Power training?

[David]

Twice in the last month I've met MAs who don't do any power training within their styles. This shocked me!

One was a ninjutsu student who came along one week and found our methods 'interesting'. Another is shotokan who thinks our power training rocks and I'm pretty sure he's going to switch. Also, the ninja didn't do conditioning!

When the first guy told me, I laughed and when the second told me I started thinking wtf?!!?

This post is for you to re-assure me that you're all training kungfu and developing approriate power and power-chains in class. I'd like to know whether it's normal in other arts to ignore power training. How can it be?:confused:

Is this why some people go to the gym?:confused:

-David

[Tainan Mantis]

What is power training?

[Shaolin-Do]

lol.
Power training is what keeps making the broken bone in my wrist push out further. :(
hehe.

[Guile]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
What is power training?

Think DragonBallZ:p

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
What is power training?

the basics

[Former castleva]

"Is this why some people go to the gym?"
I do not know who you are referring to,in exact sense but it would seem to be hard to "equal" it.

[David]

By power training I mean training specifically to enhance the techniques' power. Resistance training is a prime example from my mantis. Partners resist each others attempts to execute a technique.

Endurance training also. Standing in horse is power training.

The guys I spoke to learned how to hit but didn't do any training to make the strikes stronger in execution etc etc. They didn't do horse stance or anything. Both their teachers are around the 30yrs MA mark.

rgds,
David

[Former castleva]

:)

[Shaolin-Do]

we have 2 heavy bags, but only 1 T bracket. So with the extra 70lb bag, Ive been putting it on my shoulders and standing in horse stance for as long as I can every day. 1 week and Im already seeing quite a bit of improvement in my horse stance...

[Vapour]

There are certain number of martial arts which introduce power/resistance training very late in the phase of training. One is taiiquan and other is aikido.

Firstly, let me say that this does not mean they don't train hard especially in hard style of these arts. In harder style of these soft/internal arts, push up and holding posture exercises are common.

On the other hand, resistance trainings are introduced at very late stage.

You probably have to be dan grade to have fully resisting partner in kokyu undo. In taijiquan, often, you start to do pushhand competitively only after you learned entire form and push hands form which takes about 1 year.

[Robinf]

Martial Arts classes are typically only one hour long. Instructors need to teach the skills. It is then left to the student to add power behind the techniques/skills. This often leads to going to the gym and practicing on one's own. Class can only go so far given the time constraints.

[Sho]

Training isn't quite the same as it used to be back in the old days. Most of us simply can't become full-time disciples and train 24/7, because we are either engaged to work or to school.

The following is my rough conception of contemporary training.

In the modern times, people tend join a school and train there around 2-3 times a week and 1-2 hours per session. These classes serve as a foundational training program where you either learn something new or receive criticism and improve/refine your skills under qualified instruction.

Most of your training will be done during your own time. You basically practice what you have learned. People who only train at their school aren't practicing very efficiently. Of course, some people might have difficulties with their busy schedule and not be able to train on their own. Weightlifting is very important to gain power and you need to do this during your own time.

[shaolin kungfu]

There simply isn't enough time to weight train in class. Although pushups and stance work are sometimes part of the in class training.

[David]

With the exception of vapours account of taiji and aikido, most of you have almost the opposite training method to me!

With the exception of pushups and some arcane methods, most our power development comes through partner training. For most students, that means in-class (it's amazingly difficult to find mutually convenient times to train with anyone outside of class!).

In class, we work on power and sensitivity and learn a new method or two.

Outside of class, apart from mantis pushups etc, we concentrate on getting the techniques right through analysis and repetition.

We are advised not to use weights.

Good training to all!

-David

[SevenStar]

Why are you advised not to use weights?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Robinf
Martial Arts classes are typically only one hour long. Instructors need to teach the skills. It is then left to the student to add power behind the techniques/skills. This often leads to going to the gym and practicing on one's own. Class can only go so far given the time constraints.

she hit the nail on theh ead. When I was in longfist, class was 1.5 hours. we spend it sparring, drilling, learning new thing/receiving corrections, and forms work. Things like pushups, stance training and other caletchenics were done during the 15 - 20 min warmup. We were shown three star drills, iron palm, etc. but it was our own responsibility to do those on our own after class, or between classes (many of the intermediates and advanced would attend both the beginner and intermediate classes, which were on the same day, back to back. Adv. class was a different day)


with grappling, power just seems to come naturally. in muay thai, it's also natural. bag and pad work is a necessary part of training. it's that training that conditions the limbs, and develops striking power.

