Pan nam Wing chun

[Grinding Hands]

Does anyone here study Pan Nam or have any experience with this style? Would you guys please give me some info.

[tparkerkfo]

I briefly studied it. Our main style was Hong Kong (Read Ken Chung) style of wing chun. Occasionaly our sigung would visit and teach us the Pan Nam form. I am familiar with all the forms except the weapons. I don't have much insite into the applications, specifically. Atleast I didn't see much of a difference from what he was showing us and what Yip Man wing chun was like. It was kind of blured together I guess.

What would you like to know? I might be able to help.

Tom
________
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[Grinding Hands]

I was wondering how different it was from Yip Man's style techniquely and conceptually. How did the forms look like compared to Yip man's? Was there anything you liked or didn't like?

[tparkerkfo]

It depends what your looking at. At the time I thought it was VERY different as the choreography looked different. However, I have to say that it pretty much is the same. Just depepnds on what level you look at it. Over all, it is similar.

There are some major differences from, what I was taught in wing chun. The horse is more like a traditional southern horse stance except it is much higher. Footwork is more 50/50 instead of 100/0. I see sapects of Hung Gar in there, since Pan Nam studied it for many years prior to wing chun.

To me, Yip Man and/or his teachers stripped a lot out of the art in order to specialize it. Pan Nam's system has other components in it. Pan Nam, from my perspective, taught a lifetime collection of martial arts. I think he freely added to his wing chun while maintaining the flavor.

Pan Nam was not a stickler for the center line, if we look at the form. At times the hands go off of it, especially in the opening punches.

I think the dummy is very interesting and has some of the best parts in it. I really like it. It has some finger pokes for point hitting as well as limb destruction techniques that Yip Man did not seem to favor. Yip Man took the center line to an extreme. Pan Nam would "chase the hands" if it was warrented. Though he did follow the centerline theory as well.

There are some other differences as well. No Chi Sau like the Yip Man branch. They simply touched hands and tried to feel for weaknesses. They also had a waist pressing drill which is a bit hard to explain, but I never did it. I saw a little on his sons VCD.

Tom
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[wingchunalex]

i got the pan nam videos. they are very interesting. i feel like the forms are different but they still have all the same "elements" and the same "essence" as the othe wing chun forms i've seen.

the way they applied their techniques were a little more compact and even more close range than i've seen compared to some yip man wing chun. they had some really interesting ways of applying different angles. they also used some techniques to attack the limbs and then go to the body/head.

the dummy form was really cool, it still had the same "essence" of the yip man form i think. i was really disappointed in the video application wise, they showed only two simple applications for the dummy.

the knives were way different. they looked much more hung gar than wing chun.

over all i think you would get a similar result doing pan nam and yip man wing chun for example in the end, i mean it is all wing chun. i hope that was helpful.

[Grinding Hands]

Thanks you guys! You help was great!

[marcoma]

There is some information and pictures of Pan Nam doing the Wooden Dummy form and some other stuff in the book 'Roots and Branches of Wing Tsun' by Leung Ting. I hope you find it helpful.

I tried a combined Yip Man/Pan Nam school while searching for a school I was happy with. I liked the class, the only reason I didn't stay training with them was due to work commitments and problems traveling to the class. It was interesting, I saw use of clawing that I have not seen in other schools of WC.

I see some people have mentioned a VCD of this style, where can I get a copy?

Marco

[KPM]

Go to eBay and search under "wing chun." Lots of Pan Nam VCDs there. I purchased the series of Pan Nam books on eBay out of curiosity. The big thing that struck me was the stance. or should I say what looked like the LACK of a stance. The person demonstrating all the forms appeared to simply be standing in an "everyday" posture with feet roughly shoulder width. No sinking or rooting was apparent. Of course I may get a different impression if I get around to purchasing the VCDs.

Given Pan Nam WCK's history and the choreography of the forms, I get the impression that what we are seeing is primarily Chan Wah Shun's WCK with some Hung Ga elements added and likely some of Pan Nam's own additions. I have seen similar elements in Pan Nam, Austin Goh, and Wai Po-Tang's forms that are not in YMWCK forms, and all three have a CWS lineage influence. Anyone else care to comment?

