Xing Yi and Wing Chun

[foolinthedeck]

i was wondering about the similarities between wing chun and xing yi (Hsing I). i do wing chun and would like to learn an internal art, but i find tai chi is a bit too different as i am already too stuck into my centreline, triangulation, etc...

i know alot of people will say there are no similarities, but:

from emptyflower.com/xingyiquan


Xingyi smashes right through the opponent in a linear fashion with an unrelenting attack.


Xingyiquan is a no-nonsense fighting system.


Xingyi boxers move linearally, stepping forward or angling in and out on straight lines.


The linear stepping techniques naturally reveals Xingyi's strategy - offense

etc etc.
some thoughts please?

[count]

Well, I don't have the same "linear" idea of hsing-I as those quotes imply. Even if I thought linear meant to take a straight line, hsing-I has triangular and curved/circular stepping too. Pao chuan takes a triangular direction and heng chuan takes a circular one. Go for it if you have the opportunity! I think it's a great style that will improve your "kung fu".:cool:

[miniteman]

I like hsingi as a martial art..

As an introduction to the internal styles it is a good start.. it is an effective style for self defense..

Hsingi is based on simple principles which work.. it uses basic techniques in an unfamiliar way..

Hsingi has few forms so u get lots of practice with what u will actually use ..

I have yet to meet a bogus hsingi instructor due to the fact that hsingi does'nt look pretty ..

Hsingi is an aggressive style which seeks to end a conflict as quickly as possible.. this does'nt mean charging an opponent wildly swinging your arms and legs in all directions..

I think the quotes give a good idea of what hsingi is although I think hsingi is not linear in the typical meaning of the word.. more a small angular movement around an attack followed by linear movement into the centerline..

www.emptyflower.com is a cool place to find out about hsingi as is www.plumflower.com try shenwu and tim cartmell as well ..

All the best hope u like it..

[fragbot]

etc etc.
some thoughts please?

First off, I don't practice wing chun but I've trained with people who do/did.

Xingyi's power generation is noticeably different from wing chun's. In xingyi, you have a concept of whole-body connection used to power techniques. Thus, instead of the power focused primarily and immediately at impact, it is delivered across the range of the entire technique. Having worked out with WC guys, it is my impression its power generation is digital--it's either on or off.

A WC guy once remarked that he thought Xingyi's power was alot like a jet during takeoff. I'd never thought about it that way before but it is an appropriate analogy.

Furthermore, while WC and xingyi both have a focus on sticking, they train it differently. Likewise, they're both close range arts with relatively small core curriculums.

Like WC, there are several variations of Xingyi. It's usually broken down by region--Shanxi, Hebei, and Honan.

Shanxi and Hebei xingyi train the wu xing (5 fists) and santi as their primary fundamentals while Honan (very rare AFAICT) doesn't have the 5 fists. Furthermore, they often have numerous two man sets as well as single person sets as well. However, in my experience, xingyi's fundamental work is emphasized much more than the supplementary material.

While the 5 fists do train specific techniques, they're more important for their jing training. My interpretations of what each trains follow:

1) pi quan -- splitting fist -- metal. My primary focus when I train, it builds down power. In application, I've used it to take my back reaping sweep to just plain vicious. It is much smoother and I have the body mechanics to *drive* someone into the ground. Similarly, it has improved any technique requiring an armwrap unbalance.

2) beng quan -- crushing fist -- wood. It's a straight punch and often compared to an arrow being shot from a bow.

3) zuan quan -- drilling fist -- water. It looks like an uppercut but I find its storage side much more interesting. Overall, it circular energy has improved my hooking sweeps dramatically. Furthermore, it has improved my initial unbalancing.

4) pao quan -- pounding/cannon fist -- fire. While it's a powerful strike, it's not compelling to me and I focus on it the least in my training.

5) heng quan -- crossing fist -- earth. As a punch, it's pretty strange. However, as a strike with a forearm or shoulder, it's useful. Mostly, it is a great "oh s***, I'm screwed" technique since it allows you to recover the centerline and/or rescue a limb that's about to be locked.

Xingyi practice can be excruciatingly boring. Between standing and wuxing practice, it requires sustained daily practice. Practice that's generally not very much fun.

[[Censored]]

Wing Chun
- 1 part Sensitivity
- 1 part Precision
+ 1 part Power
+ 1 part Aggression
--------------------
= Xing Yi

[Felipe Bido]

Originally posted by [Censored]

Wing Chun
- 1 part Sensitivity
- 1 part Precision
+ 1 part Power
+ 1 part Aggression
--------------------
= Xing Yi



Good post :)

[foolinthedeck]

thanks for your input.
could i also ask those who have responded:
if a wing chun person wanted to learn an 'internal' art, would i be right in thinking that xing yi would be more appropriate than bagua zhang or taiqiquan?

or should we just stick to our wing chun and improve the 'gong lik' aspect?

- i suppose the thing is that i want more internal without having to completey rewrite my body movements - anything too circular would be too much i think though not impossible..

fragbot said
Mostly, it is a great "oh s***, I'm screwed" technique since it allows you to recover the centerline

this emphasis on centreline is shared with wing chun but (correct me if i'm wrong) not taiqi/bagua..

[Leimeng]

~ Hsing-I has a tremendous amount of precision and sensitivity. Push hand like exercises are practised all the time. The two man drills and exercise have a lot of very subtle shifts that rely on sensititivity and precision to get right. However, Hsing_I also has enough power in it that it is pretty easy to blast right through a person where they are at.
~ If you are studying WC/VT/WT ect at the moment, I have no doubt that Hsing-I or PaKua would exponentially develop your martial abilities not to mention your over all health.
~ My own bias based on my own personal experiance is that a person who trains hard in Hsing-I for a few years will easily defeat someone who trained equally hard in WC/VT/WT for the same amount of time.
~ Hsing-I would be a better art to start of learning of the internal arts because it is the most direct path for study. (Bewarned, it can also be VERY boring, you will have basically five fists that you will practice in the thousands of repetitions for a long while.)
~ PaKua would be a good art to study as well, but the only advantage you would notice right off is a tremendous increase in mobility, and improved health.
~ I hope that helps.

Peace

Sin Loi

Yi Beng, Kan Xue

[miniteman]

If you want to learn one of the styles tai chi .. ba gua .. or hsingi.. and have already learnt some wing chun I would recomend hsingi for a start..

There are reasons for this ..

Hsingi has the easiest theory and principles.. you can understand them fairly quickly without having to take a philosophy major at uni..

The 5 elements are the basis for the entire art.. master them and the rest is a derivation of principle..

Traditionally hsingi has been the quickest of the three to give reults.. it has a reputation as a soliders art.. so it is geared towards practicability..

I think that hsingi would better suit a larger group of martial artists than tai chi or bagua ..

Tai chi because although the saying "relax" sounds easy its not easy to do when under stress.. there is a lot more form work and lots of chi kung qigong..

Bagua because of the way they approach fighting.. it can be confusing for the practitioner let alone an opponent..

Tai chi and bagua have a lot more techniques than hsingi which tends to be a stricking art whereas tai chi and bagua can encompass striking and a lot more grappling depending on particular style..

Hsingi has circular movement but still is the most linear of the three..

Bear in mind that hsingi develops an aggresive mindset.. if you r a pitbull then this style will suit you.. lock on and chomp away.. if you are a more genteel sort then it is a good idea to look at tai chi or bagua .. and not becasue they are not respectable styles .. but rather the mindset that comes with studing those styles..

And last but not least hsingi would be the closest to wing chun.. in application maybe not in training..

Hope that helps..

[foolinthedeck]

thanks for those responses.

i'm not sure whats best for me... i'm no pitbull, but i prefer the directness, sensitivity, simplicity etc of Wing Chun. I can cope with boredom... - siu lim tao can be fairly boring, as can pole training.

i've also done a fair bit of qi gong before so i'm used to that to a certain extent.

i'll see.. hmm..
thanks again!:p

[Kristoffer]

Atleast in Hsing-I you drill strikes! Who want's to go around in a circle for 10 years? :D (Pakua)

[David Jamieson]

besides the fact both styles are chinese, they are otherwise unrelated in both form and function.

My personal opinion is that Hsing I is much more direct, probably the most direct method of boxing avaiable from the chinese martial arts.

Wing Chun is also fairly direct in it's approach to attacking, but IMO, not as quick, vicious and to the point as Hsing I.

Just a personal observation having had a taste of both.

cheers

[[Censored]]

could i also ask those who have responded:
if a wing chun person wanted to learn an 'internal' art, would i be right in thinking that xing yi would be more appropriate than bagua zhang or taiqiquan?

Let's consider cooking instead of fighting. If you told me it was "inappropriate" to learn to cook French cuisine after having learned Mexican cuisine, I'd think you a fool. As long as I keep the beans out of the croissants, there won't be a problem.

- i suppose the thing is that i want more internal without having to completey rewrite my body movements - anything too circular would be too much i think though not impossible..

See above.

this emphasis on centreline is shared with wing chun but (correct me if i'm wrong) not taiqi/bagua..

Every body has a centerline; some people just don't realize it.

[StickyHands]

So if you want more health benefits, which art should be precise to take? And if you want more MA practicality with quicker training to it, I suppose Xingyi? In Bagau Zhang, does everything they do has to be executed in walking the circles? How does that exactly improve evasion and mobility? When you're about to get hit, it's ahhh autonomous instinctual reflex anyway, any MA would help you improve on it.

[omarthefish]

Ach! There all about the same. The top guys in all three tend to refuse to give them any hierarchy, you should follow their example. I like Baguazhang best but I don't decieve myself into thinking it's any better than the other two. The points about martial xing-yi teachers being more common may be true but that's got nothing to do with the art. If you already study Wing Chun, then you should already have a set of guidelines about what's good gong-fu and what's not. The core principles of even Wing Chun and Bagua are about the same. Don't oppose force dirrectly. Get of his line of attack. Even centerline theory is vital to Baguazhang.

When I have cross-trained with Wing Chun guys they often stare quizically at my Bagua influenced stance but can't tell me exactly what's "wrong" with it. I don't tell them what I trained in and many of them don't even know much of anything about Bagua. (not everyone reads the BBS systems you know.) They just know that it looks like I'm in a side neutral stance from a Wing Chun perspective but something about the shape if weird.

I'm inclined to reccomend Taijiquan just because it may help with your chi sau and general sensitivity. Alsoi because it may help with what I feel is Wing Chun's biggest deficit.... rooting. .... or maybe footwork, which would suggest Bagua. Mainly, I just think the upright Wing Chun stance is a little vulnerable to takedowns and if you manage to just puch in past their range into grappling range, they don't have good solutions. Not that Xing-yi doesn't, I just think that if you are not interested in changing styles so much as just cross-training to fill in some gaps, Wing Chuns weak points seems to be it's mobility and stand-up grappling. Hitting, they do better than most.

Don't be decieved into thinking Wing Chun has a monopoly on cenerline theory. It's just more explicitly discussed than some.

[foolinthedeck]

thanks omar!
great reply, put things in perspective.

[StickyHands]

However, on street reality fighting/or self defense against one or multiple opponets, which would you recommend? Xingyi or Tai Chi?

[Muppet]

Unless you're fighting scrubs, sprinting :)

Basic tai chi training doesn't seem to have much in the way of footwork.

Hsing I's jockeying teaches you to be more mobile from the get go, so if you have enough maneuvering room, it may be a little better.

But of all the internal arts, bagua (e.g., nine palace) is probably the closest to letting you fight multiple opponents since evasive footwork is so heavily emphasized.

[StickyHands]

Gotcha. Thanks. But concering Xingyi, and how everyone else who practice overemphasizing, I thought it's a military art, and the only internal art to be battle tested. So wouldn't that mean they too are exposed to fighting multiple opponents at once?

[Muppet]

Well, what I'm telling you is a big fat guess.

For all I know, taiji may be perfectly fine for multiple opponents but based on what I've seen of its footwork, I can't imagine how it could possibly be suited for that situation.

As far as Hsing I's "battle tested" reputation goes, who knows?
Reliable info on Hsing I only seems to go back to the 1600s and so the only more or less concrete proof is effectiveness in a non-military context: Escort, body-guard, and bounty-hunting work.

But even if we take the stories at face value, it still doesn't prove it was reliable for a one-to-many scenario. When you're in battle, you're (hopefully) not trying to fight off an entire group alone.

Also, the person probably had the luxury of fighting armed, so that a one-hit-one kill was more likely.

Really hard to know what's possible, though. From what I hear, even today, there are Hsing I lineages where you're contractually obliged not to reveal anything outside of the basic exercises.

But these are the family lineages that continue to provide reliable bodyguards to top Communist party leaders, etc.

I'm sure some Bagua and Taiji lineages have something similar.

[HuangKaiVun]

Oh yeah, Hsing I is battle tested.

Actually, it's moves are pretty simple. Regardless of the lineage, the 5 elements basically amount to:

guard position
punch
uppercuts (block)
parry, then strike
push-pull.

These features work in real combat because of their simplicity.

Also, the Hsing I fighter can rotate to face multiple opponents if need be. The same can be true of any true kung fu stylist.


Taijiquan also fights well when applied properly, especially when one doesn't try to overcomplicate the combat applications.

[flaco]

xing i is a good start for you, although most good xing i practicioners also learn bagua, because one is no better than the other. my shifu is li tailiang, and he is very adept at all three internal arts. he will use his xing yi fist or power, combined with the superior bagua footwork, so all in all, if your chun is good, you might want something different like bagua, it will teach more circles, which are lacking from most wc, and it will help you beat a wc guy of your same skill level.
bagua circle walking is a superior form of footwork, so again, its up to you.you cant go wrong either way. i think what will really answer your question, is--- which art has a good master teaching it in your area.