Traditional Shaolin WINNING NHB???? [Archive]

Royal Dragon

07-02-2001, 08:20 PM

Dark Knight

07-02-2001, 08:30 PM

The reason you do not see Kung Fu winning in NHB event is because it is a specific type of fighting. Also it is not NHB, there are rules that make it sutable for a peticular type of fighting. You might as well ask why a NHB fighter doesnt win in boxing. Its different rules and training.

Next, most of those people who trash other stlyes compared to NHB dont train for NHB. They are internet heros. The training required for NHB is tough, you have a small population that will train like that.

If you want to compare your style to another you must compare it on common ground. Lets look at street effectivness. Can your style be used in the street? Is it effective in the street? Is that what you are training for? Are you a sales person who makes a living on how you look, and cant afford to practice full contact for NHB but want training to defend yourself?......

Most style are effective and were developed on someones experience in fighting, will they all work in NHB, UFC... no, but will they work on the street?

beiquan

07-02-2001, 08:49 PM

BJJ and MMA exist for the purpose of competition. If there were no UFC/Pride/ValeTudo/whatever, who would have heard of any of these things? People that practice these styles were introduced to them through the medium of competition, and consequently join up with these styles with the intent to compete.

Chinese martial arts are a system of personal cultivation, not to say that this is not present in BJJ or MMA but I would guess that the majority of people who study CMA do so for this reason. The name "gongfu" itself is indicative of this. In my experience, this type of competition is not the end to which most CMA practitioners train (IMO).

Just remember, people fight in these competitions, not styles. Hypothetically speaking, if I want to become a competitive fighter, OK, I've seen every UFC and Pride, and all I've ever seen win in these competitions are grappling/MMA which I think is the coolest thing, I'm not going to join a gongfu school where I have to sit in horse stance, I'm going to join a BJJ gym...it's kind of a self-perpetuating cycle.

Why do you have to make the MMA crowd "admit" to anything? I'm a gongfu practitioner, I'm happy with my style; after a few years of training, I still feel like I have a long way to go. I can't imagine that, years down the line, when I've been training for ten+ years, I'm going to feel that I need to prove anything to anybody else by competing in a competition. Here's a question: how would you convince a CMA practitioner that they should compete in these kind of events? What possible benefit or motivation would you offer this person as an incentive, if they are not already inclined to undertake this kind of training?

I have lots of respect for NHB/MMA, and I like to watch the competitions; I also like other competitive sports such as sumo or fencing but I don't feel any strong urge to prove myself in any of these venues...

Anyway good luck keeping the trolls out of this one, so far this Shaolin forum has had a pretty level-headed crowd, hope it stays that way...

Royal Dragon

07-02-2001, 09:18 PM

OK,
I see some points, BUT Chinese martial arts HAVE competitive events!! So don't tell me no Chinese martial artist has a competitive drive!! There are examples of Kung Fu vs. Tai boxing, and I know LOT's of Kung Fu schools compete. Why have we not seen the elite level Kung Fu fighters do well in the MMA events? If they are there at all?

remember, when I compare NHB fighters, I'm NOT talking the average joe looking to survive a mugging, I'm talking the elite level practitioners of the arts. When are we going to see the elite level Kung Fu players do well in the MMA comps? If we are to compare apples to apples, then we should not bring street into this. And IF we did, i'm going to have to say, that the guy winning in the ring is going to be the SAME guy winning on the street, especially since there, he's NOT restricted to the rules of what ever tournament he's in. That goes for Kung Fu as well as MMA.

Dark Knight

07-02-2001, 09:33 PM

"If we are to compare apples to apples, then we should not bring street into this. "

Then you cannot compare boxing to NHB, Melton Bowen, a heavy weight boxing champion, lost to Steve Jennum at UFC, does that mean that Boxing is no good because it lost to a NHB fighter.
What about MT, they have done poorly at NHB, Dan Severn abused a MT fighter. is MT crappy since it does not do well in NHB?

You might as well say that about anything except MMA because no one style wins in MMA. (The reason its called Mixed Martial Arts)

Its not the style that makes a difference, its the individual and the training.

A kung Fu guy could win in NHB but he would have to cross train for it, then is he still a kung fu guy?

Radhnoti

07-02-2001, 09:49 PM

Another thing holding CMA's back from winning NHB competitions (in my opinion) is the fact that it's not as widespread as most the other MA's. Say you have 5000 guys with the basic long term goal to win a NHB competition. 500 attend a CMA school and the rest go elsewhere. Of those 500 how many will have the basic athleticism needed to compete? How many will stay injury free? How many will stay focused on their goal? Finally, how many will WIN and then go on to TEACH with a focus on NHB training? It makes sense to me that the styles that will produce NHB fighters are:
1. Popular styles...better chance of lucking into a "natural" athlete.
2. Styles that train SPECIFICALLY for NHB tournaments.
I totally agree with what the others have said as well. Especially beiquan's point about CMA's being a "system of personal cultivation" (boy that's well put! ;) ) and not just about bashing others heads in all the time.

-Radhnoti

Royal Dragon

07-03-2001, 01:03 AM

Radhnoti,
If it's just a matter of popul;arity, how come tae kwon Do does'nt dominate the UFC? it's the most poular style in the world last I heard.

What does every one think of this statement,

"Knug Fu today is just watered down play, and WILL NEVER do well in NHB comps against the MMA's because it has become a dead art used mostly as a work out system, they just don't have the knowledge anymore"

Royal Dragon

Royal Dragon

07-03-2001, 01:38 AM

Since we are on the subject of comparring apples to apples, should'nt we be comparing the rules of engagement, and NOT what discaplin the artist sudys?

I see it as a no rule vs rule situation. If both fighters are fighting in a total NO RULE situation, then we CAN compar the merits of a certain style vs another by pairing off 10 or more of each style and fighting them one on one. Then, take an average of wins and losses. This will give you a picture of a styles effectivenes. Now, if you take 100 fighters, and face them off, and ONE perticular style LOOSES 90% of the time one can conlude that the style with the loosing average is inferior to the one with the winning average.

Now, I know we can't fight no rules and expect there not to be casualties, but I think the modern NHB figthts are as close as you can get. AND if a large number of Kung Fu fighters consitantly loose, or fail to even make the cut and fight to begin with, then one must conclude that it's NOT a very effective method or group of methods. This is what is happening out there.

Now, I, as a Kung Fu (Tai Tzu Quan) practitioner, do NOT believe the MMA's have a superior system, BUT they do seem to win on awfull lot, and Kung Fu fighters seem to loose if they make it through the paliminarys at all. I would "like" to belive the best of us have NOT stepped up to the plate yet.

Now, since Kung Fu is suposed to be the superior arts, why don't they win in the MMA's? Are we all being delusional with our expectations of our arts? Or is there something else? Certianly all the elements for sucsess are there. Is it that no one has put it all together yet? Or is thier something else going on, am I wrong in my assesment of the abilitys my art can give me?. If so, why persue it? I want to know what is going on out there. I want to make sure I am training in the best system.

I would LOVE to see a purely traditionally trained fighter fight in the UFC, PRIDE or some thing equally as big, and dominate. NO, I would like to see LOT'S of Kung Fu guys do that.

If any one knows of tournaments where Shaolin Kung Fu guys DID do good and even won in NHB evenst against the current holy grail of fighting (MMA), I would love to know the details of when, where and who the fights took place and what were the exact results. Then, I want to know HOW they trainned and IF it was truly traditonal, or if he mixed in modern methods.
What style or styles did he study, How many hours does he train, what are his training sceduals different or alike the norm. Did he do lot's of forms, or free fighting. How about Chi Kung is that a factor in his sucsess?

My daughter is at the gym she is, because they win!! Consitantly, against the toughest competition in the country. Why do they win so much? because they have one of the BEST training systems in the country. Each Kung Fu style is actually a training system for fighting. I want mine to be one of the best. So, what makes a fighting system an elite fighting system. Can any style be an elite fighting system? Or are there certain styles that just suck, kind of like some gyms just suck because thier system sucks?

The readers want to know

RD

Lightning Vortex Seiryu go

07-03-2001, 01:44 AM

the best of the real masters of gung-fu are above going around proving ability in compitions around the would esp. vs slouting neandrathal boneheads.
hyperspace_5@hotmail.com

happy fourth!!! :cool:

come on,

Radhnoti

07-03-2001, 04:58 AM

Actually, I'd be interested in how many of the NHB competitors started out in TKD. No offense to TKD students, but a NHB competitor would PROBABLY have to move into MMA training to pick up the ground fighting, etc.

-Radhnoti

Shaolindynasty

07-03-2001, 07:32 PM

One problem is that people are lumping all CMA together. China is a big country it has hundreds of styles of martial arts. If we lumped together JMA we would say because Shotokan hasn't done well then Judo Jujistu etc. wouldn't do well. To my knowledge only San soo and Wing Chun guys have competed in MMA tournaments they hardly represent all of CMA. Another factor is conditioning, those tournaments are for professional fighters. The guys that came from "kungfu" styles are at best not in shape amatuers. Alot of people are pushing Cung Le to compete in MMA although he has experience in BJJ and wrestling most people still consider him a sport kungfu competetor I personal don't really care to see him there. He fights great were he's at and is doing alot for his sport. This arguement is getting old and stupid though, seriously would you tell a boxer he sucks because he wouldn't do well in a MMA. No, because he is training for a different format. These are all different sports, even though they may have a similar theme they are still different. It's like expecting a basketball player to be good at soccer because both sports have round balls.

Witness the Dynasty!!!
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northstar

07-03-2001, 10:40 PM

I have never been able to see any NHB style competitions, but from reading this board I consistently find two statements reoccurring:
1. Traditionalists are constantly losing
2. The number of traditionalists in these competitions amount to a few persons (5 maybe)

Also, people who have claimed kung fu have not fought the kung fu way.

Seems to me that if these statements are correct, the issue is hypothetical so far.

However, I do believe that the bulk of people in TMA are not putting the time in necessary to become professional fighters. This is a shame since the essence of the old styles risk being lost, but on the other hand it's good not having masses of pro fighters roaming the streets...

