Hate Crime at a local school..

[SanSoo Student]

I heard about a local hate crime at a school near where I live. Happened a few weeks ago, it involved an Arab group and "White-Power" gang that were about to fight at a park. The group of Arabs decided not to show and left a single Arab guy to deal with the other gang.

The guy ended up with 3 broken ribs, broken jaw, broken nose, broken arm, and a serious concussion, thankfully he didn't die. The gang of twelve white-power guys had apparently beat the guy with baseball bats and golf clubs.

How would a martial arts take this situation, if you were trapped and could NOT run? How much would you get in trouble for extreme self defense, such as crippling/killing 1 or 2 of the attackers?

[Ether]

1) Dont be there / run like ****.

2) Beg for your life.

3) Try and keep your head and neck covered.

4) pray.

5) Try and remember faces.

You cant hope to win against a large number of people (you dont say exactly how many people) unless you are armed and they arent. Even then I wouldnt fancy my chances.

What would be the point in crippling one of them when the rest are then gonna have a REALLY good reason to **** you up?

[Laughing Cow]

Once you are in such a situation all you can do is try not to antagonise them further in any mehod.

Chances of 1 vs many that are possible armed are slim no matter what weapon you carry or what MA you learned.

Best bet is not to get involved with people or groups like the ones mentioned above.

Cheers.

[Ish]

i'd try to talk my way out of it but the second i realise it wont work id try to **** one of them up real bad. Either cripple or kill one or mabe a couple then try to make them think i could take them all.

I'd probly get myself in more trouble but the way i see it is if im gona get my head kicked in anyway i might be able to take a couple of them down on the way.

[pseudoswitch]

This is what happens when someone is stupid enough to think they can handle multiple opponents. What the hell was he doing trying to fight a group of people on his own?

How would a martial artist handle a situation like this?? Try like hell not to be in that situation in the first place.

[Abstract]

that if ppl knew this world's history alil' better they'd know that a great deal if not all of caucasian ppl's on this earth are in one way or another decendants of the Arab diaspora. People are so **** ignorant...we're all connected, one human race...

stupid asses.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Fred Sanford]

How much would you get in trouble for extreme self defense, such as crippling/killing 1 or 2 of the attackers?

first, I doubt if most martial artists are all that deadly regardless of what they might think.

second if twelve mofo's with baseball bats and golf clubs decide they really want to hurt you there ain't too much you can do about it except go down swinging and start thinking about that nice bed in the hospital.

[Mr Chips]

what a bunch of ****s the arabs are, to **** off and leave one guy to fight 12, just shows how dumb all that gang crap is. Simply put, in this situation you are ****ed, especially if you let them surround you. I guess the only options are to try to use multi-attacker strategies (there have been other threads on that) or to crawl into a ball to minimise damage and hope they get bored with hitting you while you are still alive.
I wouldn't give a flying **** about what happens to them, if you did fluke it and kill one of them you would have little problem convincing a court that you acted in self defence. Assuming you're still alive to go to court :D

[Shaolin-Do]

Sorry, But like others have said, no matter what martial arts you know, you are not going to take out 12 mofo's w/baseball bats...
I would probably... either run,
Or bust out my cell phone, have a filthy ol beating squad on the way,
or 3. try to remember face of those who administered beating, and track each one of those sorry mofo's down and give him proper "one on one" treatment.
Seriously, your legs or your celly are the only things gonna help you here....
Or the AK you luckily had hidden in your long johns.
:)

[pseudoswitch]

Don't you know if you study karate for 7 years you can handle 5 guys at the same time?!!!!!

bdahahahahahahaha :D :D :D

sorry, hehe, that's just something someone told me once :)

[Ashez]

What if you happen to be carrying a 9 Section Chain or something?

[Shaolin-Do]

Or you could just hide your kwandao behind your leg.
...
...
:)

[dwid]

.... sorry, couldn't help it.

[Watchman]

first, I doubt if most martial artists are all that deadly regardless of what they might think. second if twelve mofo's with baseball bats and golf clubs decide they really want to hurt you there ain't too much you can do about it except go down swinging and start thinking about that nice bed in the hospital.

