The lunge punch

[Kinjit]

Alot of traditional arts seem to train against this almost exlusively. Why?

[SevenStar]

probably because it's a common sense way to punch. of course, if you're not trained the punch may be sloppy, but you'd defend it the same. boxing, karate, kung fu, etc. all have variations of that punch, although the mechanics may differ some. Also, most schools teach defense against a haymaker - it just a commonly seen punch. many styles have a more refined version - a hook. mechanics are different, principle is the same.

[Kinjit]

Hook? We must not be thinking about the same thing... I'm talking about a straight(generally) thrusting punch made with a _passing_ step. Doesn't have to be straight ofcourse, but that's the most common I've seen. Hm. Right overhand and it's less refined cousins seems more common and natural to me,as far as real punches in real fights go.

[Chang Style Novice]

Kinjit - my read of 7*'s post is that he's not saying the hook is physically like a lunge punch, but that the hook bears the same relationship to a haymaker as a step-jab type punch does to a sloppy lunge. That is to say, it's a more powerful and efficient refinement of the same basic, instinctive motion.

so

haymaker+practice=hook
lunge punch+practice=step jab

Newbies learn to defend against the sloppy versions because they are


a - easier to defend
b - more likely to encounter them in a self-defence situation (most folks aren't trained fighters)

As a student progresses, more skillful adversaries become accounted for and they learn to defend against the better techniques (probably the same kind of defence techs will work, but they have to become faster, more precise, etc.)

[Kinjit]

My point is that they don't stop doing it as they advance in rank - they still train against lunge punches from across the room. It's not sloppy in itself, its usually done in a very precise movement.

[rogue]

I've seen that too. Usually done that way because that's what the instructor learned. Sometimes it's done to give a student a human dummy to work against to learn a new sequence. The next step should be drills and sparring to really learn how to make it work.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Kinjit - my read of 7*'s post is that he's not saying the hook is physically like a lunge punch, but that the hook bears the same relationship to a haymaker as a step-jab type punch does to a sloppy lunge. That is to say, it's a more powerful and efficient refinement of the same basic, instinctive motion.

so

haymaker+practice=hook
lunge punch+practice=step jab

Newbies learn to defend against the sloppy versions because they are


a - easier to defend
b - more likely to encounter them in a self-defence situation (most folks aren't trained fighters)

As a student progresses, more skillful adversaries become accounted for and they learn to defend against the better techniques (probably the same kind of defence techs will work, but they have to become faster, more precise, etc.)

right on.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Kinjit
My point is that they don't stop doing it as they advance in rank - they still train against lunge punches from across the room. It's not sloppy in itself, its usually done in a very precise movement.

My guess there is that it's because that's how the particular style throws a lunge punch. you won't see thai boxers do anything like that. Also, at many schools I've seen, they claim to train defenses against a double leg, when in actuality, it's just a sloppy tackle. Because that's the way that either they or their style does it.


Oftentimes, what you see on the street will not look like the things you are training against in class, but the principle behind the technique is the same. This is where the value of sparring comes into play. although you are still defending against the technique as your school does it, you will still be training to defend against the principle behind that technique in real time with other factors involved.

[Cyborg]

I think most schools use it because it's the easiest one to defend against. And while some graduate to other attacks that are more difficult to defend against, many don't. But with 90% of the schools being McDojo's, what do you expect? (that figure based on all the schools I've been to, including the current one)

[David Jamieson]

Let's not forget too, that you can't start beginners on advanced materials.

You'll be training against lunge punches for a good deal of time before you start defending against hooks, crosses and uppercuts (nevermind the specialty punches of some styles)

It is the easiest to defend against and it is the logical starting point to get the student to understand how to pick up incoming and stick it.

cheers

[Surferdude]

They do it because it's a basic teqhnique.
You need to learn your basics first to do advanced techniques.
:eek:

[SevenStar]

nah, that's not what he's saying. he said he's seeing advanced ranks do it also.

[Kinjit]

I have had advanced black belts tell me "no, you don't need to train against anything else - if you can defend this you can defend any punch" :rolleyes:

[Cyborg]

I guess I should type more to be understood better. (I'm laconic, what can I say?) Sevenstar was right, I've seen black belts train on that and only that. It's not wrong for beginners but you'd think people who'd been training for several years would train other things as well... went to one dojo and they asked me to throw a right handed punch so they could demonstrate. I threw a slow (right) jkd lead and they said, no no no! nobody punches like that! What can I say, now I'm nobody! :rolleyes:

[LEGEND]

"They do it because it's a basic teqhnique.
You need to learn your basics first to do advanced techniques."

No this is not TRUE. I've seen training against a TACKLE and the students presume the same defense would work against a DOUBLE LEG WRESTLING TAKEDOWN. It's not the same. Even advance self defense practioner crosstrain but don't really have basic understanding of the other style unless he actually trains in it for awhile.

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by Kinjit
Alot of traditional arts seem to train against this almost exlusively. Why?

they just being silly, thats why

[David Jamieson]

legend- I agree.

Inasmuch as the old addage goes "know your enemy".

It is dangerous to presume you can defend against another style outside of your own without actually training to defend specifically against those attacks inherent to that style.

There are also quite a few markedly different defenses against a lunge straighty punch. IE: you can trap it, grab it, deflect any number of directions, and so on.

On the street, the two big strikes you will find yourself in need of defense techniques for are the haymaker and the jab. The jab being representative of the lunge punch but with more body weight behind it.

Most guys will attack you with a flailing haymaker though, so step inside, grab the arm and toss that guy over you hip! (that move is in practically all styles :) )

cheers