I got into a fight and forgot all my training!!!

[rogue]

No it didn't really happen to me, but I see this posted all too often by guys with 5, 10, even 20 years of training. They get into a fight and the training goes out the window because of anger, fear, pain or whatever. I've always thought the idea behind training was that it would come online almost automatically, and was the thing you fell back on when things got rough.

So what's the deal, were these guys ever properly trained to begin with?

I have my ideas of what makes training really stick; adequate mental and physical stress, adequate sparring with at least moderate contact, and drills that are dynamic and not dependent on both parties being overly cooperative (I'm starting to doubt the usefullness of flow drills).

IMO, the easiest places to find that train in this way are usually sport oriented. While there are traditional schools that still train this way they are harder to find.

Flame on...

[Archangel]

It happened to me as well; the first time I sparred in boxing and the first time I wrestled in a tournament. It strange really what an adrenaline dump can do to a fighter. Thank god it happened during training and not a real fight.

[SevenStar]

typically:

lack of contact sparring + a real confrontation or a ring fight + adrenaline rush = tunnel vision and freezing.

IME, of course.

[David Jamieson]

c'mon rogue, you can admit it was you :D

forgetter!

cheers

[Kungfu boy]

I got into a fight at a gas station with a guy heckling for money. It was a simple jb-cross-uppercut(missed with the uppercut)-cross. 3 out of 4 hits made contact. But I forgot to kick the guy, and I've got a wicked left thai round kick too.

I'm so ashamed.

[dezhen2001]

interesting thread :)

i think it depends on a lot of other factors - not just training. i mean, were you surprised? were you jumped from behind? all those kinda things. i know when i got mugged from behind i was in a really bad foot position and turned my body without moving my feet so i was off balance completely (heard a noise so turned to see what it was). I froze for a split second as it dawned on me what was happening and by then i had been pulled to the ground. Then thankfully i was able to protect myself... but i remember thinking "wow - someone is ACTUALLY mugging me!" :D lesson learned though.

dawood

[Cashier Graham]

depends on fighting spirit, you can train everyday but you might as well be jogging everyday unless you train your fighting spirit enough to not go nuts when the adrenaline kicks in or to freeze like a rabbit in the headlights. It's not being like calm like a hindu cow, but being focused and treating the fight as a training session after all if you lose sticking to technique and form then either their's something wrong with it or you haven't trained long/hard enough. And if you do lose the fight don't lose the lesson.

[Black Jack]

I think fighting spirit is key.

So is keeping your core tactics K.I.S.S. and not training with "pillar assualts" as best you can help it.

[neit]

yep, k.i.s.s. is my policy. i am weary of anything overly complicated since i know i could not pull it off. i'd rather just know my basics, and how to apply them.

[DragonzRage]

Its all about practical techniques and functional training...its as simple as that. There's no other secret behind it other than dedication. And if you do not have functional training and practical technique, then unfortunately you will never become too effective even if you do put in a lot of dedication. I've been doing martial arts since i was a kid. I trained kung fu seriously throughout my adolescence and high school years. I was pretty good in my club, but a lot of the skills I used in that setting simply never translated to a less controlled environment. In the real scraps I got into I wasn't able to use any amount of technique worth speaking of. The tournaments weren't all that different. It was just a bunch of knuckleheads jumping around and throwing sloppy foam covered fists at each other in some pathetic mockery of kickboxing. Sparring hard with people outside the kung fu club yielded similar results. And I was no slouch either. I worked hard at training and was being groomed to become a si-hing. At the beginning of college I started doing JKD. It was a good experience because it gave me exposure to a variety of different methods. I got my first taste of grappling and I ate it up. JKD itself had some practical aspects that traditional kung fu lacked, but it felt far from being completely functional (meaning that when I sparred hard a lot of it still went out the window). There was things I didn't like about the JKD experience so I ditched it quick and went on to focus solely on Muay Thai. And this is just my opinion, but I believe that a combination of boxing and Muay Thai is the most effective stand up striking skill one can have. Everything in this method of training will come out effectively whether you're in a real fight, in competition, or just sparring hard. I'm a blue in jiu jitsu and studied shooto style grappling as well. I have been able to aply all my grappling training in all situations as well.