Sun_Tzu

07-04-2001, 01:53 AM

It is not unplausible for a Kungfu fighter to win a UFC or NHB. IMO none of the real KF masters have shown up yet. There are few true kungfu masters alive today. Particularly in the U.S., Masters have had to cater to the american public by cutting corners on conditioning and training, to the point that its current students are weaker in all aspects in relation to former generations. MMA is just a new term for an old concept. Kungfu by its very nature and throughout history is a MMA, which is nothing more than learning from other fighting systems.

I personally have done well against MMA and grapplers. In part because they underestimate me givent their past experience with KF people and second I see it as a lifestyle not a hobby or sport, and I train like I should (not for competition, but to win). I cannot speak for all true practioners, But I have many reasons not to compete in NHB or UFC. The biggest reason, Not enough money to fight as much as they do and Braggin rights just doesn't do it for me. As well I have far more important things to do.

Although I think it is possible for a KF practioner to win these events I will say this, they are severely handicaped. The rules to these
events do cater to wrestlers and grapplers and restrict arts such as KF styles to the point that punches and kicks are all they have left. This is in part due to the fact that KF was designed for survival not sport.

....The skilled commander

Subitai

07-04-2001, 09:17 AM

Old thoughts and rehash that shouldn't need to be resaid...

...One problem w/ striking is there is NO way to Half A$$ it. I can't stop my punch half way and say "you might as well tap". Yes, a real punch not an adrenaline punch thrown w/ desperation.

Many of the tournament locks can be applied more slowly and thus you can afford to make em tap and look good. Fighting is ugly, no way around it.

*** Old timers know that ground work is nothing new**

Nothing that most old timers didn't know already. In the 70's my father was stressing me to bring your man down and take him out.

***Personal Protection = Equalizer***

People wonder why Kung Fu and similar arts can't do well in UFC. Simple, they did not evolve that way. In the Hey days you had to respect that the other guy might always be carrying protection, IE Dagger. In old times EVERYBODY or most carried at least a knife or Letter opener.
That is why most Martial arts ARE THE WAY THEY ARE. The evolved stances, protocol, ranges and used Distance to keep a safe zone and strike with impunity if possible.

I'll use my wrestling vs. someone whoâ€™s better at stand up than me. That's a no brainer...always have. But you give me a dagger and I fight the meanest 500lb grappler in the world because I'll gut him like a fish if he comes too close. 1st his extremities and tendons then the kill.

So what has been proven, some of the world is more enlightened by the last 5 or so years. So what, it doesn't change is this:

Two guys meet to fight, either spontaneous or by challenge. If they don't know anything about the other. There is some caution and testing. Not even MMA will immediately go to the ground.
Only a fool doesn't assume the other guy isn't packin' something. I always assume that. I know too many fools who carry Box Cutters. Do you have any idea the damage those razors can do?

Basically it's anybodyâ€™s day at any given time.

It's civilization, Pride in a style did not tell our ancestors to not use an Equilizer vs their foes just so they can say they beat a much bigger guy w/ their bare hands.

So i'm a Kung Fu guy too, but Iâ€™ve haven't had to make these Silly REALITY COMBAT ADJUSMENTS. I've been doing it naturally from the beginning.

BTW answer this, what do MMA/NHB guys look like when they have a weapon?

Answer: The same as everybody else.

For KF, being a martial "ARTIST" is not just about the fighting. It is culture, attitude, moral correctness and over all becoming a better person... But that is one reason why all of the NHB and MMA are beating standard Kung Fu practicioners. Because all they focus on is the PURE fighting aspect and not really anything else. Where as KF has so much more to learn.

In General and given this situation, it's only natural that the MMA will win...for sure in the ring.

"O"

Dark Knight

07-04-2001, 06:08 PM

"Now, I know we can't fight no rules and expect there not to be casualties, but I think the modern NHB figthts are as close as you can get."

NHB events are set up for grapplers, even the people who do it know that. Go over to the UG forum and ask the same question.

You are not compareing apple to apples.

Also, as someone else pointed out its a small population that actually train at that level, you might as well say that after watching Tyson fight you can say that the average MA guy would not stand a chance. The majority of schools, in any style, do not train heavy contact or have people training to be in that kind of condition. Frank Shamrock said his greatest asset was his conditioning.

Stop trolling and try to learn.

Royal Dragon

07-04-2001, 08:18 PM

First off, I AM NOT TROLLING. I am honestly interested in discussing this subject. If your opinion is that this is a troll, please leave the conversation.

Now, Back to the disscussion,
The idea that most Kung Fu schools are just not at professional levels is irrelevant. There are San Shou and Kou Shou competitions and many other full contact venues. There ARE professional level Kung Fu fighters out there. I want to know why they never seem to do well, or even compete in the modern MMA/NHB events. Is it that Kung Fu sux in this enviroment? Is it that the interst has not been there for the Kung Fu pro level guys to compete in those cometitions? What's the deal?

Kung Fu was suposed to be designed to function in a NHB life or death situation, right? if that's so, then it should, in theory, do really well in the modern fight scene. It's common sense. So, why are'n they dominating? Or at least holding a high level of respect?

Also, how does a limited rule NHB platform favor grappelers? Don't give me the multiple fighter on the street thing, if you can fight many, one guy in the ring should be easy, since many like to throw this one out, and state that Kung Fu is a multiple attacker art, then they should STILL dominat in the ring because fighting one is easier than many no matter what the rules or lack of. If grappelers ARE somehow favored, how come you don't see China's grappeling arts doing well in these matches?

Again, if you want to persist in claimimng or accusing me of being a Troll, please leave the conversation.

Dark Knight

07-04-2001, 09:54 PM

"Ps, I'm posting here as apposed to the Kung Fu forum, because I am looking for serious disusion, not a bashing war from the MMA's or responses from trolls. "

This was your last comment on your first post.

"Hello,
I have been perusing some other boards of the MMA variety lately, and I have to tell you, the opinion of Kung Fu's abilitys is VERY VERY low. It seem's the consensus is that Kung Fu (regaurdless of style) is nothing more than some sort of martial based Yoga."

This was your opening statement.

You obviously have little knowledge of Kung Fu, let alone other arts. You are taking the opinion of people who do not do Kung Fu, dont have any knowledge of what the different styles emphsize, or that NHB is not NHB.

Years before I got into grappling I fought many Ju Jitsu guys and had no problem with them, because most Ju Jitsu schools like most MA schools do not train for NHB events, let alone train hard for street defense.

By your logic boxing is useless because it has not done well in NHB and MT has not done well. Actually by your logic all styles are crap because only MMA does well in NHB events and not one traditional style does.

You are makeing uneducated statements. You right up front put out that you are here to troll by your opening statement. Go to the UG forum and ask if they think NHB is reality.
Get an education on the arts before you make statements.

Shaolindynasty

07-04-2001, 11:53 PM

I actually think that Royal Dragon is a Sifu in the Emperors long fist style so he should know a little about CMA. RD why do you think CMA doesn't fare well in NHB comps? Cung Le is a professional San Shou fighter ask him why he doesn't compete in NHB.

Witness the Dynasty!!!
New Site! www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

Royal Dragon

07-05-2001, 01:28 AM

Hello,
basically, what I have done, is to peruse many boards, and I have noticed a DISTINCT disrespect for Chinese arts. From what I can see, very few traditional Chinese artist (Kung Fu for short) do well in theses types of competitions. From where I am sitting, no matter what the rules are in theses comps, the Chinese arts were designed to function in may enviroments due to the complex and ever changing nature of combat. This being said, why are they failing in theses competitions, and why do others have so little respect for them? As a Chinese martial arts pratitioner with very little else since my early days, it's a bit disturbing to me.

I have lost fights before, but for the most part, no matter what background my opponents were, I at least held my own, including being attacked by 5 guys at once on the streets when I was younger.

Did I just fight loosers with no skill or something? Or is there something I'm not seeing keeping all the talent OUT of the MMA comps? If so, what is it?

"Cung Le is a professional San Shou fighter ask him why he doesn't compete in NHB."

How do I go about asking Cung Le why he has'nt fought NHB MMA comps yet? Is it money? Does he feel he can't keep up? Is he just NOT interested because he's getting what he needs where he's at?

"By your logic boxing is useless because it has not done well in NHB and MT has not done well. Actually by your logic all styles are crap because only MMA does well in NHB events and not one traditional style does. "

First, I never said, that ANY styles are crap. BUT, I am looking at systems that are suposed to be FAMOUS for being well rounded and versitile, attributes that are suposed to be the "Bomb" in the MMa's, yet they STILL don't do well, OR are mysteriously UNDER represented. Take the Jouhn Marsh fight, The Kung Fu Guy sucked. I saw the video off the net, and he did'nt even have any rooting. I don't know what his back ground was, but he was either NEVER very skilled, or so far past his prime he had no buisnes fighting at all. "I" would have done a better job and lasted longer against Marsh, and I am suffering from a back injury and am in NO WAY near my best shape at the moment.

Now, the MMA's are NHB comps that are suposed to be the closest things to all out raw fighting we can have today, short of holding old fashion death matches. Now, because of limited rules and the nature of theses comps, they should NOT favor any one style, and thearfore the styles of fighting that are best equiped in all ranges SHOULD be dominating. Boxing is a sport, that is LIMITED in it's approach, and would NOT fare well in situations where anything and every thing goes. Is it good to have boxing skills, YES it is, and I recomend boxing in anyones arsenall, but one of my instructors fought 14 viet cong hand to hand and wounded in vietnam, it was NOT boxing that saved his asss, it was Chinese martial arts. Now that being said, and with the knoledge of Kung Fu's origin and well rounded training aproach, Why does'nt it get more respect in theses perticular circles?

Shaolindynasty

07-05-2001, 06:20 PM

I read a Cung Le article where he said he doesn't compete in NHB( his friend Frank Shamrock pushes him to try)because he is doing more for CMA where he is at. The point is NHB is sport most people in CMA aren't in it for NHB sport. If you compete in NHB you are only helping NHB. Who really cares who has respect for what anyway? If people don't believe CMA is effective I feel sorry for them but I am not going to waiste my time trying to convience them. They lose out not me. I find when you argue this point with people they just say "I don't want to hear Blah blah blah".