Keith

[tparkerkfo]

A couple notes.

The VCD's are not that similar to what I was taught. There seems to be a different flavor to them and the techniques are very different from what I was exposed to. I did not get heavily into the techniques, just a little. But they were not like those.

The knife form did indeed look more Hung Garish. I am not to sure which version it is.

Pan Nam had an intersting life living in the home of wing chun and hung gar. Pan Nam's early life was dedicated to Shaolin/Hung Gar and no doubt influenced what he did in his wing chun to some degree. Later he learned a couple different versions of wing chun. One of which comes from one of Yip Man's sidai. So he does have some Chan Wah Shun in his lineage. However, his lineage is said to come from Dai Fa Min Kam through a guy called Lok. We don't know his full name. Lok's cousin taught one of Pan Nam's sifus and thus him. This is from memory so it might be a little off. To be honest, I do not now if Pan Nam really modified his style or if it is fully intact. I can see some hung influence so I assume it was a mix. But I think I recall Dai Fa Min Kam being linked to other arts like Weng Chun that also have some Hung like influence. Rene might be able to shed more light on the topic.

Any way, Pan Nam said there were numerous styles that made up wing chun. One of which is said to be eagle claw I think. Hense Pan Nam wing chun does indeed have clawing techniqes. Not many, but they are there. The biggest area you see them in is in the Huen saus. At the end of each one, you close the fist from the pinky to the index finger, one by one.

Pan Nam style may look like it doesn't have a horse or root. But that is incorrect. He is very rooted. The stance is just different. The body always has to be rooted in just about any martial art. Pan Nam has different theories on this.

Just some thoughts
Tom
________
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[yuanfen]

Tom sez-
The body always has to be rooted in just about any martial art.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom-
I dont know about "always".
Some northern styles have a floating root.
But whther someone is rooted or not is not always self evident.
An as far as rooting in the dark- the aussies have an advantage:-
a congruence of language and activity.

[reneritchie]

Rene might be able to shed more light on the topic.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/archives/biographies/masters/pannam.html

He does primarily Chan Yiu-Min (Yip Man's sihing) style WCK with some village Hung and Hei Gung integrated in, as well as South-style double knives. He was d@mn impressive with the pole, even in his 80s, moving a 12' version around powerfully and precisely even at that age.

[Grinding Hands]

You guys are saying that Pan Nam has a mostly Hung influenced style(claws,stance,weapons etc...)
Is the chi kung from hung ga?
Is there influence of dai fa min kam in the style?
If there is where do you see it? Does Chi sim weng chun have anything in common with Pan Nam?
:) Thanks!

[morgan]

Hello.

I am learning Pan Nam Wing Chun. I don't have much experience with other systems so I can't really give you a comparison. But..

The things that are mainly stressed are solid stance, toes not pointed in. Power coming from a relaxed waist, legs rooted. Good breathing, and most important sinking shoulders and elbows. Making contact with the fingers and grabbing is used to control and sense the opponents actions.

There are three empty hand sets, and pole set (not really used for fighting, but for developing waist power), and the knives which come from Hong Kuen. There is an additional breathing set which is supposed to complement Wing Chun, but is not actually part of the system.

Hope this helps some.

[tparkerkfo]

Hello Grinding hands,
No I am not quite saying that Pan Nam is mostly Hung influenced. What I am saying is that he learned it for many years prior to Wing Chun. His wing chun IS different than many others. I personally can see "SOME" things that are inline with Hung Gar. However, I can not say that that is what it is. It doesn't have a Hung Flavor at all, just some moves are similar to hung gar.

If you read what I wrote above, it does come from Dai Fa Min Kam, at least that is what Pan Nam said. It comes through a guy named Lok. I am not sure how close to Jee Shim it is, but I would think it is not that close or I suspect others would be telling us it was. But I don't think it excludes Gee Shim though. The stance work may be close since they both are 50/50.

Pan Nam was in a position to learn from many, many people. He seemed always to be around and knew most of the people in Futsan from the stories I heard. I am not sure how open they were at sharing, but I get the impression that Pan Nam new a lot of different wing chun. I think his style is not a pure art that was taught to him by a single teacher, but a mix of every thing he knew. The forms may or may not be pure. It is hard to say.

Perhaps Morgan can help answer some more questions. Would you mind sharing who your learning with?

Tom
________
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[Grinding Hands]

Can I ask you guys how the stepping patern looks like.

I have been reading whatever i can on Dai fa min kam. I know that there are a couple of wing chun styles that acknowlege him as their ancestor.

Is there any caracteristics that distinguishes a Dai fa min kam style from other wing chun branches?

Thank you TParker,Rene,Morgan and everyone else!:)

[tparkerkfo]

Hi,

I am not sure what you mean by the stepping pattern? The foorwork in the forms is almost identical to Yip Man wing chun. Chum Kiu has an unusual stepping motion, but I think I saw something similar in another branch, either GuLoo or TWC. I can't remember. The Dummy form has a hooking technique at the end of the form as well. But for the most part it is identical except that the horse is higher with the knees out. THis in itself creates a differnce in internal structure, but if your asking pattern, it is the same from my perspective. Perhaps someone with more background would disagree.

Hope that helps. If not, can you clarify?

As far as Dai Fa Min Kam, I am not sure what he knew and what the people that come from his lineage do. I thought I read somewhere that he had a "Weng Chun" back ground. As such, they may have the wider stances. But as I said before, Pan Nam wing chun is very similar in many respects to Yip Man wing chun. I think Rene is correct when he pointed that out his teachings come from Chiu Chow (rather than Chan Yiu-Min, if I remember correctly). But there are differences and I am not sure what accounts for them.

Pan Nam learned from Chu Chow first and was considered his teacher. But much of his information came from Lai Hip Chi. Both come from Chan Wah Shan lineage like Yip Man. So we should not besuprised to see similarities. However, Lai Hip Chi ran into a guy wh apparently knew a different version of wing chun that is claimed to come from Dai Fa Min Kam.THe interesting thing to note is their version of wing chun differs from other wing chun groups and they claim Tan Sau Ng as the source. In any case, Pan Nam learned from these people as well as picked up other stuff. It is hard to say what is Dai Fa Min Kam, what was Wing Chun from Chan Wah Shan, and what was merged from his other teachings is hard to say. I think we need to see this Lok guy that Lai Hip Chi learned from.

Tom
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[KPM]

Hi Tom!

You wrote:
Pan Nam learned from Chu Chow first and was considered his teacher. But much of his information came from Lai Hip Chi. Both come from Chan Wah Shan lineage like Yip Man. So we should not besuprised to see similarities. However, Lai Hip Chi ran into a guy wh apparently knew a different version of wing chun that is claimed to come from Dai Fa Min Kam.THe interesting thing to note is their version of wing chun differs from other wing chun groups and they claim Tan Sau Ng as the source. In any case, Pan Nam learned from these people as well as picked up other stuff. It is hard to say what is Dai Fa Min Kam, what was Wing Chun from Chan Wah Shan, and what was merged from his other teachings is hard to say. I think we need to see this Lok guy that Lai Hip Chi learned from.

---I have always been a bit skeptical about the Dai Fa Min Kam portion of the Pan Nam Family tree. One of the early magazine articles stated that Pan Nam had actually studied directly with Kam when Kam was very old and he was very young! This is of course physically impossible, since Kam lived in the Red Boat era. So I have always kind of doubted this "Lok's nephew" idea. How could they have studied with "Lok's nephew" and not even know his name? I don't know much about the Chan Wah Shun method, but the impression I get is that Pan Nam's WCK is essentially CWSWCK with some Hung Ga elements added in.

Keith

[reneritchie]

Pan Nam had his WCK hands opened by Cheung Bo, but Cheung was a very rough teacher, apparently, and so Pan chose to continue with Jiu Chao, who was a student of Chan Yiu-Min, and the uncle and teacher of Jiu Wan (who later studied with Yip Man). Pan then met Lai Hip-Chi, who learned from Chan Wah-Shun and, after Chan had his stroke, from Lui Yiu-Chai (who later moved to Vietnam).

We don't know much about Dai Fa Min Kam's full career teachings, other than Fung Siu-Ching who learned while Kam was still on the boats, prior to the Qing purge when Wong Wah-Bo & Leung Yee-Tai taught Leung Jan and Wong and Kam taught Fok Bo-Chuen. Wong Wah-Bo apparently knew both Weng Chun and Wing Chun, and different stories mentioned Leung and Kam knowing both as well.

If Lai Hip-Chi's records are accurate, however, Kam retired to the Lok family village in Jinjue, where he taught Lok Lan-Goon and others. So, its possible if someone ever gets to that village, they can check it out and see what its like. Perhaps, like the Cho, the Lok had family village boxing as well.

Thusfar, however, there doesn't seem to be anything in Pan Nam's sets that can't be explained by his Hung Kuen and Hei Gung background, though perhaps if we ever see Kam's later teachings in Jinjue, we will see its signatures in Pan's as well.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Guys,

Great info. Keith, it is indeed hard to judge what is Pan Nam's and what, if any, came from Dai Fa Min Kam. But becareful of the sources your refering to. I think Micheal Nedderman had the first artical on Pan Nam. I could be wrong. But in any case, I don't think he is/was in a position to be an autority on Pan Nam wing chun. Many mistakes have been made in regards to Pan Nam wing chun, but that doesn't mean that they were acurate and represented Pan Nam. I have never heard that there was a direct connection to Dai Fa Min Kam. It was obviously an error of sorts. This doesn't take away the validity, though there are other questions.

I see some hung influence, but I am not sure that it is as heavily influenced as some suggest. It is hard to say because we don't really know exactly what Pan Nam was exposed to. One of the VCD shows some hung gar which is remarkably close to what I do in many respects. But I don't think that accounts for the differences in his wing chun from other Chan Wah Shun. But there could be other stuff as well. Their Hung Gar uses a different stance and is much more powerful. His wing chun doesn't look like a simple marriage, though perhaps some found its way in.

Perhaps more info will come out in the next few years as people visit China more in the future. It would be great to check out that village as well as check out any other Lai Hip Chi lines and compare the differences.

Tom
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[morgan]

Hiy guys,

Sometimes it takes me a while to reply. My Wing Chun Sifu is Pan Siu Cho. I don't know much about the ancestry at this point (my fault, my chinese is not very good), but a few months ago I asked him who Pan Nam's WC teachers were. He told me Jiu Chao and Lai Hip Chi.

I'm also not really sure what you meant about stepping patterns either. I think tparker did a good job of explaining.

[Grinding Hands]

Morgan do you study in Foshan? Wow! You are very lucky to study from master Pan siu cho.
In sifu Eddie Chong's site it talks about how the footwork differs from the yip man branch. I been in 3 different schools of wing chun and they were all 100/0 weight distribution. So anybody with a slight difference from me intrigues me greatly. I have been interested in Pan Nam for while. I have been contemplating studying it recently. I guess I started this post to juice myself up to finally make my decision. Im gonna have to flip a coin.

You guys are cool cats in my book. Thanks!!!!

[Grinding Hands]

Morgan do you study in Foshan? Wow! You are very lucky to study from master Pan siu cho.
In sifu Eddie Chong's site it talks about how the footwork differs from the yip man branch. I been in 3 different schools of wing chun and they were all 100/0 weight distribution. So anybody with a slight difference from me intrigues me greatly. I have been interested in Pan Nam for while. I have been contemplating studying it recently. I guess I started this post to juice myself up to finally make my decision. Im gonna have to flip a coin.

You guys are cool cats in my book. Thanks!!!!

[KPM]

Hi Tom!

You wrote:
Perhaps more info will come out in the next few years as people visit China more in the future. It would be great to check out that village as well as check out any other Lai Hip Chi lines and compare the differences.

---Yes, I agree. Really, I would just like to get a good idea of what the Chan Wah Shun line looks/looked like. I would love to have a solid idea of what Ng Chung So, Chan Yiu Min (though I hear he changed things) or Lai Hip Chi's methods consist of. I am very curious about two things:

1. What did Leung Jan teach prior to retiring to Ko Loo and reorganizing his WCK?

2. What were the changes that Yip Man made to the CWSWCK that he learned?

---In the back of mind I have a "reconstruction project" taking form. I would love to be able to attempt to "reconstruct" something of what Wong Wah Bo may have taught by looking at what Leung Jan taught in Ko Loo village and what Fok Bo Chuen taught to Yuen Kay Shan. Having a better idea of what Leung Jan may have taught to Chan Wah Shun would be another valuable piece of that puzzle.

Keith

[tparkerkfo]

Hello,

Morgan, That would be Pan Nam's sons? Lucky you. It seems they have a different flavor than Pan Nam though. Not sure to what degree. Maybe if you have a chance you can ask about the art itself. How did it evolve. Did Pan Nam create the forms and put the methods together based on his teachings, or did it come whole from one or the other teacher. This would be an excellent question if you get the opertunity.

Grinding Hands, You have the option to learn Pan Nam? Are you in Sacramento or is there another person teaching Pan Nam system. My experience was with Eddie Chong. I don't mean to disrespect or anything, but I wouldn't say there is anything special about Pan Nam wing chun. It is easy to get excited because it is different. It is good, but I don't think it is any better. Check it out and see if it is for you. I would like to learn more of it myself. As for the stances, yes they are indeed different. The horse does not have the knees in but rather they are outwards almost like hung gar, except much higher.

Kieth, It would be interesting to see what else is out there. I am not sure there would be much value other than curiosity and historical reasons to retrace the steps or find out what WWB taught. By that I mean I doubt his wing chun was any better. I don't think Yip Man really changed all that much. Some cheoreography and he seemed to streamline much of it to make it more upright and less twisty, if Yuen Kay San is compared. I think we can compare YKS wing chun and Yip Man and get a good sense. I have the roots of wing chun book as well, and it just seems that others have also gone of in their own direction. So even if we find these other arts, it is hard to say that they didn't change things. But if you lkook at the core of Pan Nam and YK I think you see the core of Yip Man style. Also, I think the guy on page 280 of Leung Ting's Roots Book looks very close to Yip Man from the Leung Sheung lineage. He is from Ng Chung So style. I would be very interested in looking at his wing chun. His name is Fok Chiu.

Tom

[Grinding Hands]

Tparker I have family in Sacramento and San Fran. Im looking for a reason to get out of chicago. I ordered the Pan Nam tapes by Chong sifu. They're Okey, I was hoping for a little more. I don't think the forms give the style justice. But Alot of neat things like limb destructions. Similar to the silat/kuntao i have studied. Alot of nerve strikes I wouldnt normaly see in other wing chun. The class showed alot of short power which was really interesting kinda like hakka styles. I didnt really see that same power in the forms which bugged me. Im not saying it should. I have beeen practicing the forms Im now on the second form.

Not to stir up any trouble with Brow fan's but did you guys ever read this.




Pam Nam Wing Chun Kung Fu Vs Bak Mei Kung Fu

Time: Last year
Place: Fo Shan City, China
<How did it happen?>
Lung Ying & Bak Mei Kung Fu Master Mai Yu Qiang's younger son, Zhong Luo from USA. On his vacation to China and he went to chanllege Pam Nam Wing Chun people at the Ching-Wu hall.
<Why?>
Zhong Luo, a young and stupid fellow, he wanted to make a name for himself and at first he went around and bad-mouthing about Pam Nam Wing Chun.
<Result?>
Zhong Luo's Bak Mei skill was a *JOKE* comparing to Pam Nam's people and Luo made an initial attack to Pam Nam fighter at Ching-Wu school, in less than 5 seconds, Luo was being knocked out by PMWC fighter.
<Then?>
Luo's father moved in, he was being put in coma for ten days by a single strike by PM people.
Luo's American wife (ten years kung fu experience) picked up an IRON Chair chasing after PM people, according to many people were there, PM people didn't want to fight with a woman at all, but she was trying to kill PM people with the iron chair, so that guy was being force to strike back, she was also put in coma, After staying at intense care room for a week, now she has a big scar on her face.
<After?>
After the fight was over, they all went to police station till 6 am the next day. Soon after this event was over, Luo's father got kicked out by the Fo Shan Ching-Wu Kung Fu association. Zhong Luo and his wife went back to America and go on with their life.
<Now> Once again Wing Chun Kung Fu will continue to shine on the land of the yellow dragon.

Anyways Peace out!

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Grinding Hands
Tparker I have family in Sacramento and San Fran.

If you can study directly from Eddie Chong, you'd be all right, but there is other Wing Chun in Sacramento and lots more throughout California, especially the Bay Area, technically, of which Sacramento is a part.


Not to stir up any trouble with Brow fan's but did you guys ever read this.

The incident does not reflect well on any parties.
I wouldn't use it to help decide to study a martial art.

[Grinding Hands]

I just saw this recently when i was looking for information on pan nam. It didnt influence me at all.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Grinding Hands
I just saw this recently when i was looking for information on pan nam. It didnt influence me at all.
Chong's Wing Chun and Bak Mei pages
http://www.wingchunbakmei.com/tech1.htm

You could do far worse than studying from Eddie, but I'd go to his teacher, Ken Chung in the South Bay. Eddie has good hands, but he hasn't studied under Ken for some time so he will lack Ken's refinement.

Regards,

[Grinding Hands]

Sifus im checking out this summer at the San Fran.

-Chris Chan
-Ken Chung
-Garret Gee
-Eddie Chong(Sacramento)
-Students of Chu Gar
-Yau Kung mun
-Yi chuan
-Dragon

How Far is Hercules from San francisco and Sacramento?

[Grinding Hands]

No specific order!

[Train]

Grendal said: (You could do far worse than studying from Eddie, but I'd go to his teacher, Ken Chung in the South Bay. Eddie has good hands, but he hasn't studied under Ken for some time so he will lack Ken's refinement.)

What the Heck are you trying to say??? Have you ever been to the school in Sancramento?? To me, that is a very disrespecting thing to say about Chong Sifu. He is a very very respected sifu in california. Have you ever been to his school?? have to touched hands with any of his students?? no?? well then please watch what you say ok. Think before you say things......Sometimes your comments will huant you......

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Train
Grendal said: (You could do far worse than studying from Eddie, but I'd go to his teacher, Ken Chung in the South Bay. Eddie has good hands, but he hasn't studied under Ken for some time so he will lack Ken's refinement.)

What the Heck are you trying to say??? Have you ever been to the school in Sancramento??

I have never been to Eddie's school in Sacramento. I met Eddie at Ken's long ago.


To me, that is a very disrespecting thing to say about Chong Sifu. He is a very very respected sifu in california.

I was not disrespectful. You've confused respect with worship.


Have you ever been to his school?? have to touched hands with any of his students?? no?? well then please watch what you say ok. Think before you say things......Sometimes comments will huant you......
I have touched hands with his students. My opinion is that Eddie's students' hands are very different from Ken's students hands.

You make too many assumptions. You're too new to Wing Chun to be so close-minded. My comments were meant to help a newbie make an important choice and in them, I complimented Eddie. There is no shame in Eddie not yet being his teacher's Wing Chun equal.

Regards,

[Buddha_Fist]

"You could do far worse than studying from Eddie, but I'd go to his teacher, Ken Chung in the South Bay. Eddie has good hands, but he hasn't studied under Ken for some time so he will lack Ken's refinement."

:mad:

Grendel: You're also doing assumptions about Eddie Chong Sifu's hands. Who says he hasn't refined his skill throughout all the years in which you haven't seen him? Please refrain from comparing one to the other.

Regards


BF

:)

[morgan]

Pam Nam Wing Chun Kung Fu Vs Bak Mei Kung Fu

Time: Last year
Place: Fo Shan City, China
<How did it happen?>
Lung Ying & Bak Mei Kung Fu Master Mai Yu Qiang's younger son, Zhong Luo from USA. On his vacation to China and he went to chanllege Pam Nam Wing Chun people at the Ching-Wu hall.
<Why?>
Zhong Luo, a young and stupid fellow, he wanted to make a name for himself and at first he went around and bad-mouthing about Pam Nam Wing Chun.
<Result?>
Zhong Luo's Bak Mei skill was a *JOKE* comparing to Pam Nam's people and Luo made an initial attack to Pam Nam fighter at Ching-Wu school, in less than 5 seconds, Luo was being knocked out by PMWC fighter.
<Then?>
Luo's father moved in, he was being put in coma for ten days by a single strike by PM people.
Luo's American wife (ten years kung fu experience) picked up an IRON Chair chasing after PM people, according to many people were there, PM people didn't want to fight with a woman at all, but she was trying to kill PM people with the iron chair, so that guy was being force to strike back, she was also put in coma, After staying at intense care room for a week, now she has a big scar on her face.
<After?>
After the fight was over, they all went to police station till 6 am the next day. Soon after this event was over, Luo's father got kicked out by the Fo Shan Ching-Wu Kung Fu association. Zhong Luo and his wife went back to America and go on with their life.
<Now> Once again Wing Chun Kung Fu will continue to shine on the land of the yellow dragon.

Anyways Peace out! [/B]

I heard a similar story second hand from a friend who is studying Choy Lay fut at Foshan Hong Sing. He was taking care of some business at the police station. One of the officers told him a about a guy and his girlfriend who got into a brawl with the instructor and some members of a kung fu school. He said the woman ended up losing some teeth and abroken rib.

The story you quoted sounds exagerated, I bet it's the same incedent the officer was describing. Too funny.

[tparkerkfo]

Train and BF,

Grendel's comments are not disrespectful. In fact, I kind of take it as a complement. I have studied with both Ken and Eddie. Eddie was my Sigung and I have had the excellent opertunity to work with him. I still see him on occasion as my hung gar class is hosted in his school. His hands are better than most I have met in Wing Chun. If some one compares a Ferrari F 40 to a porche, one may say one is more refined than the other. But it doesn't mean the other is a slouch. Ken is, in my mind, one of the highest people in wing chun. Ken taught Eddie. I don't think it is a far cry to say that Ken probably has a deeper level of knowledge and skill than Eddie, since a large part of his wing chun comes through him. Of course Eddie has moved on as well and has distinguished himself in the Pan Nam system. I don't think the intent is to turn this thread into a ****ing contest between the two.

As far as Ken, I think even Eddie would agree that Ken is way ahead of most people. Although Eddie does have good hands, Ken has refined much of his wing chun since Eddie studied with him. Ken went back to China and relearned from Leung Shueng. So there is a lot more that Ken learned after Eddie went his way.

Grendel,
Wing CHun in Sac is pretty limited. That is why I am not training currently. THere is Eddie, probably the best school here. Then there is a school or two that split from him. Micheal Neaderman (sp?). There is a guy that makes a living teaching Kenpo but teacher wing chun on the side. He is 3 or 4 generation from TST. His prices are WAY to high for me. Not sure about his skills, but he didn't impress me enough to pay his fees. I have found that there is one or two TWC people here as well. That is about it that I know of. Do you have any other leds? I would love one?

Grinding Hands,
If you move to Sac, I am in the area and love to work with others. Eddie is probably the best in the area and I would recommend him if Sac is the place. In the greater Bay Area, I would highly reccomend Ken Chung or Ben Der. Of course, don't take my word for it. Check out these people and see who gives you the best info. I don't think you will be disapointed with Ken.

I am confused about your comments about Pan Nam. Do you study it or do you just by the tapes? It sounds like you have seen it? The tapes are not meant to teach you Pan Nam Wing Chun. They just expose it. You can not learn it from tape. The only tape that really shows off the system is the Chi Sau tape. But that is just kind of a mix of stuff.

That story may or may not be true about the Bak Mei guy. He is actually in SF and I know ome people that know him. He is actually pretty good and not a guy you want to mess with. I don't know if the event actually happen, or if it happened how it has been discribed. The story has been told differently by different people, but it tends to have the same pieces. I don't think one can make any real judgements based on the story as there may be a lot more to it than what the story relates.

Tom
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[Grinding Hands]

He threw a seminar here in chicago way back to promote pan nam.

[Grinding Hands]

I dont know if its true but His father moved here to teach at his school. I dont want to get in trouble so thats all. I like Bak mei lung ying.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Grinding hands,

Well, if you come to Cali you can study them. LOL. Are there any Dragon, wing chun, or bak mei schools in Chicago?

Dragon is very hard to find. I am not aware of ANY practiconers other than Luo Zhan in SF. I am sure there are more, but they keep a low profile and teach only closed door. Bak Mei is also hard to find. Only a couple people in the US.

In Sacramento, Eddie teaches Bak Mei and Wing Chun. If your interested in these two arts, that is probably the best opertunity. If your interested in Wing Chun only, I would recommend Ken. I am not aware of any other Bak Mei or Leung Ying in the area.

I also have it on pretty good authority that the Futsan thing did happen as was suggested. I am not sure of the details, but it was indeed Pan Nam lineage that fought with Luo in Fatsan. WIng Chun was victorious! I have one other source that knows the wife of Luo, the Dragon teacher. I'll ask if she heard anything about it. Actually, I am supprised I have not heard more about it.

Tom
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[Train]

Hi Tom,

I think Grendal's comment was very insulting. Grendal said :You could do far worse than studying from Eddie, but I'd go to his teacher, Ken Chung in the South Bay. This is just bad wording. What I understand after reading that comment was, Sifu Chong's WC is just mediocre and if you can't make it to Sifu Ken Chung's school, I guess you have to deal with Sifu Eddie Chong's school. I'm not saying that Eddie Chong is better or his skills are equal to Ken Chung or anything close to this. But who gives the right to Grendal to make that kind of comment?? Hey Tom?? what if I made the same comment about you and your Sifu? But what gives me the right to say that. That's just not right.

Grendal said: You make too many assumptions. You're too new to Wing Chun to be so close-minded. My comments were meant to help a newbie make an important choice and in them, I complimented Eddie. There is no shame in Eddie not yet being his teacher's Wing Chun equal.

How do you know I'm am new a to WC?? Closes minded?? LOL :) I hope someone at Eddie's School reads this. I wonder what their response would be. Hmmmm..... ohhh wells

[Grinding Hands]

There is bak mei but you have to be a northern guest. My classmate in highschool one of 2 asians in my school(i was the other) his father taught. I almost became a student but we had a fight over an asian girl. He liked her, she liked me, I thought she was a butter face. It sucks because I didnt know how cool BM was at the time. Actually Im glad i didnt know. Its 5' in the morning and I just got home. Im on a forum. Im officialy a geek! yes!

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Train,

I am not sure if you read any of my posts. From my perspective, you have read much into Grendal's post that was not said.

Just to reitereate, I have ties to both Eddie Chong and Ken Chung. Eddie is/was my sigung. When my teacher moved, I trained with Ken Chung for a short time and still try to visit occasionally. I see Eddie a couple times a week as my Hung Gar class is at his school. I am on very friendly terms with him, though I don't study with him. So, although I am not really a student of his, he is still my sigung.

Grendal did not say that Eddie was mediocre nor did he imply anything. He said you could do worse than to study with Eddie. That does not imply anything about his skills, unless your looking hard into that comment. I won't speak about Grendal's experience as he can do that himself, but have you thought that maybe he just might have some experience with Ken and or Eddie? You clearly don't. but he may. His comments sound like he just may. Perhaps you could ask why he made those comments and what he meant by them.

I myself have dealt with people that have serious issues with Eddie Chong as well as with Ken Chung. I have heard slanderous things about both of them. I am not overly sensitive but I do notice and will pipe up when it is warrented and matters. I personally do not feel Grendal said anything negative. Sure the phrasing perhaps was not the best, but I don't think the intent was at all to slander Eddie. If your in the Bay Area proper, I would recommend Ken Chung. If your in Sacramento, I recommend Eddie Chong.

Tom
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