I don't want this to come off as sounding like a cliche "muay thai and bjj is the best" type thing. But i've been heavily involved in kung fu, JKD, Muay Thai, and grappling. And the fact of the matter is that Muay Thai and grappling are the only styles I've experienced that have been 100% effective in real application for me. If you don't spar hard and have never fought, then you cannot assume that you have fighting skills. The techniques you use must be adaptable to a real situation as well. In a real fight an opponent isn't going to throw nice straight line punches at half force. He's going to throw wild haymakers to take your head off. And you're not gonna be able to defend all his attacks with wide forearm blocks. If he doesn't knock your head off he's gonna crash into you, grab you, and swing you around like a brute. He's not going to stand in front of you and play hand bridging. You also have to know how to move well. You're going to want to have live, mobile footwork...shifting around in horse stances and arrow stances is cumbersome and unnatural.

There's no secret behind it. It all goes back to practical techniques and functional training. That's what makes some styles work better than others.

[rogue]

I agree with the KISS as far as techniques. My Isshinryu sensei said that for most fights even these (http://isshinryu.union.rpi.edu/basics.html)are more than enough tecniques to win. And these are just the beginner stuff.


There's no secret behind it. It all goes back to practical techniques and functional training. That's what makes some styles work better than others. I think you're on target but it goes beyond style DR. Some of the things I notice about people that do seem to have their techniques hardwired is their training has an adequate mental component. If someone learns everything about boxing and muay thai against the pads and bag but never spars hard enough will be missing that mental stress(fear, pain, anger from being hit, failure/humiliation from losing) that will be needed to handle a real world situation. The old traditional schools were very harsh in their training and treatment of students and that was how some of the mental stress was achieved.

[fa_jing]

I think you need to be thrown into that ocean a few times before you learn to swim, you need to be pushed into a level of sparring that you might not necessarily want to go. Not all the time, but some of the time, and of course actively competing in full contact should help. Hopefully you can adjust in your sparring, from intensity levels of 1 to 10, and maintain flow.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Cashier Graham
depends on fighting spirit, you can train everyday but you might as well be jogging everyday unless you train your fighting spirit enough to not go nuts when the adrenaline kicks in or to freeze like a rabbit in the headlights. It's not being like calm like a hindu cow, but being focused and treating the fight as a training session after all if you lose sticking to technique and form then either their's something wrong with it or you haven't trained long/hard enough. And if you do lose the fight don't lose the lesson.

I agree with this.

Also would like to add that the fighting spirit is slightly different for competitions and for real life scenarios.

Also I think a lot of people are deluding themselves as to their actual fighting ability and tend to overrate themselves.

IMO, you WILL NOT know how you will react in ANY situation untill you have been in it.
Even the best training and techniques cannot prepare you completely for all the little factors that go into a real-life situation.

I also don't belief that you would react the same twice in an identical situation.

Cheers.

[rogue]

IMO, you WILL NOT know how you will react in ANY situation untill you have been in it. Even the best training and techniques cannot prepare you completely for all the little factors that go into a real-life situation. Right, and this is where you fall back onto your training. Now you can run scenerios in your mind and "what if", many times that and your training can save your bacon(sorry Dawood :) ).

Something that you may need to train no matter how good your basics are is how well do they hold up under different environments. One of my favorite places to practice is a deserted farm by my house. Many things that are highly effective in the ring and dojo fall apart upon that old farms lumpy ground.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by SevenStar
typically:

lack of contact sparring + a real confrontation or a ring fight + adrenaline rush = tunnel vision and freezing.

IME, of course.

Yes, Lack of contact training is the first domino.

What exactly is "forgetting" your training? Does your punch come out retarded or something. You forget how to block a hit?

[straight blast]

He's going to throw wild haymakers to take your head off.

:D I love it when they do that :D

Often you spend so long training to fight the technical genius uber-fighter that you tend to forget that the average fight on the street isn't going to be careful, cat-like stalking followed by blurring attack and counterattack.

Generally it is some slobbering drunk wanker who is trying to do the haymaker thing. I can smack around a couple of my MA buddies just by simply not fighting with any skill i.e. crude unorthodox attacks.