I find it amusing that a bunch of posters on a "Street/Reality Forum" don't mention the use of firearms.


Chances of 1 vs many that are possible armed are slim no matter what weapon you carry or what MA you learned.

So, you don't think a handgun would improve your chances of survival?

[SanSoo Student]

High School Kids, you need to be 21 to buy and carry a handgun.
Unless you happen to have some sort of rifle with you.

[shaolin kungfu]

illegal firearms are fairly easy to get.

[Watchman]

High School Kids, you need to be 21 to buy and carry a handgun.

SanSoo, if you recall, you asked a rhetorical question about what we would do as martial artists if we found ourselves in similar circumstances:


How would a martial arts take this situation, if you were trapped and could NOT run?

Personally, I would start sending rounds down range.

[Fred Sanford]

depending on the state you may or may not be able to legally carry a handgun.

a handgun might help, then again you may just get shot with your own gun.

If I remember right the average person can cover 21 feet in about 1.5 seconds, can you draw your handgun, accrurately aim it and shoot a target that is moving in that time? I bet most people can't.

[Fred Sanford]

a gun might improve someones chances of surviving such an encounter, then again I think it depends on the level of training the individual has. a handgun isn't a magic solution in and of itself.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Fred Sanford
a gun might improve someones chances of surviving such an encounter, then again I think it depends on the level of training the individual has. a handgun isn't a magic solution in and of itself.

Agreed, a gun is only as effective as the person wielding it.

Plus, there might be situations when you cannot draw, aim and shoot your gun safely or got enough room/space to do so.
Too many people rely too heavily on their firearms as a deterent or a final means of ending a confrontation.

Rely on anything too much and you will suffer for it.

Example:
Above scenario you are facing multiple attackers with baseball-bats.
Guaranteed one of those guys will take out the wrist of the hand holding the gun, if you got a shot off and wounded/killed on of theirs your chances of surviving the confrontation just drastically lowered.
Those guys didn't assemble there to play patty-cake, they most prolly are hyped up under the influence and wanting to stomp someone.

Cheers.

[Serpent]

What happens if you pull out your gun and then the five guys (that were only going to beat you) decide to pull out their guns too?

[Watchman]

Fred, I completely agree. A firearm is a tool, and the utility of a tool is directly related to the skill of it's wielder.


What happens if you pull out your gun and then the five guys (that were only going to beat you) decide to pull out their guns too?

Serpent, until I complete my Jedi training I have absolutely no way of reading their minds. How could I possibly know if they were only going to "beat" me?

Lets say I could read their minds. Which alternative is preferrable? If they're only going to beat me I should just lay down, curl up, and hope they don't cripple me? LOL!

"Please Mr. Criminal, I don't want to do anything that might aggravate you!" :rolleyes:

If you think about it, if they are coming at me with bats it's because they assume I'm not armed - or else they would already have me at gunpoint. Let's assume they have a gun or two themselves. If I draw and start sending rounds down range I can potentially start maneuvering for an escape in the ensuing chaos while they are ducking for cover and trying to reach their own weapons.

It's called "gunning and running".

[Fred Sanford]

5+ guys with bats and golf clubs I'm pretty sure that you would have legal justification for defending yourself with a handgun. so at the point where you decide your life is in danger and draw, you should already be pulling that trigger.


Guaranteed one of those guys will take out the wrist of the hand holding the gun, if you got a shot off and wounded/killed on of theirs your chances of surviving the confrontation just drastically lowered

that's not a guarantee by any means. close quarters you would certainly be in serious trouble if outnumbered by that much.

ever see combat style shooting? it wont' be just one shot and you don't stand still like a dummy. double tap to the body(hopefully the heart) and 1 to the head while moving.


What happens if you pull out your gun and then the five guys (that were only going to beat you) decide to pull out their guns too?

to me that's a moot point. if I pulled a gun i'd be shooting the split second i see that front sight post.