Witness the Dynasty!!!
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Fu-Pow

07-06-2001, 12:37 AM

I don't watch many of these UFC/NHB things because they are....BOOOORRRING!!! I remember when I first started kung fu I thought, wow, this is great...real fighting!!! I especially rented the ones where it listed a kung fu fighter on the box..After watching a few of them I got really bored. They always end in the same predictable way...the grappler jumps on the guy and just hangs on him until he is tired out. The "kung fu fighter" is ALWAYS a MMA who is trying to use the expert grapplers own moves against him.
The most exciting part of the match is the swimsuit chicks that come out and announce the rounds.

Look... grappling is very effective. It allows you to control your opponent. Most traditional kung fu styles incorporate grappling in the form of Chin Na. Whether you are talking about CLF, Hung Gar or Taiji. But in a real fighting situation you cannot just hang on someone and tire them out, which is what goes on in these matches. This "Gracie" style of fighting is very specialized. They have essentially "cracked the code" on these matches and so these "fights" become meaningless and boring to watch. They are essentially over hyped wrestling matches.

I think that Kung Fu fighters want to compete in a forum where they can showcase all of their skills, kicking, punching and grappling. San Shou is a great example. Some kung fu fighters may think it is beneath them to compete in NHB kind of matches because they see themselves as all around fighters, not wrestlers.

Fu-Pow
http://makskungfu.com/images/R7star.gif
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

Subitai

07-06-2001, 01:37 AM

I respect your quest for knowledge. Others here like myself have tried to give you some answers.

I think Dark Knight and some others are dead on...I'd like to contribute to what's been said.

I'm sorry to repost and rehash some older posts but many good points have been brought up.
If you read these two and find nothing usefull towards your quest...Then you are just trolling.

http://forum.kungfuonline.com/1/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tpc&s=126197291&f=340190991&m=2901922081#5691921281

Member Subitai
From: CA
Registered: 04-07-00
Posts: 168
Here we go again.

What's up HG brother?
Don't let it get to you. You already know what works in given situations.
This fact is true: The NHB and MMA guys fighting at the TOP of the contests are the BEST (i.e. masters) at what they do.( Because it is new and ever-improving and evolving) That's great, it make the world more interesting.
So for sure they are the best at what they do...But no Gung Fu fighter ie. master (considered at the top of his field) has fought. NOT ONE. Perhaps they would loose, im not doubting the possiblity in either direction.
Let's look at it this way, before NHB came most full contact trained for primarily stand up. Given that situation, if EVERYONE was still required to STAY STANDING up the TOP field would be different. So credit the grapplers strengths.

When a Gracie looses, it doesn't mean he represents HIS entire style and that BJJ lost. Hes just a fighter that lost,not his style. Same with Kung Fu, Karate, TKD or any style.

Some guys I'd like to have seen fight:
Korean: Hee Li Cho (spelling?) That SOB could fold a HVY bag in half. OH My goodness, one hit!
I don't think most MMA would try to trade blows with someone like him. They'd diffuse him by taking him down. But just that fact that you have to totally avoid someones area and give it allot of respect says MUCHO.

Chinese: Shi Guo Lin or De Yang or De Ching or guys like that. I'm not saying they'd win automatically. They have just as much chance to be taken out by ground work. But I doubt any modern MMA guy would stand up fight them. HELL no!
Anyone who knows anything about real street fights will tell you that it is rare to have it totally straight up and fair matched in a perfect sureal setting. IT"S not, ONE SUCKER PUNCH AND BAM...I don't care who you are or what you know.

The Octagon is allot to experience: I know from personal experience. Travel, jet lag, crappy food, accomodations, theft of your training gear mid week. Gambling, prositutes being offered to you. The Mafia(certain country for sure), have to adjust to new altittude (ie oxygen content). All these things happened to me and or team mates. Basically the overall exerpience was not like any REAL street fights that i've ever had.
That's the plain truth, if anyone who's never actually been in there starts speculating about how real NHB and MMA experiences are, then they are doing just that....speculating.

Je Lei, don't let it get to you brother. Self control.
"O"

Subitai
Member

From: CA
Registered: 04-07-00
Posts: 168
It has come full circle

Kong,
In the beggining of the modern NHB era everyone believed ground fighting was it and they mostly always went down.
Then when the everyone mixed it up and learned different ranges and skills...they had to respect the other man in front of them.
Result = If you look at alot of the recent NHB matches you see alot more stand up out of respect for eachothers abilities.

SO IT HAS COME FULL CIRCLE. I've said it many times, in the street you don't know what your opponent knows OR WHAT HE IS CARRYING. Out of respect and precaution that's why fighting has developed the way it has all these years.
(if i have knife, ill gut the meanest 400lb fighter in the world like a fish if he gets too close)
Ask those MMA guys to fight w/ knives and watch how they will look like everyone else out there.
{ Kong } I'm very sorry that CMA did not fullfill you but you cannot say that it is pointless.(Perhaps you don't mean that tho)
All i'm sayin is, if it saves any Joe Schmo out there then it has worked.
I've watched "Knifefighters" posts for some time now and seen his bio. He's correct and seems to speak from experience. But remember, even he has Played CMA and will tell you that it has it's place and not totally useless.
I've been in real NHB events. I'm far from the best. I may never be the best, nobody is. All I know is the more i train, the more people i get better than.
But fighting NHB in a gym or garage no matter how realistic is still not exactly like being in the Superbowl = I.e. a Pay per view event. There are alot of other factors that come into play. You don't just show up and fight on the same day.
It is a week long experience or more.
There is training, physicals and blood testing, plane travel (jet lag), strange hotels, shady promoters, prostitution, Drugs, gambling, blackmailing, famous fighters infidelities with chicks while we were on location...the list goes on. All these things were approached and the opportunities presented themselves to me. It's alot to think about prior to putting yourself on TV and 20,000+ live people who are screaming "Break his Arm" or "Boo" in a collisium.
(Due to the fighters code: I cannot expound on really nitty gritty gossip)

So if you put your thoughts into this mindset at least the UFC type experience. From experience I can honestly say, it is not like any real fight that i've been in. All of my real fights have been spontaneous and usually with a clear (or slightly intoxicated, haha) head.
Anybody, who argues or speculates about this entire experience w/o having gone thru the process is...just that speculating.

To conclude, it is as we have always known. Any mans game at any given moment. Fighting is Chaos

Peace,
Onassis Parungao aka "O"

Royal Dragon

07-07-2001, 06:12 PM

Thanx for the link, there were several comments I though interesting. I cut and pasted them here for all to comment on.

That is why many BJJ and mixed martial artist use Pride and the UFC in there debates. It is something that we have ALL SEEN OR HEARD ABOUT. no one can claim that it was Bull**** and didn't happen, there is proof which can be witnessed by all. And again I reiterate that MMA is the clearest legal medium we have to witness how a styles techniques apply in the real world
So?

RD]
This makes perfect sense to me. II think if the Kung Fu world had SOLID practitioners fighting in these events, we would have a solid foundation in which to compar, discuss and anylize our systems in comparisens to other's systems.

Many traditionalist recount stories of how grand master X defeated 20 assasins without breaking a sweat. Most of us live vicariously through others to a certain extent, the difference is that the MMA crowd can really view the fights, critique it and see where a fighter went wrong or right, where all we traditionalist have are third hand stories and analysis of Kung Fu movies.

RD]
Another intersting comment. Basically, it speaks to the fact that Kung Fu styleists are depending on legends and stories for legitimasation, where as the MMA crowd is dependintg on factual fights, and real world results.

Read the Pride thread and look for how much analysis is done by the guys who study ground fighting. They're where the traditionalist should be.

RD}
I have NOT read the Pride thread, but I have read many MMA threads, and they do seem to have an "Anylise the facts" mindset, NOT something I see from us traditionalist all that often. THAT is exactly why I want to see our pro level guys fighting in the MMA's. So we can discuss and aynalise the true effectiveness of our systems against the worlds best. So far there have been pathetic attempt, by poorly trained "Masters". When these individuals go up against the best in thier field, in competitions designed SPECIFICALLY to test those that are the BEST in thier fields, well, you can see why no one respects us. The problem I am having, is that this (and similar discussions0 are always steered to the street, where the probability of gong up against some one that's at the top is slim to none. In order to truly test a style, it's BEST practitioners must go up against other system's BEST pratitioners, ovewr and over and over again. Then, the style or styles that come out on top the most will be known as being superior to those around them. AND, the ones that don't fare well, will be know to be inferior to the rest. Right now, Kung Fu styles are in the latter position.

BJJ can be ineffective if:
1) Your takedowns are ineffective.
2) Your conditioning is lacking.
3) your opponent knows BJJ.
No argument from me.

RD]
This can be said for ANY system, I am hoping that these three problems have been ramped in the Kung Fu fighters defetes. This at least gives me hope that a fully trained fighter can hold his own against the best.

Kung Fu was made popular by David Carradine and Bruce Lee. BJJ was made popular by many fighters using it and demonstrating it's effectiveness. Just a thought.

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

RD]
This is true, and probually the source for the bad "image" Kung Fu has. We need top level professional fighters to get into the NHB MMAs and WIN or at least hold thier own near the top on some sort of regular basis to correct this.

The truth is, modern MMA tournaments have exposed several weaknesses of BJJ - lack of standup and proper takedowns. However it took cross trained athletes years of study and practice to finally find the key. Saying that BJJ is innefective is udderly wrong considering its past dominance and what it took to defeat it.

RD]
Difficult to argue this comment, All I can say, is that Kung Fu has proven the opposite, by being defeted almost as much as BJJ has won. Since so few Kung Fu guys actually fight in these things, if you add up all the fights they have actuallyt bee =ing and get an average wijn vs lost statstic, and did the same for a non traditioanlly trained fighter, you would see overwhelming
losses for the traditional Kung Fu side. Not too insireing if you ask me.

Royal Dragon

Subitai

07-08-2001, 12:20 AM

You're not listening to what i'm saying.

Stop thinking in a confined controlled, PREDETERMINED arena. From experience, it is not the same.

1. You said, "Groundfighting is wear traditionalists should be". Very true they shouldn't ignore it.

However, if you have ever fought a complete stranger. You'd know that caution and distancing is the 1st immediate reaction. It is during this time that all styles can be considered EQUAL to some degree and more relys on the individual and experience. Ground play only comes into play after some initial forays into testing eachother. That is what really happens when you don't know anything about the other person.

2. Then I went further to name a few others (non grapplers ) I like to see fight.

Given the sheer predispositon of set up fights the out come is slightly off than realistic. I'd put up 10k on any MMA agreeing to fight someone like Shi Guo Lin (Monk) in just stand up. It won't happen. YES of course, he could be beaten on the ground. The issue is the whole set up of the fight and a predetermination of factors like, not to the death, in a ring and with prior knowledge of what a person is all about and what they can do. (ie prestudying videotaped fights)

Now the same fight, given the REAL circumstances as to what really happens in a fight. Say for example in a back parking lot after tossing a few back. NOBODY (smart anyway) just immediately goes for the takedown, they have to measure out the other opponent briefly and contemplate quickly on how to beat the other guy. It is this short time that we are all equil to some point. Given street awarness and a few other factors.

I'd continue but you can go on during your research by listening to message boards all day. Or you can listen to your own instincts and perhaps a few people who have done both sides of the coin.

Fee education is over.

"Brilliant general"! "When the dirty ******* finds out, he'll return with his men--then we kill the all of them..." www.kwoon.tv (http://www.kwoon.tv)

Royal Dragon

07-08-2001, 05:30 AM

Although I understand your perspective, and agree with you from that perspective, I have to say, that you can't bring the street into this, because with a street fight you can't go to your local blockbuster and rent the fight to see what really happened. It's all hearsay, and the farhter down the road you go, the mpre exaggerated it gets. That's what the MMA's are for, so we can LOOK back to what really hapened, compare techniques and stratigeys to see what worked and what didn't. In THAT arena, today's modern proving ground, Kung Fu does NOT do well, and I want to now why. If the training systems are no good, then why am I bothering to learn this stuff? However, if there is something else going on, under the surface, then I want to know what it is, so when I build MY club I don't fall into the trap.

Dark Knight

07-08-2001, 07:24 AM

You keep saying that yopu cannot bring the street into it. If you do not want to train for the street then you are def in the wrong art. You need to move to the art that trains for the sport you want. Even the Gracies have said they would not take it to the ground in a street fight.

If you want to know if a style will work in the street based on how effective it is in the ring then add all kickboxing styles and practitioners, all Judo players, all full contact fighters. they may not have won at UFC but they can dominate in thier fields. (Pat Smith makes over $200,000.00 per year fighting) Then you might as well add in the different styles of Kung Fu that are full contact or wrestling styles.

NHB fans only see Wushu as Kung fu. Its the most common to see because its flashy and the only style thrown on TV on a constant basis. They dont realize that the word Kung Fu is broad and takes in many styles.

NHB is not NHB. It is not the closest we can come to street fighting, also it does not take into account different fighting abilities. Mo Smith showed up at UFC with no ground fighting skills but beat Mark Coleman. Afterwards he trained for grappling with Frank Shamrock. If grappling was the better style what does the 145 pound 27 year old guy do who does not have the strength to make grappling work, or the 105 pound female do?

Im not sure what your point is. Is Most Kung Fu styles best for NHB events? NO.

You say we cant compare it to street fighting, well I do not train for MMA fights, I train for self defense and for myself. I have been in street fights and won, therefore the style I do is effective.

You need to clarify your point. Are you trying to say that Kung Fu styles are ineffective? Based on what if you dont want to look at street fighting.

reemul

07-08-2001, 01:20 PM

I have to side with grapplers on the subject to some degree. Grappling arts for the most train harder than most KF schools. Most KF school in the U.S. have been water down. Much of the condition has been abandoned. Grappling in and of itself is a chore and conditions you. As well most people who grapple know they will have to condition hard to succeed in it. KF schools in the U.S. alot of times draws in people who are unwilling to do the work that it takes to become
a formidable fighter, they all concentrate more on forms and neglect conditioning. I see this at my school. I however am not one of those individuals. I more formwork I do, does increase my fighting ability a great amount, but conditioning as a KF practioners has always been part of the equation. My instructor is an excellent example. I often joke about him being built like a Ninja turtle but in truth,aside from not haveing a shell, he is. He is about 6ft and probably weighs in the neighborhood of 200-215 lbs and solid. It doesn't help to know a lot of forms and lack the conditioning to make it work.

Royal Dragon

07-08-2001, 06:49 PM

You keep saying that you cannot bring the street into it.

Repy]
The reason you can't bring the street into the discussion, is because there is NO WAY to verify the results. No record, no score, no documentation or video. just a bunch of braggarts claiming victory and embeleshing the story to "look" tough.

If you do not want to train for the street then you are def in the wrong art. You need to move to the art that trains for the sport you want. Even the Gracies have said they would not take it to the ground in a street fight.

reply]
I want to train for reality, and the war stories of street figters ARE NOT REALITY. by the time a street story gets to you, BOTH sides claim to have won!! I want a verifiable testing ground, with documented results. The modern NHB MMA contests are as close as we can saftly and legaly get.

If you want to know if a style will work in the street based on how effective it is in the ring then add all kickboxing styles and practitioners, all Judo players, all full contact fighters. they may not have won at UFC but they can dominate in thier fields. (Pat Smith makes over $200,000.00 per year fighting) Then you might as well add in the different styles of Kung Fu that are full contact or wrestling styles.

Rply]
YES, thats what i want to see, a competition where ALL styles are represented!! Now, I see the Chinese arts UNDER represented, and those that are there, get pounded. Why is that?

NHB fans only see Wushu as Kung fu. Its the most common to see because its flashy and the only style thrown on TV on a constant basis. They dont realize that the word Kung Fu is broad and takes in many styles.

Reply]
why is that? Is it because we are sending so called masters to thier fights and gettig STOMPED badly? Or is it because we have sent the best we've got and got stomped badly?

NHB is not NHB. It is not the closest we can come to street fighting, also it does not take into account different fighting abilities.

Reply]
What? Its NOT the best and closest thing we have to a real fight? Then what is? Boxing? Football? What?

Mo Smith showed up at UFC with no ground fighting skills but beat Mark Coleman. Afterwards he trained for grappling with Frank Shamrock. If grappling was the better style what does the 145 pound 27 year old guy do who does not have the strength to make grappling work, or the 105 pound female do?

reply]
Do more strength training and adjust thier tactics, and probually loose anyway. hopefully, they will get attacked by an untrained thug and be able to out skill them, but if they go up against a pro, their dead with little hope.

Im not sure what your point is. Is Most Kung Fu styles best for NHB events? NO.

Reply]
WHY NOT!! Werehnt they DEVELOPED in NHB situations? All the elements for succsess are there right? If they can't even survive a mock play *(sport)* NHB match, HOW IN THE HELL ARE THEY GOING TO WORK IN THE REAL WORLD?

You say we cant compare it to street fighting, well I do not train for MMA fights, I train for self defense and for myself. I have been in street fights and won, therefore the style I do is effective.

Reply]
What makes you belive you were anything more than lucky? I've won street fight too, BEFORE MY KUNG FU TRAINING!!! Face it, if your going on some victory with an untrained or poorly traing guy you just found wandering around out there, HOW do you really know your stufff works?
Answer: YOU DON'T. Unless you have tested it against known talent, and the ring is the only place you can do that.

You need to clarify your point. Are you trying to say that Kung Fu styles are ineffective? Based on what if you dont want to look at street fighting.

reply]
I'm saying Kung Fu has a rep for being useless, and the MMa gys have TONES of evidence to support thier position. Those arguing "our" side have to skirt the issue by bringing un provable "street" accounts and glorious over puffed ancient legend into the picture in hopes of distracting the issue and facts. I want to cut through all that BS, and find out WHY WE DON'T do good in these events. ESPECIALLY since all the elements for sucsess are intertwined in most, if not all Chinese arts. Is it the teaching methods? is it the fighting tactics, is there just little interst? is there some sort of political agenda, or do we just SUCK that badly?

Can any one give me an answer, or site a NUMBER of instances where KUNG FU practitoners HAVE done good in MMA full contact NHB fights? Am I Missing something?

Royal Dragon

Shaolindynasty

07-08-2001, 07:31 PM

"I'm saying Kung Fu has a rep for being useless, and the MMa gys have TONES of evidence to support thier position. Those arguing "our" side have to skirt the issue by bringing un provable "street" accounts and glorious over puffed ancient legend into the picture in hopes of distracting the issue and facts. I want to cut through all that BS, and find out WHY WE DON'T do good in these events. ESPECIALLY since all the elements for sucsess are intertwined in most, if not all Chinese arts. Is it the teaching methods? is it the fighting tactics, is there just little interst? is there some sort of political agenda, or do we just SUCK that badly?

Can any one give me an answer, or site a NUMBER of instances where KUNG FU practitoners HAVE done good in MMA full contact NHB fights? Am I Missing something?"

Yeah you are missing all the answers to the questions we are giving you. They are all ligit answers and you are calling them bs or not acknowledgeing them. I can't believe this is the same Royal Dragon from a couple of months ago what happened to you personally to shake your faith in kungfu's ability? As an instructor you should only teach what you know absolutly for sure works if you don't trust your kungfu anymore you shouldn't be teaching it. Now if you go back and actually read the responses to the question instead of repeating the same question over and over agian you will see excellent points.
(****, I just became the victum of a Troll)

Witness the Dynasty!!!
New Site! www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

Radhnoti

07-08-2001, 08:42 PM

You know what makes this thread seem even MORE trollish? An ad in the last KFQ:
"How would a skilled Shaolin Monk do in a No-Holds-Barred match?
Join the conversation
Click FORUMS at
www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)"

:o

-Radhnoti

Royal Dragon

07-08-2001, 08:47 PM

Ok, after re reading things, I have to admit there are some good replys. BUT, I also see alot of issue skirting. My original post is in the context of the NHB MMA comps and I questioned WHY we do so poorly in them. That HAS been the basis of my pursiue in this post from the beginng. Maybe I have not made myself clear? I don't feel some of my questions have been adiquitely answered. For example, the repeated comparisen to the street, it does NOT hold or answer WHY we are NOT doing better in the MMA's.

I have pointed out, that the street is not valid because it cannot be verified, yet, I feel like I'm being trollified becaue I refuse to acknowledge it for that reason. The MMA's however CAN be verified simply by renting the fight and seeing what happened.

