Forearm conditioning

[African Tiger]

Ok, so no one had an answer for my dual Tai Chi Sword info, but I wonder if someone knows about this?

Someone was telling me about a way to condition your foremarms by tapping acupressure points with a length of wires taped together. We were talking about "The Tao of Sexology" at the time, but somehow I don't think forearm conditioning would be in that particular book.... :D

So, and I've asked Sifu Abel already, anyone know anything about this? I think it's part of Iron Body training, but again I'm not 100% sure. So if you have a link, please post it.

Thanks!

[joedoe]

Never heard of using a bunch of wires. Heard of using a cane, a bunch of chopsticks, newspapers etc. but never a bunch of wires. I guess you learn something new every day :)

We use a conditioning exercise similar to 3 start knocking. I personally prefer partnered techniques over using something to hit your arms.

[Laughing Cow]

I learned a short 2-man form for forearm conditioning.
This was followed by a 2-man forearm and shin conditioning form.

Like joedoe I prefer partnered techniques.

In this method you can also train distance, timing, stepping, etc.
Kinda like dummy training, but a bit more versatile.

[joedoe]

LC, what style do you do? Or have I asked you this before?

[Laughing Cow]

Joedoe.

At the moment Chen TJQ, but I have studied a few styles on and off.

Among that was a form of Sun TJQ.

Cheers.

[Vapour]

Tapping acupuncture point is definitely part of Iron Shirts Neigon. Not sure about wire though.

[Former castleva]

Weights,with specific exercises.

[Oso]

joedoe, LC

we do a 3 star knocking drill for conditioning forearms as well.
we start static then add footwork movements.

I usually teach this in the first couple of classes as it makes new people feel like they are "doing kung fu'' right away: from their perspective they are punching, blocking and moving around in a 'kung fu stance' right away. which they are, they just don't realize the importance of the basic stuff yet. I have a jow from a recipe my sifu has that doesn't have the poisenous stuff in it so we don't have to worry about open cuts and abrasions. so, they get to bash their arms and then put some stinky stuff on that stains their arms. :D kinda cheesy I know BUT they are doing good training and feeling good about it and the more they feel good about it the better chance they stick.

3-star knocking is also the 3rd 'level' of the iron palm I know but it is against a tree or a wooden dummy.

I also use some 2 man drills for conditioning other body parts (ribs, legs, neck) that I learned from my mantis system. they are for later on as they are pretty darn painful.

[Marky]

African Tiger,

Wire bundles are an option for Iron Body/Muscle and Tendon Changing. However, it's considered to be one of the "deeper" treatments (so it will stimulate the deep acupressure points), and you should start with a more "shallow" treatment, like soft hitting with a cane/rattan stick. Once you can do that as hard as you want, moving on to wire bundles is an option. You COULD start with wire bundles, but you CAN cause a lot of damage to your skin and muscles. Nothing permanent, but you'll need to put off conditioning for a while, which partially negates the conditioning you've already done.

[Water Dragon]

Never heard of wires. We do two man arm banging, and my teacher used to bang his arms against steel poles. I'm not wild enough to do that my self.

But you can get into a horse and bang your arms together. Circle your arms like your turning a huge steering wheel and bang them together when they meet. If it hurts real bad, you're doing it right. Don't forget to jow up and massage your arms when you're done. I'll do it for about 25 reps.

[Oso]

Remember that repetition is more important than force as you are trying to excite the molecules in the bone.

Good advice for beginners.:D

[Black Jack]

Forearm roller-A dole rod with a rope that can be tied to free-weight plates. Roll it up and roll it down. Burns. My fav.

Behind the Back Barbell Curls- Hits deep into the meat of the forearm.

Dumbell Curls and Extensions-To hit both sides

Hammer Curls-Hits them from a different angle

Dumbell Wrist Twist-Another Angle

Partner Training

[CrippledAvenger]

Hey Black Jack, care to elaborate on those excercizes a bit? They sound interesting.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Black Jack
Forearm roller-A dole rod with a rope that can be tied to free-weight plates. Roll it up and roll it down. Burns. My fav.

