paradigm shift? what is it?

[yylee]

Hi

Recently I saw the term "paradigm shift" in this forum pops up in various places. I start to wonder what a paradigm shift really is in Wing Chun, here are a few candidates I can think of:

1) a shift from big wide horse to a narrow Wing Chun like stance.

2) a shift from big movements to small movements.

3) a shift from alpha to beta to theta (I think "zeta" jones is more attractive) brain wave. In fact I know BaGua people have talked about brain wave pattern changes for many years.

4) a shift from a "strong" stance where one feels like melting into the ground, feet burning like two balls of fire; to a piece of silk hanging in mid air kind of graceful posture?

5) or, from a hard-soft pulsing kind of Fa-Jing into an all soft flowing energy (no tension)?

I personally like this article on paradigm shift:
http://www.hchwingchun.com.au/article07.htm

care to comment?

[Phenix]

Paradigm shift?
shift to what? In the begining, there is NOT a thing. So what needs to Shift?

Trying to shift "logically' will end up not shifting what need to be shift.:D

[Savi]

A paradigm shift, to my understanding, is much like something that changes your whole perception; a realization.

For example, one experience I'd like to share involves the saying "Be empty of yourself." I've heard this phrase my whole life, and to me it meant something like 'to be completely void of thought and time.' Kind of like having no opinions about anything; a void. For years it was only words to me; no message. I didn't understand it.

A few months ago I came across that phrase again reading "The Seventh World of Chan Buddhism." For some reason at that moment, the phrase "Be empty of yourself" bled through my whole system. It became "Kill the ego", and I realized what I've been holding on to. Certain things I had been learning were being put into place, and that 'shift of thought/understanding' connected everything I had understood to everything else that was involved. My understanding of what I had before had evolved to another level of awareness.

This is a personal experience I went through. My ENTIRE way of thought was affected by my new understanding. Later on in the book I was reading, my understanding was confirmed. It was later discussed that (in general) "martial arts was designed to kill the ego, but today it seems to promote the ego..." So to me, that was my paradigm shift. It is something that brings your entire awareness to a whole new level.

[planetwc]

It's when you decide that Wing Chun really DOES come from Shaolin even though the movements, structure, naming systems, postures are completely different.

You kind of do a hokey pokey movement when doing this.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Savi
It was later discussed that (in general) "martial arts was designed to kill the ego, but today it seems to promote the ego..." So to me, that was my paradigm shift. It is something that brings your entire awareness to a whole new level.




So, Does it shift?
Or

A new version of self "killing" the old ego generate by the old self.
Going no where even one think one is progressing.

[kungfu cowboy]

A-yuck-yuck-yuck!!:D

[t_niehoff]

planetwc wrote:

It's when you decide that Wing Chun really DOES come from Shaolin even though the movements, structure, naming systems, postures are completely different.

LOL! Very perceptive. TN

Terence

[Grendel]

Originally posted by planetwc
It's when you decide that Wing Chun really DOES come from Shaolin even though the movements, structure, naming systems, postures are completely different.

You kind of do a hokey pokey movement when doing this.
The hokey pokey undergirds most TCMA, IMO. It's historical impetus is very clear in the fourth empty hands set.

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix
Paradigm shift?
shift to what? In the begining, there is NOT a thing. So what needs to Shift?

true, but it seems we shift from NOT a thing to MANY things since childhood.




Trying to shift "logically' will end up not shifting what need to be shift.:D

The logically mind still needs to be convinced in order to give way for the better things to happen.

Let's just say, to shift from hard-soft art into a "no tense" internal path; much conscious effort is needed.

[Savi]

Originally posted by Phenix
A new version of self "killing" the old ego generate by the old self. Going no where even one think one is progressing.
Hendrik, you do not know me. My recent posts do not attack you, yet you now follow me like white on rice. You display no Buddha-nature. Insulting other people and destroying harmony where there was no need is not Buddhist, and this you are doing.

"Going nowhere even one think one is progressing."-HS

This is what we call Fau Kiu. Fau Kiu is the state of wandering (floating bridge), Hendrik. No shape, no idea of Time and Space, no identity. You speak so much of Fau Kiu, and your need to tell others what you think they really are and where they are is quite obvious with the quote above. Patience oh disciple of Shaolin, your virtue is dissolving.

I know, it is quite clear you do not think HFYWCK has any value to the Gung Wu. You do not think it is the way. Therefore, I will not bother talking to you about it. You care nothing for this branch of kung fu, so I care not to share with you.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Savi

Hendrik, you do not know me. My recent posts do not attack you, yet you now follow me like white on rice. You display no Buddha-nature. Insulting other people and destroying harmony where there was no need is not Buddhist, and this you are doing.


Savi,

I Comment on what I know. Should that be taken as attacking you? Where is the paradigm shift of "killing ego"?

Great idea but Does it works?


And you attack me by saying
"
You display no Buddha-nature. Insulting other people and destroying harmony where there was no need is not Buddhist, and this you are doing. "


No Buddha-nature?
Can any living being display no Buddha-nature?



May be you have to thank me to point at the real moon instead of illusion? No?

Am I shatter you dream of harmony according to you?
I guess that is what a Chan master suppose to do right? To shift the paradigm to keep other awake. NO?






"Going nowhere even one think one is progressing."-HS

This is what we call Fau Kiu. Fau Kiu is the state of wandering (floating bridge), Hendrik. No shape, no idea of Time and Space, no identity. You speak so much of Fau Kiu, and your need to tell others what you think they really are and where they are is quite obvious with the quote above. Patience oh disciple of Shaolin, your virtue is dissolving.

I know, it is quite clear you do not think HFYWCK has any value to the Gung Wu. You do not think it is the way. Therefore, I will not bother talking to you about it. You care nothing for this branch of kung fu, so I care not to share with you.





What is the discussion of Paradigm shift of the mind state got to do with HFYWCK? IMHO, if you don't respect your lineage, don't presume others don't respect your lineage. Again, why be so defensive?


On the other hand, you can qoute your Term of your lineage as much as possible.

I choose to following Surangama sutra instead of what is not teached By the Buddha.


See, in the Surrangama Sutra's teaching it says :

--------------------------------------------------------

One grasp one's thought with one's mind
what is not illusive become illusive
If one not grasps, then there is no illusive
if there is no illusive,
All the Terms of illusive need not to be define.


-----------------------------------------------------------

beware of one grasp one's idea without aware of it.
and then, thinking it is a paradigm shift.
and then trying to froce others to take one's illusive as the Truth.
and when others have different ideas then one get mad and start attacking, and threatenig.....

That is the sign of heavy ego and attachement.


I sincerely recomend you to study the Surangama Sutra and have a real paradigm shift. The type Damo did.

[Savi]

Originally posted by planetwc
It's when you decide that Wing Chun really DOES come from Shaolin even though the movements, structure, naming systems, postures are completely different.

You kind of do a hokey pokey movement when doing this.
Hey David W.
As most people here already know, I do believe in Wing Chun's Shaolin origins. As you stated above, 'the movements, structure, naming systems, postures are completely different. I'm not sure I entirely agree with, and I do not understand what you mean by the 'hokey pokey' part.

I have not seen the entire system of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. However, what I have seen of its operational characteristics are definitely 'shared' (I guess one could say) in the animal styles I have trained. Snake, Crane, and Tiger styles whom I have a passing familiarity with [from my old Shaolin Sifu] parallel my Wing Chun family's combative guidelines. Structure is obviously different, yet similar. To make a generalization, they are nearly the same motions in tighter circles. How this came about? Only one possible reason has come into my circle which holds merit (based on my experience and understanding of the animal styles and WC styles) follows below... My Sifu has discussed this many times at the kwoon, but I will use a quote from one of his articles to convey the message:

Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun was developed along a true paradigm shift in hand-to-hand combat thinking. Prior to this point in time, styles of combat were based on art and self-expression. Hung Fa Yi was created in an environment based strictly on human physiology and the physics of time and space. Personal artistic expression became irrelevant. Absolute control of time and space, with predictable and repeatable results in combat, represented the center of all focus.

Of course I give no proof to back this up as only technical information can be given here. To understand the above quote, requires the physical experience to cross that bridge.

Thanks for your input David.

[Savi]

Originally posted by Phenix
beware of one grasp one's idea without aware of it.
and then, thinking it is a paradigm shift.
and then trying to froce others to take one's illusive as the Truth.
and when others have different ideas then one get mad and start attacking, and threatenig.....

That is the sign of heavy ego and attachement.


I sincerely recomend you to study the Surangama Sutra and have a real paradigm shift. The type Damo did.
Hendrik, honestly man, you really have no idea to what I understand - just as I don't understand what it is you may know. What you say above is certainly true, but I FORCE NO ONE to believe anything I write. I don't get upset when other people have differing ideas from mine. But when someone has different ideas and talks from ill nature/intent like TN, people have a right to get upset.

Or perhaps you feel threatened by what I say to make such a comment (above) then? If not, why say it? Can you tell me?

I speak of the paradigm shift in my posts to Jim Roselando, David Williams, and Desertwingchun2. I speak of personal realizations to Yylee. However, sharing my views does not constitute an act of force against others' beliefs. Sharing is not the same as forcing.

I spoke of "Killing the ego" as a means to master yourself. This I understand, is one reason for the development of martial arts. You ask me, where is the paradigm? The paradigm for *me* was understanding its meaning, when I didn't before. It has nothing to do with anyone else, just my experience.


Originally posted by Phenix
I sincerely recomend you to study the Surangama Sutra and have a real paradigm shift. The type Damo did.

Appreciated, but realize there is no 'real' or 'fake' paradigm shift Hendrik. A paradigm shift brings you closer to reality. That requires a shift in thinking. That is also, only a moment in time. The proof of its occurance is in the resulting product. The (HFY formula) is proof of the new way of thinking. The (HFYWCF + Saam Mo Kiu Philosophy) is proof, and (HFYWCF + SMK + phases of combat = HFYWCK) is proof. There are many proofs out there of the paradigm shifts. Other examples: Realizing the world is not flat. Realizing earth is not the center of the universe. Realizing the earth rotates around the sun. All these things changes everyone's way of thinking. What sparked the Shaolin paradigm? Today's VTM research leads us to the invasion against the Han people in the 17th century. Read the excerpt in my last post to David W. about paradigm shifts.

Hendrik, I'm not attacking you. Based on our history of conversation here on this forum, nearly everything I have to share is always questioned with apparent ill-intention, and you tend give lude analogies in an attempt to discredit others' opinions (which aren't Truth, that's why they're opinions), thereby leaving the impression of insult to some readers.

From my perspective, perhaps it's your choice of words. Perhaps it's your way of communicating. I don't know, but the fact is your 'humor' on this forum tends to give rise, support, and opportunity to those who take Pride in attacking my Wing Chun family.

In any case Hendrik, I would like to know what you feel regarding my Wing Chun family. I grow quite tired of everyone bashing us despite any of the reasons. I wish to share my experience and understanding of HFY with everyone here who are interested. If you are not interested, why ask?

Continue your search for the mother and father of your Wing Chun in the 12 Zhuang and Emei, Hendrik. Good luck to you. My information does not seem to help you.

[Phenix]

Savi,

"In any case Hendrik, I would like to know what you feel regarding my Wing Chun family. I grow quite tired of everyone bashing us despite any of the reasons. I wish to share my experience and understanding of HFY with everyone here who are interested. If you are not interested, why ask?" -Savi



Show evidents and all shall be clear.
Experience and understanding cannot replace factual reality.
Show off of Ten million followers cannot change a second of past history.

Samadhi is about facing reality
Why argue or caring what other feel?
If it is real it need not to be defend.
if it is not real it need not to be defend.





"Continue your search for the mother and father of your Wing Chun in the 12 Zhuang and Emei, Hendrik. Good luck to you. My information does not seem to help you." ---Savi

Thank you for your informational and claims.
You infomation indeed is not applicable.


cooking rice will become rice, cooking sand will not become rice. ---surangama sutra.

May the Amitaba Buddha bless you, best wishes for your belive.


Amitaba

[foolinthedeck]

yylee
nice article in the first post.
did anyone else read it?

[anerlich]

Royce Gracie winning UFC1.

Kazushi Sakuraba defeating Royce.

[kj]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
yylee
nice article in the first post.
did anyone else read it?

Yes, it's a nice article; there are many thoughtful essays on that site (http://www.hchwingchun.com.au/) .

As referenced in the article, research has shown that imagery can effectively supplement (not replace) training to enhance physical performance. A a mixed bag of related links:

Sports Psychology (http://www.mindtools.com/page11.html)
Mental Imagery (http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/mental.htm)
Imagery in Sports (research and article abstracts) (http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/csa/vol26/table.htm)
The Use of Psychological Skills by Female Collegiate Swimmers (with comparative results) (http://www.trancenet.org/research/1999thiese.shtml)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[hunt1]

Anerlich, How about Maurice Smith vs Conan and his follow up vs the Japanese Judoka ( forgot his name ). At a minimum proved stand up fighters primary are at least equal to grapplers primary and you will see clear WC principles being used to win. If UFC1 was a shift in one direction these fights shifted things back to the center.

[Rolling_Hand]

Savi wrote:

This is a personal experience I went through. My ENTIRE way of thought was affected by my new understanding. Later on in the book I was reading, my understanding was confirmed. It was later discussed that (in general) "martial arts was designed to kill the ego, but today it seems to promote the ego..." So to me, that was my paradigm shift. It is something that brings your entire awareness to a whole new level.

---------------------------------------------------

Savi,

Thumbs up!

In every trail

Let understanding fight for you

To defend what you have won.

Humm....

Roger

[planetwc]

I wasn't even thinking of Hung Fa Yi. It is from all appearances and commentaries, a completely different martial art, unrelated other than name to mainstream Wing Chun Kuen.

