand the concept of scientific progression and attribute development '' breaking this down will take alot of space so contact me on email if you want details '' the human mind and body learns best in stages start ,middle and end . it could be a kick a punch a counter whatever the process is the same . you break each action up and train it seperatly then put it back together again this is the progression . now in dealing with fighters or possible lines of attack , you can use the same process lets take a boxer for a point of reference . first he feeds you a steedy diet of jabs not trying to take your head of or be tricky with speed or broken rythem just good clean energy and you work counter or entry what ever works for you or combination of things no big deal whats important is you are isolating the action to develop your skill timing distance and what not , as time goes by let him turn the steam up just the jab for now when you feel comfortable and have a decent consistancy rate on your return action . then you add in the rear cross and work off that same fashion a progression finally after you have grown fairly comfortable he get to throw what ever . by isolating and breaking things down you gain skill much faster and eliminate the ego and getting hurt process . this approach works with whatever kicks punches the shoot all the same . what your developing is your balance timing coordination relaxed mind and body , speed and power last on the list and you get more comfortable facing different opponents . you learn to read and hacve eyesensitivity something lacking big time in our wing chun training . you are also forced to move in ways you may not be comfortable with which often happens in real fights , you get better shifting in and out of your structure adapting as things change ''what till you train multiple opponents '' talk about need for more agile foot work. any way that is a quick formula and sorry about the spelling but it's late and i just got back from training need fooooood

[TjD]

not to be an *******... but paragraphs are good :) trying to tackle one LONG bunch of sentences is tough for some of us slower-minded folk :D

as to chain punches, using them is mediocre wing chun. chain punches will not end a fight. wing chun will :D

when you 'fight' with wing chun, there are no "what if"s. you just let it fly. Thinking about what ifs will slow you down. closest weapon, closest target - simple as that. something in your way? break throught it if you have structure to beat it, redirect it if you dont. maximum power generation when you reach the target.

in wing chun, things are not broken down into seperate applications as your last post seems to imply. you recieve something and you react with your chi sau skills. as has been posted many many times on this forum - there are no techniques in wing chun.

eye sensitivity is not lacking in wing chun, the problem is most practicioners dont spend much time working at a level above doing chi sau. chi sau, chi gerk, entering and free sparring all must be worked in a progression. if someone has full wing chun training, a lack of eye sensitivity will not be an issue.

i do agree that people do need to train with other people outside their art, if not the art will stagnate and you will not know if it really works. unfortunately it seems you have some misconceptions about wing chun.

[Ernie]

no misconception just a realist and the king of the run on sentence
and by far the oppisite of what you think i only talk about things i can do and pull off with cositancy and i don't ever allow wing chun or what ever you call it to be greater than me as a individual .it is simply a tool for close quarter sensitivity , and by no means the end all to human combat that is wayyyyy to narrow minded .
by not advanceing training methods menttal and physical you leave the art in the dark ages , and by just reciteing the same old tired doctrine you disrespect those that tested it and evolved it in the past like vultures feed off the dead carcass of the true fighters .
but some people need to validate themselves ,you know by the shirt ,join the club learn the secret hand shake .
instead of going out there and swimming in uncomfortable waters .
you see most people just like to state the obvious like it's some secret that no one know's and like just reciteing the mystic words over and over again will give the answer '' fight the man not the hands ,attack his center of mass blah blah blah and so on been hearing it and testing it for years partner and guess what you really don't get it until you face things that make you question yourself and gain confidence in the eye of the un comman. but most people fear addressing there weakness.
again searching for some type of validatin . i prefer to not hide under the skirt of wing chun strength but study it's weakness and embrace it , as well as the human facter .
i have so many wing chun people talk that great theoretical game but get infront of some one with good mobility ,elevation changes or fakes and eat there words .
does this mean that the theory is incorrect no but the training methods didn't address that issue correctly .
i have no insecurity so blast away but don't speak on something until you have faced all the possibilties out there and come back with your theories and head intact .
until then your just echoing some one elses accomplishments and not your own .
have you tried training in a progressive fashion against people of all shapes and styles .
until you have walked the walk , then think before you speak. if you have and you really gained nothing from it . then perhaps your just special and far superior to the rest of us average dopes . but hey to each there own i'll keep doing what i'm and doing and you keep doping what your doing and i wish you good luck . oops more run on sentences :D
and by the way wing chun will not end the fight the more prepared man will.

[PaulH]

Hi TJD,

I hope you don't mind me jumping in this conversation. The Ernie that I know always write in a long paragraph every single ideas that he has under the sun in all my correspondences with him. It would be hard to break his old lifetime habit now.

You point out also that he seems to have misconceptions of how WC is all about. It's a moot point for what he talks is really more on WC training methodology - the most efficient and effective way to train WC skills. Ernie practices weekly with many different professional martial artists. By training with these guys often, he notices that they seem to get quicker results than their WC counterparts on their attributes enhancement and skills development given the same spent amount of time and efforts. If I understand him correctly he is advocating the use of sport training science to speed up the WC training process in this post from his unique perspective and experience with these athletes.

For example, I found in his previous post that he seems to advocate the following principles taken from the science of the martial arts training:

1. The training factor's pyramid -the physical, technical, tactical,
and psychological preparations
2. Principle of progressive overload
3. Principle of specificity
4. Principle of variability
5. Principle of individual response

In the end the real question is do they work for him? Watching him over the years and see with my own eyes such amazing and rapid physical attributes and WC skills development from him. I can honestly say that somewhere along the line I have missed his train heading toward that beautiful WC paradise. His sifu is very pround of him and so would I be if only I can have those wonderful WC skills of his.

Regards,

[Ernie]

paul,
don't you ever sleep ,kind words my friend , considering we come from different sifu's and different approachs . but it's o'k' to dis agree people don't like to have there foundation questioned it's like religion it makes them un easy.
and what is right for one the other will say it's not even if you prove scientificly and with consistancy.
logic and emotion often take oppisite roads . lets get toghether and work out soon so we can test some more concepts and give your sifu and si hing my respect and good wishes .

[TjD]

Originally posted by Ernie
no misconception just a realist and the king of the run on sentence
and by far the oppisite of what you think i only talk about things i can do and pull off with cositancy and i don't ever allow wing chun or what ever you call it to be greater than me as a individual .it is simply a tool for close quarter sensitivity , and by no means the end all to human combat that is wayyyyy to narrow minded .



those paragraphs rocked, thanks so much :D made the post a whole easier to comprehend. and you kick ass for not blowing up in my face when i was a **** :D

i still have to argue with this "close quarter sensitivity." good wing chun offers much more than just that. personally, i think it allows us to find the optimum usage of the human body.

as to what you say about testing your wing chun against other styles i agree 100%. this is the point i think i've reached in my training. currently i'm looking for a group of people to spar/fight what have you with in the albany, NY area. if you know anyone please let me know :D i want to test my wing chun out against other styles and martial artists very badly. what good is my wing chun if i've never tested it? if i'm ever to be a sifu and go out there without having ever tested my stuff and knowing it works, what use am i? from my experience in the kwoon it seems to work, but i will not accept that just on blind faith and from only testing it on other wing chun guys and the wooden dummy.

i think the difference is i see wing chun offering me all i'll ever need. i just need to bring my skill in wing chun to that point. however, this does involve much testing and practicing against practicioners of other styles to get my wing chun perfect (i wish it could get there).

it seems you don't think wing chun has everything your looking for.

[Ernie]

dude,
i would never blow up in some ones face for a different point od . we all walk different roads in life that leed to different conclusions.that's the beauty ,those differences alows to look beyond our personal knowledge and grow through the possibilities offered by others,
i think the difference is i see wing chun offering me all i'll ever need. i just need to bring my skill in wing chun to that point.
now your on to some thing ,how to bring your skills up in a intelligent progressive fashion that does put your health and well being at constant risk. if all you do is hard core it and blast on every person you train with , your body will be wrecked in a few years if not sooner and you will looking over your shoulder for the rest of your life.
you will also lose the oppertunity to build bonds and lasting frienships with people that practice other styles, wing chun tends to give a arrogant mindset , and we try to convert others or prove how much more suitible our art is for street fighting , i was there and spent a few years shutting people down but also pushing away friends and almost looseing a few . but now i have learned to work out with them testing theories and concepts , this way we both grow
if you just jump in a ring with a talented boxer, you and most wing chun people ''sifu's included '' will get there ego's crushed . i mean a real boxer no a guy that thinks he is . they got more experience under pressure better timing and understand how to manipulte distance to defuse a powerful attack. and they can hit from all angles , that's why it's important to work off theguys but in a progressive fashion were you have time to learn and train they will offer you all possible lines of attack ''except for the lowline'' and all types of rythem. if you can get relaxed infront of a guy with blinding speed and power and the ability to fake and fade with footwork then joe blow on the street will be a cakewalk.''this is part of the stess overload factor in the progression''
my first revelation was early on in my wing chun training as i tried to intercept a tight right cross with the tradional tan da , as i was lying on my back looking up i was like wow , i allways stop the guys in class like this what just happened
now i understand what happened as now i can pull these things of , i didn't have timing and distance or the ability to adjust his attack in time , you see the wing chun hands without proper skill's and atributes are just mechnical poses.
this set me on my path to look for the weakness and the universal truths, timing adjustability ,speed power , control of distance and footwork , the ability to read and feel with your eyes , to pick up a persons emotion , these things allow you to apply your wing chun with consistancy.
this has caused me to step out of my usual wing chun training format and observe how others develop these skills , there is a world of information out there you can use to bring out the real potential in wing chun better yet in yourself . i'm still trying and some say i'm getting better but work with jkd guys and boxers that will feed me humble pie all the time , but there pro's i'm not , so it goes with the territory.
as far as wing chun haveall you need to maximize your bodies potential , i strongly dis agree it is just offering you a structual grounded power source , pull the rug out from under your peet bye bye power source ''that's why most wing chun people feel uncomfortable on the ground it's like kriptonite ''
there are many power sources avalible to the human form ,each art claims there's is the best , i feel this a limited way of thinking but that's just me
wing chun in theory and concept does plant the see to reach your full potential but not until you get past it's robotic stages and start to flow with a more natural posture . my sifu is a very good example of this if you ever see him on tape you will no what i mean. as for my sifu even he disagree's on the extremes i take my training to but he does incourge me to work out tith others to gain experience .
any way good luck in your advancements .