Behind the Back Barbell Curls- Hits deep into the meat of the forearm.

Dumbell Curls and Extensions-To hit both sides

Hammer Curls-Hits them from a different angle

Dumbell Wrist Twist-Another Angle

Partner Training

Hammer curls and forearm tolls are my faves. Never seen or tried a behind the back barbell curl. I hate twists and dumbell curls/extensions - they bore me - but I do them anyway.

I used to do two man arm banging when I was in longfist, but now that I'm grappling, I do solo arm banging or against a pole. when using the pole, I use a nice moving arm banging drill that WD showed me.

[Oso]

seven, did you find the 2 man arm banging usefull?

if you did, could you not sway any of your training partners to try it?

I have a steel I beam in the middle of the room I teach in. I will strike it every class w/ square fist and back fist but that's about the extent of my 1 man hand/arm conditioning at this point. I'll be ok with that until I get the student who doesn't wince when I do 3 star with them. Then I reckon I'll have to do another round of iron palm training.

[SevenStar]

Yeah, I definitely got benefit from it - I haven't asked the guys to try it. Most of them have either a muay thai or a TMA background though, so they'd probably be open to it. They all actively compete though, and I can't really see a case for how 3 star would help in competitions. The ones that do MMA may be interested though.

[Oso]

I agree that is wouldn't really help competition. The MT guys are probably tough enough.:) just curious.

[David Jamieson]

also, mook jong training and forearm ring training will condition the forearms. making them tougher.

making them stronger through lifting won't necessarily increase their ability to serve as defensive bridges. The bridge has to withstand and prevail over the incoming strike.

you can strike the arms with a bundle of chopsticks, do 3 star blocking against an inanimate object, perform striking sets while wearing the iron or brass rings, do a lot of sau training on the dummy. You can also tap hit your arms all over using only your fists.

all these things will build up your ability to withstand the neuralgia (pain) associated with blocking or striking with the forearm.

cheers

[Oso]

KL,
I would say that the more muscle mass you have, the more impact you can take. The muscles will surely bruise but they will protect the bones and nerves. I'm not sure but I would also say that the tendons will get stronger and thicker as well, contributing to the ability to overall protection of the bonesand nerves.

So, a combination of conditioning and strengthening through classical means or modern weight training can only benefit you.

[David Jamieson]

oso- agreed.

my point was to not rely on lifting alone to toughen the forearms.
force needs to be applied for a well rounded conditioning.

lengthening and strengthening of tendons can actually be hampered by lifting in many cases when the lifts are not designed to do that.

cheers

[Oso]

hmmm...

wouldn't lengthening and strengthening be somewhat contradictory pursuits?

I don't know, myself.

just tossing the thought around...I would say that you would need to go through different periods of training where you would be doing one, then the other. Say, 6-8 weeks of strengthening then 6-8 weeks of lengthening. It just seems like trying to do both at the same time would not get you as great a gain in either.


oh, well...food for thought...off to shorten my tendons:)

[Black Jack]

Forearm rolls are great because you are in constant movement. They also work your hand muscles because of the shifting of the dole rod. They are easy to make and a lot of good gyms may have one sitting around.

Behind the Back Forearm Barbell curls are fun because you can get the extra boost from your calfs to curl up the weight when you hit failure. Lets you dig a little deeper.

I think the best bet is to combine weights with impact forearm training. You can even do it light on a post/pell or a small tree. Just keep it light at first and use common sense.

If I was forced to just pick one for conditioning though I would go with the weights as it gives you the increase in physical strength. Russian Kettlebell excersices use a combo of impact conditioning and lifting. They have a move called the flip where you use the handle to flip the round weighted ball onto the back of your forearm. Getting both impact and weight training.