[Water Dragon]

Do most people associate Power Training with weights? I've always been taught that power sets are there own thing. They have to do with generating power in the body. Here's a link to an article on the Tan Ging Hay (sp?) from Southern Mantis. I don't practice SPM, but I do like these exercises. I've seen power sets in Xing Yi, SPM, Baji, Taiji, and Bagua. I know that they MUST exist in other systems as well. They appear to be too wide spread no to. Thoughts?

http://www.mindspring.com/~kmustafa/ckfa_atl/wkfwint95.htm

[Tainan Mantis]

Traditional kung fu uses heavy weights.
Such as lifting and throwing a heavy stone or sand bag.

David,
What are yur 2 person exercises?

[Daredevil]

Water Dragon,

I share your confusion. I'm bloody amazed.

I was pleasantly surprised to see a thread about power training here, hoping to see how other folks do it in their styles. The thread took off in an odd direction, though.

Also, Vapour said something about Taijiquan not introducing power training early on. I'll have to respectfully disagree. Power training has been present in the Taijiquan (Chen style) I've practised almost from day one. Stance training is power training and in a way so is the form practise. You're learning the power generation method of the system in them.

Personally, I think training in a style's power generation method is the MOST important thing you can do with your practise. Without it, your martial art has no claws and teeth.

I'm not anti-weights, and not saying lifting weights doesn't make you stronger. It sure as hell does. But not all systems of generating power are the same and there are other methods of training power.

[Water Dragon]

I'm a big fan of weights Daredevil. I listed two exercises I do for grip strength on the forearm thread. When I think of "power training" though, I think of compress-release exercises; generating power in the spine, etc.

[Daredevil]

Right there with ya, WD.

[David]

The way it has been given to me is that weights basically do not match up to the demands of reality. There's a thread (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=17137) in which abobo gives this (http://www.geocities.com/dino_rack_training/) link. That linked article explains a large portion of my stance on this.

Originally posted by David
That was a very interesting read, Abobo.

In the style I train, we're told not to do any conventional weight-training and these old guys seem to provide circumstantial support for that dictum.

One-arm training (with a partner) is common, as is two-arm training including uneven loads, positions and vectors. Balance (root) is emphasised differently according to exercise - bringing the stabilizing muscles into play in concert with the main force. Just what you need for kungfu.

There are a few examples of training with ‘odd’ implements in Chow Gar. For example – grip strength - apart from empty hand grip-strengthening using dynamic tension, there is also an exercise where you (try to) pull heavy posts out of the ground by gripping their tops, claw-fashion.

-David

Other inputs have included research papers on how muscles learn and what they can do with their knowledge. Answer = muscles can only perform effectively in the EXACT manner in which they are trained.

WD, I also think of that kinda thing. For me it's ribs and elbows being emphasised.

rgds all,
David

[fa_jing]

Wing Chun has very little power training. Five star blocking, stance training, one leg training, lots of punches and stance shifts.

I think focus mitts are some of the best power training for Wing Chun or regular boxing, followed by the heavy bag and airshield.

Exercise is good.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by David

WD, I also think of that kinda thing. For me it's ribs and elbows being emphasised.


Of course you do! You're an SPM guy. You guys have EXCELLANT exercises. I practice the 3 short powers and "ging" a barbell off my forearms. They fit in extremely well with what I do.

[fa_jing]

The day someone manages to combine SPM and Shuai Chiao into a single new style, WaterDragon is going to cream in his longjohns.

:D

[Water Dragon]

Actually, the SPM exercises are being combined with Xing Yi power exercises. The Shuai Chiao doesn't have compress-release. At least I haven't been made aware of it, if it exists.

