Trapping

[Ben Thompson]

In my past few years of studing JKD I'd have to say the trapping is one of, if not the most, valuable thing I have come to understand.

I find it very effective, partly because few people know of it, and most people learn the "block and strike" method of counterattack, which can be easily overcome by even the most mediocre level of hand immobilization.

So my question is, how valuable do you people feel trapping is, and are there any other forms of hand trapping besides the widely taught: Pak Sao, Lop Sao, Jut Sao, Joa Soa, and Huen Soa?

Anyones insight would be much appreciated.:D

[pseudoswitch]

Hi Ben,

I would have to agree with you regarding the usefulness of trapping, being a wing chun player :) There are many other hand techniques besides the ones you mentioned in wing chun, have you ever trained in it? I think it definatley helps if one trains in wing chun before moving on to JKD. Supplimenting JKD with wing chun on the other hand, might be problematic with regards footwork and structure.

[Ben Thompson]

So far I have only tried learning trapping from books and videos, then I see if they work for me during sparring.

Is there such a thing as trapping with the legs in Wing Chun? I do this while trapping with my hands and push my opponents leg back, and or manipulate his knee joint with my shin. I have found this to be most effective against opponents with low mobility.

[Black Jack]

I think in some schools you can find trapping to become superfluous. A lot of arts use trapping or elements thereof. Kali, Silat, Kun Tao, to name just a very, very few.

Trapping just means to hold long enough to hit.

[fa_jing]

Huen sao and Jou sow are not traps, they are evasive/circular hand movements.

Lan sao (bar arm) and inside Lop Sao are good ones.

[yenhoi]

Huen sau can be a trap! Cmon.

A good example of a leg trap is stepping on your opponents foot,

Like BJ said, many arts train what would be considered trapping, nearly all "arts" IMO.

Is there such a thing as trapping with the legs in Wing Chun?

Sure. Most WCK systems teach "chi gerk" after you get familiar with "chi sau." Same Tan, bong, and fook structures , just with your legs.

A good place on the net to learn about leg and foot sectoring would be the many many Judo sites, such as www.judoinfo.com

:eek:

[fa_jing]

how huen sao trap you say?

we have a huen/rear and tan/front double block, but that's still not a trap

against a wrist grab you can immobilize his fingers with your free hand, and huen sao the grabbed hand around and bend his wrist at an incredibly uncomfortable angle, but the huen sao just sets up what will be a joint lock, with a downward motion.

don't see it :confused:

[fa_jing]

OTOH, with the huen sao you can move his arm around, so that all he can do is retract it example you jom sao then flow around into a huen sao - controlling the movement of his arm, I guess that could be considered a trap but I don't think of it that way - I think of a trap as a pin or a grab. Otherwise, you'd have to include gwaat sao (wiping block) as a trap.

[yenhoi]

Anytime you restrict/control the movement/motion of your opponents hands/arms/shoulders/hips/knees/shin/ankle/feet, you are trapping, or whatever you want to call it, once your in control of the obstacle, you win (strike!)

Strickly WCK wise, in the 3rd form there is a long arm clear to fook to huen to pak sequence that easily illustrates the trapping power of a huen, even though I guess you are acually 'using' a pak or gum to actually do the 'pin.'

...and gwaat sau should be considered a trap, both your arms are above his and you are feeding on his centerline and face.

:eek:

[JKogas]

Have you guys practiced trapping against someone skilled in clinching? Do you see the two as separate? What are your views regarding this?

-John

[yenhoi]

Do you see the two as separate?

Not really, much like the difference between a hammer fist and a cross. Trapping and clinching are the same range.

Different 'techniques.'



:eek:

[JKogas]

I think of trapping as being just a TINY bit further out than clinching. That's at least in the "classical" sense of the word (reference point). Trapping (though not always) is almost an eblow's length from your opponent, where clinching (as if you have an underhook) is chest to chest with almost NO space between you.

Trapping (as in COMPOUND trapping) and the wrestling clinch are two different animals (if the trapping is trained classically). Many people still practice trapping in the classical sense while others practice clinching from the wrestling perspective. This is the difference that I'm referring to.

Any thoughts?

-John

[fa_jing]

I think of clinching as having at least one hand in contact with his body, or else my shoulder in contact with his body. Trapping is usually hand to arm contact. Trapping both arms with my two arms/hands almost always leads to a clinch, for me.

[yenhoi]

If you want to define trapping and clinching like that then sure, they are seperate, I dont break down range into that small of categories in my training or with my training partners. Personally I train what some would call refrence point trapping as well as what you described as clinching. I probably put more 'time in' on the clinch work since all ranges lead to clinch, wether or not I make pit stops at the other ranges, whatever you want to label them. You dont have to be in the clinch (have a overhook or underhook or both) to be in clinch range.

:eek:

[yenhoi]

Also, I dont consider 'trapping' to be limited to the opponents arms/hands/elbows/whatnot. Clinch work as well has many lower body and other-body elements to it.

:eek:

[JKogas]

I agree completely! Great posts.


-John

[LEGEND]

"Have you guys practiced trapping against someone skilled in clinching? Do you see the two as separate? What are your views regarding this?"

1.) Yes...but it never worked...u do need a certain amount of space to pull a trap/strike off. You're too close body to body...u won't get proper leverage to strike...unless u got 1 inch punch power. In a clinch...once an opponent has control of a neck or body...u're going to be yanked around quite a bit. So to counter that...learn how to clinch also.
2.) I do see the 2 as separate. I have personally used pak sao, garn sao and jut sao in sparring. This occurs when my partner would leave and over extended strike out there. Then u can sidestep and pak/jut or come in and pak/jut. Depending on SPACE you can strike or use the TRAP to CLINCH for knees, headbutts, elbows or takedowns( whatever your preference ).
3.) Having trained with WING CHUN and JKD type traps...I do prefer the WING CHUN traps...to me JKD is much more forward and aggressive BUTTTTTTTT...I can feel that most WING CHUN guys have more pull/push/control in their TRAP. While JKD guys seem more concern with the CLINCH and TERMINATION weapons( headbutts etc... ).

[fa_jing]

" This occurs when my partner would leave and over extended strike out there"

You can also use the traps against the strike *on the way out*, *as they are extending*

This is good and can work even against some opponents who make a point of retracting all of their strikes quickly.

[yenhoi]

we practice entrys, traps, strikes, takedowns etc vs strikes, entrys, traps, takesdowns:

at extension
during extension
during retraction
before (during "preparation")

:eek:

[Shuul Vis]

There are alot of different trapping movements than those that you listed but here are some ideas that can supplement your trapping.

1. Excell in your footwork, it is what will keep you in actual trapping range and not reaching too far just to trap limbs and overextending yourself as a result. Really work on sticking to your opponent for correct distance.

2. Realize the importance of what i said above. Dont chase the hands. Those who love trapping, myself included, WILL tend to chase the hands unless they master footwork to maintain the proper trapping distance. Try using trapping techniques against someone without any training. They panic, tense up and usually try to retreat from your hands. So you can either continue to try and trap, which people who love trapping tend to do, and over extend yourself effectively making your techniques less efficient, or you can use strong footwork to keep your root within proper range.

[jmdrake]

Hello,

When working in the clinch against a cousin of mine that does MT I pulled off a double jut sao with headbutt. Wokred like a charm.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[SifuLMDII]

Hello Everyone!

Just like with any other area of training, trapping must be put into the proper perspective to be understood correctly. Trapping is very useful in combative situations! So is energy/sensitivity detection abilities! And no, of course you don't start a fight like Lee and O'Hara in "Enter The Dragon" in the highline outer wrist engaged position! I have been in countless fights, and working as a bouncer two or three nights a week, I still get into conflicts on a fairly regular basis!

I have on many occasions used trapping in live hand to hand combat situations, where no movements were planned, and nothing about the situation could be pre-determined! It is the energy/sensitivity drills that get you to the point where trapping just happens. However, if trained properly you will only use trapping when it is absolutely necessary.

What determines that necessity? Many elements of a fight come into play in determining whether trapping is necessary. One of the main things often overlooked by many is the difference in attributes between yourself and a potential opponent. Some people are, for lack of a better term, "defense specialists". In other words, they have very fast hands, but mostly use the hands to defend against incoming attacks. It is often hard to hit one of these "defense specialists", or blockers as they are also called, with a single direct attack (SDA) or attack by combination (ABC). They do not react to attack by drawing (ABD), as they are waiting on the attack. Therefore, hand immobilization attack (HIA) or progressive indirect attack (PIA) are the best ways to deal with them! This is just one example of the practical use of trapping. There are many more!

True trapping, as I teach it anyway, involves serious injury to the opponent just from the trap itself! In other words, a pak sao that breaks ribs or a lop sao that causes whiplash! This is real trapping! Too many people get caught up in this "pattycake" BS that some call trapping, therefore they never have the opportunity to experience REAL TRAPPING as it should be taught! Trapping as I teach it is (1) simple, (2)direct and (3) non-classical, therefore it fits all three guidelines for Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do! Learn to trap correctly and whole new doors will be opened for you! As long as your traps are passive and of the "pattycake" variety, they serve no real purpose!

[yuanfen]

Dont chase the hands. Those who love trapping, myself included, WILL tend to chase the hands unless they master footwork to maintain the proper trapping distance
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With the right training- one can trap at different distances.
Not necessarily a fixed trapping distance.
Also- one can make mistakes in chasing hands even without footwork.

[LEGEND]

SIFU DAVIS made a good comment. You guys better work on your arms pull and push motion and be prepared for tons of IRON PALMING. OUCH.

[Void Boxing]

Sifu davis - what drills would you recommend to someone who is looking to develop simple, direct and economical expressions of trapping?.....

[SifuLMDII]

Much work goes into the development of effective trapping skill, so many Jeet Kune Do practitioners prefer to avoid this training. These are usually the ones that make statements such as “trapping doesn’t work” or “you don’t need trapping!” The truth of the matter is that they are too lazy to learn to trap properly, or just aren’t willing to put in the time to develop effective trapping tools! I look at it like this: Why would Bruce Lee name one of his five ways of attack hand immobilization attack if he didn’t feel that there was a need for trapping in Jeet Kune Do? He wouldn’t! Therefore it is necessary!

Those practitioners who say that you don’t need trapping often use the argument that Bruce Lee didn’t use or teach trapping toward the end of his teaching career. For trapping to be necessary, the opponent must be able to obstruct the line that you are attacking. Bruce Lee’s skill was at a level where no one could obstruct that line. If you were that fast, why would you need to trap? There would be nothing to trap because you would always land a clean hit! How many of us can say that we can do that, EVERY TIME! I know that I can’t! Therefore, trapping is a very necessary skill and an extremely important part of our training process! And besides, if and when Bruce Lee needed to trap, don’t think for a second that the trap wouldn’t be there! It was well ingrained into his neuromuscular response system!

I have always taught my students that there are three main elements necessary for the development of effective trapping skills. They are: (1) reference point trapping, (2) energy/sensitivity training and (3) mook jong training. Reference point trapping teaches the mechanics of trapping, or the “how.” Energy/sensitivity training teaches the ability to sense energies and know which trap to use in certain situations. In other words the “when” of trapping. Mook jong training teaches you to economize your structure and puts the power into your trapping techniques.

These elements combined lead to a high level of contact reflex skill. You must be able to respond on contact with an opponent’s offensive or defensive energy with the correct movement. There are many drills that train you to respond quickly and efficiently to certain movements. Those who say that you don’t need trapping definitely have not developed this skill, and truly don’t have a clue as to the advantages of developing proficient trapping skills!

The best way to train the actual mechanics of trapping is what is referred to as reference point trapping drills. The reference point is the exact point where contact first occurs with an opponent. Reference points can be high or low. There are single arm reference points and double arm reference points. Single arm reference points usually occur when you attack and the opponent’s defensive movement contacts your attacking limb. Double arm reference points usually occur when the opponent tries to grab you with both hands, or when you execute a trap and your strike is met with an obstruction on the line you are attacking. There are many reference points possible. These reference points are also referred to as positions of engagement, as this is where you first engage the opponent’s energy.

Although most of the time Jeet Kune Do practitioners train out of the normal bai jong (on-guard) position, when in trapping situations, the bai jong used during the Seattle period is often used. The reason for this is that the Seattle bai jong emphasizes a leg check using your lead leg, and weight is freed up off the lead leg so that you can react quickly to any attempted leg maneuver from the opponent. In this stance, the lead leg acts as a sensor. The weight distribution here is 60/40 or 70/30, with most of the weight being on the rear leg. With light contact against the opponent’s lead leg, you can pick up on it immediately if they should attempt a kick or if they should suddenly try to sweep you. This is the basic fighting stance from Jun Fan Gung Fu.