[guohuen]

Heck, there are people that can empty the clip into target in a five inch circle and reload in 1.5 seconds. I tell anyone that owns a firearm for selfdefense that they need to go to the range a minimum of ten times a year to practice. That's if their already competant. When I managed a sporting goods shop I would not sell a firearm to a novice (my legal perogative) without evidence of a hunter safety course, self defence course and membership at a range.

[Serpent]

It's distressing really that you guys even need to consider this stuff.

:(

[scotty1]

Having to think about this stuff is pretty much an alien concept to me too.

[guohuen]

Sadly, it's only a matter of time now that the genie is out of the bottle.

[Serpent]

What do you mean?

[guohuen]

It won't be much longer before crimes commited with firearms becomes prevelant. It's happening in England.

[Internal Boxer]

Yeah but legally we are not allowed hand guns and probably never will (which I think is a good thing, people are bad enough driving their cars killing people never mind giving them a f.ucking gun).

The Government's already drawing more legislation to protect burglars from the victim defending themselves or their property, I tell you its a total pi.ss take over here, they really take the side of the criminal its pathetic, and pi.sses every body I talk to about it.

If you live over here you will see political correctness gone mad, the politicians are so scared of their own shadow they do not want to face real issues because they are too scared of any bad PR, so they just ignore it and things get worse.

The police are too busy focusing on speeding fines as it increases their revenue, as it is easier to tackle a law abiding citizen who fu.cks up by driving a little fast than it is to chase real criminals.

The only time the average person sees a policeman is when they get a speeding fine or they have just been burgled. I have been burgled twice and they never caught the bas.tards. I have talked to many coppers and they are so frustrated that when they eventually catch a burglar, spending hundreds of man hours on the case, the courts are so lenient. Our courts have got to be at the top of the pile for JOKE sentencing. Anyway thats my rant for the day!

[lowsweep]

If I was surrounded by 12 guys with bats there are a few options I would choose from:
1. Jackie Chan Movie Style: pick up a ladder, moose antlers, or anything else that happens to be lying around and beat everyone up. Then run (a little funny) away. Better yet, just call up Jackie Chan for some help.
2. Bruce Lee style: give a whaaaaaa! and attack them insanely, while I stop to flex my muscles between breaking people over my iron fists.
3. Jet Li style: quickly attatch my wires, fly up and do a 1080 triple flip quadruple back front sidekick roundhouse and nail all of them in one go.
Now the ordinary person, unarmed with knowledge from the movies, would just have to wait around till they got killed.

[tnwingtsun]

Yeah but legally we are not allowed hand guns and probably never will (which I think is a good thing, people are bad enough driving their cars killing people never mind giving them a f.ucking gun). "


OK..

"



The Government's already drawing more legislation to protect burglars from the victim defending themselves or their property, I tell you its a total pi.ss take over here, they really take the side of the criminal its pathetic, and pi.sses every body I talk to about it.

If you live over here you will see political correctness gone mad, the politicians are so scared of their own shadow they do not want to face real issues because they are too scared of any bad PR, so they just ignore it and things get worse."

Are you not one of those feeding that Political correct beast
that you hate so much??

I would say so from the way your post started,sometimes ya can't have it both ways mate

;)

[myosimka]

I might be tempted to use it as some here have advocated. And the other guys might have guns, or just enough courage to bum rush me. (Doubt I can cap a number of them and reload and cap more without someone getting to me) And now, whether it was lethal encounter before or not, I have made it one.
Because I don't carry a gun, I don't even consider doing this sort of crap. I don't go brawling; I don't get out of the car if my friends don't show; I don't stick around when I see the number. I do steer clear of this puerile crap; I do practice de-escalation and situational awareness; I do run when facing insurmountable odds.

We don't have all the facts as this a heresay case on the internet but from what we were told, I'd have to say that only one MA would have been a good idea: Track Fu. But not surprising that the victim wasn't smart enough to pull it off as he had already made several key(and potentially fatal) errors in judgment before it ever got to that point.

[Yung Apprentice]

First off, this post said that this was at a park, so obviously there is enough room to pull out a gun, and depending how close the confrontation is, more the enough room to cap the guys stupid enough to come at me.

