The definition of good structure

[Miles Teg]

The word structure comes up on countless times in this forum. But I have a feeling that we all have different ideas of what it means. So I thought for all of us to be in the same mind set, you could talk about what you think constitutes good structure.

Ill will start with what I think structure is in a chi sau context:
1.To be able to hold your positionon at any angle even if someone is putting lots of physical pressure on you while still being able to relax.
2. To have every angle covered so that any angle of an attack a partner tries to take, will fall far short.
3. To be able to use the same mechanics to penetrate/manipulate the structure of a resisting partner of lesser skill
etc.

To others this force on force philosophy might be condidered sacrilage. So I know to those people good structure must mean something else.
What is your idea of good structure? Or what is structure?

[S.Teebas]

To others this force on force philosophy might be condidered sacrilage.

The idea of a structure isn't to take the force head on. You simply want to keep your structure while finding the weakest part of theirs and then attack that.

[reneritchie]

Most people have trouble with language. To Tan Sao a punch is "force on force", it's using smart (well timed, well angled, well expressed) force against not-as-smart force. WCK uses force on force all the time (we have to, we're fighting). What we don't do is clash force on force -- try to brutishly, stupidly, unskillfully overcome one force with another. As WCK puts it, we "apply strength in the direction of the wind". Try to walk into the wind, and see what it means.

Structure is really mechanical alignment of the body. We try to position ourselves towards the same goal, "to achieve twice the results with half the effort". This will sometimes be "linked" (all the joints of the body moving and functioning as one, eg. when you want to punch through an opponent), and sometimes "unlinked" (the joints moving independantly of the body whole, eg. when you want to disappear from an opponent's attempts to affect your center or leverage your body).

This is not something new or unique to WCK, but WCK has its own way of going about it (several ways, sometimes mutually contradictory ways, if we look around ;) )

(You can also do some neat tricks with structure, if you're out to entertain ;) )

[mun hung]

Structure in Wing Chun: a stable or moving position that provides an advantage against an opposing energy.

[PaulH]

I like Rene’s insightful post on this as well as his comments on the Gaun Sau’s post. As structure means physical form, it tends to collect or to contain energy or force. If one can be formless in fighting, the opponent will have no real leverage on him. If one assumes certain form, it is because his disposition of this form will beat his opponent’s inferior disposition at that moment in time and place.

[desertwingchun2]

99.9% of the time, the way I interpret "structure" when related to WC it's dealing with techniques and/or the body and its parts.

Each technique has it's proper time to be employed, space to be played in and energy with which to be delivered. Assuming all three are correct the "structure" of that technique cannot be challenged. And since the body and its' parts form the technique they too must be true to time, space and energy.

The fact that, moment by moment things are changing dictates what is considered proper structure.

When I hear "keeping your structure" I think of not compromising any of my parts to allow an opponent to gain advantage.

-David

[canglong]

Well stated David.

I just wanted to add a quote from the to be or not to be thread..."The first stage involves attainment of maximum efficiency in structural unity by aligning one's own body parts to provide an optimum mix of balance, strength and ease of use in relation to three-dimensional space"

[wingchunalex]

I think my approach to wing chun is a little different from other people's, i think its a little softer, or at least our focus is different. so what i say may sound very off the wall to some people and exactly contrary to others.

I see having good structure as mostly refering to being able to keep your balance. I think your stance and body structure/unity should be able to absorb only minimal force, the force that it can't absorb should be turned out/deflected/redirected. instead of absorbing force into your yee jee yim yeung ma, you shift (turning stance, choh ma) and redirect it.

I tend to disagree with these "structure tests" i've seen. like having someone lean on your fist to test your structure, or lean on your bong sau to test your structure. I don't apply structure in that way. I see that as meeting force with force, in a bad way.

for example, lets say you are in a "bad position" you are in a turning stance pointing one way but you bong sau across your body the other way. most people would call this bad structure because if you bong sau is pushed on you are off balance, but if you shift and flow with the force instead of trying to absorb it with your bong sau you are fine. so I see keeping good structure more as being able to keep your balance and not being able to absorb great amounts of force.

so this all might seem a bit "off" to people and thats cool, different strokes for different folks. peace.

[Atleastimnotyou]

Structure, for the most part:

Kim sut, Lok ma, Ting yu, Dung tao, Mai Jiang

[yylee]

>>To others this force on force philosophy might be condidered sacrilage

IMHO, it is not force on force when the person who has good structure does not "feel" much pressure exerted by his/her opponent. However, the opponent may feel like pressing on a heavy duty spring. All the time he/she is just tensing his/her own muscles, thinking that he/she is appling force to the other person but really going no where.

it is hard to explain, need to learn from someone who could show you a relax and springy structure.

[wingchunalex]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
Structure, for the most part:

Kim sut, Lok ma, Ting yu, Dung tao, Mai Jiang


I don't know these terms, could you give their definition. Thanks a lot. peace.

[wingchunalex]

I like the way yylee worded what he said. "springy structure"- I like that.

[Phenix]

Structure is a jumping stone state..
Silk floating in the air is just begining to awake.......


Springy means certain purposely tensing.
Rooted means tensing in the legs.


They said, one feather cannot be added..... That is the begining of understand ..... otherwise, it is still forcefull.

only when there is no one treat hanging on the boddy the Yee is begining awaken to fully function.



Structure? which Structure? ha ha haha

the external 3 syncronizing
the internal 3 syncronizing?
In the realm of physical?
IN the realm of Breathing?
In the realm of Yee?

Which realm?
prajna paramita weightless?


silk floating in the air
tide washing the shore......
all nature....

[Atleastimnotyou]

Originally posted by wingchunalex



I don't know these terms, could you give their definition. Thanks a lot. peace.

Kim sut -- Hips and knees pressing together. The knees not "pinching" in with stiffness, but rather "pressing" firmly, and softly inward and downward. All wing chun teachers will mention "kim sut" in the beginning, but if they don't push it, the practitioner will soon forget. It is too much effort for a lot of people, and it is painful. If they (teacher and student) are not committed, it is the first thing they will abandon. If you push it, it is extra hard work, but "kim sut" cannot be avoided if one is to become proficient. In Chung's class, when the student thinks that he is really sinking into the floor and really pressing the knees and hips together, Chung will walk by and quietly tell him to "sink" and "press" just a little bit more.
Lok ma -- Lower the stance downward, sinking through the knees. Lok ma is where the "rootedness" is developed. It trains the legs to effectively support he body, and helps the practitioner to, later on, develop the advancing step of wing chun.
Ting yu -- Back straight, pelvis rolled under slightly so that each vertebrae is stacked one on top of the other. The spine is completely aligned. The upper body should not be leaning back nor is the head tilted forward. Maintaining the head in the right position and proper execution of ting yu is a prerequisite for dung tao.
Dung tao -- Head up, neck relaxing into the shoulders; shoulders drifting downward by gravity with no tension. The head should be held as if being pulled upward gently by a string to help draw the spine straight.
Mai jiang -- Pressing the elbows inward and forward. Without using force, the elbows should maintain a fist's distance from the torso. The energy projects from the elbow forward, through a relaxed forearm and hand

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou

In Chung's class, when the student thinks that he is really sinking into the floor and really pressing the knees and hips together, Chung will walk by and quietly tell him to "sink" and "press" just a little bit more.
The Chung referred to is Ken Chung of San Jose, California. The article which so baldly ripped off is available online (http://www.wingchun.com/Ken_article.html).

Kim sut, Lok ma, Ting yu, Dung tao, Mai Jiang are structual elements that are part of every proper Wing Chun horse, with one exception to the correct principle of Dung Tao (head up), but that's a small nit. :D

I was hoping you would mention these structural elements, since they are part of your sig. :)

All the best,

[reneritchie]

I see having good structure as mostly refering to being able to keep your balance. I think your stance and body structure/unity should be able to absorb only minimal force, the force that it can't absorb should be turned out/deflected/redirected. instead of absorbing force into your yee jee yim yeung ma, you shift (turning stance, choh ma) and redirect it.

If you think about it, that's not really workable. A path is a path, whether it is incoming or outgoing force. If you can't support force with your structure, it not only means you can't stand there while someone pushes on you, it means you can't stand there when you push on someone (hit). In the instant of striking, you need to provide a stable platform so the initial force goes into them and doesn't bounce you off instead (or collapse you if your bridges are weaker).

When you're capable of aligning, and are sensitive enough to accept incoming force, you can then *choose* to change, rather than always being forced into recovery mode (which sacrifices options and timing).

This means, if I know an attack is not serious enough to cause me problems, I can just cleave the center and finish immediately. It also means, though the body sensitivity, if the force is bigger than my buffer can sustain (gained through experience), I can change while still keeping control of myself, and achieve more advantageous positioning.

[kj]

Originally posted by reneritchie
A path is a path, whether it is incoming or outgoing force. If you can't support force with your structure, it not only means you can't stand there while someone pushes on you, it means you can't stand there when you push on someone (hit).

Yup.


Originally posted by yylee
IMHO, it is not force on force when the person who has good structure does not "feel" much pressure exerted by his/her opponent.

While technically it is force against force (denotation), it isn't primarily muscular force against force (connotation). I strongly agree with the spirit of your point, and indeed the proponent should feel relatively little impact, while the opponent rightly feels a significant one.

I concur with the relevance of the 5 checkpoints listed by atleastiamnotyou and John. But then of course I would, LOL@myself.

Regards,
- kj

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix
Structure is a jumping stone state..
Silk floating in the air is just begining to awake.......

Springy means certain purposely tensing.
Rooted means tensing in the legs.


sure you can use muscles to freeze a springy structure, but that is a soft spring and can still be collapsed by force.

a better spring is one that the more you press on it, the more uprooted you become. It feels like your force has gone no where and has no effect while he/she is just smiling at you.


Somewhere in the back of my mind there is a voice saying root and stance are just convenient terms, they don't really exist. But that takes a paradigm shift to happen :p

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yylee





Somewhere in the back of my mind there is a voice saying root and stance are just convenient terms, they don't really exist. But that takes a paradigm shift to happen :p


buy a pair of new with extra cusion running NIKE shoe. everytime you walk a step you rooted and unrooted. you can feel that free and slight bouncy feeling.

But if you read Robert Chu's work and carry all what he says like carrying a boat after cross the river, then you are in trouble.
Why carry the boat which add to your own in convernient.

Same with all those Kim Sat, sinking elbow.......

Buy a pair of new extra cussion running Nike shoe today. and learn rooting and body structure there dynamically.

Remember the bird has to dip alittle before take off? just that a little. But then ha ha haha, if you always pay attention to that dip you will not walk right but acting and excessive in motion.


Those who belive in rigid formular and time and spare... never understand the nature and dynamic. even time is non linear and relative..... So for them life is life, nature is nature, wing chun is wing chun, shao lin is shao lin, emei is emei, white crane is white crane. Do we care for all those label? Buying Nike or Adidas?
paradigm shift? some one has to awake in stead of being silly.

PS:
It doesn't matter You are buying NIke or Adidas. But it is matter to know what to look for. But then I can not walk for you even If i have mind seal from DAMO of Chan, not to mention all the misleading teaching which has no substance.


So, let got the limit thought and return to the true emptiness.
experience the walking with a pair of new extra cussion Nike.
Then, one begins to know structure by nature.

Belief it or not. Forgot about yik kam or Shao LIn or emei or white crane. the final analysis is Got Experience (milk) and where is the art (beef). But then we are talking about different things. or needs to be fullfill.

http://www.mrdowling.com/602-maslow.html

we can't blame some looking for safety and esteem while some talking about self actualization.

All is about structure. only in different paradigm.

very thing is ok.

[yylee]

I have a pair of Nike air already, after a few days of walking it feels normal. But I know what you mean.

>>Remember the bird has to dip alittle before take off? just that a little. But then ha ha haha, if you always pay attention to that dip you will not walk right but acting and excessive in motion.

That's to say if we want to "make" a good stance, the stance will become rigid the harder we try, isn't it?

We have a saying that the legs are just there to prevent the body from dropping to the floor, but that doesn't mean we press hard or hold it rigidly against the floor. The dynamics of the spine and the legs help maintain the balance.

Need to watch my 1 year old daughter's walking more closely, she is really not tense on her legs. Need to be soft like babies' limbs.....

[desertwingchun2]

" ...While wealthy or celebrated people might reach self-actualization, many psychologists believe that most people who have reached the highest level of happiness are unknown beyond their circle of family and friends." from
http://www.mrdowling.com/602-maslow.html

Apropos for the ancestors. :D

Those who belive in rigid formular and time and spare... never understand the nature and dynamic. even time is non linear and relative..... Hendrick

*it's believe, formula, space, non-linear .... but I digress

Hendrick can speak on others understandings when his own are deficient ??? When you're not quoting other people's knowledge from books, your own or lack there of shines through like beautiful springtime.

some one has to awake in stead of being silly. - Hendrick

Ahh ... self-awareness

-David

[TjD]

for me, good structure boils down to how doing something feels.

i was lucky enough to have a sifu who would go over just bong/tan/fook with me for hours, just so i could get it right. who would break down dan chi sau/chi sau into its smallest bits and get us to find what structure really was:

bong sau - no good!
bong sau - no good! try this!
bong sau - no good! try again!
bong sau - better! try again!
bong sau - better! try again
bong sau - nope!
bong sau - good!

and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on :D

what this left me with was a good general feeling of what "structure" is. sure you can describe in in terms of bones and tendons and such, but once you got the feeling thats the best way to make sure you always have structure.

with a bong/fook structure feels like my body/core is effortlessly immoveable/unstoppable and my bong/fook effortlessly redirects/jams (bong) or absorbs/redirects (fook).

wtih a tan sau structure my body and tan sau feel effortlessly immoveable and unstoppable.

when practicing wing chun, i try to make sure i always have this feeling of structure.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by desertwingchun2
[I]" Hendrick can speak on others understandings when his own are deficient ???
-David


I have never claim to be know it all and perfect.
but, how much do you know about me? :D

I am curious on how much your structure can against grapper or the low round horse kicks of Mua thai or Kyokushin in your opinion?







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