I think a lot of the confusion and acrimony would end if it were simply referred to as Shaolin Hung Fa Yi Kuen. Or perhaps Shaolin Hung Fa Yi Weng Chun Kuen.

My comments were about Wing Chun Kuen as practiced by students from the lineages of Leung Jan and the red boats such as Yip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, Koo Lo, Yik Kam.

[anerlich]

Fair Comment.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
<<Hendrik, honestly man, you really have no idea to what I understand - just as I don't understand what it is you may know.>>Savi

**How can Shaolin WCK be what Hendrik want it to be? Sounds like a self professed mediocre talented white crane man want to pass himself as a shaolin expert. But Hendrik has yet to demonstrate any ability to put forth about his claim. We need to see more about Hendrik's White crane kung fu+12 Zheung.


Rolling Hand

It is your time to show the Shao LIn translation and your dna stufss to back your claim. we have been waiting for days and weeks.


Without your Translation and DNA.....
That is a sign that yoiu can't comprehend and don't know you own subject, but a person trying to be expert in what one has no idea about.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand


>>My comments were about Wing Chun Kuen as practiced by students from the lineages of Leung Jan and the red boats such as Yip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, Koo Lo, Yik Kam.>>PW

**My comments were about Wing Chun Kuen, not White Crane Kung Fu!


Rolling_Hand

IMHO, I have a Theory about what might happen, so prof me wrong if I am wrong ok? Thanks.

So, Rolling Hand, since you are from Fatsan, Knowing the first hand about everything of Shao lin and everything.... and the mighty master of WCK.

May be, just may be, i might be wrong,
it is because the so called ancetors from Shao LIn,
lost to the Qing with his art.
So,
Hiding in the Red Boat, Learning the WCK of Red Boats from the Opera Ancestors which using the center line theory .... from White Crane.

However, since He is either shy to tell others the real stories or due to his ego,
since he has not even learning Surangama Sutra and have never has a formal training in Buddhism, (by buddhist standard he is not a real buddhist monk and not a follower of Buddha)
He creates his story. That is the reason why no one can supply a factual evidents and trynig to deny White Crane from Fujian.

as the Buddha said, "you evil demon, eating the food supply by our Buddhist monk but trying to damaging Buddhism"




I suspect and very certain I might be wrong big time, and I am appology here to be wrong. but still without your expert factual evidents.
Supply us with Factual evidents or else,
agree with me and are prolonging to justifiy that I am right on what I am wrong.



This is just another Hypothesis. I admit I can be wrong. But still without Rolloring_Hand's factual evidents.....
Now, PLease Help me to prove me Wrong.



Disclaim, This is a discusssion with Rolling Hand's expertised subject, not about any lineage or style.

[Rolling_Hand]

Hendrik wrote:

Rolling Hand

It is your time to show the Shao LIn translation and your dna stufss to back your claim. we have been waiting for days and weeks.


Without your Translation and DNA.....
That is a sign that yoiu can't comprehend and don't know you own subject, but a person trying to be expert in what one has no idea about

----------------------------------------------------------

Hi Hendrik,

Understanding the subtle distinction gives one the advantages to appreciate the art of WCK. No one has come to the end of the way over the river of DNA of Shaolin. So, I don't have any fortune to buy you a gift, but I can show you what's not the DNA of Shaolin WCK...

Please judge for yourself if this is Shaolin WCK DNA or White Crane DNA.

http://www.dragonslist.com/kwoon/index.php?id=63

Most likely you can find some of the Shaolin WCK DNA on these websits.

http://www.wingchun.hk.com/

http://www.templewingchun.com/

[Phenix]

Hi Rolling Hand,


"Please judge for yourself if this is Shaolin WCK DNA or White Crane DNA.

http://www.dragonslist.com/kwoon/index.php?id=63 " ---Rolling Hand,




Please judge for yourself what is the Ancestors of Cho family teaches.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=21215


Please judge for yourself what the White Crane kuen kuit shown.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=21400&pagenumber=4


I will be Appreciated for you to Match the Kuen Kuit and platfrom of both emei and White Crane which i have post with your factual evidents of the past. Not modern day web cut.




Again, I am waiting for your translation on the below website about shao Lin and Hung Mun. since you have better english then me. See what the historian says.

http://www.geocities.com/quan_fa/shaolin.html

[Rolling_Hand]

Hi Hendrik,

Rolling_Hand

<<IMHO, I have a Theory about what might happen, so prof me wrong if I am wrong ok? Thanks.>>HS

**So, you have a theory, and Madonna also has a song-"Like a virgin".

<<So, Rolling Hand, since you are from Fatsan, Knowing the first hand about everything of Shao lin and everything.... and the mighty master of WCK.>>HS

**The mighty master of WCK. Are you talking about your friend, Robert Chu?

<<May be, just may be, i might be wrong,
it is because the so called ancetors from Shao LIn,
lost to the Qing with his art.
So,
Hiding in the Red Boat, Learning the WCK of Red Boats from the Opera Ancestors which using the center line theory .... from White Crane.

However, since He is either shy to tell others the real stories or due to his ego,
since he has not even learning Surangama Sutra and have never has a formal training in Buddhism, (by buddhist standard he is not a real buddhist monk and not a follower of Buddha)
He creates his story. That is the reason why no one can supply a factual evidents and trynig to deny White Crane from Fujian.>>HS

**Keep on talking....I'm listening!

<<as the Buddha said, "you evil demon, eating the food supply by our Buddhist monk but trying to damaging Buddhism">>HS

**You worst enemy can't harm you as much as your own thoughts, wake up...Hendrik, it's time to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

<<I suspect and very certain I might be wrong big time, and I am appology here to be wrong. but still without your expert factual evidents.
Supply us with Factual evidents or else,
You agree are prolonging to justifiy that I am right on what I am wrong.>>HS

**Hendrik, Are you a student of Stephen King?

<<This is just another Hypothesis. I admit I can be wrong. But still without Rolloring_Hand's factual evidents.....
Now, PLease Help me to prove me Wrong.>>

**I had met Jackie Chan once in Hollywood, CA. but I don't know Charlie Chan.

<<Disclaim, This is a discusssion with Rolling Hand's expertised subject, not about any lineage or style.>>HS

**Sounds like a man is disturbed....

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand

<<So, Rolling Hand, since you are from Fatsan, Knowing the first hand about everything of Shao lin and everything.... and the mighty master of WCK.>>HS

**The mighty master of WCK. Are you talking about your friend, Robert Chu?





So, The Rolling Hand, Mighty master of WCK,

So how much do you know about Cho family art, Yik Kam's SLT, and family tree positioning to post something like the following which I attached?

As for my friend Sifu Robert Chu, Why drag him in? He didn't post anything here at all.



Back to the paradigm shift subject.

So, as my post above directed towards you.

I am waiting for your lineage, kuenkuit, Kuen poh...... history factual evidents to prove me wrong.

I love to be wrong. But, one second delay of getting your factual evidents will indicate by default you agree on my hypothesis one more second.

Clock is ticking. I love to be proven wrong as soon as possible.

If you cannot prove me wrong then you admit by default you agree with my hypothesis.

Clock continous to tick.....




--------------------------------------------------------

((([QUOTE]Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
[B]Hendrik wrote: Since you and me are both one of many succesors of different system, we have the responsibility to clarify things for the Martial art public and future generation of Wing Chun Kuen and Weng Chun Kuen. This is Purely technical nothing personal.

------------------------------------------------------

Hm....

GM Hoffmann is the gate keeper of Chi Sim WCK.

But Hendrik is just a student (Successor) of Cho's Emie SLT.
_____________________________________
Rolling Hand,

Astute observation..... Andreas Hoffman is a true Grand Master of a system.... he is the only member of the Chi Sim Family to study and master the material and teachings of all five Chi Sim Lineages... he has thousands of students and grand students spread throughout the world... it is simply unforgivable that these internet punks with limited experience and no training in Kung Fu manners (i.e. Hendrik and Terrence) should speak to him as equals in the field of Kung Fu.... THIS IS THE SINGLE BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH INTERNET FORUMS.... there appears to be no respect whatsoever for the professional qualifications and accomplishments of true masters attempting to answer questions from self-appointed 'Experts'....

In the case of Hendrik and Terrence, there is most definitely a hidden agenda.... there is another force at play behind their continual attempts to embarrass Wing Chun masters who acknowledge their Shaolin roots... they have no desire to unite the Wing Chun world on a common journey for truth.... their goal is 'division'... without possessing any real credentials and certifications themselves, they have a need to pooh pooh other's legitimacy in order to make themselves feel more complete.

Your continual challenges of their self-inflated posturings and tomes are most sincerely appreciated by literally hundreds of Wing Chun players here in Arizona.)))


-----------------

[Rolling_Hand]

<<So, The Rolling Hand, Mighty master of WCK,>>HS

**Huh....what are you saying?

<<So how much do you know about Cho family art, Yik Kam's SLT, and family tree positioning to post something like this?>>HS

**How much....? This much(http://www.dragonslist.com/kwoon/index.php?id=63)+Hendrik's posts.

<<As for my friend Sifu Robert Chu, Why drag him in? He didn't post anything here at all.>>HS

**So, only Hendrik is allowed to say anything about anybody!

<<Back to the paradigm shift subject.
So, as my post above directing towards you.>>HS

**hahaha....you are the source of all purity and all impurity.

<<I am waiting for your lineage, kuenkuit, Kuen poh...... history factual evidents to prove me wrong.>>HS

**My WCK lineages are Yiu Kay, WSL and William Cheung. If you want to know more about my lineages. Here they are...

http://www.wingchun.hk.com/

http://www.templewingchun.com/

<<I love to be wrong. But, one second delay of getting your factual evidents will indicate by default you agree on my hypothesis one more second.
Clock is ticking. I love to be proven wrong as soon as possible.>>HS

**Your work is to discover your work. Never neglect your work for someone else's....Mischief is yours, sorrow is yours. Ask yourself this question - How hard it is to serve yourself without attacking and insulting our Shaolin ancestors?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand


How hard it is to serve yourself without attacking and insulting our Shaolin ancestors?


Rollling Hand,


I told you I am wrong.
But need your factual evidents to prove I am wrong. How is that attacking and insulting Shao Lin Ancestors?

By the way, which ancestors? What is his dharma name, Where he ordain to be a Bihku? When He recieved his precepts ..... Who is the Witness elderly? To be called Shao Lin ancestors one need to present these data.

In ancient time, one has to present these data above to lodge in a temple. Without the above data, one couldn't even lodge in a temple. ID Check is a must in temple. So where the insulting comes?

This is a Shao Lin ancestor of mine and he shows his ID
http://members.lycos.nl/saolim/lifestory_gaocan.html
so, I expect you to show me the ancestors ID. Otherwise, David Caradine can also be Shao Lin Ancestors, but in Movie.


Clock is ticking. Comeon, prove me wrong.
Or you agree with me on my hypothesis.



PS

"<<As for my friend Sifu Robert Chu, Why drag him in? He didn't post anything here at all.>>HS

**So, only Hendrik is allowed to say anything about anybody!"


I don't say anything about anybody. I share what I learn.

In this case, sifu Robert Chu has nothing at all to do with this subject.

Rolling HAnd is the one knows it all with Website information.

[anerlich]

but a person trying to be expert in what one has no idea about

Now THJERE's an insult with multiple potential targets, quite possibly including the instigator!

[reneritchie]

Wow, another thread completely fubar'd by people both preaching and stomping HFY. What a waste.

Andrew, I think Royce winning UFC1, combined with the very intelligent follow up from the Gracies (especially the Gracies in Action videos) could really be called a paradigm shift.

Hunter, I don't consider Mo's knock out a shift back or even equalizer since it could statistically be considered a fluke (a la Hendo knocking out Renzo, or Nino knocking out Sak). I think the repeatability of Royce's wins were what consituted a real shift in thinking. If he'd just won one fight, people would have dismissed it to protect their ego investments.

Sakuraba is interesting in that he did repeat his results over jiu-jitsu man after jiu-jitsu man, and I think, along with others, heralded in the more well rounded MMA fighter who could wrestle, submit, and strike. His uniqueness, however, and the fact that the rest of Takada dojo failed so completely to reproduce his results (unlike the Gracies who could show many incredible examples of different people (even an army like family) reproducing their results).

To get back to WCK, I think the only real one we can lay claim to is Bruce Lee making the art so popular and touching off the Kung Fu fetish of the 70s.

Even our approach to martial arts (though I don't doubt we all like to feel very special) is a logical path along the developmental line once we understand what the culture and context were. Certain arts began having less and less footwork in their primary set(s), and some none/almost none at all. Certain arts began to align in a certain way. Certain arts began to develop contact reflex training. If we look at the other styles that evolved around WCK, we can similar paths that were taken, some that didn't get refined as much, some that went in different directions, etc. but we can clearly see where WCK fits.

That's not a paradigm shift. That's evolution.

Savi, when you mention Five Animals, are you referring to something like Wuxing Bafa, or like the Ng Ying of Hung Ga or Choy Lay Fut, or something else?

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Ok, this has become extremely silly. Please take your personal bickering offline.

[yylee]

Originally posted by wujidude


"Fubar'd" . . . that is a verb, or perhaps a secret WC technique, with which I am unfamiliar. Is that something that French-Canadian martial artists specialize in? Or just Montreal slang?



I think it means "f-up beyond all repair" or something like that, at least this is how we use it in the office.

[reneritchie]

Yup, "fugged" up beyond all recognition. One of those wonderful acronyms, like snafu (situation normal, all "fugged" up) we've inherited from skirmishes past.

