Circling Hands Chi Sau

[black and blue]

On another thread Jim spoke of Circling Hands Chi Sau as a different platform for Chi Sau (different when compared to Poon Sau).

A platform that Leung Jan taught in Koo Lo, the Cho's/Yuen Kay San lineage preserve.

Can anyone explain the dynamics/movements/principles etc for Circling Hands Chi Sau, as I'm not familiar with this platform?

Many thanks

Duncan

[reneritchie]

Trying to steal some ancient kung-fu, eh??

LOL!

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Duncan!


First! Rene! **** I didnt want him to know it was the secret stuff! sheeeshh! Now i have to let the secret out since i promised to discuss it! hehehe


Duncan!


I will try to make it short and sweet!

Circling hands is a nice platform for feeling and many other things. The base training of the rolling is called Gan Sao (following the hands) or Gun Sho is mandarin. No confusion with the Gaan Sao (cultivating hand)! It teaches you to just roll and listen. Allow your hands to feel the flow that your partner is controlling.

Part of this continuous circling motion allows you to eliminate the edges in your methods. The constant circling develops a fluidity that needs to be experienced to be appreciated.

Part of the sensativity that is being develop would naturally be no different from Luk Sao in that you learn to find the holes, you learn to feel your partners center of gravity, you learn to eliminate fixed movements or patterns and develop the ability to "change".

Circling hands in Koo Lo WC, as preserved by the Dai Sihing of the village Wong Wah Sam, makes use of 4 rolls. Normally you would only see one in the public.


Hope that helps a bit!


Regards,

[Phenix]

Hi Jim, Rene,

Sure all the rolls...Ha ha ha
for Yik Kam....

there are 4 type of circle.
these four connected to the open, close, rise, and drop of Emei 12 Zhuang...

there are core of breaking other's structure......
there are core of silk twisting....
there are core of listerning..
there are core of six direction force
there are core of path of force...

It no longer the elbow only----- the elbow, the shoulder, the Dan Chung,.... the control.... circle never ended.

[black and blue]

Thanks for the insight... albeit a little cryptic :)

I am now sure to spend the next 20 years or so trying to glean the four methods of circular rolling! LOL.

Rene - You are a tease! :D

On the Leung Jan thread you posted a link to an mpeg that, among other things, had two students rolling (circular) and then attacking through any perceived weakness... can anyone say 'which' of the four types of roll is being used.

Cheers,

Duncan Stealer of Kung Fu Secrets

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Duncan!


If you want to learn the 4 Chi Sao you need to find someone who knows them and that is not easy. Most learn only number one unless they are part of the so-called inner circle. In the UK I know some practitioners that come from Fung Sang. To the best of my knowledge they only were taught number one but it a good place to start. I taught Robert Stevens number one during his recent visit here and he lives in Wales so if he is willing then that is a good place to possibly start!!!

The Chi Sao you watched was numero uno!


See ya,

[black and blue]

Thanks Jim,

I will certainly contact your friend in Wales. It's a little way from me, but if he's willing to let me train with him for a day or so it's worth the train fare.

So... Wales for Number 1
Boston for Number 2 (hint hint)
Eastern Canada for Number 3 (Rene, what was your address again? :) )
Mainland China for Number 4

It's a Wing Chun World Tour! I think I'll need sponsorship. Anyone willing to donate to a worthy cause?

Phenix - Where are you based if you don't mind me asking?

Duncan

Ps. Phenix - you said:


there are core of silk twisting....

Do you mean Silk Reeling? Here is a definition of Silk Reeling Energy I was sent by a friend doing Tai Chi... is this, in flavour, what you're talking about for the circular roll?


Circle you arm around. Good, that's rotation. Now stick out your arm and rotate it on the axis. That's rotation. Now circle AND rotate your arm simultaneously. Great, you've graduated from RSE 101. RSE should be in every move in Kung Fu. Even the basic punch is a good example because it introduces RSE so early. Contrary to what many teachers say the rotational component of the basic punch (you know, the palm up to palm down rotation when you throw the punch) does NOT add much power to the strike (about 3%). But it DOES train the arm to rotate as it extends and reverse rotation for the return trip. Very important stuff.
There are literally hundreds of ways to play with RSE. Here's a "simple" (see those lying quotation marks?) one you can do in your spare time. Stick out your index finger like you are inserting it in the knothole of a fence. Now rotate you wrist around this fixed point, now engage the elbow to do the same, now add the shoulder (by now you'll have to be moving your waist like a belly dancer to create a true circle). All this without moving the finger from the imaginary spot.