That said some of the others can whip me black and blue if I try that! :D

Whatever works

[straight blast]

Woohoo! The censor thing doesn't know "WANKER".

God bless Australia and our colloquialisms ;)

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by straight blast
Woohoo! The censor thing doesn't know "WANKER".

God bless Australia and our colloquialisms ;)

And no need to tell the uninformed what it means. ;)

They even had to explain some terms in "Austin Powers" for the US audiences.

:D :D

[rogue]

What exactly is "forgetting" your training? Does your punch come out retarded or something. You forget how to block a hit? It's when you fight as if you've never trained. I don't mean the techniques not being as clean as they are in the dojo, but technique, positioning and whatever else you've spent hours practicing to supposedly make you a better fighter don't even show up to the fight. You're fighting like the average Joe, making the same mistakes.



Let's try putz, shmuck, yutz.

[ArrowFists]

Freezing is a common occurance in "real" situations. The best simulation for a real fight is competiton, because the same adrenaline dump takes place in the ring, that does on the street. Ever see football players before a big championship game? Most of them are puking or crapping on themselves because they're so nervous. And when its gametime, they make stupid mistakes like interceptions, or missing easy passes. All that training goes out the window and it comes down to natural talent. After the first 5-10 minutes are over, you'll start to see the nerves calm down, and the training resurface, but how many fights last as long as the first quarter of a football game?

I agree with Dragonz that (at least in my experience) boxing/kickboxing is the best methods of stand-up fighting out there, and Judo/Bjj is the best method of grappling. Real fights don't look like the movies, and when thugs throwdown, they don't do sloppy karate/kung fu, they do sloppy boxing and wrestling, two things that boxing/kickboxing, and Judo/bjj exponents train against everytime they enter the gym.

Just to toss this in the fire, I once saw a kid in kung fu do some amazing drunken form. However when it came time for this kid to spar, he wasn't doing drunken style, he was doing something that resembled American kickboxing (except his hands were down to his waist). No worries, the Karate guy he was going against did the exact same thing. Put them up against a skilled kick/boxer and they're toast, guarenteed.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by rogue
It's when you fight as if you've never trained. I don't mean the techniques not being as clean as they are in the dojo, but technique, positioning and whatever else you've spent hours practicing to supposedly make you a better fighter don't even show up to the fight. You're fighting like the average Joe, making the same mistakes.


It was a rhetorical question. We all know what it means.
Somehow it seems to be the opinion that it is the absolute condition. It is not. It is the condition of those that don't fight with contact at their schools. Thats it. Period.

[Shaolin-Do]

In all honesty, I really really hate to fight, but the couple of times I have, I do use what Ive learned training, but its to the extent that my mind just kinda takes over the body... Dont really think to block or hit, my arms just do it on their own. :) Dont mean to dance around, but my feet already arent listening to my brain. honestly, my technique doesnt get sloppy. I just dont think before I move. (at least not slow enough for me to realize...) :)

[Golden Arms]

You probably have to train to fight for it to stick in that kind of situation...so I agree with those saying that putting yourself into levels of sparring that are less than comfortable or are even highly intimidating..as that gets you used to the kind of pressure you may be under, and the realities of some types of fighting. K.I.S.S. works...do your basics enough regularly for long enough, and your advanced techniques will eventually become your basics. Then there is not too much you can forget.

[Neurotic]

Originally posted by Golden Arms
...do your basics enough regularly for long enough, and your advanced techniques will eventually become your basics.

I will wholeheartedly agree with this statement.

I've been slowly upping the level of contact in my sparring sessions over the past month or so - and I've noticed in this environment only the most basic of technqiues were coming out.

Slowly, the more comfortable I get with this sort of scenario, the more other movements have started to simply flow into place.

My Sifu has always said - Don't fight differently to the way you train.

This is true both of the style analogies that have been discussed (i.e. total lack of training being utilised) to the point of - if you don't train WITH some contact, or even some sort of pressure - how do you expect to fight under that circumstance?

That being said - not all of us are in this game for purely self defense reasons, and going home with bruises 3 times a week is not for everyone (hey.. sometimes its not even for me... well.. sometimes)

Just my 2c