[t_niehoff]

Rene Ritchie wrote:

That's not a paradigm shift. That's evolution. RR

Martial arts aren't manufactured "complete" (and never really become "complete" as there is always room for growth) -- regardless of how often that buzzword is used -- but grow and evolve **as any system of knowledge does.** Judo, for example, was IMO a "paradigm shift" by Kano which took from many different sources but involved a radically different way of training (randori) and had a different purpose (physical education, moral instruction). Nevertheless, it continued to evolve and grow at the Kodokan. And look what the Gracies have done with it. Would someone today want "original Judo"? Or think "original Judo" was more perfect or more effective than today's Judo? The Judo of today contains the essence of what Kano developed and has continued to grow in line with that essence. I think the same is true of WCK -- it contains the essence of its founders but has continued to grow. TN

Terence

[reneritchie]

Hey Terence,

Yes, you still have people talking about Kosen Judo, or pre-WW2 Jujitsu, or long-lost Chinese versions of BJJ, or catch (sorry Victor, couldn't resist!). Haven't really seen them do as well as Kodokan Judo or Gracie Jiu-Jiutsu in actual application. But that may be the point. It's easier to claim secret super special roots than work for modern results.

(Wrestling is nice like that as well. You can claim super secret lost lineages of Greco-Roman, but in the end, its only you in the ring with Karelin).

[yuanfen]

Rene sez-
(Wrestling is nice like that as well. You can claim super secret lost lineages of Greco-Roman, but in the end, its only you in the ring with Karelin).
--------------------------------------------------------------
Karelin is immensely strong and impeccable in his bridging work.
But there is an apple- orange possible problem in comparing people in different generations. There are problems in asserting that the contempoaries are better than the old timers and vice versa.

Even though Tyson comes later... Ali's trainer correctly IMO pointed out that given Ali's footwork and his reach adavantage- that Ali in his time would have handled Tyson easily. Styles make fights as well and Tyson was ready made for Ali. Intangibles also- Ali was creative when pressed- Tyson has some flaws on that score- as was evident in the Douglas fight.

I once asked Chen Xiaowang about his grandfather Chen Fake-
who he knew... CXW said that Chen Fake was better than anyone around these days. I believe that Chen Fake's student- the great Feng has said the same thing.

In sports witha common measure for their key feature- dashing speed, putting the shot- there is no question that contemporaries are better than old timers.
But outside of sporting events in something like fighting with more complex variables involved- specially across generations
comparisons are more difficult and we are stuck with opinions.

So evolution yes--- but the progression is not always linear.
Regression is also possible and I think exists in parts of wing chun.

[hunt1]

Rene, I was just joking around with Anerlich however a paradigm shift is in the eye of the beholder. For instance I had seen Gracie style JJ long before UFC from some Cubans so UFC1 wasnt a surprise or a big shift for me. Then and now I would take a skilled wrestler and I think from Dan Severn on to Mark Coleman and all the others it is clear if you mix quality wrestling with boxing and add a couple of submits you have a hell of a fighter.

What is important about Maurice Smith is that in his first fight he wasnt given a chance in hell of beating Conan. I still remember the announcers holding back their chuckles when asked about his chances. Second what he did wasnt a fluke he defeated several other grapplers. Third he one using basic WC principles. If you ever get a chance to watch his first 2 UFC fights they are easy to see. He escaped from the bottom vs. Conan using center line punching for instance. I am not saying he was a WC fighter but that he used concepts found in WC and used them the way they should be used.

[yuanfen]

I vey much could be wrong... but I had heard that Smith did some wc as a teenager. But his punches and his choke defenses certainly have some wc principles in them. I remeber his fight with Coleman(?). Anyways the big grappler had some messed up knees afterhe was softened up.
Severn in his first match just picked up Roce and took him down... but then didnt know what to do with him. His sporting background showed.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Yup, "fugged" up beyond all recognition. One of those wonderful acronyms, like snafu (situation normal, all "fugged" up) we've inherited from skirmishes past.
Rene,

You are quite correct. Both FUBAR and SNAFU are old American military slang terms.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Rene Ritchie wrote:

That's not a paradigm shift. That's evolution. RR

RR, well noted.


Martial arts aren't manufactured "complete" (and never really become "complete" as there is always room for growth) -- regardless of how often that buzzword is used -- but grow and evolve **as any system of knowledge does.**
(deleted text)
The Judo of today contains the essence of what Kano developed and has continued to grow in line with that essence. I think the same is true of WCK -- it contains the essence of its founders but has continued to grow. TN

Terence,

How would you say Wing Chun Kuen has grown since Yip Man?

By my observation, Wing Chun teaching has devolved into the lowest common denominator of both teaching and student expectation. Yip Man was 50 years old with years of experience in Wing Chun before he began teaching in Hong Kong. Leung Sheung had had 16 years experience in other Kung Fu styles before he dropped them and studied Wing Chun exclusively for several years before he began to teach, and LS continued in close association with YM for the rest of his life despite a brief falling out between them.

Where are the teachers today who can claim such credentials?

Where are the students who would put in the time to learn the system complete?

As a result in the faster pace of modern life, it is unlikely that the changes in Wing Chun Kuen are for the better IMO.

[t_niehoff]

Grendel wrote:

Terence,

How would you say Wing Chun Kuen has grown since Yip Man?

Not all WCK comes from Yip Man. But that which does has taken all kinds routes -- some good, some not so good. There has been recently a great exchange of information that is unprecedented. It is a great time for a discerning mind. TN

By my observation, Wing Chun teaching has devolved into the lowest common denominator of both teaching and student expectation. Yip Man was 50 years old with years of experience in Wing Chun before he began teaching in Hong Kong.

Sure there is a lot of that -- and I think that's always been the case. Skill, discipline, experience, and the like have always been rare commodities. It wasn't ever the case of 100 Leung Jan's running around. ;) TN

Leung Sheung had had 16 years experience in other Kung Fu styles before he dropped them and studied Wing Chun exclusively for several years before he began to teach, and LS continued in close association with YM for the rest of his life despite a brief falling out between them.

Numbers and association doesn't mean a thing IMO. If someone has skill they can demonstrate it. Then we can look back and see how they got it. If they can't demonstrate it, then all these things don't matter. TN

Where are the teachers today who can claim such credentials?

Do folks need to live with Yip Man to be good? Credentials MO are for folks that can't do it -- so they have something to point at when asked about skill. In my view, performance is our measure. TN

Where are the students who would put in the time to learn the system complete?

As a result in the faster pace of modern life, it is unlikely that the changes in Wing Chun Kuen are for the better IMO.

I've heard this before, and while I do think we have more opportunities to fill our leisure time, we also have lots more leisure time than folks did in times past (in agricultural communities where folks work sun-up to sun-down). IMO I think we have all the advantages to be better than our ancestors. And I've met a few that were really, really good. TN

Terence

[hunt1]

yuanfen I dint want to say it but yes you are right. WC has proven itself in MMA events but since the gentleman that used it never has publicly said he used WC I would never be comforatable saying so.

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

If you have any questions/comments about moderatorial decisions, please direct them to me via PM or email.

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

I have emailed you.

[Geezer]

Where.......PM or Email???????
There's nothing there??????

Sheldon

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

It was sent to the dayco.com address that you had contacted me on.

[Geezer]

That's my old address, I've sent you the new one!!!!!

[Ultimatewingchun]

I haven't read all the posts on this thread yet, but of several of those I have read refer to Hung Fa Yi as a paradigm shift for wing chun...THIS IS NOT TRUE!

Having done TWC for almost 20 years now - I saw immediately the similarities between TWC and HFY...

A friend if mine who is still an instructor within the Moy Yat clan...after attending a Garrett Gee seminar came back and told me that HFY looks almost exactly like the TWC that I have been occasionally showing him over the course of at least 7 years now - even including things like the Entry technique that GM William Cheung introduced
(re-introduced) to the wing chun world over 20 years ago.

Since that conversation with my friend have seen several magazine articles with a number of photos of Garrett Gee demonstrating HFY...and once again saw the similarites.

This particular paradigm shift actually started with GM William Cheung back around 1982.



I also

[yuanfen]

Ultimatewingchun sez:

A friend if mine who is still an instructor within the Moy Yat clan...after attending a Garrett Gee seminar came back and told me that HFY looks almost exactly like the TWC that I have been occasionally showing him over the course of at least 7 years now - even including things like the Entry technique that GM William Cheung introduced
(re-introduced) to the wing chun world over 20 years ago.

-------------------------------------------------------
Interesting observation and post!

[CHS]

Having done TWC for almost 20 years now - I saw immediately the similarities between TWC and HFY...

UltimateWingChun,
What are the similarities?? Can you give specific examples?

[canglong]

"Simililarities" does not equate to exactly nor should it in my opinion. Because WCK will always look like WCK no matter the distinct subtlties that distinguish between the different forms.

[reneritchie]

Tony,

Good point. However, were we to employ set theory, the union between sets HFY and TWC would be larger than either of their unions with sets YKS, YM, KL, or YK, while sets YKS, YM, KL, and YK would have larger unions with each other than any of them would with sets HFY or TWC.

In other words, HFY and TWC are *more* similar to each other than to any of the other mentioned branches, and the other mentioned branches are more similar to each other than to HFY or TWC.

So, we could reasonably sort 2 groups, (TWC/HFY), and (YKS/YM/KL/YK). We know why the 2nd group have the similarities they do - shared ancestery going back to the Red Junk members Wong Wah-Bo and Yik Kam. We do not, as yet, know why the 1st group have such similarities, or what point of connection they share and when.

[Rolling_Hand]

Tony,

So, we could reasonably sort 2 groups, (TWC/HFY), and (YKS/YM/KL/YK). We know why the 2nd group have the similarities they do - shared ancestery going back to the Red Junk members Wong Wah-Bo and Yik Kam. We do not, as yet, know why the 1st group have such similarities, or what point of connection they share and when.>>RR

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Should it be these two groups?

Red Boat WCK: TWC, Chi Sim, HFY, YM, YKS

Red Boat White Crane: YK (White Crane+12 Zheung)

[canglong]

Yes, at the same time there also exist reasonable evidence to sort TWC, Chi Sim, HFY, YM and YKS togerther because of like principles, theories, strategies, tactics, terminology, application and more. It would appear the seperation exist awaiting answers to the unknown instead of focusing on the known commonalities of all things WC.

[Phenix]

Great grouping,

certainly, I am glad YK's WCK has nothing to do with HFY and Chisim.

:D

[reneritchie]

C'mon Hendrik, that type of comment is just as bad as Rolling Hand. Chi Sim WCK represents, perhaps, the Fujian side of our ancestry, evolved along its own generations to be sure, but very much a part of what we were, and what most of our ancestors on the Red Junk were familiar with.

Don't get drawn into all the hate. Do your things. Talk about Yik Kam's art and leave the BS to the BSers.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by reneritchie
C'mon Hendrik, that type of comment is just as bad as Rolling Hand.

That's not a constructive comparison either. :rolleyes: Hendrik is a decent sort.


Chi Sim WCK represents, perhaps, the Fujian side of our ancestry, evolved along its own generations to be sure, but very much a part of what we were, and what most of our ancestors on the Red Junk were familiar with.

Don't get drawn into all the hate. Do your things. Talk about Yik Kam's art and leave the BS to the BSers.

Rene,
Don't be hating. (http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&cf=info&id=1808420114)

I haven't seen your movie yet. :p

[reneritchie]

That's not a constructive comparison either. Hendrik is a decent sort.

Granted, probably skewed by my expecting more from Hendrik.


I haven't seen your movie yet.

D@mn commission won't rate the sucka, and I sent it back 3 times already!

[Rolling_Hand]

Rene Ritchie wrote:

C'mon Hendrik, that type of comment is just as bad as Rolling Hand. Chi Sim WCK represents, perhaps, the Fujian side of our ancestry, evolved along its own generations to be sure, but very much a part of what we were, and what most of our ancestors on the Red Junk were familiar with.

Don't get drawn into all the hate. Do your things. Talk about Yik Kam's art and leave the BS to the BSers.

----------------------------------------------------------

Rene Ritchie, Stop trolling...

You could say anything about RH, that wouldn't hurt me a bit, it's because I'm a bigger man than you, and also I'm a Ch'an man....I'm pure and free.

About your silly comment...
Is this one of your cheap shots to attack the HFYWCK?

A quote from Jeremy:"When someone in the martial arts community goes around insulting people while trying to be friendly, they call that "Ai Gwan Ji." Often you're posts manage to share infromation while also insulting the person to which you post. A kung fu guy can read your character in your actions. This is not about discussing history or even different points of view - you're trying to be a nice guy while stabbing HFY in the back"


-----------------------------------------------------------

Canlong wrote:

fau kiu Yes, at the same time there also exist reasonable evidence to sort TWC, Chi Sim, HFY, YM and YKS togerther because of like principles, theories, strategies, tactics, terminology, application and more. It would appear the seperation exist awaiting answers to the unknown instead of focusing on the known commonalities of all things WC.


Hendrik wrote:

Great grouping,

certainly, I am glad YK's WCK has nothing to do with HFY and Chisim.

----------------------------------------------------

Hi Canlong & Hendrik,

Let's take a close look at this Yik Kam school.

Do you see any WCK principles there?

What do you both think?

http://www.dragonslist.com/kwoon/index.php?id=63

[reneritchie]

Hi Tony,


Yes, at the same time there also exist reasonable evidence to sort TWC, Chi Sim, HFY, YM and YKS togerther because of like principles, theories, strategies, tactics, terminology, application and more. It would appear the seperation exist awaiting answers to the unknown instead of focusing on the known commonalities of all things WC.

If you followed the set theory analogy I was making, of course there is an intersection of most entities calling themselves WCK (and also intersections with other arts with other names). The largest, most obvious intersection, however, would be the ones I mentioned.

I'll whip up a diagram if I'm not managing to communicate it well enough through text.

[reneritchie]

Here ya go!

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Here ya go!
Hi Rene,

Nice try on the diagram. Does it show all cases from the discussions or just those subsets. In other words, what does "other arts" entail?

Regards,

[reneritchie]

Hi John,

It's just meant to clarify, as repeatedly stated by many and varied people from different places, with different backgrounds, who've seen both, that HFY and TWC are closer to each other than either is to Foshan WCK such as Leung Jan (Yip, Gulao), Yuen Kay-San, Yik Kam, etc. The "other arts" was a nod to the fact that we're all human, and its all intended for fighting, so there is bound to be some overlap with other TCMA, and other national arts as well.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Hi John,

It's just meant to clarify, as repeatedly stated by many and varied people from different places, with different backgrounds, who've seen both, that HFY and TWC are closer to each other than either is to Foshan WCK such as Leung Jan (Yip, Gulao), Yuen Kay-San, Yik Kam, etc. The "other arts" was a nod to the fact that we're all human, and its all intended for fighting, so there is bound to be some overlap with other TCMA, and other national arts as well.
Hi Rene,

Thanks. I'm having a time following the ins and outs of the discussion, popping in from time-to-time as I do.

Thanks again for explaining. So, TWC, as you picture it, is with HFY due to their similarities, but TWC does not overlap Yip Man closely, but that grouping overlaps the three including Leung (YM)? I can understand why HFY doesn't.

As you were. I'm just thinking about it. I'm back to lurking on the sidelines. :D

Regards,

[Chango]

Rene,
Could you please give me a basic over view of what you know on HFY. I think the HFY group can help you understand more about the system. Maybe this could help clear up the obvious confusion. This will help us better determine your qualifications on HFY.


Saat geng sau

[Phenix]

Rene,

You are right.

But there is no hating and not putting down others.
Just too tired to reason, so if someone say this is not that group.... sure sure. I just accept it. No other implication.
Just tired. not productive.

see, i have place some evidents on the table.. i hope others also place some of thier. see, it is great to have a good discussion. not to say who is right....

today, i got another book about the research of southern shao lin.

Guess what, there is a story or account that the root of southern shao lin is TaiZhu. then the head monk got trap and killed when the temple got burn..... then the student starting teaching this art and become five ancestors... and southern shao lin is refer to TaiZhu .... a good size book. Some comparison of basic art or basic DNA also...

So there are lots of theory out there.


Hendrik

[reneritchie]

John, Hendrik, no worries.

Chango, you have to learn to accept that other people may have different opinions than you, or different perspectives. If someone disagrees, it doesn't automatically mean they misunderstand (perhaps they have a different insight than you, and perhaps you're missing that as much as you think they're missing yours).

As much as you repeatedly tell people they need "face to face" interaction, it seems a little distance and the perspective that allows at this point would be even more beneficial to some.

Now, many people from different places, backgrounds, and points of reference have been kind enough to share that in their opinions there are choreographical and body-mechanical similarities (no one said identical) between TWC and HFY, and that if a casual observer saw their sets side by side, they would easily note both those similarities, and the differences both have to Foshan WCK.

If you disagree with that, rather than telling people repeatedly they don't understand (that would just mean from their perspective, you don't understand), how about following Jeremy's lead and providing *SPECIFIC* differences in the general choreography and body mechanics between the two? If you can make a compelling case, perhaps others will come to understand.

[Rolling_Hand]

are you qualified?
Rene,
Could you please give me a basic over view of what you know on HFY. I think the HFY group can help you understand more about the system. Maybe this could help clear up the obvious confusion. This will help us better determine your qualifications on HFY.

Saat geng sau

----------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Chango,

Don't feed the trolls. You're correct about this Rene Ritchie. Is he qualified to speak for the HFY and TWC families?

Roger

[William E]

I would have to agree with Rolling Hand on this one.


Rene Wrote>>

Many people from different places, backgrounds, and points of reference have been kind enough to share that in their opinions there are choreographical and body-mechanical similarities (no one said identical) between TWC and HFY, and that if a casual observer saw their sets side by side, they would easily note both those similarities, and the differences both have to Foshan WCK.

Do any of these people you speak of have any training in HFY?

IMO it seems Rene always wants to be the definitive WCK expert including HFY even though he hasn't a real clue...

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by William E
Rene Wrote>>

Many people from different places, backgrounds, and points of reference have been kind enough to share that in their opinions there are choreographical and body-mechanical similarities (no one said identical) between TWC and HFY, and that if a casual observer saw their sets side by side, they would easily note both those similarities, and the differences both have to Foshan WCK.

Do any of these people you speak of have any training in HFY?

IMO it seems Rene always wants to be the definitive WCK expert including HFY even though he hasn't a real clue...
Hi William,

Any chance you or your HFY school mates could attend the April 27 Wing Chun get-together in San Jose (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=312624#post312624)? Several forum members will be there. It will provide an opportunity for you to cut through all the forum awkwardness and show what HFY is about to an eager audience. No pressure. Hope you can make it though.

Regards,

[Chango]

Rene,
I just want you to qualify yourself. I did not say that you do not understand. I'm just asking you directly what exactly do you know about HFY? or TWC for that matter! You seem to feel that you are qualified to make up your chart. I'm just asking you exactly how much of the HFY system have you seen to put it in your little catagory? I mean nothing by this question. I'm just asking how important is your opinion on this subject. or better said how much do you know to draw such conclusions? I'm just asking who are you when it comes to HFY? a guy that has some idea? or some chap that seems to think he knows? so with out any side track Rene please offer a simple outline of your thoughts on the lay out of the HFY information! What concepts does it offer? how are they expressed? How do they tie together? here I will start for you. How is center line expressed in HFY? I think the rest of the forum members would be interested in how much information you have. I think this will help us wieght what you have to say on HFY. Once again I'm not telling you that you do not understand. I'm simply asking you point blank how much do you understand? As a matter of fact I'm not the only HFY member on forum. I'm sure the other members would have no problem in helping you if there is a mistake. This will just help us know that you do know what you are talking about and that you did not just assume that you know. This will help us all know what you know and are capable of discussing from a view of understanding and not speculation!


Chango (saat geng sau)

[reneritchie]

Chango,

I don't drive a Pontiac Vibe. I don't drive a Toyota Matrix. I don't know either of their mechanics, I couldn't talk you through either of their production processes. I'm sure they're fine cars, built on the same foundation, and I'm sure they have many differences, but I'm not that interested in either at this point in my life. Doesn't mean I can't tell them apart from a Honda Accord, though.

As always, it might be a smart, if disengenuous tactic to shift the discussion off focus rather than maturely discussing the issues at hand, but it's not one that interests me. If you change your mind about what type of discussion you'd like, as always, I'll be more than happy to participate.

[t_niehoff]

Rene,

As I see it, if we are all doing WCK, then what we do must share the same core or essence (the things that make it WCK) -- otherwise we're deaing with different animals altogether, so we have no common ground or method, and we should probably just stick to our little group. If, however, we share that same core (which IMO is the case and supports the view that WCK is WCK), then we have a common ground from which to discuss how my emphasis on certain aspects or way of teaching that core, i.e., lineage, may differ from yours. Unfortunately, when folks don't really see we all share these same core aspects of WCK (it helps if you get out and see top-notch practitioners of other lineages), they end up believing that they are the property of the narrow confines of their particular method and that no one outside their lineage could possibly understand these things. It is hard to get the broad picture with narrow vision. TN

Terence

[tparkerkfo]

HI all,

It seems we can never get away from the lineage battles. Some feel attacked or threatened and feel they must due the same. People seem to think Rene is trying to position himself a certain way, which I think is rediculous. Rene is not qualified to talk about HFY indepth any more than any one else is able to talk about ANY lineage of wing chun they have not personally studied. That means that HFY people can not talk about Gee Shim wing chun any more than I can or Terence can talk about HFY since we all have only had limited exposure.

But as Rene pointed out, we can make certain comments. I see Rene as being very metodical about the facts that are presented. He does not make rash judgements based on loyalty and feelings. I myself don't beleive everything he says, but I can listen to it as it is usually well thought out. His comments on HFY are based on what has been discussed.

I think if we started down this path of authorized and qualified, then we have no use for a forum and should close this down. I may have to challenge others qualifications on HFY. What qualifications do any of the HFY people have to discuss it. We could start a huge discussion on that topic as well. LOL.

Lot of heat, but no light
Tom
________
Buy Silver Surfer (http://vaporizers.net)

[Rolling_Hand]

Rene Ritchie wrote:

<<TWC seems, to me, to be a very good system for taller people, since it gives them the bigger circles their longer limbs would require, and gives them the ability to maintain space which their longer limbs could exploit. If Chan Wah Shun really was much bigger than most of his peers, perhaps he valued that aspect of WCK as well?>>

Sifu Victor Parlati (A certified TWC Sifu) wrote:

<<TOTALLY DISAGREE I totally disagree with the idea that TWC is better for bigger people and modified better for smaller people...

IT'S COMPLETELY THE OTHER WAY AROUND...

which is why the outflanking maneuvers, footwork, and strategy of TWC is especically needed by the smaller person when confronted by the bigger, charging straight forward...bull...>>

-----------------------------------------------

Who is the real TWC expert?

Rene Ritchie or Sifu Victor Parlati?

If you dertermine your course with some sponge assumptions,

You miss the way of the law.

[planetwc]

Roger,

Any chance you'll lay out your details on background in Wing Chun in general, instructors, length of time etc. etc. as you request of Rene?

What is your background with Hung Fa Yi? How long have you been a student? Which teacher did you study with?

Turn about is fair play? Hmmmmmmmmm?

Or will any of that blow your cover in the troll protection program?

Care to come down from your tree and give your own specifics or will you continue to ask of others what you fail to do yourself?

[planetwc]

Hey William,

Great to see another post from a real Hung Fa Yi student rather than posers like Rolling Hand. Perhaps you can explain the differences as you see them between HFY and Yip Man style Wing Chun. These questions have been asked before from Meng Sifu's students here, who have a grounding in both the Moy Yat system as taught by Meng, Lowenhagen and Schultz as well as their current training in Hung Fa Yi.

Yet none seem to be able to offer a comparision between the 2 systems when they have trained in both.

As far as Hung Fa Yi goes I have a copy of the Friendship seminar tape and others which I purchased from the VTM, which show Benny Meng demonstrating the SLT form, along with Marty Goldberg demonstrating the TWC first SLT form. The similarities in gross motor movements around the two sets were striking from my perspective and seemed more related to each other than either Yip Man or Yuen Kay Shan style forms.

I've also had the pleasure of rolling with a Hung Fa Yi student from the main HQ school several years ago. His poon sao and chi sao seemed quite in line with Yip Man style Wing Chun, I did not see him do any of the sets, so I base my commentary on the similarities of the material I have in my possession from the VTM.

Can you perhaps offer more light on the subject of Hung Fa Yi as it compares and contrasts to say William Cheung's TWC, the mainstream Yip Man forms and lineages?

As Rene has met the current Sijo of the Hung Fa Yi system and seen the sets performed firsthand, can you comment on which particular aspects of the system he "has no clue about"?

Several people here on this forum have met and seen GM Gee in person, so I'm wondering where the disconnect may lie from your perspective.

Thanks in advance!


Originally posted by William E
I would have to agree with Rolling Hand on this one.


Rene Wrote>>

Many people from different places, backgrounds, and points of reference have been kind enough to share that in their opinions there are choreographical and body-mechanical similarities (no one said identical) between TWC and HFY, and that if a casual observer saw their sets side by side, they would easily note both those similarities, and the differences both have to Foshan WCK.

Do any of these people you speak of have any training in HFY?

IMO it seems Rene always wants to be the definitive WCK expert including HFY even though he hasn't a real clue...

[planetwc]

Terrence,

I see you share your sifu's optimism regarding everyone doing WCK--perhaps even when they are not. At least it seems that way from the flamefests here on this forum.

What has been said here on the forum in many respects is that the core in one system is quite different from all the others, yet is the root of all the others.

If the DNA doesn't match then how can it be the "parent" so to speak, and isn't it instead something completely different, unique and special in it's own regard?

So perhaps they have the same last name, but bear no relation to each other as their core essence is different and somehow unexplainable?

But then that would lead me next to the Shaolin paradox (where are the Shaolin DNA markers in WCK?) and that is confusing enough as it is.

Maybe in the end, we aren't all doing WCK, some are some aren't.
Perhaps in seeking uniformity and commonality we find instead divergance and disharmony all stemming from a name.

Sigh.


Originally posted by t_niehoff
Rene,

As I see it, if we are all doing WCK, then what we do must share the same core or essence (the things that make it WCK) -- otherwise we're deaing with different animals altogether, so we have no common ground or method, and we should probably just stick to our little group. If, however, we share that same core (which IMO is the case and supports the view that WCK is WCK), then we have a common ground from which to discuss how my emphasis on certain aspects or way of teaching that core, i.e., lineage, may differ from yours. Unfortunately, when folks don't really see we all share these same core aspects of WCK (it helps if you get out and see top-notch practitioners of other lineages), they end up believing that they are the property of the narrow confines of their particular method and that no one outside their lineage could possibly understand these things. It is hard to get the broad picture with narrow vision. TN

Terence

[canglong]

"Great grouping, certainly, I am glad YK's WCK has nothing to do with HFY and Chisim." Hendrik

Why? What do you have against SNT, Chum Kiu and Biu Jee?

RR, When looking at your chart I think that TWC, Chi Sim and HFY should be in the 3 natural colors because they are older and all other colors would have to derive from them, so why did you use natural colors for the younger arts? Secondly, the chart does not define those things that govern the colors so it's ambiguous in that respect.

Rolling_Hand

http://www.dragonslist.com/kwoon/index.php?id=63

"Wing Choon Kungfu is well known for its economy of movements and straight attacks. This sometimes misleads some people to think that there are no circular movements in Wing Choon Kungfu. This is not true. In fact "Kam Sau" (Cover Hand) and "Hueen Sau" (Circular Hand) are very important Wing Choon techniques, and both make use of circular movements."

Yes, this sounds and looks like wing chun to me yet I am no one as I am sure others would point out...


"What qualifications do any of the HFY people have to discuss it." Tom

There is a distinct difference between discussion and diatribe.

[Phenix]

" it is not about anger but peace.
It is not about power but grace......
Air is like rock.. one can step on it... " --- in "bullet proof monk" there are conversation like this.


Now how can one float in air? Silk and belive.
Watch the bullet proof monk to learn what is the paradigm shift.

[William E]

planetwc wrote> Great to see another post from a real Hung Fa Yi student rather than posers like Rolling Hand. Perhaps you can explain the differences as you see them between HFY and Yip Man style Wing Chun. These questions have been asked before from Meng Sifu's students here, who have a grounding in both the Moy Yat system as taught by Meng, Lowenhagen and Schultz as well as their current training in Hung Fa Yi.

planetwc,

Unfortunately I have not had the opportunity to study the Ip Man style and can not answer your question. sorry...

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by William E
planetwc wrote> Great to see another post from a real Hung Fa Yi student rather than posers like Rolling Hand. Perhaps you can explain the differences as you see them between HFY and Yip Man style Wing Chun. These questions have been asked before from Meng Sifu's students here, who have a grounding in both the Moy Yat system as taught by Meng, Lowenhagen and Schultz as well as their current training in Hung Fa Yi.

planetwc,

Unfortunately I have not had the opportunity to study the Ip Man style and can not answer your question. sorry...
Hi William,

PlanetWC and I will be at the April 27 Friendly Bay Area Wing Chun Get-Together (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=19602&perpage=15&pagenumber=4).

Let me again extend a personal invitation to you and your HFY friends and any other Bay Area folks. Several forum members will be there and it will be a chance for you to show us in person what we all have such a difficult time explaining in text.

I'm sure everyone will have a good time. Hope you show. It could be the start of many friendships and we should see that we all have some common ground. Several Bay Area schools have been getting together over the past year, and we are all learning something from each other.

Roger Rollinghand, you are welcome too.

This event is purely for fun and friendly sharing. No level of expertise or experience is required. Folks should feel free to share at any level they can or wish. I find that the differences melt away when we can talk and do Wing Chun in a nonthreatening situation, unlike the Internet where hyperbole and competitiveness reigns.

Regards,

[reneritchie]

RR, When looking at your chart I think that TWC, Chi Sim and HFY should be in the 3 natural colors because they are older and all other colors would have to derive from them, so why did you use natural colors for the younger arts? Secondly, the chart does not define those things that govern the colors so it's ambiguous in that respect.

Tony, please provide me with any independantly verifiable facts which conclusively show HFY or TWC are any older than the Foshan lineages of Wing Chun. If anything, the assumption should probably go in the other direction until *proven* otherwise.

Secondly, the colors don't mean anything, other than differentiating the arts in question.

[yuanfen]

Rene sez:

Tony, please provide me with any independantly verifiable facts which conclusively show HFY or TWC are any older than the Foshan lineages of Wing Chun.


(Rene- you have along wait))

If anything, the assumption should probably go in the other direction until *proven* otherwise.

(( Most likely. But more problematic is the jabberwocky catlogue of jargon and pseudo philosophy. They belong properly in internal ineage catechisms))

[Chango]

What was the name of the last standing building on the Southern Shaolin site?

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Chango
What was the name of the last standing building on the Southern Shaolin site?
The X-Mansion?

Located at 1407 Graymalkin Lane, just outside of Salem Center, Westchester County, New York, the ancestral Xavier estate was built in the late 1700's. Currently owned by Charles Francis Xavier, this sprawling mansion was erected near Breakstone lake and serves as a school, as well as the secret headquarters of the group of heroes known as the X-Men. The estate was originally named The Xavier School For Gifted Youngsters, but changed it's name to The Xavier Institue for Higher Learning with the opening of a new school in Snow Valley, Massachusetts. Since the recent closing of the Massachusetts Academy, the original name was restored.

What does the winning guesser get as a prize? :rolleyes: That deserves its own thread. :rolleyes:

[CHS]

Chango said:

What was the name of the last standing building on the Southern Shaolin site?

Some news said Hung Fa Ting? If so, what does it have to do with HFYWCK? HFY is just a name and may not have anything to do with that buidling.

Heck, I could even say my WCK is Hung Fa Ting Wing Chun Kuen, how's that?

[yylee]

here is a picture of what's left of Southern (Nam) Shaolin before it was rebuilt.

[Grendel]

Hi Yylee,

I enjoy your posts, but I have a few questions about this one.

Originally posted by yylee
here is a picture of what's left of Southern (Nam) Shaolin before it was rebuilt.
Just for fun, what's your picture's source? Can it be verified? What is the significance of the ruins vis-a-vis this thread? Are we talking about an architectural paradigm shift?

Regards,

[yylee]

since the thread has gone through several paradigm shifts and ends up being a Chinese historical archeological (sp?) studies, so here you go :)

http://members.lycos.nl/saolim/zuid_shaolin.html

[William E]

planetwc wrote > Great to see another post from a real Hung Fa Yi student rather than posers like Rolling Hand.

Since when has Roger Rolling Hand ever claimed he was a Hung Fa Yi student? I believe Rolling Hand has stated his lineage and it was not HFY. Do not twist the facts that have already been presented.

planetwc wrote> I've also had the pleasure of rolling with a Hung Fa Yi student from the main HQ school several years ago. His poon sao and chi sao seemed quite in line with Yip Man style Wing Chun, I did not see him do any of the sets, so I base my commentary on the similarities of the material I have in my possession from the VTM.

I want to clarify some misleading information that you have presented in more than one thread on this forum. The person that you "had the pleasure of rolling" with was actually a student of Eddie Chung for four years and then Kenneth Cheung for another six months before joining HFY. His total HFY experience was three months before you touched hands. It is no wonder there were similarities since he was likely doing Yip Man WC as it is very unlikey for him to have learned any HFY chi sau in those three months.

Do I smell a hidden agenda against HFY planetwc? Tell us how you really feel....

:cool:

[Train]

Hi William,

I thought I told PlanetWC that a while ago in a different post but I guess he still wants to bring it up for some reason. I actually know that person who touched hands with PlanetWC. He said that is the reason why he liked HFYWC, becuase HFY was different from YMWC. He thought it was better that most of the WC that's out there. That's why I keep an open mind and I enjoy reading about HFY on the forum. But there are people in the forum that can be very hmmmmm... Shady! Yup, and they can give you a hard time :) so watch out William......

CHS wrote:
(Some news said Hung Fa Ting? If so, what does it have to do with HFYWCK? HFY is just a name and may not have anything to do with that buidling.

Heck, I could even say my WCK is Hung Fa Ting Wing Chun Kuen, how's that?)

If you don't know anything about the Hung Fa Ting and HFYWC, I would watch what you say becuase it can come back and Bite you in da @ss one day. Please have some "mo duk"

[canglong]

"It's just meant to clarify, as repeatedly stated by many and varied people from different places, with different backgrounds, who've seen both, that HFY and TWC are closer to each other than either is to Foshan WCK....." Rene

Isn't the true question whether or not you can seperate TWC and HFY from Foshan WCK not whether they may look a little different but despite the fact they may even look different?

If anything, the assumption should probably go in the other direction until *proven* otherwise. Rene

Without fact I find no need to make assumptions. You are better off trying to refute any application of HFYWCK than trying to refute its history. Once you either succeed or fail in that endeavor you might realize whether any further study is necessary into the subject at all.

(( "....But more problematic is the jabberwocky catlogue of jargon and pseudo philosophy." yuanfen

Agreed, now any GM of the keyboard with internet access can freely and quickly opine their trifle and feckless conjecture on the unwilling like never before.

"Heck, I could even say my WCK is Hung Fa Ting Wing Chun Kuen, how's that?" CHS

I am wondering if you share these kinds of thoughts with your sifu?


"If you don't know anything about the Hung Fa Ting and HFYWC, I would watch what you say becuase it can come back and Bite you in da @ss one day. Please have some "mo duk"" Train

I couldn't agree more.

[reneritchie]

David,

Thanks. I've seen a lot of mixed reviews about "Nam Siu Lam", with some experts really believing they've found the lost temple from the stories, and others believing they've found *a* lost temple that the PRC wants to slap the name on and make a tourist attraction out of (A Shaolin World for Shaolin Land). For me, it will be a 3 stage process:

1. Verify the temple actually is Nam Shaolin and not just another of many Fujian temples. To do this, they will have to show a conclusive link to Songshan Shaolin (if not carbon date a sign reading Nam Siu Lam).

2. Verify that halls such as Hung Fa Ting are actually being called that because of archiological evidence, and not just circular logic (the building must be Nam Siu Lam, hence the hall inside must be Hung Fa Ting or Weng Chun Tong, etc.)

3. Once it is conclusively shown the temple is Nam Shaolin, those who ascribe to the Shaolin theory will have to show reasonable evidence that there is a connection between what they practice and that legacy (you could say Abraham Licoln is your ancestor, but showing historical proof that Licoln existed doesn't prove your connection, you have to show all the birh, marriage, etc. certificates between the two).

Tony,

May I ask why you, in your cut and paste, you excluded my request that you show me anything at all supporting your assumption that HFY and TWC were "older" than the Foshan lineages? Do you have any independantly verifiable, multi-sourced, factual evidence at all?


Without fact I find no need to make assumptions.

Then you take back what you said about HFY and TWC being older than the verifiable Foshan lineages?


You are better off trying to refute any application of HFYWCK than trying to refute its history.

With respect, that's rediculous. You can have excellent MA and a crazy story. Some arts claim to come from dreams, from the gods, from drunkan fairies. These origins are clearly fictitious, yet the arts might hold up very well in real application.


Once you either succeed or fail in that endeavor you might realize whether any further study is necessary into the subject at all.

Once again, there are a million dodges, a million ways to change the subject, a million ways to devolve into personal attack and ruin the discussion. They, however, will solve nothing. You have every right to believe in whatever you like. However, if you expect anyone not in your club to take you seriously, you'll need to support those statements with *evidence*.

Nothing personal, if the situations were reversed, I'd feel the same way.

[Rolling_Hand]

planetwc wrote > Great to see another post from a real Hung Fa Yi student rather than posers like Rolling Hand.

William wrote > Since when has Roger Rolling Hand ever claimed he was a Hung Fa Yi student? I believe Rolling Hand has stated his lineage and it was not HFY. Do not twist the facts that have already been presented.

**David Planetwc, Why did you use RH's name to attack HFY and TWC families? What's your hidden agenda against RH?

planetwc wrote> I've also had the pleasure of rolling with a Hung Fa Yi student from the main HQ school several years ago. His poon sao and chi sao seemed quite in line with Yip Man style Wing Chun, I did not see him do any of the sets, so I base my commentary on the similarities of the material I have in my possession from the VTM.

William wrote > I want to clarify some misleading information that you have presented in more than one thread on this forum. The person that you "had the pleasure of rolling" with was actually a student of Eddie Chung for four years and then Kenneth Cheung for another six months before joining HFY. His total HFY experience was three months before you touched hands. It is no wonder there were similarities since he was likely doing Yip Man WC as it is very unlikey for him to have learned any HFY chi sau in those three months.

**I had met Kenneth Chung once through Eddie Chong. There're many untold stories between them. Rollinghand is a Ch'an practioner, and he doesn't like to spread rumors...but our friend David Planetwc is a different animal than RH.

William Wrote > Do I smell a hidden agenda against HFY planetwc? Tell us how you really feel....

**Someone smells coffee! The only thing I'd like to say to David - Every ending carries the seeds for a new beginning.

[canglong]

"May I ask why you, in your cut and paste, you excluded my request that you show me anything at all supporting your assumption that HFY and TWC were "older" than the Foshan lineages? Do you have any independantly verifiable, multi-sourced, factual evidence at all?" Rene

Sure you can ask. The reason being when I stated what I consider to be truth you didn't shoot off a post refutiating my statement just a request. If this argument was presented with evidence that was 100% irrefutabable on either side then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

"Then you take back what you said about HFY and TWC being older than the verifiable Foshan lineages?" Rene

Sure I'll take it back the day you prove me wrong :D

"With respect, that's rediculous. You can have excellent MA and a crazy story. Some arts claim to come from dreams, from the gods, from drunkan fairies. These origins are clearly fictitious, yet the arts might hold up very well in real application." Rene

Unlike you I can't begin to speak to or for those many other arts. I can tell you that the answers to what you seek can be found in the study of and application of HFYWCK, Chi Sim and possibly TWC themselves. You can choose to continue to be a doubting Thomas and see the glass as half empty but the problem you face is that everything before the Red Boat era is supposedly only been transmitted orally. So to you this means it may never be found although it has to have existed to give rise to foshan WCK. So you are stuck chasing your tail instead of moving forward.

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Canglong,



"Then you take back what you said about HFY and TWC being older than the verifiable Foshan lineages?" Rene

Sure I'll take it back the day you prove me wrong :D


That's ridiculous. I hereby make the claim that I am the true lineage holder of the oldest Wing Chun Kuen branch. It is called Golden Sun Wing Chun Six Harmonies Fist. My lineage extends back to the Yellow Emperor and was passed generation to generation in super secrecy, until now. It is not surprising that you've never heard of it until now because no one from my lineage has ever admitted it. But what I say is true because clearly, the Yellow Emperor's exisitence is well documented. Now for the first time ever, I will reveal the Golden Sun Wing Chun Six Harmonies Fist lineage.

Yellow Emporer->Jia Fu->Hong Ren->Hong Jin Xin->Hong Hue Jia->Jin Bao Tai->...->Wu Ming Da Xia->Guo Jin->Guo Shuang->Lu Xiao Fung->Chef Wu->me.

Now you prove me wrong.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[reneritchie]

Zhuge Liang,

Sure, but I learned the utmostest secretest version that Huang Di taught only to his 1st wife. You only learned the general version every secret disciple learned. We have the ultraest mostest effectivest 108th hand set and the bull frog boomerang.

Magazine articles, videos, and chain schools to come! Prove me wrong! Tee hee!

Tony,

LOL! I don't have to prove false any statements you made that you can't prove correct. It's your responsibility to support your own arguments. I can't do all the work! LOL!

And the argument about pre-Red Junk history is rediculous, as Zhuge Liang suggests. While we don't know precisely what happened, we do have some range of what did not happen (Bozo the Clown did not invent WCK and teach it to the Red Junk), and thusfar, the Shaolin theory suggested here seems more unlikely than not.

[planetwc]

Who is Kenneth Cheung?

Do you mean Kenneth Chung (the student of Leung Sheung) who I am currently studying with? If so, I don't think he was a student at our school I never saw him there nor do I think any of the long term (decades) students recognized him either during his time at the camp.

Or do you mean the Ken Chung who is a senior instructor under Chris Chan?

Given the stridency of Roger Rollinghand's comments and his secrecy regarding his training it is unclear if he is even a Wing Chun student. I'm not twisting anything at all and in fact you are making it even clearer that Rolling Hand has NO background or knowledge of Hung Fa Yi. Yet none of the Hung Fa Yi students have ever asked what HIS qualifications are to speak on HFY as they have say with Rene Ritchie.

I have no agenda here, I've stated quite clearly what my brief experiences are with regarding Hung Fa Yi in person and on video tape.

I still see no one from any HFY school able to clarify the differences between HFY and mainstream WCK--even those with background and training in both!


Originally posted by William E
planetwc wrote > Great to see another post from a real Hung Fa Yi student rather than posers like Rolling Hand.

Since when has Roger Rolling Hand ever claimed he was a Hung Fa Yi student? I believe Rolling Hand has stated his lineage and it was not HFY. Do not twist the facts that have already been presented.

planetwc wrote> I've also had the pleasure of rolling with a Hung Fa Yi student from the main HQ school several years ago. His poon sao and chi sao seemed quite in line with Yip Man style Wing Chun, I did not see him do any of the sets, so I base my commentary on the similarities of the material I have in my possession from the VTM.

I want to clarify some misleading information that you have presented in more than one thread on this forum. The person that you "had the pleasure of rolling" with was actually a student of Eddie Chung for four years and then Kenneth Cheung for another six months before joining HFY. His total HFY experience was three months before you touched hands. It is no wonder there were similarities since he was likely doing Yip Man WC as it is very unlikey for him to have learned any HFY chi sau in those three months.

Do I smell a hidden agenda against HFY planetwc? Tell us how you really feel....

:cool:

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Zhuge Liang
Hi Canglong,

That's ridiculous. I hereby make the claim that I am the true lineage holder of the oldest Wing Chun Kuen branch. It is called Golden Sun Wing Chun Six Harmonies Fist. My lineage extends back to the Yellow Emperor and was passed generation to generation in super secrecy, until now. It is not surprising that you've never heard of it until now because no one from my lineage has ever admitted it. But what I say is true because clearly, the Yellow Emperor's exisitence is well documented. Now for the first time ever, I will reveal the Golden Sun Wing Chun Six Harmonies Fist lineage.

Yellow Emporer->Jia Fu->Hong Ren->Hong Jin Xin->Hong Hue Jia->Jin Bao Tai->...->Wu Ming Da Xia->Guo Jin->Guo Shuang->Lu Xiao Fung->Chef Wu->me.

Now you prove me wrong.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang
Hi Zhuge Liang,

You should start another thread to support your claims. They certainly appear valid to me on the surface judging from your enormous credibility and clever wit.

As for my origins, I predate the Shaolin temple and Wing Chun. :D
If my bout with Beowulf (http://www.lone-star.net/literature/beowulf/index.html
) hadn't cut my career short, I'd have the longest unbeaten record in history. :p


Regards,

[Savi]

Originally posted by planetwc
I still see no one from any HFY school able to clarify the differences between HFY and mainstream WCK--even those with background and training in both!
Hi David (planetwc),
Although you do clarify your statement that you yourself have not seen any comparative differences discussed here from my family members does not mean it never happened.

I have made personal observations on a few occasions between the differences of what you call "mainstream WCK" to HFYWCK. The difficulty I find in making such comparisons, however, often lead to the...

"I have this and you don't! / Our lineage has this and yours doesn't." discussion of the 'egos', which tend to become traps of their own nature. Personally, I feel no need to compare one thing to another, as everything has its own uniqueness and identity.

[Geezer]

planetwc Wrote>

in fact you are making it even clearer that Rolling Hand has NO background or knowledge of Hung Fa Yi.

Nor have I, I've met with a memeber from the VTM, but I don't think my knowledge or background is any less than yours??????

planetwc Wrote>

Yet none of the Hung Fa Yi students have ever asked what HIS qualifications are to speak on HFY as they have say with Rene Ritchie.

I didn't see where Roger was actually talking about HFY in a way that made out as if he trained or knew anything about it in detail????And what qualifications are needed to be a supporter.

Sheldon

[planetwc]

Rolling Hand (t)rolls on with yet another empty post. :rolleyes:
How can someone so afraid of their own shadow even comment on pride?

You have no credibility to begin with and are in negative space when it comes to even HFY.

As to agenda's, look who is talking!

Yours is to continue to snipe anonymously, to hide and cavile and play the role of troll on this forum. Isn't your plate full enough without speaking for others and to rail on about things which you have NO knowledge about?

The utterings of Mo Duk, from you, the biggest uncouth lout on this forum is quite laughable. Look to your own attacks and litany of disrepect before even trying to use that phrase again.

Here is an exercise for you. Pretend that you actually DO study Wing Chun and actually HAVE a sifu. Then imagine showing him all your posts here and admitting that you were the one posting this trash anonymously. Perhaps you might get a real exercise in Mo Duk on your way out of the school premises.


Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
<<Given the stridency of Roger Rollinghand's comments and his secrecy regarding his training it is unclear if he is even a Wing Chun student. I'm not twisting anything at all and in fact you are making it even clearer that Rolling Hand has NO background or knowledge of Hung Fa Yi. Yet none of the Hung Fa Yi students have ever asked what HIS qualifications are to speak on HFY as they have say with Rene Ritchie.>>Planetwc

**Given the cosmic climate for suprise upsets, it makes sense to bet on PlaneWC. You could be demanding more than you're due. It's not selfishness, but hurt pride talking. Take time to separate feelings from Jack in the box.

<<I have no agenda here, I've stated quite clearly what my brief experiences are with regarding Hung Fa Yi in person and on video tape.>>Planetwc

**hahaha...listen to yourself! Your agenda is bigger than a gaint black hole.

<<I still see no one from any HFY school able to clarify the differences between HFY and mainstream WCK--even those with background and training in both!>>Planeywc

**You know you're bluffing, but don't worry. Continue acting like you can see the writing on Ken Chung's school wall - "Mok Duk", and you friends will swear they can, too.

[William E]

planetec wrote> You have no credibility to begin with and are in negative space when it comes to even HFY.

Who are you to determine who is in what space when it comes to HFY? Although Rolling Hand is not a HFY student I aplaud him for keeping an open mind unlike others on this forum.....

[reneritchie]

I went to dictionary.com and no where under "open mind" did I find the definition "== people who agree". People who disagree with you *are* being open minded. They're keeping their mind open to a possibility you're rejecting. Think. Ponder. Meditate.

[planetwc]

William,

Who am I? I am someone who has watched your fellow HFY students castigate those who have actually met both GM Gee and other HFY instructors IN PERSON demonstrating the system, being castigated for not having enough qualifications to have an opinion on the system.

Yet Rolling Hand hasn't done the same thing yet he is lauded by some in the HFY community for being probably the staunchest supporter of something he knows nothing about having not been to a friendship seminar or touched hands with anyone from the HFY family.

For this he is "open minded", for others who have been there and done it--somehow they are "uniformed and confused or mistaken".

To my mind an anonymous troll like Roger Rollinghand therefore has less credibility. It is that simple and logical. Yet there is the seeming tolerance from the HFY students here of "Roger's" behavior towards others who question HFY and it's precepts here on this forum. There is no distancing from him, rather there seems to be encouragement of his trolling and character assassinations. Where is the repudiation of him by the numerous HFY students on this forum? There are quite enough of you to effectively TRULY represent your art without having have him as "defender of the HFY faith"?

The "Others" on this forum have asked time and time again for evidence regarding many of the claims made within the printed (Kung Fu/Qigong mag) and website articles (on the vtm) and have found little but silence and "you have to experience it in person--it can't be written". Yet many of the same questioners HAVE seen it in person, and HAVE personally met your Grandmaster and HFY students at such sharing seminars. Now we are told wait for the book. Yet how can that have answers if it all has to be face to face?




Originally posted by William E
planetec wrote> You have no credibility to begin with and are in negative space when it comes to even HFY.

Who are you to determine who is in what space when it comes to HFY? Although Rolling Hand is not a HFY student I aplaud him for keeping an open mind unlike others on this forum.....

[Geezer]

Who are "YOU" actually attacking here, Rolling Hand or the HFY practioners:confused: or both??

Sheldon??

[planetwc]

Hey Sheldon,

1. I'm attacking Rolling Hand.

2. I am questioning why HFY practitioners have not disavowed his behavior.


Originally posted by Geezer
Who are "YOU" actually attacking here, Rolling Hand or the HFY practioners:confused: or both??

Sheldon??

[Train]

PlanetWCsaid:(There are quite enough of you to effectively TRULY represent your art without having have him as "defender of the HFY faith"?)

To me Rollinghand is not defending HFY. He is just giving his opinion like everyone in this forum. Why would the HFY people question Rollinghand anyways? he never has any negative things to say about HFY.

[canglong]

"With respect, that's rediculous. You can have excellent MA and a crazy story. Some arts claim to come from dreams, from the gods, from drunkan fairies. These origins are clearly fictitious, yet the arts might hold up very well in real application." Rene

Well then we disagree again. It has been my experience that genius doesn't happen through osmosis.

"You have every right to believe in whatever you like. However, if you expect anyone not in your club to take you seriously, you'll need to support those statements with *evidence*." Rene

I would agree 1. if I were after your admiration or membership as you put it 2. if this were a debate instead of a discussion but seeing that we are discussing known hypothesis and their subsequent facts I chose to keep to the core of the discussion. For me that was a simple question of why you choose to differentiate between "Foshan WCK and TWC, Chi Sim, and HFY. The history of which came first can be a seperate thread.

"Now for the first time ever, I will reveal the Golden Sun Wing Chun Six Harmonies Fist lineage. Yellow Emporer->Jia Fu->Hong Ren->Hong Jin Xin->Hong Hue Jia->Jin Bao Tai->...->Wu Ming Da Xia->Guo Jin->Guo Shuang->Lu Xiao Fung->Chef Wu->me. Now you prove me wrong." Zhuge Liang

Zhuge Liang, I am not mad at you, congratulations, I do not resent you or Golden Sun WCK, therefore; I find no need to discredit you or your kung fu I leave that to others who do harbor that resentment towards other's lineages for whatever reason. I may not understand it fully but I can appreciate the journey of self....may I add though I hope for your sake you have another art to fall back on when the sh*t hits the fan.

[Geezer]

planetwc Wrote>

There are quite enough of you to effectively TRULY represent your art without having have him as "defender of the HFY faith"?

Hey if he supports the HFY guys that's great......where's the harm in that??, are "YOU" basically tellings us that if your not a member of the HFY family, you can't show your support:confused: ??????

Who appointed you "Grand Pooba"??, this is still a free country and I will show my support for whomever I wish;)


Sheldon

[reneritchie]

Hi Tony,


Well then we disagree again. It has been my experience that genius doesn't happen through osmosis.

I think we're just talking past each other. Many TCMA have fantastic origin stories, right? Whatever their true origins, and regardless of the stories, many of these arts are still effective, right?

Here's an example. The most common origin story for WCK is the nun, Ng Mui. Do you believe this story? And even if you don't, does the story or your belief in it make the art any more or less effective? The same, IMHO, hold true for Shaolin or Tan Sao Ng stories. Whether they're factual or fictional doesn't change the current quality of the art.

Here's another example. My sijo, Cheung Bo, told people he learned from a monk. He didn't really learn from a monk, though. He learned from a member of the Nationalist Army who, following the rise of the PRC would have had a lot of problems had he been mentioned or connected to. So my sijo just said he learned from a monk, and everyone was safe and sound. Perhaps if some didn't know the reasons, didn't understand the history or culture, they'd fill themselves with righteous indignation and insult anyone who dared say he didn't really learn from a monk, or they'd get offended and ask if we were calling him a "liar", but they'd be showing their own limitations, and the art and my sijo would not be in that.


I would agree 1. if I were after your admiration or membership as you put it

Sure you're after it. That's what all this is about, isn't it? If you weren't, you (general) probably wouldn't devolve into the personal attacks and other passionate, needful acts.


2. if this were a debate instead of a discussion but seeing that we are discussing known hypothesis and their subsequent facts I chose to keep to the core of the discussion.

Where?


For me that was a simple question of why you choose to differentiate between "Foshan WCK and TWC, Chi Sim, and HFY. The history of which came first can be a seperate thread.

Er... I didn't mention Chi Sim WCK, *you* did, all the HFY folks do, they link themselves to it as much and as often as possible, despite Andreas Hoffmann sifu's *repeated* requests that his art not be involved (and despite the fact that Hoffmann sifu never seems to need to link himself or his art to HFY ;) )

*You* claimed HFY and TWC were older than Foshan WCK, and I asked if you *anything* at all to back up that claim. Apparently, you don't.

Train,


To me Rollinghand is not defending HFY. He is just giving his opinion like everyone in this forum. Why would the HFY people question Rollinghand anyways? he never has any negative things to say about HFY.

Because the true sign of character is not in how you treat those that agree with you, but how you treat those that disagree with you. If you support someone who insults others just not you, who will be left when that person, as is their nature, eventually turns on you


I am questioning why HFY practitioners have not disavowed his behavior.

I would question why the VTM doesn't disavow themselves of his behavior, and why their publicly known members give him positive re-enforcement on the threads, considering he almost exclusively attacks other lineages (Augustine Fong in particular, who they list (or did list if its been changed) as an advisor on their site) and other practitioners on this board, and through a variety of fake aliases on the former VTAA board, which would seem to be *directly* counter to the VTMs mission statement. While perhaps they feel some shoddenfreuda as he tends to target people with whom they have disagreements, IMHO this is short sighted and the overall damage to the art, and the tarnish he will lend their image, will be more far reaching, not to mention the fact that such people are often borderline anyway, and could easily turn against them at the wrong word or imagined slight.

[Geezer]

Rene Wrote>

My sijo, Cheung Bo, told people he learned from a monk. He didn't really learn from a monk, though. He learned from a member of the Nationalist Army who, following the rise of the PRC would have had a lot of problems had he been mentioned or connected to. So my sijo just said he learned from a monk, and everyone was safe and sound.

So this came about for political reasons, "hide the truth for fear of retribution from the government".........hmmmmmm?? Sounds familiar??

Rene Wrote>

I didn't mention Chi Sim WCK, *you* did, all the HFY folks do, they link themselves to it as much and as often as possible, despite Andreas Hoffmann sifu's *repeated* requests that his art not be involved

Rene.....if you take such offence to Rolling Hands comments and you don't like the fact he stands up for the HFY practioners and "you" feel they can do it well enough by themselves, then why do "you" keep on making reference to Hoffmann Sifu not wanting Chi Sim brought up. Has he told you explicitly he wants "you" to represent him or Chi Sim on this board????

Rene Wrote>

counter to the VTMs mission statement

If Rolling Hand is not a representative for the VTM why do you care, again I think the VTM can speak for themselves.


Sheldon

[yuanfen]

Rene said;

I would question why the VTM doesn't disavow themselves of his behavior, and why their publicly known members give him positive re-enforcement on the threads, considering he almost exclusively attacks other lineages (Augustine Fong in particular, who they list (or did list if its been changed) as an advisor on their site) and other practitioners on this board, and through a variety of fake aliases on the former VTAA board, which would seem to be *directly* counter to the VTMs mission statement.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is a reflection on the standards of accuracy put out by the VTM.
Augustine Fong is not an "advisor" to the VTM.

[desertwingchun2]

Sure you're after it. That's what all this is about, isn't it? If you weren't, you (general) probably wouldn't devolve into the personal attacks and other passionate, needful acts. - RR

LOL!! Are you serious Rene? Do you really think people are seeking your admiration or membership into the HFYWC family?? Oh man, get over yourself.
From my experience on here, anytime we discuss HFYWC a small group of people tend to start in with vieled (sp?) insults and/or comments off topic and that quickly leads to thread deterioration.

I didn't mention Chi Sim WCK, *you* did, all the HFY folks do, they link themselves to it as much and as often as possible - RR

Um ... all of us?? :confused:

Because the true sign of character is not in how you treat those that agree with you, but how you treat those that disagree with you.- RR

And how !!! If I disagree with someone I would not make grandious assuptions regarding thier knowledge. I certainly wouldn't take comments they made out of context and use those comments in an attempt to insult them. That would truly show one's character now wouldn't it Rene?

As for Rolling_Hand, I think he's quick-witted, intellegent and very open-minded. Those are good things to be in my book. At times he makes me laugh out loud. Other times I have no clue whats going on. He is definetly his own keeper. I guess I would "give him positive re-enforcement", if that's what you wanna call it, because you always know where you stand with that guy. Anyways, I don't speak for the museum. I speak for me. My posts are from my understanding on various topics. That's all.

-David

[reneritchie]

LOL!! Are you serious Rene? Do you really think people are seeking your admiration or membership into the HFYWC family?? Oh man, get over yourself.

Not me personally, but the general WCK community, for sure.


From my experience on here, anytime we discuss HFYWC a small group of people tend to start in with vieled (sp?) insults and/or comments off topic and that quickly leads to thread deterioration.

From my experience here, anytime we start a general discussion, some HFY member interjects HFY into it, insisting the HFY perspective is somehow better than any other, and when asked to support the insistence, begins personal attacks. Then, a *large* group of people, with no connection at all to each other, from different lineages, different countries, different age groups, etc. with very few other opinions in common, try to point this out, and are then absurdly accused of being in collusion. Then everyone gets embroiled and the thread deteriorates.

We all have to take responsibility for our parts in it, or we can't change it. You've been told many, many times by many, many different people how you come off, and you choose not to believe it, and choose instead to come up with bizarre conspiracy theories. Perhaps, even if you think it crazy, consider for a moment what these many other people, including myself have said, and think that, maybe even if unintentional, people aren't receiving the HFY information in the manner you would like, then see if you can't come up with a better model for communication.


And how !!! If I disagree with someone I would not make grandious assuptions regarding thier knowledge. I certainly wouldn't take comments they made out of context and use those comments in an attempt to insult them. That would truly show one's character now wouldn't it Rene?

If it makes you feel better about yourself and the behavior of HFY to lump it all on me, I can't help you with that. All I can suggest is that you remember I've been dealing with this issue longer than you, longer than your sifu, and longer than your sigung, and that I may have different experiences and understands which while you might dislike them, find them unsettling or inconvenient, may still be worthwhile to consider.


As for Rolling_Hand, I think he's quick-witted, intellegent and very open-minded.

Because he posts about "Fong's Fake Wing Chun" instead of "David's Fake Wing Chun?" Because he personally insults other lineages and sifu and not yours? Good for you. (until he changes targets).

[desertwingchun2]

From my experience here, anytime we start a general discussion, .... Then everyone gets embroiled and the thread deteriorates. - RR

What a surprise, your experience differs from mine. I wouldn't expect you to say anything else. Except that recently we were talking about essentially the same thing and you had a different recollection of your experiences.

Remember when we were talking and I said ....

"The problem I see is when the answers are given there is a small group ready to immediately initiate insults and challenges. Terence's comments on this thread are a prime example. There are others who are more subtle. But none the less detract from the discussion. -DWC2"

And you said:

That's equally valid and I think its important, if anyone wants to move past the cycle, that we admit the fault rests with all of us, and take responsibility for our own part(s) in it. IMHO, gowing back several years now, few if any of us have much to be proud of with these long series of threads. We've all acted pretty badly at one time or another, and we seem to have trouble putting that aside. - RR

So anyways ....

You've been told many, many times by many, many different people how you come off, and you choose not to believe it, and choose instead to come up with bizarre conspiracy theories ... , people aren't receiving the HFY information in the manner you would like, then see if you can't come up with a better model for communication.- RR

Are you talking "you" as a general term? Or me personally? Because if you're speaking to me personally you have me confused with someone else.

If it makes you feel better about yourself and the behavior of HFY to lump it all on me, I can't help you with that.- RR

HAHAHA !!!! Deflection. You still can't admit to your own behavior. Oh man, you and O.J. You know he's still lookin for the real killers?
Believe it or not Rene I never asked for your help.

Because he posts about "Fong's Fake Wing Chun" .... Good for you. (until he changes targets).

Um no. Because of the reasons I listed in my post.

-David

[Train]

Hi DesertWC2,

I see what you mean about Rene's comments now. He does contridict himself and I don't think he notices it. ohhh wells :) Maybe i'm trippin. I got to say I like to read your posts DesertWC2 becuase you make me lauph man!! You make the posts more interesting to read. Keep up the good work dude!!!

[Savi]

Originally posted by reneritchie
If it makes you feel better about yourself and the behavior of HFY to lump it all on me, I can't help you with that.
Rene,
The comment you have made about the behavior of HFY is entirely incorrect. True there are HFY practitioners who participate on this forum, but do so in a fashion to only represent themselves and can stand on their own two feet. I know for a fact just by your statement you have absolutely no clue as to the "behavior" of HFY. Although I am inclined to receive this comment as hostile and insulting to my family - being that your statement above encompasses HFY as a whole - I will respond to it with my family's policy of:

Ng Wuh Sei Hoi Waih Yaht Ga. What this means is that we treat everyone as if a guest in our own home, wherever we go. This is the hospitality of the HFY family, and is quite contrary to your claim of HFY behavior.


Originally posted by reneritchie
All I can suggest is that you remember I've been dealing with this issue longer than you, longer than your sifu, and longer than your sigung, and that I may have different experiences and understands which while you might dislike them, find them unsettling or inconvenient, may still be worthwhile to consider.
Rene,
Only a person of ego chooses to push their weight around and try to put people in their 'place.' The manner in which you have chosen to discuss your presumed 'authority' here is quite distasteful and in fact is an attempt to not only put David in a position below you, but also MY Sigung and MY Sifu by the mere mention of them. Tenure is not the qualifier for superiority or authority. I think you should reread your post and ask yourself who is out of line. This comment I will also let slide and not take as insult, but for one who preaches to the choir, hipocrasy seems to be a common card in your deck.

You seriously need to rethink your strategy here and leave your personal thoughts about my family off the forum, as you so insistently remind others to do.

Farewell.

[William E]

rene wrote> From my experience here, anytime we start a general discussion, some HFY member interjects HFY into it, insisting the HFY perspective is somehow better than any other, and when asked to support the insistence, begins personal attacks.

Rene, once again you spread mistruths in your posts. There have been occassions when my HFY brothers have truly added to posts with their perspective on the topic being discussed. I have not seen them insisting the HFY perspective is somehow better than any other. Anyone who regularly reads this forum knows that Jeremy, Mike Mathews, Savi, David and others have contributed good technical information. I personally believe if one wants to know about the system then they should study it in person and not through internet forums but yet we have shared. The attacks seem to come from you against HFY.

[Zhuge Liang]

Originally posted by canglong
Zhuge Liang, I am not mad at you, congratulations, I do not resent you or Golden Sun WCK, therefore; I find no need to discredit you or your kung fu

Then it's settled. Golden Sun Wing Chun Six Harmonies Fist (GSWCSHF) is the oldest branch of Wing Chun! Woo hoo! You heard it here first!

HFY is still the second oldest Wing Chun branch, which is not a bad place to be.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[Grendel]

Originally posted by yylee

true, but it seems we shift from NOT a thing to MANY things since childhood.

Hi yylee,

The article you cited to begin this thread before it got hijacked, Paradign Shift by Terance Rangi (http://www.hchwingchun.com.au/article07.htm), is well worth reading and considering. Before I get into the issues, thanks for bringing it to the forum's attention. :D

As you have grasped, Hendrik and you are in agreement in spite of what he wrote immediately preceeding. As he points out, before we "learn" bad habits, there is nothing to unlearn. However, for most humans there is much to unlearn when one approaches Wing Chun. As the article also points out, humans by nature have built-in proclivity towards using brute strength. Hendrik would appear to seek to return to the "first state" before attempting to conquer the Wing Chun mountain.

I am not sure that all of us go through the same levels of learning. Like all on the great wheel, we tend to get "stuck" at one level. Since the perception of Wing Chun as a martial art centers around "winning," it is very difficult for some of us, me included, to give up what has always worked for us, in the hope and promise of receiving the "grace" of effortless Wing Chun.

One can only hope for the most part that one has what it takes and that one's teacher can show the way.


The logically mind still needs to be convinced in order to give way for the better things to happen.

Right. We all carry a lot of mental baggage.


Let's just say, to shift from hard-soft art into a "no tense" internal path; much conscious effort is needed.
As the article says, it is a cyclical proceeding, constantly reiterating itself along a ideally upward spiral.

The article also gives insight into the use of imagery. I haven't explored that aspect, so I plan to give it a try.

But, regarding the second point, "The Brain cannot assimilate External and Internal generated sensory input in a particular sensory channel at the same moment in time," it reminds me of Bruce Lee's movie aphorism about "emotional content." :D I can see the value in a relaxed physical and emotional state for creating proper imagery.

PERFECT PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT, NOT PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT.

"Remember to keep your desires or outcomes that you want lively in your Mind, because all the Mechanisms necessary for the fulfillment of those desires are inherent in the desires themselves. Always remember that whatever you pay attention to in your mind grows strongly in your life."

Be careful what you wish for it may come true.....

Great insights. Are you a student of Chu Shong Tin yourself?

Regards,

[Savi]

Originally posted by reneritchie
...all the HFY folks do, they link themselves to it as much and as often as possible, despite Andreas Hoffmann sifu's *repeated* requests that his art not be involved...
Rene,
You do not have any grounds whatsoever to judge the relationship of the HFY family to the Chi Sim family. Your comments above are false, and uncalled for.

If you attempt to create disharmony within the families of the Gong Wu, you will end up destroying yourself.

[Savi]

Sorry Grendel, thank you for trying to bring the thread back to its original discussion. Gotta address some incorrect claims though...

[Grendel]

Originally posted by kj

Yes, it's a nice article; there are many thoughtful essays on that site (http://www.hchwingchun.com.au/) .

As referenced in the article, research has shown that imagery can effectively supplement (not replace) training to enhance physical performance. A a mixed bag of related links:

That's what the article said. :p


Sports Psychology (http://www.mindtools.com/page11.html)
Mental Imagery (http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/mental.htm)
Imagery in Sports (research and article abstracts) (http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/csa/vol26/table.htm)
The Use of Psychological Skills by Female Collegiate Swimmers (with comparative results) (http://www.trancenet.org/research/1999thiese.shtml)

Tell me you didn't just pull a Google on us? :p

I'm just posting to try to rescue this thread. :(

Regards,

[reneritchie]

LOL! Sounds like some people need a hug!

Grendel, thanks for trying to bring folks back on topic. I'm still waiting for someone, *anyone* to offer any independantly verifiable evidence to suggest TWC or HFY (note absence of mention of CS ;) ) are any older than the Foshan lineages...

[yylee]

Hi Grendel

>>The article you cited to begin this thread before it got hijacked, Paradign Shift by Terance Rangi (http://www.hchwingchun.com.au/article07.htm), is well worth reading and considering. Before I get into the issues, thanks for bringing it to the forum's attention. :D - Grendel

---See, this thread's own paradigm has shifted many times before you bring it back!

>>As you have grasped, Hendrik and you are in agreement in spite of what he wrote immediately preceeding. As he points out, before we "learn" bad habits, there is nothing to unlearn. .......One can only hope for the most part that one has what it takes and that one's teacher can show the way. - Grendel

---Hendrik is in a different paradigm :)


>>Right. We all carry a lot of mental baggage.

---agreed.


>>As the article says, it is a cyclical proceeding, constantly reiterating itself along a ideally upward spiral. - Grendel

---as we progress, sometimes we make one step forward but fall two steps back. Sometimes we suddenly grasp something great but lose it right-a-way, end up being frustrated.

>>The article also gives insight into the use of imagery. I haven't explored that aspect, so I plan to give it a try. - Grendel

---go check out the "circles" thread.


>>Be careful what you wish for it may come true.....

---be careful about Hendrik's theta brain wave :D, fantacy comes true.....


>>Great insights. Are you a student of Chu Shong Tin yourself?

--- my sifu is a student of Chu Shong Tin. I am fairly new to Chu Shong Tin's line, only 4-5 years into it. Before this, I spent a number of years in a different WC lineage, so I still have lots to unlearn and relearn.

regards
yylee

[kj]

Originally posted by Grendel
<snip good stuff>However, for most humans there is much to unlearn when one approaches Wing Chun. As the article also points out, humans by nature have built-in proclivity towards using brute strength. <snip lots more good stuff>

An "A+" post.

Regards,
- kj

[taltos]

In reference to the original thread's title...

I found this on Merriam-Webster Online:

paradigm

Etymology: Late Latin paradigma, from Greek paradeigma, from paradeiknynai to show side by side, from para- + deiknynai to show

1 : EXAMPLE, PATTERN; especially : an outstandingly clear or typical example or archetype

2 : an example of a conjugation or declension showing a word in all its inflectional forms

3 : a philosophical and theoretical framework of a scientific school or discipline within which theories, laws, and generalizations and the experiments performed in support of them are formulated

To me, when someone uses the phrase "paradigm shift," it is referring to a shift or change in a way of thinking. Using the definitions above, I'd say a paradigm shift occurs when definition #1 causes things to fall into place such that definition #3 becomes intellectually available.

Whenever a change in the way you think occurs with such clarity that you can no longer understand how you missed it before, I'd call that a paradigm shift. Enlightenment, I would say, is another example.

Of course, I think the framework of it's appearance in this forum most likely refers to a new/different way of thinking about and approaching WC in particular. A way that casts things in a light you did not see before, yet suddenly makes perfect sense.

I could see how a paradigm shift could CAUSE a change in stance, footwork, etc (as referenced in the first post), but I don't think those changes are the shift itself - rather, they would be EFFECTS of the shift.

...Just my 2 cents...


-Levi

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Levi,

See... there your go. You ruin a perfectly good post by bringing logic and thought into it. LOL.

I was kinda wondering where the paridigm shift was in this thread. I never did see it. I guess it is a catchy title though

Tom
________
TEEN SLEEPING (http://www.****tube.com/categories/1049/sleeping/videos/1)

[Grendel]

Originally posted by yylee
Hi Grendel

>>The article you cited to begin this thread before it got hijacked, Paradign Shift by Terance Rangi (http://www.hchwingchun.com.au/article07.htm), is well worth reading and considering. Before I get into the issues, thanks for bringing it to the forum's attention. :D - Grendel

---See, this thread's own paradigm has shifted many times before you bring it back!

I think the term "paradigm shift" confused some in the discussion who didn't read the article. In the article it refers to is a change in one's thinking so that our cognitive behaviors can be changed to better suit Wing Chun's concepts. If anyone hasn't read the article, they should.


>>As you have grasped, Hendrik and you are in agreement in spite of what he wrote immediately preceeding. As he points out, before we "learn" bad habits, there is nothing to unlearn. .......One can only hope for the most part that one has what it takes and that one's teacher can show the way. - Grendel

---Hendrik is in a different paradigm :)

Yes, he has his own perspective, of course, as do we all.


>>Right. We all carry a lot of mental baggage.

---agreed.

My own mental baggage got lost in flight a few times. :D Luckily, there are some here who can retrieve it for me. :p


>>As the article says, it is a cyclical proceeding, constantly reiterating itself along a ideally upward spiral. - Grendel

---as we progress, sometimes we make one step forward but fall two steps back. Sometimes we suddenly grasp something great but lose it right-a-way, end up being frustrated.

We've all had those experiences. Even when I write down my grasp of something, it often still slips away from mind over time, and I have to rediscover later on.


>>The article also gives insight into the use of imagery. I haven't explored that aspect, so I plan to give it a try. - Grendel

---go check out the "circles" thread.

OK. That's not about a long distance phone service, is it? :)


>>Be careful what you wish for it may come true.....

---be careful about Hendrik's theta brain wave :D, fantacy comes true.....

Perception is the reality. :D


>>Great insights. Are you a student of Chu Shong Tin yourself?

--- my sifu is a student of Chu Shong Tin.

From the writings on CST's lineage, he must be a great teacher. I know it's true, because it agrees with my own beliefs. :D


I am fairly new to Chu Shong Tin's line, only 4-5 years into it. Before this, I spent a number of years in a different WC lineage, so I still have lots to unlearn and relearn.

I know what you mean. I constantly try to warn folks away from taking the "wrong" direction in Wing Chun. If only they knew how wise I am. :p

Regards,

[Grendel]

Hi Levi,

Originally posted by taltos
In reference to the original thread's title...

I found this on Merriam-Webster Online:

paradigm

Etymology: Late Latin paradigma, from Greek paradeigma, from paradeiknynai to show side by side, from para- + deiknynai to show

1 : EXAMPLE, PATTERN; especially : an outstandingly clear or typical example or archetype

2 : an example of a conjugation or declension showing a word in all its inflectional forms

3 : a philosophical and theoretical framework of a scientific school or discipline within which theories, laws, and generalizations and the experiments performed in support of them are formulated

And the same source gives the three first definitions of shift as:

1 : to exchange for or replace by another : CHANGE
2 a : to change the place, position, or direction of : MOVE b : to make a change in (place)
3 : to change phonetically
intransitive senses
1 a : to change place or position b : to change direction <the wind shifted> c : to change gears d : to depress the shift key (as on a typewriter)
2 a : to assume responsibility <had to shift for themselves> b : to resort to expedients
3 a : to go through a change b : to change one's clothes c : to become changed phonetically


To me, when someone uses the phrase "paradigm shift," it is referring to a shift or change in a way of thinking. Using the definitions above, I'd say a paradigm shift occurs when definition #1 causes things to fall into place such that definition #3 becomes intellectually available.

Whenever a change in the way you think occurs with such clarity that you can no longer understand how you missed it before, I'd call that a paradigm shift. Enlightenment, I would say, is another example.

Of course, I think the framework of it's appearance in this forum most likely refers to a new/different way of thinking about and approaching WC in particular. A way that casts things in a light you did not see before, yet suddenly makes perfect sense.

No. You should read the article. As I previously pointed out, the paradigm shift in reference refers to is a change in one's thinking so that our cognitive behaviors can be changed to better suit Wing Chun's concepts.


I could see how a paradigm shift could CAUSE a change in stance, footwork, etc (as referenced in the first post), but I don't think those changes are the shift itself - rather, they would be EFFECTS of the shift.

On this I agree. And to go further along those lines, what justification could there be to create these changes to the system without some new insight?

Regards,

[Grendel]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
I was kinda wondering where the paridigm shift was in this thread. I never did see it. I guess it is a catchy title though
Tom, you missed it too? Then read my last three posts.

Regards,

[yylee]

Originally posted by Grendel

OK. That's not about a long distance phone service, is it? :)


No, it is about "crop circles". Wing Chun has alien DNA, right?

[yuanfen]

Catchy title is all that you get Tom...

if you missed the shift- the roadrunner went fast by you.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by yylee


No, it is about "crop circles". Wing Chun has alien DNA, right?
Yes. Apparently. :D

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Grendel and Yuanfen,

Yup, it past right by me. LOL. Thats OK. I rarely have time to keep up with the various discussions. I try. I actually wasn't refering to the articals. I have not read them as I have been a bit busy, but will as you suggest. I was speaking of the thread in general, and to be honest, I thought this post was a different one. A bit of confusion on my part. But like Levi, I have not really seen any thing that would be considred a paridigm shift in wing chun. In marital arts in general, maybe, but not really in Wing Chun. I think the majority are doing things the "traditional" way, or in some "modified" way. But there is no unity or anything. I would think the last paridigm change would be the luk sau platorm in Chi Sau training.

Tom
________
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[desertwingchun2]

Hey Train you know who's making me laugh now? It's Grendel! My sihing Levi gives his *opinion* on what a paradigm shift is and what it means to *him*. He even began his post by stating: "In reference to the original thread's title..."- Taltos

Then Grendel says ....

"No. You should read the article."

What is this the title of the thread? It's ... paradigm shift, what is it? not ..... paradigm shift, read an article and expound on Grendel's definition

Oh well maybe he's part of that "small group" that some people validated then forgot about or maybe he just needs a hug.

Hey Grendel, real quick, whats your real name? Hmmm ....

- David

[Train]

Hi Dave,

Grendal is a real character huh?? LOL
If you think that's funny, you should read the Pan Nam WC thread. Tell me what you think about the comment he made on Sifu Eddie Chong. I told him it was disrespectfull and he got ****ed off dude :) ohhh wells

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
Hi Grendel and Yuanfen,

I would think the last paridigm change would be the luk sau platorm in Chi Sau training.

Tom

Hey Tom,
I'm curious as to how you think that luk sau is a paradigm shift from the older chi sau platforms. thanks.

[yuanfen]

Yikes- dictionary definitions again. For a helpful discussion of paradigm's see: Kuhn- The Structure of Scientific Revolutions.
When the implications behind an operation are already in the theory- its not really a paradigm shift- which is far more fundamental- and happens less(Newton- Einstein- Bohr) than folks who sling the word around imagine.
Luk sao is not a paradigm shift- the implications are embedded in wing chun structure and motion. Doesnt matter who does it and who doesnt. Good wing chun does.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Burnsypoo,


Originally posted by burnsypoo


Hey Tom,
I'm curious as to how you think that luk sau is a paradigm shift from the older chi sau platforms. thanks. ,

Perhaps it is because I am primarily from a Yip Man-centric view point. LOL. The luk sau platform may not be any better than any other platform, though some of us may think so. It does refine ones skill in a specific way by drilling exact motions and I think is easier to focus on the structure. But that is not what I really meant. The luk sau platform is obviously used by "older" lineages dispite its newer creation. ; ) Also other styles outside of wing chun are incorporating the drill. It clearly has had an impact. OK, maybe I overstated my position a bit. LOL.

Tom
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[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
Hi Burnsypoo,

Perhaps it is because I am primarily from a Yip Man-centric view point. LOL. The luk sau platform may not be any better than any other platform, though some of us may think so. It does refine ones skill in a specific way by drilling exact motions and I think is easier to focus on the structure. But that is not what I really meant. The luk sau platform is obviously used by "older" lineages dispite its newer creation. ; ) Also other styles outside of wing chun are incorporating the drill. It clearly has had an impact. OK, maybe I overstated my position a bit. LOL.

Tom

Hey Tfunk,
that's cool, I just didn't understand why you'd consider it a paradigm shift. Seems just like a natural evolution instead of a new way of thinking.

Though maybe something like forward energy could've been a paradigm shift, bringing about a new platform like Luk Sau to support it. Not to debate this point, just using this as an example of something considered a paradigm shift, affecting the system in whole.

[Savi]

I do not think that Luk Sau is, in essense, a paradigm shift. My reasoning is this:

1) I understand Luk Sau (from my training in YMWCK) as a fundamental aspect of Chi Sau. Luk Sau serves as a 'platform' to hone your energetics after developing the proper structures from the 'Puhn/Poon Sau Platform'. How the progression is used at our kwoon is this:

A) Space:
Poon Sau

B) Energy:
Luk Sau

C) Time:
Jip Sau/Jow Sau - Tsui Mah - Syeung Chi Sau (single and double hand strikes)

To me, Luk Sau is part of the picture and was never seperate from it. But to clarify, I speak from my own reference point. If it was 'added' to Wing Chun, I think it does not qualify to be a paradigm as it then seems to be only a minor change allowing practitioners a specific level focusing on energy.

2) I understand 'Paradigm Shift' to be on two levels. Whereas one person's perspective is completely affected (major change) by an 'enlightenment' as Levi used as an example. Or when a group of people share in the experience of that same 'enlightenment.' A paradigm shift is more like the difference between night and day. An example of a minor change I think would be more like a 60W light bulb coming on.

[reneritchie]

Savi is correct. If you are familar with YKS/SN, Gulao, Cho, etc. lineages, then you'll see Luk Sao is just the next step in the evolution of Chi Sao platforms, and came as a logical development of the Huen Sao and Ngoi/Noi Liem platforms, which themselves evolved as the natural next-steps from Fujian/Hakka (or whatever you choose to see as the root) type grinding/touching hands.