9 times out of 10, people will scramble as they see a gun pulled out, it's like an involuntary reaction. If you pull a gun, and quickly start shooting at them, or in there direction, no gun or gun, they are running for their lives. If you have ever been in a situation where a gun was pulled, you would know this.

As soon as I pull my gun out, and the baddies start scrambling , I would use that avg 1.5 seconds in 21 feet to get the hell out of there. I would be long gone, or out of range.So if some did decide to pull out their guns after I shot at them, assuming this guy wasn't a sniper of course, but since them being some stupid skinhead, I doubt they would be accurate enough, after the time I bought for myself to get away.

A gun is not a perfect answer. But I sure as hell like my chances a lot better then relying on my hands. I think it increases my chances dramatically.

Also, guns are fairly easy to attain. If your 18 you can get a shotgun or rifle. Or an illegal hand gun. I once knew a guy who would sell revolvers for 50 bucks, and semi- automatics for 40. Wanted a fully auto? Cost a lot more, but was ten times cheaper then getting one legally.

[myosimka]

It isn't obvious at all how much space there was. Parks have buildings, corners, recesses, etc. Plus you are assuming he makes this choice before they have closed the gap. Why would you make the assumption he acted intelligently when in every other case he made the wrong choice?

9 times out of 10? I love those stats!!"If you have ever been in a situation where a gun was pulled, you would know this." Wouldn't I have to be in at least 10 situations? Wouldn't I need to be in nearly 1500 with various types of attackers to get a statistical sample? Or are you just speculating and pulling it out of your ....? Yeah, that's what I thought. And I have been in one situation where a guy didn't run when a gun was pulled.(me and I wasn't thinking very rationally at that point) And in 2 situations with knives.(Once took flight, once not) So personally I don't think I am going to take your assumption as fact.

You're right; guns are fairly easy to obtain. And yet you assume this band of thugs who might be packing would turn and run rather than draw and turn it into a gunfight of overwhelming odds? Good plan.

I never said I'd rely on my hands. I rely on my judgement and intellect. Which is why I haven't been in so much as a shouting match in 10 years.(well except with the wife and there is no gun in the house) Why get into this crap at all? And as to having guns just in case, my personal belief is that those people get into these situations more often than those who don't pack. Just take the justice department stats about violent crime and gun ownership. You can choose not to take that as fact as well I suppose. Carry a gun if you will but remember that it's a weapon, not armor. Offense not defense.( and yeah I like Vince Lombardi too)

[Yung Apprentice]

I love how people break down my post!

Anyways, the 9 times out of 10 stat, isn't a fact, it's a guess. But what I love is how people who have never been in a situtation with a gun, say how they would do this or that and blah, blah, blah.(I'm not referring to you)

I've been in 5 situations out in public where a gun was pulled.(not even 21 yet) Twice they were pulled on me. Once i was even fired upon. I didn't get hit, but my friend did. In a situation where a gun is pulled, you fear for your life. (guessing most normal people would feel this way too) Some people freeze up from fright, other run at the slightest gesture for reaching for a gun. Some duck or drop to the floor, some think their Superman and stay.(I'm guessing they are the ones who get shot the most out of all the different reactions)


I reacted differently each time I was put in a situation. The first I froze. The time I was fired upon, I ran for my life. Other times I dropped to the floor, and once I thought I was Superman.

I based my opinion on my experience (i guess I was wrong :rolleyes: ) I based my opinion on how I reacted, and how the people I've seen out in public reacted.

[Laughing Cow]

Yung Appentice.

One major problem with your scenario:

You FIRST pulled the gun and fired of a shot, not a good position to be in when the cops come inquiring.

If you got that much distance and time to do it your SD argument weakens a lot.
Plus, it will be your word vs THEIRS.

Also don't count on guys to disappear when a gun is pulled.
If those guys are coming for a fight they most prolly are hyped, tanked and maybe even took some drugs and are spoiling for blood.

There is a good chance that if you hit one of theirs that they will come back to finish you off for good.

Very different situation than lets say an opportunity mugger or guy getting in your face in bar or similar.