Also, the MMA's are open to all styles, that's what they were designed for, especially the original UFC fights.
Now, I understand the fact that ground fighting has it's dangers in the street that are not in existance in the ring, but how does that explain Muy Tai guys beating us? Where are the Kung Fu guys fighting and winning against people with Muy Tai skill in the MMA's?

Why don't we see top level Kung Fu (I belive I specified Shaolin) guys in the MMA's and doing well? No one here has directly answered the first simple question. We hold these systems in such high regaurd, yet in the closest real world testing ground we have, they either don't show, or the ones that do, get stomped by the modern boys who mix and cross train a certain and select number of arts.

Something does NOT sit well with me in regaurds to that.

I keep asking the same questions, because I'm hoping someone will respond to me with an answer that gets to the heart of the issue, and NOT bring un verifiable street fighting into this, and NOT accuse me of being a Troll because I want to sight provable grounds.

If our systems work, Why haven't we seen them doing so in theses comps? Why have we in fact seen just the opposite occure?

Site examples of Kung Fu trained fighters, of ANY Chinese style, that have done well in these MMA competitions (Besides Mike Patterson's fighters, I know about him already).

Subitai

07-09-2001, 12:56 AM

As you said...Why?

Well I can't answer why the people I personally feel could adequately represent CMA aren't fighting.

What I can say is that Your Tons and Tons of evidence does not have any Well Known High Level Sifus to my knowledge. None nada zip, if so then who? You tell us, who?

Why they don't fight? Perhaps you're correct, mabe cowardess, mabe ego, I don't know.

But to say that, the Professional MMA fighters who are the best at what they do...are fighting the best of CMA is INCORRECT.

Come on now, lets compare apples to apples. Not Grapefruits to a grape.

What I do know is, there are definately CMA out here who Any MMA in the world would NOT attempt stand up on. Immediately they would attempt to diffuse them by taking them down. That says allot

"Brilliant general"! "When the dirty ******* finds out, he'll return with his men--then we kill the all of them..." www.kwoon.tv (http://www.kwoon.tv)

reemul

07-09-2001, 11:04 AM

I havn't seen any top level Shaolin guys at these matches, and just cuz someone says they are, doesn't make it true.

Royal Dragon

07-09-2001, 03:46 PM

I cut and pasted it from another board.

""Many Kung Fu systems ARE flowwery and useless however. This is because the Chinese government has deliberatly watered down the art and turned it into a performing art. If you want to see real Kung Fu, most are still maintaning low profiles. If you understood the relation ship between China's government and it's people, you would understand why. Even when thier masters come here, they still have a lay low profile mentality, from a life time of avoiding governmental trouble, it becomes part of thier personality. Oh sure you have your Yang Jwing Mings, and Wing Lams, but for the most part all the other schools are only advertised localy. Much of the Chinese arts have a viale (?) of secracy. They don't openly display thier sklills often and rarely compete. It's something done "in the family" or competitions are locally held between schools. They have not really devulged into the international MMA scene yet.

Muy Tai Has nothing in it that's NOT found in most Chinese styles. All that body hardening, that comes from Shaolin. I have seen thier Monks break ROCKS on all parts of thier bodys. And I know thier upper level students can do so also, because I have seen it. Kung Fu guys ARE ALSO hard as iron, just like Muy Tai guys.
The reason you very rarely see Kung Fu guys win to Muy Tai is because Muy Tai fighters very rarely fight outside of thier own circutes or in competitions that don't favor them.""

Reply]
The interesting part of this, is you DO see the Chinese fighting in national and internation level competitions. My guess, is theses are San Shou fighters trained in a modern enviroment.

We are seeing two different generations, The old reality based "survival of the fittest" generation, and the modern sport competitive generation. I think the older generation, is where the "old school" styles are found. Because of living an oppressive life style, they are probually shy of the limelight a UFC or Pride would bring them as a matter of instinct due to growing up under an oppresive comunist rule. It may be just a matter of time before the younger traditionalist who were not raised in that enviroment step up and compete in majior comps.

It's a possibility anyway.

Comments anyone?

Royal Dragon

Shaolindynasty

07-09-2001, 06:31 PM

I think most "old school"practitioners and their students just don't care about NHB comps I know I don't. I also don't like it when people go out of their way to try to convience me my art is ineffective because we don't compete in NHB comps like on the kungfu board. If I do compete in a full contact event it would be San Shou or the Koushu federations Lei Tei anyways.

Witness the Dynasty!!!
New Site! www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

Royal Dragon

07-09-2001, 06:50 PM

This may be the reason I'm looking for. If most or all have the same mindset you do, then no, you won't find many Kung Fu fighters in the modern NHB events. Although, I am curious as to why the Kou Shou's and San Shou's top fighter are'nt fighting in the NHB fights from time to time.

Maybe it's for the same reason Chicago is so segrigated. I mean, we have Polish neighborhods, Italian etc. Why don't the Italians move into a polish niehborhood and vic versa? We have two Asian nieghborhoods, one Chinese, and one Korean RIGHT NEXT TO ONE ANOTHER, and you very rarely see a Korean buying a house in the Chinese Neighborhood, and you also rarely see a Chinese family buying in the Korean nieghborhood, even though, they are right next to one another sharing the same geography.

Maybe it's a nationalism thing? The MMA's are generally of Mixed national origin (seen as foring devils?), where as the Kou Shou and San Shou are predominantly asian Chinese or thier american students?

Or am I just going off the deep end clutching straws for answers?

Shaolin Dynasty, do you have a reason for NOT fighting in the MMA's? Or is this just a matter of "how things have always been done"?

How about the rest of you? Do you feel the same way as Shaolin Dynasty? If so, why?

Royal Dragon

[This message was edited by Royal Dragon on 07-10-01 at 09:56 AM.]

Dark Knight

07-09-2001, 07:40 PM

"This may be the reason I'm looking for. If most or all have the same mindset you do, then no, you won't find many Kung Fu fighters in the modern NHB events. Although, I am curious as to why the Kou Shou's and San Shou's top fighter are'nt fighting in the NHB fights from time to time."

Its prob the same reason that Pat Smith didnt continue with NHB. He was making more money in Kickboxing type events.

People find their nich and stay with it. Top competitors in a field like what they are doing. Why hasnt Tyson shown up at UFC?

Also they are top in thier fields because they trained specifically for it. NHB fighters train specifically for NHB. Mark Coleman changed his training from Ground and pound to improve his game in NHB. A top Kung Fu guy, or Boxer or Kickboxer would have to change their training to fight NHB. (Thats why they call it MMA)

Royal Dragon

07-09-2001, 08:07 PM

I think NITCH is probually the main reason, it makes the most sense to me. If this is the case, then it is only a mater of time before some real talent gets out there and does well in the NHB comps.

Oh, by the way, TYSON does'nt fight NHB because they'd TEAR his canabalistic a$$ apart there!!!! Either that, or the NHB MMA won't let him fight because they are afraid of becomming his dinner!!!

RD

Dark Knight

07-09-2001, 08:13 PM

Tyson would not do well in NHB unless he spent some serious time training. But the money is not there for him.

There is a guy out of Mass that fights NHB, He was Kung Fu, Royce beat him in an early UFC, but he still gets around to the other tournaments.

Your right, eventually someone will cross over, but as long as they have their nich thats where they will stay. But the NHB events are no longer about style but training.

namkuen

07-12-2001, 08:38 AM

I am a well trained Hung Gar practitioner of more than 20 years. I wouldn't participate in NHB/UFC competitions for two primary reasons.

1. From what I understand the rules are too limited. There are techniques that I would need and want to use that would probably be illegal.

2. Many of the techniques that I would use could be very dangerous if not fatal. I have no desire to inflict such pain and mayhem on anyone.

Finally, please read the statement below!

Peace!!!

DWR

One who conquers others is strong, but one who conquers himself is mighty! Lao Tzu

Royal Dragon

07-12-2001, 08:24 PM

You said,

2. Many of the techniques that I would use could be very dangerous if not fatal. I have no desire to inflict such pain and mayhem on anyone.

I think this is one of the reasons as well. most NHB fighters generally punch, kick or grappel. the take down and wrestle phenomenon is directly related to the fighters themselves NOT wanting to hurt thier opponents. Every one here should be able to get behind a guy and smash thier floating ribs into the kidney, right? I'm sure the modern boys can do this as well. In fact, I distinctly remember a Pancration promoter asking that this NOT be done, even though it is allowed. I think the modern NHB MMA fighters are trained in less lethal kick boxing BJJ skills and are therfore less afraid of actually killing or seriously injuring thier opponents, where as We ARE afraid of that.

I remember lossing a full contact (Mid west rules) fight once. I actually got slaughtered. BUT during that fight, I had access to my opponents back many times. I could easily hit the back of the neck and floating rib or spine if I wanted too. I did'nt because rules and humanity prevented me from doing so. I had many oppertunitys for trips and take downs that I just let slide because of the rules. BUT, if it HAD been a NHB or close to it, I STILL would not have taken many of those shots because I would not want to be responsible for maiming my friends and brothers. (Please keep in mind I was knocked out with the first punch through gear, so I'm NOT trying to say I could have won under different rules, I was still outclassed in this fight, I'm trying to make a different point.)

Well, I'm outta time now!!

Comments anyone?

Royal Dragon

Lost_Disciple

07-12-2001, 08:40 PM

So let's sum it up.
The top 10 reasons good Kung Fu guys haven't shown up in NHB:
1. Don't know about it.
2. Don't want bragging rights.
3. Don't want to promote another organization besides kung fu/san da/san shou/kuo shu.
4. Don't train that way (hard enough, ground oriented, or just not a professional athelete).
5. Too many rules.
6. Don't want to kill anybody.
7. Don't enjoy fighting.
8. Don't care about competition/sport.
9. Don't have the oportunity to enter.
10. Aren't ready yet.

Decent summary of what we've been discussing?
.

Royal Dragon

07-13-2001, 12:27 AM

That and not being able to FIND a Sifu willing to or capable of training someone to fight at THAT level.

I have been studying this problem for a wile now, and I have come to the conclusion that most Kung Fu schools drag out the beginning training so all the real hard core fight types leave and end up in BJJ or Lion's Den type schools. Plus, I don't think most Sifu's are capable of training someone to that level, or if they are, they lack the desire.

The real talent leaves and the desire to train them is'nt there if they stayed anyway. And those few San Shou/Kou Shou fighters that ARE at that level fall into a nitch and just don't bother to think out side the lines and fight out of thier norm.

