Harmless rant about Sifu and styles.

[Laughing Cow]

Hi All.

As I mentioned I recently got a Chen Small Frame Book & Vcd and showed it do my fellow students.

A very interesting discussion ensued about Forms and teachers.

The form in the Book differs in sequence, how moves are executed and has some moves we don't appear to have.
Also stepping differs.
Interestingly enough NOBODY said the guy was doing it wrong or anything similar.
And some even demoed the variations between the moves as we do them and as they are shown in the book, as well as speculated on the origin of the differences.

One senior student mentioned that he has seen our sifu do a few of those "missing" moves at time.
And also that Sifu's and his Brothers form are executed differently even though the sequence and moves are bassically the same.

So it appears that there are differences even within our small corner of the Chen TJQ scene.

In the end it is my belief that you don't study a style so much as the expression/understanding that the teacher has of a style.

rant over.

[Laughing Cow]

Forgot to mention it looks like my Sifu is at the moment translating his own book into english and it should soon be available.

Can't wait to lay my clammy paws on it.

[Vapour]

May be to do with difference in degree of relaxation. For example, we go for total relaxation of shoulder so when we do some hand move, beginner's hand can't go up that much like senior students or instructors.

My instructor say when he teach beginner, he have to constantly remind himself not to perform form to the full extent of his ability to relax because that will cause beginner to imitate and force their posture to the level in which they no longer can relax.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Vapour
May be to do with difference in degree of relaxation. For example, we go for total relaxation of shoulder so when we do some hand move, beginner's hand can't go up that much like senior students or instructors.


I understand what you are saying, I have seen the advanced versions of some of our moves.

The form in the Book and our forms differs quite a bit.
Example:
We don't practice the handstand/double heel kick, there are 2 other postures in our form instead(both includes kicks).

Also the form in the book recommends putting the foot down toe first, we do heel first.

Interestingly enough both the book's author and my Teacher studied from the same person (my Teacher's aunt).

Cheers.

[dezhen2001]

dont know much about the Chen, but in my neck of the woods (wing chun) there is a lot of diversity, even between those who learned form the same teacher.

its really amazing that such a skill can be passed on and keep the same core while being so adaptable and deep :)

dawood

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
dont know much about the Chen, but in my neck of the woods (wing chun) there is a lot of diversity, even between those who learned form the same teacher.


That's why I feel you need to specifiy whose form you learned.

Chen TJQ is a principle based art and thus is open to different inerpretations and expressions.



its really amazing that such a skill can be passed on and keep the same core while being so adaptable and deep :)


Agreed, that is the beauty of it all.

All those discussions about which form is the original, better or which style came first make me laugh.
As I feel that if you got the core and principles correct it will be in effect be the art/style.

The whole split into different families and styles is a very recent invention and actually came from non-practicioners & other outsiders.

Cheers.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

A useful analogy might be that the form is like our own skeleton.. it is the foundation and generally the same in most folks.. but, the musclature (power) differs between individuals, and.. the flesh/skin (appearance) differs even more-so.. It's all built on the same skeleton (framework) but expressed differently by appearance and ability.. So it is with the form and the varying practicioners.. we all shoot at the same target, few hit the bulls-eye... Certainly, there are those that intend to deviate from the original form, either due to a deeper understanding and insight to a better connection of body, mind spirit (which is appropriate for a "living" art), or due to blind ego (not so appropriate).. In any case we can only test and experience the Art, evaluate and incorporate according to our own best intuitions.. this surely includes honoring the wisdom of past and present Masters, while at the same time not limiting the Art's evolution by future "masters"...

Be well..

[dezhen2001]

TaiChiBob - really liked your analogy :)

dawood

[Liokault]

This is very true.

My teacher no longer has a close association with his teacher so they have not done a form together for maybe 10 years. My teacher feels that he has kept faithfull to the form the way it was taught but we occasionaly get guys come down from his teachers class who have been taught things differently.
The differances tend to be on a quite fundimantal level as well not just minor things so over the 10 years my teachers teacher has moved on quite a lot!

[[Censored]]

Naturally, if you don't change, then you can't improve.
Only a fool "practices" what they can already do. :)