[fa_jing]

That's a good thing because those cleaner bills for longjohns can be pretty steep


Just yanking your chain. :p

[Water Dragon]

Yank my chain too much and I will cream my longjohns :eek:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Do most people associate Power Training with weights? I've always been taught that power sets are there own thing. They have to do with generating power in the body. Here's a link to an article on the Tan Ging Hay (sp?) from Southern Mantis. I don't practice SPM, but I do like these exercises. I've seen power sets in Xing Yi, SPM, Baji, Taiji, and Bagua. I know that they MUST exist in other systems as well. They appear to be too wide spread no to. Thoughts?

http://www.mindspring.com/~kmustafa/ckfa_atl/wkfwint95.htm

when you mention power, the first thing that will come to most people's minds is external power, not power from the spine.

[fa_jing]

I think to a Kung Fu practicioner, it's the other way around.

But I could be wrong.

Edit: the first thing that comes to my mind is training that involves hitting a bag.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

now that i've returned to training after 8 months off i can definitely say that weights have absolutely nothing to do with power. i'm weak .... i realized how weak i was when i helped my buddy move a little while ago. i mean im not struggling with 20lbs or anything, but im definitely running at about 40-50% strength. i expected the same when i returned to the heavy bag a month and a half ago. surprisingly though my striking did not deteriorate anywhere near that level. i was probably striking about 70% from the get go and have been quickly improving. i'd say im creeping up on 85% of my old power. i always believed it to be true, but this proved to me how little strength had to do with power.

all this said i love lifting and can't wait to get back to it. it's not like you'll never be able to use strength in a fight.

off the top of my head my main power generation exercises would be 2 breathing sets, stance work, the heavy bag, pad work, drilling slowly with a partner, striking a brick wall very - fairly slow, slow sparing.

done in full (working back up to it now) the first breathing set involves sitting in horse for about 15 minutes while doing simple arm movements along with your breath. without break i go immediately into another which involves going down to thighs parallel, holding it, coming back up, back down etc. this helps me build root which a little guy like me needs to have any power at all. all the emphasis on slow training is to give your body the time needed to perfect everything for whatever type of power you are generating. gives you time to adjust and to feel what every inch needs to be doing when whipping, sinking, turning, spiraling, etc. it's honestly a toss up to me as to which is more valuble in my power training... bag work or slow training. the more i train the more i'm leaning towards slow training. ill always do both though.

[SevenStar]

It's all in how you lift. A good strength program does indeed increase power. Learning how to apply it is a different story.

[shaolin kungfu]

heavy bag work, two man drills concentrating on resistance,stance work(mostly horse), mild weight lifting.

[Shaolin-Do]

Heavy bag workouts are good for power, but if using a heavy bag you need to do more speed training. Heavy bags get you used to your hand stopping at contact.
I usually do lots of wrist push ups and dips, then pushing and breathing drills.... :)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by fa_jing
I think to a Kung Fu practicioner, it's the other way around.

But I could be wrong.

Edit: the first thing that comes to my mind is training that involves hitting a bag.

I'd consider that external.

Even for a kung fu practitioner, I'd bet most external guys would think of external things - notice what's been mentioned so far - stance work, 3 star drills, bagwork, etc.

[Water Dragon]

hmmmm, Did we inadvertently discover the difference between internal and external?

[Shaolin-Do]

"Answer = muscles can only perform effectively in the EXACT manner in which they are trained." WD - thats neuromuscular reactions :)
But let me fix that quote - muscles can perform most effectively in the EXACT manner that they are trained. :)

Theres internal and external power, neither was specified in the name of this post... and Im not quite sure if you guys are arguing yet... but if you are no ones right or wrong. ;p

[David]

Nice one Shaolin-Do : this is about the different methods amongst the community. All the posts have answered my original question so I'm happy :)

People dabble in short-hand styles sometimes and take the principles back to whatever it was they came in on - to their 'secret' advantage :cool:

You guys have heard of the Chinese flip-off about big muscles equals easy target..? (7* excluded cos u train like a mutha!)

It's late here. g'night.

-David

[Daredevil]

Nobody seems to agree on the exact details of the external-internal divide.

I must say I'd like the definition this thread is hinting at. It neatly also includes room for styles which are not entirely external, but include (perhaps at some latter point) "internal" methods of power training.

I think this definition is a KFO special, though.

[joedoe]

It sounds like your school and my school train power in a similar way - partnered exercises rather than weights. Good to hear we aren't alone in our methods :)