[Miles Teg]

Black & Blue

Where did you get that quote from?
What does RSE stand for?
Where can you get that info on the 4 stage chi sao? Or what does each level represent? Is it different movements?

[junmo]

Black and Blue,

Sifu Joseph Man teaches the circling chi sao from the Lee Shing WC tradition in North London. Email me and I can send you his details if you are interested.

Cheng

[black and blue]

Junmo -

Thanks for the heads-up. I will PM you later today! North London is considerably nearer than China :). Many thanks for the help.

Miles Teg -

Hello. The quote came from a friend now studying Wu style Tai Chi, though I'm not sure where 'he' got it from.

RSE = Reeling Silk Energy.

The four stages/cycles. Hey man, all of your questions are ones 'I'm' trying to find answers to ;). Jim suggested a man in Wales, and Junmo suggested someone in London. If I have any more information I'll be sure to pass it on.

If anyone else has any information, it would be greatly appreciated.

Dunc

[Jim Roselando]

Hello all,


In Lee Shing WC they do have a circling hands. It comes from Lee Shing's training under my teachers Si Suk Fung Sang. Lee Shing learned Pin Sun WC from him. I am not sure if he learned all four cycles but I do know they learned atleast the first cycle. To date that is all I have seen them do or discuss when it came to circling hands chi sao.


Regards,

[black and blue]

Oh go on, Jim... give us a brief description of each of the four rolling methods... you know you want to :p

I was introduced to Poon Sau after about 1.5 years of training... does your lineage's training structure follow a similar line for these four methods, or is it earlier (or later)?

Duncan

[junmo]

Hi Jim,

just curious whether any of the other levels of Pin Sun WC circling hands have the four postures of Gaan Sao, Fook Bong, Kwan Sao, Po pei within their interaction? - the reason I ask this is that I have seen rolling interaction done utilising these four postures and I am curious about the origins.

thanks

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


I will write more info. on the 4 cycles tomorrow but to answer the question just asked I will hit that now!


just curious whether any of the other levels of Pin Sun WC circling hands have the four postures of Gaan Sao, Fook Bong, Kwan Sao, Po pei within their interaction? - the reason I ask this is that I have seen rolling interaction done utilising these four postures and I am curious about the origins.


Gaan Sao? Depends on which Gan are we talking about? Certainly one can exchange the hands in the Gan Hands in a similar way that the young pupils show in Fung Chun's clip (before they started wrestling ugggg) but normally we do it a pinch different. That would be a bigger circle! Like I said: Gaan means to follow and the first stage is just listening.

Fook Bong? They are more often found transitioning thru the first stage of circling. Its not as easy to see if you were watching the Luk Sao of YKS/YM but its in there. Most spend a long long time learning this before moving onto Chi Sao number two (if they ever learn it).

Kwan Sao? There is a different Chi Sao type platform that involves the training of something similar to Kwan Sao that one learns around the time you learn Wu Dip Jeung! Normally! The Wu Dip Chi Sao is not taught to non-disciples in Koo Lo! My teacher only taught his private pupils this platform.

I can also tell you that their is a form of under cycling that one learns when you learn Biu Choi. It does not involve the Biu Choi but it is the training of that stage.

Ok! Let me give you some scoops on the training of Leung Jan's teaching in Koo Lo as our family preserves it. Keep in mind some of this stuff was already in Leung Jan's original teaching and a some stuff was modified and developed for his Koo Lo teaching.

There are basically 12 skills to the core fist fighting system. Then there are extensions and kicks etc.. Most! Most of the skills in the 12 + have some form of San Sik or two man set that goes along with it to develop certain feeling's/attributes/noi gong etc.. Then they are all trained on the dummy, in chi sao and in running hands. Some stuff is just practiced in San Sik and there is no set two man set for that stage!

Basics:

Jut Choi has San Sik
Dai Bong has a two man set

System proper:

Siu Lim Tao has a two man set that involes sticking
Dai Lim Tao has San Sik
Som Gin Choi has San Sik
Biu Choi has a two man set with under cycling sticking
Sup Jee Choi has San Sik
Lan Kiu has San Sik
Wu Dip Jeung has a two man set that is sticky
Jit Jee Kum Kiu has a two man set involves sticking
Hok Bong has a two man set that involes sticking
Tang Ma Biu Jee has San Sik
Wan Wun Yiu has San Sik
Fook Fu has a two man set that is sticky

All tis stuff works out to in, in to out, bottom to top and top to bottom! 4 corners! Sifu has always made it clear that if you have the art without the training and chi sao platforms you have a bullet (and a gun) but will not know how to shoot it!


Talk with you tomorrow!


Regards,

[Phil Redmond]

Jim wrote:
Kwan Sao? There is a different Chi Sao type platform that involves the training of something similar to Kwan Sao that one learns around the time you learn Wu Dip Jeung! Normally! The Wu Dip Chi Sao is not taught to non-disciples in Koo Lo! My teacher only taught his private pupils this platform. JR

It's a good thing we don't keep secrets from our students. I want my students to be better that me.
Phil

[Jim Roselando]

Hi Phil!


How are you?


It's a good thing we don't keep secrets from our students. I want my students to be better that me.


Totally agree with you! I cannot agree with the Village/Family mentality of the old Kung Fu pai. Unfortunately it has been around for a long long long time and probally will never go away but for me I prefer to show exactly how it was meant to be shown. Hell, even when I did some Braz JJ some of my Braz friends would often tell me that; Normally we dont show this to the Gringo's! If you are not sure about someone then you might as well dont teach them versus creating something odd or leaving things out. This only adds to the confusion/harming of the art/student in later years!


Have to run!

[teazer]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
All tis stuff works out to in, in to out, bottom to top and top to bottom! 4 corners!

Interesting stuff. As always!
Might this perchance look something similar, though perhaps a bit more rounded too what is often thought to be the 'arm-breaks' vertically & horizontally in Yip Man lineage Chum Kiu?

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Teezer,


Interesting stuff. As always!
Might this perchance look something similar, though perhaps a bit more rounded too what is often thought to be the 'arm-breaks' vertically & horizontally in Yip Man lineage Chum Kiu?


Not really! :-) If you want to see stuff "that is available" that would be closest to Leung Jan's teaching you shoud buy Rene's YKSWC book.


Regards,

[yuanfen]

Jim R. sez:
Not really! :-) If you want to see stuff "that is available" that would be closest to Leung Jan's teaching you shoud buy Rene's YKSWC book.
-----------------------------------------------
I have read Rene's nice book.
But Jim- your historical assertion is just that- an assertion!

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Joy,


How are you?

I know some of the stuff I wrote/write may not be what everyone likes to hear but since I compared both then I would have to disagree with you on this point. If we didn't have Leung Jan's Koo Lo preservation to add into the comparison of arts I then would have to agree with you.

Take care!


Regards,

[hunt1]

Jim I have to second yuanfen. An argument can be made that YKS follows the teaching syllabus of Ng Chung So which would also account for the common style elements you refer to. YKSWC does have a different Syllabus than that of his brother based on Yuan Chai Fatsan and Viet teachings. One would expect the bothers that shared a teacher to teach the same 3 hand sets etc.
YKS did know and several accounts have him visiting, practicing at Ng Chunf So's school so he could have adapted those methods.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Hunt1,


Jim I have to second yuanfen.

Thats ok. Just because I say it doesn't mean I expect all to believe. Check for yourself and decide! :-)

An argument can be made that YKS follows the teaching syllabus of Ng Chung So which would also account for the common style elements you refer to.

Well, I would have to change that sentence to say;

An argument can be made the YKS follows the same teaching syllabus as Wong Wah Bo lineages do. Yuen's WC has no link to Ng Chung So what so ever. Well, other than Yuen being his Martial Uncle!


YKSWC does have a different Syllabus than that of his brother based on Yuan Chai Fatsan and Viet teachings. One would expect the bothers that shared a teacher to teach the same 3 hand sets etc.

This I would have to leave for Rene to tackle but IMO I would be careful as to what is being preserved by the Viet WC groups. They seem to have done some unique stuff to the WCK they learned.

YKS did know and several accounts have him visiting, practicing at Ng Chunf So's school so he could have adapted those methods.

From what I heard this was just a story to link YKS into the same lineage tree as everyone else and make him out to be Yip's junior! It has no truth to it but once again I would have to leave this for Rene.


Regards,

Regards,

[hunt1]

Your comments lead to another interesting point and why I think that all our history discourse is really just mental masterbation.

What makes one set of stories more credible than another?
Case in point Sum Nung wrote or said? and YKS grandson wrote or said? that Yip man learned for YKS in some fashion. Kwok Fu and Lan Gai have said that YKS tried to learn or steal Yip Mans WC. How do you know who is correct. It is said Lee Man said that he with some others made up the Leung Bik story. You and Rene seem to believe that. Then why if Lee man also said that YKS trained with Ng Chung So do you not believe him. What makes one story any more believable than another and what makes either believable at all?

[reneritchie]

Hunter,

Yuen Kay-San and Yuen Chai-Wan have the same system, and in China and to the ethnic Cantonese students in Vietnam, they learned pretty much the same 3 sets. Later, in Vietnam, the ethnic Vietnamese students combined what WCK they learned from Yuen Chai-Wan with other village systems, especially 5 Animals and Qigong, to create modern Vietnamese WCK (some also included the Chan Wah-Shun WCK Lui Yiu-Chai taught there as well).

There's no argument to be made that Yuen Kay-San learned from Ng Jung-So, that was just rice-bowl protecting propaganda, the same as William Cheung saying in an interview that Yuen Kay-San learned from Yip Man and taught Pao Fa Lien or Mok Poi On writing in his article that Yip Man learned Pien San WCK from Yuen Kay-San. Certain people tried to fiddle with history for their own purposes. Luckily, now, China is open, the lineages are available, and everything can be checked, cross checked, and re-checked, if we put aside pride and centricity.

Beyond stories, though, if you've seen Ng Jung-So WCK (not from Yiu Choi, as he also learned from Yuen Chai-Wan and hence there will be similarities) it looks very little like Yuen Kay-San, and much more like Yip Man. So, there is still no reason for Yuen Kay-San to look more like Koo Lo, since Koo Lo has no connection to Ng Jung-So, and neither look like Ng Jung-So. (And, FWIW, Ng Jung-So never seemed to teach much to anyone anyway, not even the Yiu's who cared for him until his death).

Factually, the only other explination would be if Sum Nung, Fung Chun, and Cho On were training partners, and adapted all their systems to share certain characteristics, while leaving others unique, and this seems rather less likely, given the men and arts involved.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Hunt1,


Your comments lead to another interesting point and why I think that all our history discourse is really just mental masterbation.

History is just history. It doesn't make any of us better at WCK. Its usually just a side hobby to the art or as you say:

Mental Masterbation!

What makes one set of stories more credible than another?

Probally evidence or the number of people stating the stories or the source etc. etc.

Case in point Sum Nung wrote or said? and YKS grandson wrote or said? that Yip man learned for YKS in some fashion.

Where do you think the Luk Sao platform came from in YMWC? Its not part of Leung Jan's teaching and other lineages from Leung Jan that have no connection to YKS/YM dont have it. YKS was Yip's Martial Uncle and friend so is that so hard to believe? I would think its kind of possible especially since Yip stayed with him for a bit??? Cant remember the story!

Kwok Fu and Lan Gai have said that YKS tried to learn or steal Yip Mans WC.

Whenever I hear steeling and secrecy I tend to think its BS. Especially since Yuen was a well know WC expert who had stories written about him.

How do you know who is correct.

We dont. We can only go with what is more likely or less likely but in the end????

It is said Lee Man said that he with some others made up the Leung Bik story. You and Rene seem to believe that.

I believe it because even our family says Leung Jan's sons were not very skilled. I believe it because people who were around back then have come out and said it was just propoganda.

Then why if Lee man also said that YKS trained with Ng Chung So do you not believe him.

Because Yuen was probally the best around at that time and his martial uncle. Also, YKS was very private with his info. and many just made stuff up to link him in. It doesnt mean I am correct.

What makes one story any more believable than another and what makes either believable at all?

I tend to go with what is more likely but in the end it doesnt matter. It was a common marketing ploy that in the early days people thought Yip was the only true grandmaster etc.. This was played for quite a while and many stories came out trying to support it. So, usually you have to sift thru and believe what you want to believe. It doesn't matter in the end. They are just stories.


Take care,

[Phil Redmond]

How do you know who is correct.

We dont. We can only go with what is more likely or less likely but in the end????JR


I tend to go with what is more likely but in the end it doesnt matter. It was a common marketing ploy that in the early days people thought Yip was the only true grandmaster etc.. This was played for quite a while and many stories came out trying to support it. So, usually you have to sift thru and believe what you want to believe. It doesn't matter in the end. They are just stories.JR

Jim, there is no specific written history or film footage or verifiable documentation on WCK history. We all base or histories on oral traditions and so-called lineages. You just admitted above that we don't know for sure but you speak as though you used a time machine to go back and teach us the real WC past. The nature of your posts suggests that "you" really know.
One of my hobbies is Ancient history. Do you know how many historical mis-conceptions are believed by the general population? These mis-conceptions can be disproved by scientific evidence/research. So how can we say what did or did not happen in an"art" form. All we have here is a bunch of guys in a Teahouse telling stories we heard without any scientific base. We all tend to defend our own beadbasket.
Phil

[Jim Roselando]

Hiya Phil!


How are you!


Jim, there is no specific written history or film footage or verifiable documentation on WCK history.

Very true!

We all base or histories on oral traditions and so-called lineages.

True again!

You just admitted above that we don't know for sure but you speak as though you used a time machine to go back and teach us the real WC past. The nature of your posts suggests that "you" really know.

Well, if you noticed most of my thoughts state "I believe" in them. Nobody knows for sure and I also said;

"I" tend to go with what is more likely but in the end it doesnt matter.

Yet! "I" do believe firmly in some of the stylistic info. I state but that doesn't mean I am not open for a change of views! Just look at what I wrote about my belief's on Hendrik's research. In the beginning I was totally against it and thought he was way off but then I began studying a Zhan Zhuang art (for health) and the light came on. Now, my view has changed. See, I am not so closed minded! hehehe

One of my hobbies is Ancient history. Do you know how many historical mis-conceptions are believed by the general population?

I am sure numerous! I love watching shows on Ancient Egypt and other places. They can't even agree on the age of that!

These mis-conceptions can be disproved by scientific evidence/research.

Similar to how some of our mis-conceptions can be proved by cross-checking lineages somewhat!

So how can we say what did or did not happen in an"art" form.

We cant be 100% sure but we can use the known lineages to cross-check and go with what is more likely or less likely.

All we have here is a bunch of guys in a Teahouse telling stories we heard without any scientific base. We all tend to defend our own beadbasket.

The defending of our own beadbasket tends to be part of the problem within MA discussion. I know my families history but do not stand by it. I do believe in the info. they have preserved on Dr. Leung Jan. I read info. from all and make my own decisions based on what I believe makes the most sense but nobody is claiming it to be the amen truth. It's My Beliefs!


See ya,

[yuanfen]

Jim sez:

Thats ok. Just because I say it doesn't mean I expect all to believe. Check for yourself and decide! :-)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course.


Lots of interesting stories- most area waste of time.

BTW--- Leung Ting's book on Wing Chun's roots is an interesting piece of work. He does his own promotion of course. But he has some interesting things to say about YKS, Sum Nun and Koo LO
that appear to vary from Rene's or Jim's perspectives..
People should check that book out for themselves. I am nota WT or TWC person- but I found some of the discussion quite inetresting when he was not talking about WT.
Read for yourselves as much as you can and take all self or lineage promotions with a healthy dose of skepticism.

The best posts are those that give analytical reasons for doing things in different ways so that folks can share, compare and decide for themselves.

[hunt1]

JR I am sure you are aware there is WC out there that traces back to Leung Jans very early students and has a written record including diagrams to show its WC. They have their own take on several stories yet in the end the family head says that all that matters is when -SNAP- you need your WC if it works its good WC if not to late to get your money back.

[reneritchie]

Leung Ting's book is unfortunately quite political and often self-contradictory, not to mention factually inaccurate (Sum Nung never wrote a book ;) In one chapter he claims YKS was Ng Jung-So's student exclusively, in another he claims YKS learned from his brother, YCW who learned from Fok Bok-Chuen. Even he couldn't keep it straight LOL!

Luckily, there are historical documents, and there are ways to get fairly good ideas on the history of the various lineages. The Foshan Association kept records dating back quite a while (which mention Fok Bo-Chuen, Dai Fa Min Kam, and Yuen Kay-San's history with them, as well as the histories of various other WCK masters of the time). The Wing Chun Kuen Research branch of the Jing Mo in Foshan, wisely headed by a Qigong rather than partisan WCK player (at least it was at inception) probably has them now. This information could previously be checked with Sum Nung (now with his students), and with the Yuen family (YKS' sons were non-practitioners), which all had consistent accounts. Likewise, other histories could be checked with the Foshan students of Yip Man, with Chan Yiu-Min's family and students, with Ng Jung-So's students and family, etc.

While the bamboo curtain kept much of this from the Western public for many years, and allowed some to take advantage of it, now anyone with the resources and time to do the work can check it out and decide for themselves. No secrets, other than the all important one: effort.

People can talk. They always do. Usually about others. And people can cling to ideas that make them feel somehow secure beyond the application Hunter so wisely advises about. Let them. As my late sigung said: Wise people will inform themselves and make their own intelligent determinations.

[sticky fingers]

On the Leung Jan thread you posted a link to an mpeg that, among other things, had two students rolling (circular) and then attacking through any perceived weakness... can anyone say 'which' of the four types of roll is being used.


Can somebody please post that link again? I can't find it . Thanks

[sticky fingers]

On the Leung Jan thread you posted a link to an mpeg that, among other things, had two students rolling (circular) and then attacking through any perceived weakness... can anyone say 'which' of the four types of roll is being used.


Can somebody please post that link again? I can't find it . Thanks

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


The Chi Sao being demonstrated is basically a larger version of the first platform that is taught.


Regards,