Blammo guys, we finnaly figured it out!!!

Shaolindynasty

07-13-2001, 01:09 AM

Actually for me it is not a nationalistic thing for me I am a white American and my Sifu is Brazilian and his Sifu was a Brazilian who learned in Taiwan. Actually my Sigung avocated going out and starting fights in the streets and bars if you felt the art doesn't work and see for yourself. I feel like Kungfu is the art I practice so it is the art I am going to promote. If we compete in NHB comps and do great that will help promote NHB comps but if we fight in our own venues and put on a great show that will do more for Kungfu in the long line. Also if I need to prove something to myself there is plenty of people in Kankakee for me to fight I don't need to pay alot of expense to go compete in faraway tournaments for this. Me competing in CMA events would be for the reason of meeting new people that have a passion like I do for this art not a proving ground.

Witness the Dynasty!!!
New Site! www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

reemul

07-14-2001, 03:04 AM

If your gonna fight me and your intent is to draw
blood, I'm not going limit myself. If your intent is hostile, I'll show you what hostility is all about.

Royal Dragon

07-14-2001, 08:30 AM

Uh reemul,
I'm sure we all appreciate the comment, but what does your post have to do with answering the question of "Why don't you see many Kung Fu guys in the modern MMA NHB competitions, and why don't the few that do fight, do poorly"?

Royal Dragon

07-15-2001, 04:12 AM

Check this post out. http://members.boardhost.com/xinyi/msg/2200.html

Comments anyone?

Royal Dragon

Royaldragon.4dw.com

Royal Dragon

07-15-2001, 04:26 AM

I am wondering how many out there feel the same as this individual. I know that this trend cannot be good for Kung Fu. I think we will need to see Kung Fu guys doing good against the NHB MMA crowd. Just in the interest of promoting our art.

Coments anyone?

Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

Royaldragon.4dw.com

Lost_Disciple

07-15-2001, 07:51 AM

umm did you get my e-mail Royal Dragon?

I kinda think the fact that we're not well represented isn't great for business with the people who wanna become fighters. However, with the baby boomers and people looking for a new hobby, it might be a plus.

Honestly, I think a lot of the kung fu higher-ups could care less.

Wrestelen

01-23-2010, 06:43 AM

Hey,
I can try to do a little answer to the question asked in the title of the topic.
I spent time in grappling and muay thai training for 3 years, and fight in MMA with friends, and now i am learning wing tsun.

I don't know shaolin kung fu and other sort of kung fu, so i cannot talk about it.
About wing tsun, every thing you do is what you want to do when you are attacked for real in street. So the goal is more defensive, that means :
-You don't want to go to the ground with your opponent, not like in grappling, but stay stand up, to be able to escape. When your opponent is in the ground and you are not, in wing tsun, it is like you win, because in real then you can escape.
-The kick in the groin is really important in the system, every step you do is about that, and it changes a lot of things if you don't allow to kick in the groin.
-you are always forwarding, you dont go back, it is not like in the ring where you have time to do a long war, it is about a short, expeditive war.

MMA is the total opposite that wing tsun. Is tried wing tsun in MMA with friends, it works, but in competition, it is unusefull, or usefull but not determinent. Because if you put your opponent on the ground and you are not with him, the how can you do a submission ? If you are really close to the guy, sure wing tsun technics works but you are not allowed to kick or punch him on the groind, so the blocks you learnt are unusefull. In a street fight, a close range combat can be hard without rules (headshots, groin, poke the eyes ...) but in mma, sometimes it is like to have a rest to be at this distant.

MMA works in street but it is not the most adapted. Because there is too much grappling in the system. I like grappling, but sometimes it is dangerous to grapple a guy in street, because you can be blocked with him, or fall to the ground, really dangerous if it is a generalized fight with many people of if the guy have may be a knife or somehting else. Look the Gracie fights at the beginning of the UFC, sometimes Royce spent 3 minutes before submitting a guy who doesnt know the ground fight. Do you think you cand do that every time in street ? Sometimes in street you juste have 4-5 secondes to fight and escape really fast if it doesnt work...

David Jamieson

01-23-2010, 06:48 AM

bwahahaahaha.

Mr. one post here would like to teach you all a lesson here. :rolleyes:

Sal Canzonieri

01-23-2010, 09:54 AM

Hello,
I have been perusing some other boards of the MMA variety lately, and I have to tell you, the opinion of Kung Fu's abilitys is VERY VERY low. It seem's the consensus is that Kung Fu (regaurdless of style) is nothing more than some sort of martial based Yoga.

They can (and do) site instance after instace where kung Fu guys get slaughtered in NHB fights. They poke fun at the whole Eye poking/throat ripping thing and just about every thing else.

My question is this,
Can traditionally trainned Kung Fu fighters hold thier own against todays MMA fighters. If so, site examples of this occuring, I need examples that the MMA crowd would hve to admit to

Also, why do yu think we have NOT seen a much greater number of traditionally trained Kung Fu fighters even IN the ring let alone doing well?. Don't give me Budhist religious philosiphy as reasons, many of Kung Fu's systems were developed by ruthless undergroud societs and many family systems exist that surley would NOT fall under religious influance, right?

Lastly, when do you think, or what would it take before we DO see a larger number of traditional Kung Fu fighters doing well in the rings of NHB/MMA?

Royal Dragon

Ps, I'm posting here as apposed to the Kung Fu forum, because I am looking for serious disusion, not a bashing war from the MMA's or responses from trolls.

It's a marketing campaign, plain and simple.
If they didn't do so, no one would ever care about MMA.

They started rumors that KF (and Karate by the way) sucks and that their practitioners were being "slaughtered" in MMA matches.

Now, as everyone in marketing knows, if you say something often enough and in as many places as possible, the implanted rumor or false truth will spread by word of mouth and become "virtually" True".

Name ONE person that is exclusively a CMA practitioner that was publicly "slaughtered" in MMA matches.
There are none, since none entered any such tournaments.

CMA has had MMA matches of their own for hundreds of years, first in the Leitai platform matches, and then in the Sanshou matches.

Put a person that was trained exclusively in MMA into a full contact Sanshou match following rules that he never learned and methods he never trained in and lets see who well he does.
And guess what, no MMA person has every entered any such matches.

I've beaten MMA trained people on tour with my band in other countries, friendly matches, but I still was able to, me then in my late 40s, they in their late 20s. One was even Chinese.

See, MMA is a subset of CMA anyways, there is nothing they do that was not already done before.

And, now that MMA has been around long enough, they already are losing students as they get into their 30s because they can't take the Gladiator type training forever.
And guess where they are going to? Traditional Martial Arts schools.
Ask around, I've been hearing from different schools that enrollment is up more than ever since last year as MMA has matured and people who became bored of it or who damaged their bodies by constant wear.

What is good about CMA is that it has a health component (qigong) that is wedded to a self defense component, and thus can be used by all types of people, strong and weak, young and old, ill or healthy.
MMA can not offer that, it is the domain of the "super guy" in his 20s and early 30s, there is a big drop off after that.

CMA was created to deal with sudden ambush, to get out of the way of the incoming attack and trapping it so that the attacker hurts himself.
MMA has nothing to do with that, it's a sport.
So, it IS comparing apples and oranges (more like apples and rocks).

Case in point, there was an MMA champ in Atlantic City on line, he somehow got into an altercation, and the other person, much smaller in height and built knocked him out with a strike. This was about 3-4 years ago.
So there.

Hardwork108

01-23-2010, 12:59 PM

Hardwork108

01-23-2010, 01:04 PM

bwahahaahaha.

Mr. one post here would like to teach you all a lesson here. :rolleyes:

He made many valid points.

What is WRONG with you?

Why make unprovoked comments like that to a newbie who put forward a valid take on the subject matter of this thread?

Do you have that much hate inside you?

:rolleyes:

Hardwork108

01-23-2010, 01:09 PM

It's a marketing campaign, plain and simple.
If they didn't do so, no one would ever care about MMA.

They started rumors that KF (and Karate by the way) sucks and that their practitioners were being "slaughtered" in MMA matches.

Now, as everyone in marketing knows, if you say something often enough and in as many places as possible, the implanted rumor or false truth will spread by word of mouth and become "virtually" True".

Name ONE person that is exclusively a CMA practitioner that was publicly "slaughtered" in MMA matches.
There are none, since none entered any such tournaments.

CMA has had MMA matches of their own for hundreds of years, first in the Leitai platform matches, and then in the Sanshou matches.

Put a person that was trained exclusively in MMA into a full contact Sanshou match following rules that he never learned and methods he never trained in and lets see who well he does.
And guess what, no MMA person has every entered any such matches.

I've beaten MMA trained people on tour with my band in other countries, friendly matches, but I still was able to, me then in my late 40s, they in their late 20s. One was even Chinese.

See, MMA is a subset of CMA anyways, there is nothing they do that was not already done before.

And, now that MMA has been around long enough, they already are losing students as they get into their 30s because they can't take the Gladiator type training forever.
And guess where they are going to? Traditional Martial Arts schools.
Ask around, I've been hearing from different schools that enrollment is up more than ever since last year as MMA has matured and people who became bored of it or who damaged their bodies by constant wear.

What is good about CMA is that it has a health component (qigong) that is wedded to a self defense component, and thus can be used by all types of people, strong and weak, young and old, ill or healthy.
MMA can not offer that, it is the domain of the "super guy" in his 20s and early 30s, there is a big drop off after that.

CMA was created to deal with sudden ambush, to get out of the way of the incoming attack and trapping it so that the attacker hurts himself.
MMA has nothing to do with that, it's a sport.
So, it IS comparing apples and oranges (more like apples and rocks).

Case in point, there was an MMA champ in Atlantic City on line, he somehow got into an altercation, and the other person, much smaller in height and built knocked him out with a strike. This was about 3-4 years ago.
So there.

Also a great post. When one looks into the story while taking into account the economics/marketing/money trail of the whole MMA machine, things become clearer.

Actually, looking into any other event, including political and military, using a similar perspective will also clarify the TRUTH behind whatever event one is looking at.

HW108

Songshan

01-26-2010, 01:11 AM

In regards to Royal Dragons request for info. A lot of traditional martial arts practitioners wouldn't touch the MMA competitions because once you start putting rules, gloves and restrictions it's not a NHB fight. Traditional martial arts was meant for the ultimate self defense....ending for one result....usually death.

That being said, I also think because out of thousands and thousands of martial art schools that are out there only a few are good. If you are just learning form after form with no concept of application then there is a problem. How many forms do we learn where we truly understand and comprehend the techniques?

Again, the UFC/MMA have just about enough drama and phony stuff in it as professional entertainment wrestling. To be quite honest NHB matches and events are down right illegal in most states. Not everyone who learns the traditional styles are eager to go jump in MMA/NHB matches. It's more personal and goes beyond winning matches.

Scott R. Brown

01-26-2010, 02:06 AM

It's a marketing campaign, plain and simple.
If they didn't do so, no one would ever care about MMA.....

....Case in point, there was an MMA champ in Atlantic City on line, he somehow got into an altercation, and the other person, much smaller in height and built knocked him out with a strike. This was about 3-4 years ago.
So there.

Also a great post. When one looks into the story while taking into account the economics/marketing/money trail of the whole MMA machine, things become clearer.

Actually, looking into any other event, including political and military, using a similar perspective will also clarify the TRUTH behind whatever event one is looking at.

HW108

I have been acquainted with John Hackleman (Chuck Liddell's trainer) for many many years. Back in the beginning of Gracie's MMA onslaught John was a West Coast full contact fighter/Champion.

On one occasion during a conversation about MMA John mentioned that he had tried to participate in the first few Gracie events and was not permitted to compete!

So taking on all comers suddenly looked a lot like stacking the deck!

Hitman

01-26-2010, 01:03 PM

Royal Dragon
"My question is this,
Can traditionally trainned Kung Fu fighters hold thier own against todays MMA fighters. If so, site examples of this occuring, I need examples that the MMA crowd would hve to admit to"

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFC_7

"UFC 7 featured an eight-man tournament, a UFC Superfight Championship match between reigning UFC Champion Ken Shamrock and UFC 6 tournament winner Oleg Taktarov, and three alternate fights, which were not shown on the live pay-per-view broadcast. The tournament had no weight classes, or weight limits. Each match had no rounds, but a 20 minute time limit was imposed for the quarterfinal and semi-final round matches in the tournament. The finals of the tournament and the Superfight had a 30 minute time limit and, if necessary, a five minute overtime.

Consistent with early UFC events, the time limit was not followed as the Superfight only featured a three minute overtime, perhaps due to pay-per-view time constraints. Regardless of this, the show ran over its three hour pay-per-view slot, cutting off viewers from seeing the final match. The referee for the night was 'Big' John McCarthy. Michael Buffer served as the guest ring announcer for the night.

Marco Ruas won the tournament by defeating Paul Varelans.

[edit] Results
[edit] Alternate bouts
Onassis Parungao vs. Francesco Maturi
Parungao wins by submission due to strikes at 5:26. "

2) http://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-1241.html

"This was on KFO about "O" Onassis from kwoon when he fought in UFC 7.I thought it would be cool to talk about here with our members.

http://cykwoon.freewebspace.com/images/o_oct1_tek.jpg

http://cykwoon.freewebspace.com/images/o_oct2_tek.jpg

Here's what "O" himself had to say.

I was doing what I had to in order to win. I didn’t think specifically about any style…and why would I? But Yes, during the stand up portion of the fight I did use some Hung Gar to lay hands on him to set up the takedown.

Besides, if Kung fu means “Hard Work” then everybody is doing KF. Haha.

In 1995, I was the smallest guy in the UFC 7 tourney = 180lbs (at that time there were not weight divisions). Everybody else was at least 250lbs +. I felt lucky to be picked out of 5000 applicants anyway. I won my alternate match but never got the chance to move on because nobody in the main draw got injured.

The only thing that P-ssed me off was the head guy from SEG sports and Don Wilson had bet against me. After the fight at the dinner they smiled at me and said, “Hey you made me lose money, I bet against you”. I laughed, but inside I was saying good for you Bast-ard!

Shortly after that I was offered a fully paid ride to go to Japan and be in a training camp to fight in the Pancrase. The mans name was Takeya Oitate. I would have done it too, but I had just gotten married. Actually the UFC fight was 8 days before my wedding. Luckily I didn’t have any marks for the pictures. But still, there was no way after just getting married that I was gonna go alone to Japan. Haha, don’t turn me loose in one of those bath houses w/ all the hot women! Haha, I would’ve had a hard time staying faithful.

Then I went to the Russian Ultimate II. It was a two day tourney and I made it past the 1st round. On the second day, I lost to Richardo Morais, actually, I tapped early out of frustration. I wasn’t actually hurt, I just never trained to fight anyone as big as him before. The announcer questioned me afterward and wondered why I stopped it. The knees weren’t actually hurting me, they were hitting me on the top of the head with his meaty part of his thigh. And I could have escaped from it easily. The plain hard fact was, I didn’t have it in me to finish the fight after I was going to escape or reverse it, so I decided I wasn’t ready and just tapped.

It will always be a skeleton in the closet for me. But at least Richardo went on to win the whole thing, so for that I feel better.

It’s been almost ten years since then and I’ve matured allot. For sure I’m a much better fighter now then I was back then. But for me, the more I train, the less I have to prove. Does that sound odd?

I’m mostly a HG kung fu guy now I guess, but I use the Filippino mentality of applying it halo halo…it means “mix mix”. In other words, I might be doing kf, but I’ll do whatever it takes to win if I have to.

Last thoughts,

You have to understand that fighting in these events is a different reality"

3) http://cykwoon.freewebspace.com/about.html

"School Origins
Cheng Yee Hung Gar Kung Fu School

Onassis Parungao "Gao Bat Long" has been practicing martial arts for over 25 yrs and had the pleasure of being an instructor at Lam Kwong Wings school in Sunnyvale California <http://www.wle.com/kungfu/grandmaster_winglam>

During his time Gao Sifu was a senior student who aided Lam Si Gung in many demonstrations and won full contact fighting championships in his name.
Originally, Gao Sifu traveled west to further his ongoing training under Lam Si Gung. After many years of training, he decided it was time to return to his roots and share his knowledge for the benefit of the people and for the posterity of the styles. This has always been his desire.

We teach two types of Chinese martial arts, Southern Hung Gar and Tai Chi Chuan. Both of which are comprehensive systems, including empty-hand techniques, weapons, lion dance and internal power.

Instructors
Parungao Sifu

Onassis Parungao was born in Rota Spain 1/2 Spanish & 1/2 Filipino descent (Mestiso) These are the STRONGEST experiences in my Martial background:

1.Tung Kong Kalan (Arnis de Mano) Began training at age 8. A Philippine empty hand fighting art.

2. Judo

3. Wrestling Team Co-Capt. Team State Champions, Bronze Medal individual

4. NHB in an Octagon 3x's:
* UFC 7 as an alternate 1-0
* The Russian Ultimate II 1-1

5. San Shou Chinese Full Contact Free Fighting in the US.
* Champion 85kg, Ohio US Invitational 97'. John Ervin tourney
* Champion 85kg, 1st International Eagle Cup 98'. Lily Lau in San Francisco
* Trained at Shaolin Temple and certified in San Da 98'.

6. Sun Tai Chi and Yang

7. Hung Gar Kuen kung fu since 84'

Chinese Martial/Arts are his primary passion

Jon Mroz Si Hing"

GeneChing

02-05-2010, 10:33 AM

UFC 111
We've discussed Dan Hardy here (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55693).

UFC 111 St-Pierre vs. Hardy (http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=EventDetail.home&eid=2747)
March 27 2010 Prudential Center Newark, New Jersey
Two world titles will be on the line for the first time in 2010 when the Ultimate Fighting Championship returns to the Prudential Center in Newark, New Jersey for UFC 111: St-Pierre vs Hardy. UFC welterweight champion Georges St-Pierre has been unstoppable since regaining the title in 2008, and he aims on extending his reign and his six fight winning streak against British bomber Dan “The Outlaw” Hardy, who is unbeaten in the UFC and fresh off wins over Marcus Davis and Mike Swick.

Also, former two-time heavyweight champion Frank Mir will attempt to make history when he squares off against number one contender Shane Carwin in a clash of the titans that will leave the winner with the interim UFC heavyweight championship belt. UFC 111 – Saturday, March 27th, live on Pay-Per-View from Newark, New Jersey.

Tickets now on sale at Ticketmaster.com

The official host hotel for UFC® 111 is the Affinia Manhattan. Reserve rooms before February 25 to take advantage of the special UFC group rate. Call 888-AFFINIA or visit www.affinia.com and use group code ULTIMA.

Fight Card

Georges St-Pierre
Rush
5' 10" (178 cm)
170 (77 kg)
19-2-0

Dan Hardy
The Outlaw
6' 0" (183 cm)
170 (77 kg)
23-6-0, 1 NC

Frank Mir
6' 3" (191 cm)
240 (109 kg)
13-4-0

Shane Carwin
6' 5" (196 cm)
265 (120 kg)
11-0-0

Martin Kampmann
The Hitman
6' 0" (183 cm)
170 (77 kg)
16-3-0

Ben Saunders
Killa B
6' 3" (191 cm)
170 (77 kg)
8-1-2

Jon Fitch
6' 0" (183 cm)
170 (77 kg)
24-3-0, 1 NC

Thiago Alves
Pit bull
5' 9" (175 cm)
170 (77 kg)
22-5-0

Jim Miller
5' 8" (173 cm)
155 (70 kg)
16-2-0

Mark Bocek
5' 8" (173 cm)
155 (70 kg)
8-2-0

Nate Diaz
6' 0" (183 cm)
155 (70 kg)
11-5-0

Rory Markham
5' 11" (180 cm)
170 (77 kg)
16-5-0

Ricardo Almeida
Big Dog
6' 0" (183 cm)
185 (84 kg)
11-3-0

Matt Brown
The Immortal
6' 0" (183 cm)
170 (77 kg)
13-7-0

Kurt Pellegrino
Batman
5' 8" (173 cm)
155 (70 kg)
20-4-0

Fabricio Camoes
Morango
5' 10" (178 cm)
155 (70 kg)
10-4-1

Rodney Wallace
Shonuff The Master
5' 9" (175 cm)
205 (93 kg)
9-1-0

Jared Hamman
Switch
6' 3" (191 cm)
205 (93 kg)
11-2-0

Rousimar Palhares
Toquinho
5' 8" (173 cm)
185 (84 kg)
19-2-0

Tomasz Drwal
Gorilla
6' 0" (183 cm)
185 (84 kg)
17-2-0

Matthew Riddle
6' 1" (185 cm)
170 (77 kg)
3-1-0

Ricardo Funch
Golden Boy
5' 10" (178 cm)
170 (77 kg)
7-1-0

Nick Ospiczak also claims Shaolin kung fu as his foundation - here's his official site (http://www.slicknickmma.com/).

Nick Osipczak Vs. Rick Story A Maybe For UFC 112 (http://www.fightline.com/fl/news/2010/0203/481623/ufc/index.shtml)
By Mark Wayne | February 03, 2010
Nick Osipczak Vs. Rick Story A Maybe For UFC 112 MMAJunkie.com is reporting that "The Ultimate Fighter: United States Vs. United Kingdom" alum and Team Rough House product Nick Osipczak (5-0) could take on fellow welterweight up and comer Rick Story (9-3) at UFC 112 in April. The bout agreements have yet to be signed but the fight is reportedly close to being set.

Hailing from London and fighting out of Nottingham, England, Nick Osipczak looks to continue his impressive UFC run by scoring a win over the very tough Rick Story. Formerly a professional gambler and Shaolin Kung Fu practitioner, Osipczak is also a training partner to UK standouts Paul Daley, Ross Pearson, Andre Winner and welterweight title contender Dan Hardy. He last fought at "UFC 105: Couture Vs. Vera" where he removed Matt Riddle from undefeated status via TKO due to strikes.

Rick Story has earned his share of accolades during his three fight tenure with the UFC. At UFC 103 the Braveheart Gym Fight Club representative earned Submission of the Night and Fight of the Night in a memorable scrap with Brian Foster. The fight was so memorable that it made it to number seven on the UFC's "Ten Best Fights of 2009" list. Story is coming off of a hard fought unanimous decision win over Jesse Lennox.

UFC 112 will take place on April 10 at the Ferrari World outdoor concert arena on Yas Island in Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates. Headlining the card will be two title matches pitting Anderson Silva against Vitor Belfort for the middleweight crown and BJ Penn against Frankie Edgar for the lightweight strap.

Sardinkahnikov

02-13-2010, 04:37 PM

It's a marketing campaign, plain and simple.
If they didn't do so, no one would ever care about MMA.

They started rumors that KF (and Karate by the way) sucks and that their practitioners were being "slaughtered" in MMA matches.

Now, as everyone in marketing knows, if you say something often enough and in as many places as possible, the implanted rumor or false truth will spread by word of mouth and become "virtually" True".

Name ONE person that is exclusively a CMA practitioner that was publicly "slaughtered" in MMA matches.
There are none, since none entered any such tournaments.

CMA has had MMA matches of their own for hundreds of years, first in the Leitai platform matches, and then in the Sanshou matches.

Put a person that was trained exclusively in MMA into a full contact Sanshou match following rules that he never learned and methods he never trained in and lets see who well he does.
And guess what, no MMA person has every entered any such matches.

I've beaten MMA trained people on tour with my band in other countries, friendly matches, but I still was able to, me then in my late 40s, they in their late 20s. One was even Chinese.

See, MMA is a subset of CMA anyways, there is nothing they do that was not already done before.

And, now that MMA has been around long enough, they already are losing students as they get into their 30s because they can't take the Gladiator type training forever.
And guess where they are going to? Traditional Martial Arts schools.
Ask around, I've been hearing from different schools that enrollment is up more than ever since last year as MMA has matured and people who became bored of it or who damaged their bodies by constant wear.

What is good about CMA is that it has a health component (qigong) that is wedded to a self defense component, and thus can be used by all types of people, strong and weak, young and old, ill or healthy.
MMA can not offer that, it is the domain of the "super guy" in his 20s and early 30s, there is a big drop off after that.

CMA was created to deal with sudden ambush, to get out of the way of the incoming attack and trapping it so that the attacker hurts himself.
MMA has nothing to do with that, it's a sport.
So, it IS comparing apples and oranges (more like apples and rocks).

Case in point, there was an MMA champ in Atlantic City on line, he somehow got into an altercation, and the other person, much smaller in height and built knocked him out with a strike. This was about 3-4 years ago.
So there.

"If we look at the world we see arts for sale. Men use equipment to sell their own selves.
As if with the nut and the flower, the nut has become less then the flower.
In this kind of strategy, both those teaching and those learning the way are concerned with
colouring and showing off their technique, trying to hasten the bloom of the flower.
They speak of “this Dojo” and “that Dojo”. They are looking for profit.

Someone once said “Immature strategy is the cause of grief”
That was a true saying"

(Miyamoto Musashi)

GeneChing

03-02-2012, 10:34 AM

If Pandolfini really ever makes something of himself, we'll peel this off for his own thread.

Local MMA fighters eyeing breakthrough fights this weekend WITH VIDEOS (http://www.trentonian.com/articles/2012/03/02/sports/doc4f502a3adec58158380539.txt)
Published: Friday, March 02, 2012
By KEVIN MALONEY
For The Trentonian

The paths to mixed martial arts careers couldn’t have been more divergent for Mike Pandolfini and Matt Rizzo.

Rizzo was a decorated high school wrestler who split his high school years between Harry S. Truman in Levittown and Lakewood High. After his freshman and sop****re years at Truman where he was a sectional champion, a district runner-up and a region place winner, he transferred to Lakewood where he went on to become a two-time District 24 champion, a two-time Region 6 champion and recorded consecutive fifth-place finishes at the NJSIAA tournament in Atlantic City in his junior and senior years.

“It was a natural transition,” said Rizzo, who went on to wrestle for two years collegiately at East Stroudsburg University, said. “I was teaching a wrestling class at Revolution Academy (in Levittown) and they asked me if I wanted to try Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. The rest is history.”

Pandolfini always had an admiration for martial arts from a distance but was a three-sport athlete growing up in Hamilton, opting to focus on basketball while at Steinert. Shortly after his senior season, the 1998 Steinert graduate knew that if he was ever going to get involved in martial arts that there was no better time.

“I actually got into Shaolin Kung Fu because I had no idea what anything was,” Pandolfini said with a laugh. “Basically I just opened the Yellow Pages and it was the only thing that I saw to be honest with you. It was in Hightstown, right above the Shoe Buckle.”

From there, Pandolfini, a health and physical education teacher at Trenton High-West Campus, took up boxing at Goss & Goss on Center Street in Trenton. He ran into an old friend who introduced him to Jeet Kune Do, a discipline created by Bruce Lee that Lee referred to as “the art of expressing the body.”

Five years later, Pandolfini and some friends began the transition to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. There were times when they worked out in the basement at McCorristin (now Trenton Catholic Academy) or at Veteran’s Park. Basically wherever they could find the space they would train.

The group eventually went their separate ways and for a span of two years Pandolfini found himself working out in his own basement. In 2006, he met Brad Daddis, the lead instructor at Daddis Fight Camps, with who he’s remained with since.

In addition to a location in Philadelphia and another in Cherry Hill, Daddis Fight Camps just opened up a third location in Hamilton off of the East State Street extension, where Pandolfini is the manager. Continued...

While their paths may have been remarkably different, both Rizzo and Pandolfini’s careers will intertwine this weekend.

Pandolfini (who sported a 6-1 amateur record) will be making his professional debut this evening at Harrah’s Chester Casino on XFE: Cage Wars 13. Rizzo will fight tomorrow night at Harrah’s Chester on XFE: Cage Wars 14 in what he hopes will be his last amateur fight before he turns professional.

Pandolfini will fight Tom Backman (2-2) in a welterweight fight scheduled for three, five-minute rounds. Rizzo (3-0) is slated to do battle with Andrew Aguilar (4-1) in a bantamweight fight scheduled for three, three-minute rounds.

Following a three-year hiatus following his first amateur fight - a loss, though under shady circumstances where Pandolfini was asked to fight a different opponent with a 15-pound weight advantage two fights before his debut fight (which is extremely uncommon, even in the oft-changing amateur ranks) – he’s rallied to win three straight, the first two coming in the first of a first round TKO and a first round submission. The most recent was a unanimous decision victory over Jamal McKellar in June, 2011.

“The worst part about leading up to a fight, to be quite honest with you, is cutting weight,” Pandolfini said. “Cutting weight is literally a science. I was 191 pounds on New Years Eve. And I’m fighting at 155 pounds. You’re talking pretty much a 40-pound cut in 60 days. If you don’t what you’re doing, No. 1 you’re not going to make weight and No. 2 you’re going to fight like crap. In 2012 I have not had red meat, I’ve not had pasta, bread, dairy and anything liquid besides water or Pedialyte. If it’s not from the Earth I haven’t eaten it.”

Rizzo had been slated to fight Feb. 11 at Worlds Gym in Northeast Philadelphia but his opponent backed out not long before the fight. So he stayed in training camp and took the next available fight he could get.

A victory increases the likelihood of earning his professional card, though that decision will ultimately be made by Greg Sirb, the Executive Director of the Pennsylvania Athletic Commission, who takes into account the number of amateur fights, the quality of a fighter’s opponents and what level the fighter is before determining to approve or deny their professional license.

Pandolfini said that regardless of the outcome of tonight’s fight, he plans to keep fighting professionally until it’s no longer fun. Once it’s no longer fun, he’ll continue to stay active by training and cornering up-and-coming fighters.

For Rizzo, who trains at Revolution Academy two sessions a day for up to five hours with manager/coach Anthony Colantuono and the rest of the dedicated team, the plan is that tomorrow night will be a stepping stone towards making a living fighting.

“The ultimate goal is to be able to make a living for myself and my family,” Rizzo said. “If the UFC were to come into the picture at some point, obviously that’s the ultimate goal. It would be great to make it to the UFC but if I can make a living fighting with different organizations around the world then I’m down for that, too.”

You can follow Mike Pandolfini and Daddis Fight Camps on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/pages/Daddis-Fight-Camps/91146282303

and Matt “Razor Sharp” Rizzo on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/pages/Matt-Razor-Sharp-Rizzo/178447865597311.