It might work and it might not, it is a gamble tht could leave you free, in hospital or in jail.

For the record I had guns pulled on me and I also been fired upon, plus, at one time I was also carrying.

Cheers.

[Yung Apprentice]

True. But if pulling a gun and firing DID work, I wouldn't much care what the cops thought because I would be safe.

If they are street punks, I doubt they would go to the cops. Sure there might be witnesses, but, you never know. They might have been to scared to say something.

Like Is aid before, many things could go down, I never said it was a 100% garuntee I would be safe, never did I say that. I know that just as well as you all. But given the right situation, it would help tremendously.

[Laughing Cow]

Yung Apprentice.

Problem I see with this thread is that the scenario has evolved from the original one given at the start of the thread.


2 Groups meet to have a fight, 1st group shows up in full strength 2nd group only you show up as your friends pulled a fast one.


Now if you go armed with a gun to such a fight you are yourself a street punk kid.

Remember we are still talking school-kids here not the average adults that are suddenly attacked by a bunch of guys.

And, yes, in the above scenario there will be most probably an inquiry by the cops into what went down.

Cheers.

[Yung Apprentice]

But given the right situation, it would help tremendously

I meant to say it "COULD" help tremendously given the right situation.


Now if you go armed with a gun to such a fight you are yourself a street punk kid.

Wasn't that what this thread was about? Punk kids getting into it? I would never get myself into this situation in the first place. So, park or no park, gun or no gun, police or no police, I wouldn't have been invloved either way.

[myosimka]

Yes, perople pick apart posts because some of us feel compelled to cry BS when we hear it. You don't like it, don't say it. 9 out of 10, you pulled it out of your butt, admit it, that's all.

" reacted differently each time I was put in a situation. The first I froze. The time I was fired upon, I ran for my life. Other times I dropped to the floor, and once I thought I was Superman.

I based my opinion on my experience (i guess I was wrong ) I based my opinion on how I reacted, and how the people I've seen out in public reacted."

Despite your tongue in cheek response to say that it was based on your experience even that isn't true. Your experience would dictate that you never know how someone will react. After all, you reacted differently every time. But you wanted to make a point so like many internet logicians you made up a stat to back up your point.

Oh hell, why I am arguing with a guy who routinely gets into situations where firearms are brandished and thinks that rolling the dice and getting his own gun is a better bet than leaving the table? The point that some people are trying to make is that the best way to win here is not to play. My original point that you contested was on guns vs. not playing which you turned into guns vs. relying on hands. And you have a problem with my questioning your BS? Whatev, dude.

[Yung Apprentice]

Oh hell, why I am arguing with a guy who routinely gets into situations where firearms are brandished and thinks that rolling the dice and getting his own gun is a better bet than leaving the table?

UUUMMM, o.k., whatever. I don't own a gun, I'm only 20, not old enough yet to. As for routinely getting into these situations, it is unfortunate that I have to live in such a bad part of town. Which is not something that should be made fun of. I'm not some punk who looks for trouble. My friend who was shot in front of me died. He didn't ask for it, but got caught up in crossfire.


9 out of 10, you pulled it out of your butt, admit it, that's all.

I had already admitted to making it up, although not once did I ever say it was a fact. Pulled it out of my butt??? Maybe you should pull the stick from yours.




My original point that you contested was on guns vs. not playing which you turned into guns vs. relying on hands


Your right, I'm gulity of that. I'm man enough to admit I was wrong.


internet logicians you made up a stat to back up your point.

Gulity of that too.




my personal belief is that those people get into these situations more often than those who don't pack


There are of course exceptions. Like I stated before, I don't carry, yet am unfortunate to be in these situations.



Your experience would dictate that you never know how someone will react

True, but in MY EXPERIENCE, more often then not, people ran.


And you have a problem with my questioning your BS

Not at all, I just find it funny how angry one can sound over the internet.


The point that some people are trying to make is that the best way to win here is not to play

I'm aware of that, as I stated before, and I agree, but that's not what the post is about.