[African Tiger]

great advice - I will try several of the methods you've posted.

But here's what I'm after, and Sifu Abel thinks I'm crazy. I'm aware that many of my Italian breathern love using Louisville Sluggers in street fights. Well, I'm sure that other ethnicities use 'em as well, but what I'd seriously like to do is break an incoming baseball bat with my forearms - you know, just the thing to intimidate the "user" into thinking, "You know, this crazy N....r might not be worth ****ing with. After all, he just shattered a baseball bat with his bare arms."

So outside of conditioning the Japanese way and DESTROYING my forearms with hard training, is my endeavor something that can only be achieved through Iron Body? Has anyone here been able to perform such a feat? And if so, how long did it take to achieve?

[Oso]

wouldn't it be easier to use something of a higher density...like a crowbar?

and lead is real dense, too.

or even just not being there at all if possible.

I think though that, despite legends of feats such as that, the point of the conditioning is to lesten the effects of hard blows that you are deflecting. If you wanted to block the bat and break it you would have to train to do that specifically.

good luck in your endeavor.

[Water Dragon]

As far as strengthening goes, brick holding works well too. Get two, five pound weights or bricks. I like the fat plastic weights because they train your actual grip more. Hold both arms in front of you, extended as muach as possible. Mentally sink the shoulders and elbows. (don't tense) Your holding a weight in each hand with your fingers down. flex your wrist so that you pull the weights up, parallel to the ground. repeat about 100 times a day. Do it in a low horse stance for kicks. It's good for your grip.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by African Tiger
you know, just the thing to intimidate the "user" into thinking, "You know, this crazy N....r might not be worth ****ing with. After all, he just shattered a baseball bat with his bare arms."


:D

That's the funniest thing I've read in ages!

In a similar vein, a guy in a bar got stroppy with me one night and, after some verbal tennis, he swung a pool cue at me. He was holding the thin end and swung the fat end at my head. I didn't really think about it and just blocked with my forearm. The cue snapped in half over my arm.

Cool as a cucumber, without even a wince, I said, "You sure you want to carry on with this, punk?"

He ran away like a little girl. As soon as he was out of sight I howled and frantically rubbed my throbbing forearm. I got a small bruise, but after a couple of minutes of intensive rubbing and swearing it was fine. Only the years of conditioning enabled that, I guess.

:)

[joedoe]

Nice one Serp :D

Gotta say, wanting to be able to break a baseball bat with your forearm is pretty ambitious. Unless you are able to make contact closer to the handle it would be pretty hard to break it at the thick end.

My advice would be to give up that particular idea :)

[Oso]

sometimes we have 'brick night'.

I've made every one get a set of bricks, the concrete landscaping type vs. the red clay type that chip a lot.

We do a whole series of push ups with them:

flat
short edge up
long edge up
flat and explode up and clap them together, but softly so they don't break (control).

and any thing else I can think of.

then we do stance training holding them out at arms length.

then forms, of course just using the gross arm movements, and slowly since the grip is starting to go at this point. Everyone has to do each form they know once through.

bricks are fun.:cool:

lol @ serpent.

[Laughing Cow]

In addition do the Horse stance while standing on 2 bricks (red ones are fine).

:D

[Water Dragon]

Front Stance with Body Slanted. There is a straight line from the head to the heel of the back foot. Ideally you should hold a forty five degree angle. Extend the back-leg side hand out, palm up, and make a hook hand with your fingers. Extend the lead leg side backward, palm up, make a hook hand. put the brick in each hand. curl the wrists up and down 100 times.

[African Tiger]

Yeah, that was some funny ****, Serpent. True 80's action film dialogue!

[Oso]

Front Stance with Body Slanted. There is a straight line from the head to the heel of the back foot. Ideally you should hold a forty five degree angle. Extend the back-leg side hand out, palm up, and make a hook hand with your fingers. Extend the lead leg side backward, palm up, make a hook hand. put the brick in each hand. curl the wrists up and down 100 times.

cool and ouch at the same time.

[Serpent]

Hey Oso, I dig your brick workout idea. Might try some of that stuff!

[Oso]

I'll brick walk on the bagua circle sometimes, too.

dang, I should patent a brick for martial training.

just need to get a good marketer and I could be selling 37 cent bricks for 4.95.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by African Tiger
Yeah, that was some funny ****, Serpent. True 80's action film dialogue!

LOL. There's never a camera running when you really need one, huh! :)

[Oso]

when you go to do the long end up pushup be carefull with your shoulders. If you try to touch your chest to the floor that's about 8" further you have to go and can really stretch you out wrong if you aren't carefull.

I think I lost a student or two the last time I started class this way.:rolleyes:

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Oso
I'll brick walk on the bagua circle sometimes, too.

dang, I should patent a brick for martial training.

just need to get a good marketer and I could be selling 37 cent bricks for 4.95.

Just get a regular brick and dip it in a rubber coating (like those little dumbbells you can get) and then have a logo printed on the side. Voila, a 37c brick for at least $19.95.

If it works for TaeBo....

[joedoe]

Brick training is the sh!t. Try doing limited sparring on them (one person attacks, the other defends, limited number of attacks). Great fun.

[Serpent]

Do you hit the opponent with bricks?!

;)

[Oso]

Brick training is the sh!t. Try doing limited sparring on them (one person attacks, the other defends, limited number of attacks). Great fun.

SEE, there's already a demand.





Do you hit the opponent with bricks?!

Only in advanced sparring. But, you have to pick it up with your toes and toss it.



I have sparred on a balance beam. only limited by your ability to attack effectively on a 4" wide beam 3' off the floor.

my natural balance sucz. I would usually just charge to the clinch and slam them on the floor as I went down.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Serpent
Do you hit the opponent with bricks?!

;)

Only if you are good enough ;)

[Oso]

Hey AT, can you delete this thread so Gene doesn't see my idea for the bricks.

serpent, I'll cut you in on the rubber coated ones.

[Serpent]

Deal!

[Oso]

done.

my girl just made some ginger teriyaki shish kabobs. I'm eatin.

later guys.

[Oso]

serpent, what did you do, delete your post?

dinner rocked!

my girl rock's.

and I saw people chunkin punkins over 4000 feet w/ catapults and big 10" bore air guns.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Oso
serpent, what did you do, delete your post?


Nah, I didn't delete anything. Which post?

[Oso]

i must a been confused about which email notification of a post went with your last post:)

[Serpent]

Mmmmmconfusion.....

[dezhen2001]

and I saw people chunkin punkins over 4000 feet w/ catapults and big 10" bore air guns. i noticed you avoided this part Serpent :eek:

dawood

[Leimeng]

~ I take a 25 lb bag of steel shot and throw it around for about 20 minutes a day catching it with my fingers.
~ I then add "Snake Turns Over" for 100 reps or so after that.
~ After that, I look for some of my class mates to practice three star striking drills and rub some nice jow deep into the forearms.
~I am going to try some of these other exercises offered here as well.

Peace

Sin Loi

Yi Beng, Kan Xue

[5thBrother]

could some of u please describe any 2 man conditioning "forms" u do please. 2,3,9 stars etc...

escpeically those that invovle multiple body areas toughened in the one drill

for example

A & B

1. r stance. low right "backfists" connecting on FOREARM muscles
2. r high "backfists" connecting on FOREARM muscles
3. A grabs B's right wrist with right grasping hand and pull as left PALM strikes B's own left PALM strike
4. left round knee to B's right THIGH
5. A steps forward to left sance. B steps back to left stance

repeat cycle alternating sides for x reps/lines den change roles

thank you

[cha kuen]

3 star!

[5thBrother]

what kinda 3 stars do u do?