I rely on my judgement and intellect. Which is why I haven't been in so much as a shouting match in 10 years

Yet you insult a stanger over the internet? Wouldn't your judgment and intellect dictate that it's not worth it? I mean, you threw acouple in****s my way, isn't that a bit juvenile? What's next, "yo momma" jokes?


Yeah, I said a couple things. Said some mistakes. Big deal, I'm only human. My name's yung apprentice for a reason, I'm still learning. And that goes for all apects of life, not just martial arts. Why bother getting all irritated over some internet crap? You turned this thread into a personal attack against me, because I made mistakes in my argument????

Is it in any way, satisfying to you, that some stranger over the internet has admitted to being wrong in his argument? If so, you need to get a life.

[myosimka]

I cried BS to your post, you are the one who took offense. Then you preceded to back pedal and I pointed that out too. You want to get offended and view it as insulting, that's your right.

And as to the insult? What insult? That I don't feel like having the conversation with someone who holds up the number of times he has been in situations where guns are out as a badge of honor? I still don't. You want to get insulted about that go ahead. I said nothing offensive but passed a personal judgement on your comments. That's not an insult. Get over it.

"you should pull the stick from yours.""you need to get a life" Those are insults. Pull the insulting line from mine. Hmmm, not there. Did I make clear my disdain for you? Sure but that's just my opinion and I didn't actually say anything insulting. Get over it.



"rely on my judgement and intellect. Which is why I haven't been in so much as a shouting match in 10 years
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yet you insult a stanger over the internet? Wouldn't your judgment and intellect dictate that it's not worth it? "

Since you keep wanting to cite the original purpose of this post, I ask: How does arguing(not insulting) with someone over the internet consitute a self-defense error? I don't get into shouting matches because they can escalate into physical conflicts that are dangerous. I never said that I was mellow. Also, I do think it's worthwhile to point out when someone who states things in a forum on self-defense that I feel are dangerous and ill-advised and supports it with BS. And I think they should be addressed as being full of BS for all the same people that saw the original post to see. It's called point-counterpoint.

I am sorry that viewed my recognition of your BS as an insult.


Lastly, I didn't turn it into a personal attack although you clearly felt that need. I called what you said BS and pointed out to any reader that your stat was a fiction at best. I didn't attack you because you made mistakes; I attacked the parts of your argument that you fabricated. You don't like that, don't do it.

[Yung Apprentice]

What insult?



you pulled it out of your butt

Nice way of crying BS, but thats an offensive thing to say.


pointed out to any reader that your stat was a fiction at best

Wow, thanks for pointing that out. I admitted to it too by the way. I guess I was using it more of a figure of speach, that in my experience ppl tend to run more.



Then you preceded to back pedal and I pointed that out too

Back pedal? Am I in some sort of internet fight here??? LOL, man you are taking this way to seriously. MAN, I CAN'T EVEN ADMIT I'M WRONG WITH YOU, BECAUSE YOU CALL IT BACKPEDALING? Jeez, I can't even lose an argument gracefully can I? UH OH, I'M BACK PEDALING AGAIN, I'm scared of some lil tiff with the guy on the internet!!!!


I attacked the parts of your argument that you fabricated

It was more a figure of speech, get over it.




Also, I do think it's worthwhile to point out when someone who states things in a forum on self-defense that I feel are dangerous and ill-advised and supports it with BS.

The facts were BS, as I stated TWICE already, but my expereince's were not. My opinion on the matter hasn't changed, I still think ppl will run more often then not.




That I don't feel like having the conversation with someone who holds up the number of times he has been in situations where guns are out as a badge of honor

**sigh** Not once did I ever wear it like a badge of honor, now you are one who is fabricating things. I merely stated how I was unfortunate enough to be in these situations. Do you think I would take my friend's death so lightly? As to wear it as a badge of honor? I'm just stating my expereinces, that doesn't mean I'm proud of them.

Maybe you haven't said any insults per se, but the manner in which you write has been insulting. Sorry for not being specific, I know how much it means to you to be specific.


I don't feel like having the conversation

Yet you still reply to me. Yet you are still arguing, and still having a CONVERSATION.


WOW, you won an internet argument, good for you!:rolleyes: