The One Inch Punch

[Daredevil]

Heya,

Just curious about the one inch punch of Wing Chun. It seems that many of the folks that know it consider it a trick of sorts and not readily appliable to combat? Is my impression wrong?

I'm asking out of curiosity as I'm a Baji exponent and we train towards every single one of our strikes being done with inch power. The Baji approach to combat revolves around the concept.

Any comments welcome.

[sel]

it's my understanding that the one inch punch is practised in order to be able to do powerful strikes from a short distance.

when people demonstrate one inch punch it's usually on a stationary person. which may be why it is thought not to be applicable in a real situation. but the fact that you can strike with full force from a short distance is applicable in a real situation, the generation of full force at close range can be applied to any strike, not only the punch. in wing chun we do train to maximise the power of any strike from a short distance. even successive strikes should be equally as powerful as the first.

it has been explained to me that when demonstrating the one inch punch, the force is more spread out over the surface of the target in order to lift the target up and repel the target backwards, if it was applied correctly, the target would fall straight down because the force would penetrate the surface and explode inside (probably exploding several major organs and causing death). this may be why it is thought of as a trick, because done in this way it is a trick (albiet a very powerful and impressive one!!).

[fa_jing]

"if it was applied correctly, the target would fall straight down because the force would penetrate the surface and explode inside (probably exploding several major organs and causing death)."

Well I can't prove you're wrong, but I don't believe that for a second. Especially since:

1. it's a 1-inch punch

2. Wing Chun doesn't have any unusual methods of power generation.

[sel]

1. meaning?
2. not sure what you mean by this either!

discuss further? sorry, i don't really understand what you are trying to say.

[TjD]

Originally posted by Daredevil
Heya,

Just curious about the one inch punch of Wing Chun. It seems that many of the folks that know it consider it a trick of sorts and not readily appliable to combat? Is my impression wrong?

I'm asking out of curiosity as I'm a Baji exponent and we train towards every single one of our strikes being done with inch power. The Baji approach to combat revolves around the concept.

Any comments welcome.


its definately not a trick. wing chun is just like baji in that every strike should be a 1 inch "punch." the curriculum in wing chun revolves around it, as does combat.

in my opinion:

1. wing chun trains chi sau, you learn to get your hand/elbow to the opponent. later it trains chi gerk and you learn to get your foot/knee to the opponent. you make sure you have good lineup so you can release a little of your inch power (just enough to know your shot is good and you could release all of it, not enough to hurt too badly, or cause serious damage).

2. wing chun trains the wooden dummy, once learned properly and practiced enough, everything involves the full co-ordination of the body, even strike involves maximum power generation (inch power).

when you add 1 and 2 together, you have the means of getting your weapons to the opponent, then the means of unleashing all your power. not that bad of an idea, if you don't want to go around killing your training partners :D add in sparring and work on entering and you have a **** effective system.


there is nothing special or magical about the "one inch punch," ie wing chuns power generation. it's purely heavily refined body mechanics. with proper relaxation and proper use of bone structure and timing it shows up.

[fa_jing]

Sorry, to clarify:

1. 1-inch punch is not the most powerful WC punch, at best it would be equal to the power of a regular punch

2. This talk of exploding internal organs seems a bit farfetched, especially considering that it is a single punch and the recipient should be prepared in advance, whether it's demonstration or a fight. I know Harry Houdini had his liver ruptured or something when he took a shot unprepared from a boxer, so yes it's possible, but I don't think it would occur under normal circumstances.


What do you mean by spreading the force out over the surface? What is happening mechanically that causes this to occur, rather than the penetrating force that you referred to?

[Zhuge Liang]

Originally posted by fa_jing
1. 1-inch punch is not the most powerful WC punch, at best it would be equal to the power of a regular punch

Maybe, maybe not, but that's beside the point. It's not a matter of power. It's a matter of the focus of that power and timing.



2. This talk of exploding internal organs seems a bit farfetched, especially considering that it is a single punch and the recipient should be prepared in advance, whether it's demonstration or a fight. I know Harry Houdini had his liver ruptured or something when he took a shot unprepared from a boxer, so yes it's possible, but I don't think it would occur under normal circumstances.

But you shouldn't hit someone where they're "prepared" in the first place. It's just a waste of energy. You hit them where they're "open", or where their body is most receptive to your energy. You want to optimize the energy you generate (by focus and timing) and hit the opponent where they are least prepared and most receptive to being hit. You put all this together, and rupturing organs is probably likely.

Well, in theory anyway.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[yuanfen]

Daredevil- wing chun is as short power oriented as any.
Actually emitting explosive power at even zero inch - with almost any contact point is a worthwhile goal.
It takes time to develop it. For demonstration- it has to be
pushing power for people to see. Real explosive power is to be felt by the recipient.
I dont think fajing understands wing chun fajing.

[fa_jing]

Really? why can't you or anyone else on this board who holds a similar opinion explain it to me, then? I've been reading the forum for over a year, and never seen anyone say it was anything more than logical mechanics from within the wingchun framework, with which I am already familiar. Why do you say it has to be felt? I've felt a powerful punch, and it may not have been from 1 or zero inches, but I have no doubt that it would cause serious damage, if I was unprepared. I am accepting that up to the same amount force could be generated from 1 or zero inches. I am not accepting that it is something that will explode the internal organs of a prepared recipient, any more than a western boxer's punch. It is always possible to catch someone when they are breathing in, in any style.

OTOH, I understand your characterization of a push versus explosive power, that makes more sense than "Spreading out the force over the surface," although in reality these may be the same thing.

[Daredevil]

Thanks folks for the interesting answers. Thanks TjD for giving me a fresh look at Chi Sao, how it relates to inch power, and about the meaning of the wooden dummy in the system.

I actually have a little experience with Wing Tsun before I was taken by Bajiquan. I've seen some similarities, though largely I'd say that the two are very distinct systems (the structure is somewhat different, for one basic difference). I liked my time in Wing Tsun, though, but I'm loving what I'm doing now even more (that's just me, though -- I have great respect for WT/WC).

Personally, I think inch power -- whether or not it can "explode" internal organs -- is one of the true gems of kung fu systems.

It seems that people don't often talk about this aspect of WC and I wonder about that. Perhaps there are distinctions in the lineages here? Not trying to stir things up, just wondering out aloud.

[yuanfen]

Daredevil-sez-Personally, I think inch power -- whether or not it can "explode" internal organs -- is one of the true gems of kung fu systems.
-------------------------------
Yes- baji's delivery system is likely to be different. Yes- there are differences in lineages in some wing chun applications. Baji is more of a northern system- me thinks. Anyway good wing chun and good southern mantis as southern systems excel at very close quarters delivery of inch power.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
fajing- unfortunately the forum gets bogged down in the same old same old stuff- currently the HFY noise is a case in point.

First class wing chun power is basically different froma hard western boxers punch- though that can be devastating too.
I would much rather take a western boxer's punch on the sternum than a competent wing chun punch.(or a first class chen taiji palm). A first class kung fu punch shpuld create more "wave"
power than a western boxers punch...though sometimes the latter can approach it (Ali's one time short right on Liston).

[fa_jing]

fair enough as a start, Yuanfen. It would be interesting if someone did a comprehensive physical analysis, maybe with some high-tech equipment. We may see the day. My physics is a bit rusty, but I imagine that the transfer of power does occur as a wave, with the wavelength and amplitude vs. depth being quite different for different fist methods.

[yuanfen]

Right track- fajing - for research.

But in the experiential dimension- the evidence is in for many.
Different waves- different powers.

Even the details of how a fist is made can make a difference in the waves. A western pro boxers hands are wrapped in such a way as to emphasize weight based power rather than wave power.

[wingchunalex]

my experience of the one inch punch is that it is a very real thing. but the important thing about it is not that it is just a exact inch. it more applies to just the importance of developing short power and not having to retract or reposition your hand to have power when going to strike.

[Miles Teg]

Would everone agree that if you can do a 1 inch punch powerfully, then any normal punch (with more distance) would be way more powerful?

[yuanfen]

Miles Teg-

aint necessarily so.

[Miles Teg]

Thats interesting. Im just wondering how people define the mechanics of a 1 inch punch.

Ive always thought of it as an example of good wing chun mechanics combined together to create the maximum amount of power you can generate in as little distance as posible. Good wing chun mechanics being: a good root, whole body oneness, good understanding and use of body mechanics etc.

Those are the same mechanics neccessary for a good normal distance punch. THerefore I would have assumed that if you were given more distance to punch then the punch would be even more devasting.

How do you think of the 1 inch punch? In a fajing type sense? By that I mean a build up and release of energy (at least thats what I thought fajing was).

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
Thats interesting. Im just wondering how people define the mechanics of a 1 inch punch.

Ive always thought of it as an example of good wing chun mechanics combined together to create the maximum amount of power you can generate in as little distance as posible. Good wing chun mechanics being: a good root, whole body oneness, good understanding and use of body mechanics etc.

The devil's in the details.

The following is something Ken Chung said about inch power:

Regarding inch power, what Bruce Lee showed was not inch power. Don't stretch, don't pivot, and don’t reach. These are not inch power. Inch power is natural, minimal movement but substantial. Don't try to be powerful. Don't use upper body energy. It's how rooted you are in movement. Don't swing. Don't wind up and lift the stance. The elbow doesn't go outside the body boundary. It's position, not power. It's how you connect to the person.

I think the last two sentences sum it up.

Regards,

[Daredevil]

I'm answering Miles Teg from my Baji perspective.

I don't think developing inch power will automatically make your standard strikes more powerful. The mechanics are different. However, if you train a lot to develop a new mechanical way of punching, you'll be using that way of punching more. The way you punch is transmuted and in that way, yes you're going to be punching better.

That "inch power" -- at least in Baji -- has an infinitesimal point of power release and I think that lenghtening it would slow it down thus lessening the effectiveness of it. There are ways of striking in Baji (and Pigua) where the release of power is longer, so there are exceptions to the rule, but they are slightly different beasts.

That's how I currently see it.

[yuanfen]

Miles Teg:
Good wing chun mechanics being: a good root, whole body oneness, good understanding and use of body mechanics etc.

((there is more- space mangement, timing etc))



How do you think of the 1 inch punch? In a fajing type sense? By that I mean a build up and release of energy (at least thats what I thought fajing was).

((Fajing yes- but mechanics different from taiji- because of stance differences))
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John W. quoting Ken :
It's how rooted you are in movement. Don't swing. Don't wind up and lift the stance. The elbow doesn't go outside the body boundary. It's position, not power. It's how you connect to the person.

((Good points))
--------------------------------------------------------------
Daredevil:
That "inch power" -- at least in Baji -- has an infinitesimal point of power release and I think that lenghtening it would slow it down thus lessening the effectiveness of it.

((Understood- but not just because of speed))))

[Miles Teg]

Great info guys! Thanks

[UltimateFighter]

Originally posted by sel

it has been explained to me that when demonstrating the one inch punch, the force is more spread out over the surface of the target in order to lift the target up and repel the target backwards, if it was applied correctly, the target would fall straight down because the force would penetrate the surface and explode inside (probably exploding several major organs and causing death).

It seems that even now, there still can be be found a few unfortunately misguided people who believe in 'death strikes' and 'deadly power' of martial arts that was believed in the 1970's when Kung fu movies and point Karate were popular.

It really does sadden me to realise that even now, after the evolution of MMA and the 'de-mystifying' of martial arts that the average persons understanding of martial arts is so low and far from the truth.

'Inch power' can be seen as applying a final snap on a punch but the reason it is hard to apply in fights is because specific body positioning is needed to apply it in a demo which is rarely going to occur in combat. I.e: a one inch punch could never be applied at even 30% power if you were on the ground especially on your back, as it could be standing up in a demo with a target standing there. That is why in a practical situation it is not especially useful.

[bob10]

For the record Houdini's liver didn't explode as a result of a boxer's punch. He died from complications from a burst appendix. He had taken a punch to the guts a few days before, but by all accounts that had nothing to do with his death.

I agree with UF, it's amazing that people still believe in this stuff - or maybe it's a sign of the all-pervading influence in the martial arts of film and compute game.

As for which hit you'd rather take - a boxer or an inch-punch - well in a real situation I'd rather face the inch-puncher, at least given all the demos I've seen (and performed) of it.

Oh and possibly the best demo was from that Wing Chun "grandmaster" and Derren Brown......

[yuanfen]

Ultimate Fighter sez:

It seems that even now, there still can be be found a few unfortunately misguided people who believe in 'death strikes'

((Sorry- short power and the mumbo jumbo of death struikes are quite different things))

It really does sadden me to realise that even now, after the evolution of MMA and the 'de-mystifying' of martial arts that the average persons understanding of martial arts is so low and far from the truth.

((Ah! Truth!!))

'Inch power' can be seen as applying a final snap on a punch but the reason it is hard to apply in fights is because specific body positioning is needed to apply it in a demo which is rarely going to occur in combat

((Inch power is not the final snap of a punch))

[fa_jing]

the comparison was, I believe, between a regular WC punch (perhaps with stepping) as opposed to a boxer's punch. Otherwise it's not a fair comparison.

I read a book saying that Houdini was unprepared for the boxer's punch and turned pale when hit, then hardened his stomach and was able to take the next punch. He got sick and died a few days later. I know the details are not clear.

My biggest problem was with the phrase "and probably causing several major organs to explode," which connotes a martial mysticism/fantasy that I feel demeans CMA in the eyes of the world, and leads to students with inflated opinions of their own fighting abilities.

I mean, the 1-inch punch is not a hollow-point bullet.

[[Censored]]

My biggest problem was with the phrase "and probably causing several major organs to explode," which connotes a martial mysticism/fantasy that I feel demeans CMA in the eyes of the world, and leads to students with inflated opinions of their own fighting abilities.

Regarding expert application of short power...Replace "explode" with "rupture", and it's not unreasonable. Replace it with "malfunction", and it's possible to probable. We're talking about flesh and blood, after all.

[sel]

Regarding expert application of short power...Replace "explode" with "rupture", and it's not unreasonable. Replace it with "malfunction", and it's possible to probable. We're talking about flesh and blood, after all.


lol i should have said rupture instead of explode!!

it has to do with focus (someone else mentioned this)... the person demonstrated on holds a thick telephone directory book over the target point. you focus the force into the telephone book and the "wave" that comes out the other side is what propels them back. if there was no protection of the target point, the force would go directly into it and it WOULD cause serious and perhaps fatal damage.
no i don't think it is some magical mystical thing. but i do think to be able to generate so much force and focus it into a target so explosively takes a very long time. A VERY LONG TIME!!
it is true yes, that practicing wing chun you keep improving on the ammount of force you can generate. it never stops, you can always improve. so if you have been practicing for say 10 years, your one inch punch force isn't going to be nearly as powerful as one of someone who has practiced for 40+ years. i was speaking of such an exponent, a 40 years+ master doing the one inch punch.
certainly not myself!! my one inch punch is crap!!!! lol. :(

[endorphin21]

All of the demos I have seen involving the one inch punch were usually ****her away than one inch, usually more like 3-5 inches. Secondly most of them seem to be just a push with a closed fist. It doesn't really impress me to see someone push someone else over. My old instructor "preformed" a one inch punch on me, yeah, there was power with it, no it didn't rupture any organs. But what knocked me back was a push. I think no matter how powerfull your one inch punch is to get the "explosive" power there is always pushing involved, and push is a push whether its with a fist a palm or a toe. So in short I think it is over hyped.

[foolinthedeck]

one inch should be no inch, there is no distance between contact, when you've felt it you know, i've been all tensed up in dual fook sau and had it transfered down both arms, like electricty, comes into my chest, stunned, cant breathe, cant move, after that the next strike would just decimate you... and when i took it my sihing was just being nice and playful lol

[yuanfen]

endorphin21 sez:But what knocked me back was a push. I think no matter how powerfull your one inch punch is to get the "explosive" power there is always pushing involved,
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Always? Not necessarily so.
Demo-ing and doing it are two different things.

[UltimateFighter]

Originally posted by sel


lol i should have said rupture instead of explode!!

it has to do with focus (someone else mentioned this)... the person demonstrated on holds a thick telephone directory book over the target point. you focus the force into the telephone book and the "wave" that comes out the other side is what propels them back. if there was no protection of the target point, the force would go directly into it and it WOULD cause serious and perhaps fatal damage.
no i don't think it is some magical mystical thing. but i do think to be able to generate so much force and focus it into a target so explosively takes a very long time. A VERY LONG TIME!!
it is true yes, that practicing wing chun you keep improving on the ammount of force you can generate. it never stops, you can always improve. so if you have been practicing for say 10 years, your one inch punch force isn't going to be nearly as powerful as one of someone who has practiced for 40+ years. i was speaking of such an exponent, a 40 years+ master doing the one inch punch.
certainly not myself!! my one inch punch is crap!!!! lol. :(


No no no!

It would not "rupture" any organ at all. You are still stuck in myths and fantasy. A one inch punch is very unlikely to cause serious damage to anyone. Maybe wind them, but thats about it. A boxers cross could cause a great deal more damage to the opponent but again, body blows very rarely kill anyone. The human body is much more resiliant than you think, and the majority of martial arts are far less effective in reality than you think, and much too over hyped. In MMA particularly the UFC, many Karate guys came in with their 'deadly strikes' and full thrusting hip punches (which are much more powerful than any inch punch, and easily as powerful as the most powerful wing chun punches). Not only were these strikes hard to connect especially as the fighters were then quickly taken down, but when they did connect they did not have the 'devestating' effect that was anticipated. Reality is always FAR less impressive than the myths, and martial arts is full of them, pervasive even on this board it seems, epsecially some who consistently spew misinformation (yuenfan).

The inch punch demo's are less about a "wave" of force (unless studies have been done on striking methods to confrim this please do not spread jargon without backing it up. Wing Chun punches are not that different from other styles punches, and many styles use a relaxed punching method like that of WC), but more often a 'push' with arm withdrawel from more than an inch, aided by a conveniently placed chair so that the recipient falls over dramatically.

As for ' Masters with 40 year training ' quibble...........Really, if any technique takes that long to master, it is a pointless technique. Martial arts were designed to be 'Mastered' in a far shorter time than this particularly WC, and again it is false stereotypes and myths that any techniques take this long to perform properly.

[foolinthedeck]

ultimatefighter says:


many Karate guys came in with their 'deadly strikes' and full thrusting hip punches (which are much more powerful than any inch punch, and easily as powerful as the most powerful wing chun punches

huh? which style do you do ult? if karate is so much more powerful than wing chun.. then, i cant continue sorry, its too much - i'll leave it to yuanfen if u like.

the thing with on inch punch is that it is no inch, its not really a punch but a transmission of energy (IMO)... if it hits something fluid like water, its nothing.. if it hits something solid it goes RIGHT THRU IT.

that doesnt mean that one inch punch versus tree will liquify the insides of the tree, but it will shake the roots. a tense human is like a tree in that he will be fully shaken, but not like a tree in that humans have squishy bits inside.

when done correctly no inch 'punch' will damage organs.

how do you think that whiplash in a car accident damages the spine so much? nothing 'hit' you, but the sudden motion, the transmission of energy... that is no inch.

[yuanfen]

foolinthedeck sez:

how do you think that whiplash in a car accident damages the spine so much?

((Good example of explosiveness as opposed to pushing))

Someone sez:

Reality is always FAR less impressive than the myths, and martial arts is full of them, pervasive even on this board it seems, epsecially some who consistently spew misinformation (yuenfan).

((Who dat be?))

yuanfen

[saulauchung]

Can I have you opinions as to:

A) The difference (in delivering) between the 1" punch and the three punches found at the end of the SLT?
B) When would the above two punches be used?
C) Can they be used at the same time?

Thanks,

SLC

[AndrewS]

UF,

you're half-right and half-confused.

The mechanics of Wing Chun are significantly different from those of, for instance, boxing, Hung Gar, or Shi-to Ryu. They are shared by certain southern Chinese martial arts.

Power can be evolved from very close and can be a very effective tool, in part because of those different mechanics which, as you point out, do not involve long, difficult to connect movements.

Power can be evolved from very close standing or on the ground and can be very effective in both those situations- for examples, watch Igor Vovchenchyn's fights. He's a threat from anywhere- this is how WT should be.

Making statements like these serves only to show one thing- you've never experienced short power in practical use, much less had its development and use demonstrated to you.

Get out, look around.

Andrew

[foolinthedeck]

saulauchung asked:



A) The difference (in delivering) between the 1" punch and the three punches found at the end of the SLT?
B) When would the above two punches be used?
C) Can they be used at the same time?

a - theres no difference in power. the difference in delivering is just that in delivering. the importance is the connection.

b - to hit your opponent

c - yes. hit him, use no inch power.

[foolinthedeck]

saulauchung asked:



A) The difference (in delivering) between the 1" punch and the three punches found at the end of the SLT?
B) When would the above two punches be used?
C) Can they be used at the same time?

a - theres no difference in power. the difference in delivering is just that in delivering. the importance is the connection.

b - to hit your opponent

c - yes. hit him, use no inch power.

[UltimateFighter]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck


huh? which style do you do ult? if karate is so much more powerful than wing chun.. then, i cant continue sorry, its too much
the thing with on inch punch is that it is no inch, its not really a punch but a transmission of energy (IMO)... if it hits something fluid like water, its nothing.. if it hits something solid it goes RIGHT THRU IT.

that doesnt mean that one inch punch versus tree will liquify the insides of the tree, but it will shake the roots.
when done correctly no inch 'punch' will damage organs.

how do you think that whiplash in a car accident damages the spine so much? nothing 'hit' you, but the sudden motion, the transmission of energy... that is no inch.

I did not suggest that Karate is more powerful than WC. But the most powerful strikes from Karate and most arts are about as powerful as each other and as powerful as WC- what make WC special is the methods of avoiding being hit and neutralising force and not that it has a 'mystical power- punch'. Many arts use a relaxed punching method like WC, it is by no means unique.

No- an inch punch will not 'shake the roots of a tree' (I hope for your sake you were using a HEAVY dose od sarcasm, otherwise I give up all hope on you).

Whiplash is caused by a large body such as a car travelling at speed which suddenly stops and causes any passengers to be thrown forwards whereby the force of movement and sudden shift causes injury. It can be simulated quite easily. For instance, if I wanted to give you a whiplash injury, I could simply pick you up and shake you hard wherby your neck would certainly feel whiplash- certainly much more so than from an inch punch.

Andrews- I have indeed felt 'inch power' and it was impressive but there was nothing mystical about it. It was simply a snap of the wrist and fast arm extension aided by weight transferrence (a falling step). And your point is.........?

It is much harder to apply close range power from the ground- like I said, you get 30% of your standing power max. You are keen to allude to how different WC mechanics are to boxing etc (yet as usual you fail to develop your point as to these mechanics further than this), then you give an example of how, good WT should work- like 'Igor Vovchanichin' on the ground. Well if that is not a contradiction, I don't know what is. The man is a well trained boxer who has adapted his skills to the mat. And no one is more devastating striking from any range, I agree. Maybe then you should stop WT and take up his training methods?

[kj]

Originally posted by UltimateFighter
Andrews- I have indeed felt 'inch power' and it was impressive but there was nothing mystical about it. It was simply a snap of the wrist and fast arm extension aided by weight transferrence (a falling step). And your point is.........?

I have seen and felt what you describe before, and heard it referred to and taught as "inch power." It is indeed impressive. However and IMHO, it pales in comparison to the kind of "no inch power" I am more familiar with, the mechanics of which are entirely different, contradictory even, from those you describe.

I hope you have the chance to feel it someday and compare between these types of so-called "inch power." Both the mechanic and effect are quite different. I've a good sense of the potential it has for causing damage to a person.

I don't believe it is something that can just be "turned on" as easily as the snapping/falling version; rather it something that is incrementally and almost incidentally developed over time, with proper and diligent practice; in our case, practice of Wing Chun, though other arts can accomplish the effect as well.

I realize you were addressing AndrewS, and just offering additional perspective and data point from the peanut gallery, FWIW. No worries if you think I'm crazy too, LOL.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[UltimateFighter]

Originally posted by kj


I have seen and felt what you describe before, and heard it referred to and taught as "inch power." It is indeed impressive. However and IMHO, it pales in comparison to the kind of "no inch power" I am more familiar with, the mechanics of which are entirely different, contradictory even, from those you describe.

I hope you have the chance to feel it someday and compare between these types of so-called "inch power." Both the mechanic and effect are quite different. I've a good sense of the potential it has for causing damage to a person.

I don't believe it is something that can just be "turned on" as easily as the snapping/falling version; rather it something that is incrementally and almost incidentally developed over time, with proper and diligent practice; in our case, practice of Wing Chun, though other arts can accomplish the effect as well.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

The method I was describing is one way to generate "inch power" . I am sure that that the effect can also be achieved without the "falling step". But no, I have never witnessed "no- inch power" and am extremely dubious as to its real existance. It seems a contradiction in terms. Afterall, for ANY energy transference to occure from one target to another thorugh a strike, there must be some distance, if only minute for the energy to travel. It cannot be delivered without movement across some distance. Afterall, humans are not capeable of generating waves of energy from a stationary position or utilising mystical cosmic chi or whatever.... I do not doubt that you have seen some demo's, but I do strongly question wether they were really what you think they were. More likely they were along the same lines of the mechanism I described.

However, I am always open to new ideas and you mention several times this 'entirely different mechanism' of power delivery, though you fail to explain it. Please explain the exact workings of this "mechanic" (no method of force delivery should be too difficult to explain, all are subject to simple laws). I have a feeling that the method you described will ultimately be similar if not exactly the same as the one I described.

[AndrewS]

UF,

hmm, how do you get 'wrist snap' into an elbow, shoulder, knee, or kick?

Short power is nothing mystic, and, again, can be developed using several mechanics- Vovchenchyn uses his and does so very nicely. It works well for him, and is an example of the validity of the strategy.

As I've repeatedly explained, weight transference is only one of the power evolution mechanisms involved in evolving power. The kinetic chain used is similar to that of the deadlift. The body alignment using the ground is fairly specialized among martial arts, with variations among those that use it. You've chimed in on multiple threads where I've discussed this, and clearly haven't paid attention.

Adopt Vovchenchyn's training methods- you mean hard work with partners from different disciplines, cardio, bag work, power and olympic lifting, periodization of training, with cycled progressive resistance? Been doing that for a while. My sifu is the guy with a greco, thai, and boxing background who has been telling his students to bring that work ethic and approach to their WT training for years, as well as to cross-train with members of other disciplines. I've been following that advice from the beginning.

If you'd care for a crude example of 'zero inch power' take a look at the Oly lift called the jerk. A serious Olympic lifter can put their own weight up on their chest, and from zero 'windup' put it over their head with arms relaxed in one phaze of the lift (locking on the end). It's a very nice and simple physical analogy for the short power Kathy is talking about, though the kinetic chain used is different.

UF, if you don't think hitting hard from very close is a developable skill and useful, it's your loss. Is it something mystic- no. Can it be developed early on in your training- yes- earlier than many people think.

After practice a couple of times a week for a few months, get a focus mitt and a partner. Have them hold the mitt on their chest, and practice stepping in with a punch from the back hand with man sao touching the pad, concentrating on keeping your arm relaxed during the punch and on impact. Don't focus on moving the other person. Give each other feedback on when a shot 'goes in' through the pad and makes the holder feel sick and shocked. When this happens regularily, move up to two pads, and start doing sets where you hit with the lead hand from the man sao touching. As that gets good, start to work from other positions and get creative.

Later,

Andrew

[sel]

i'd like to know what is a "falling step"? you've just been hit and you're falling?? lol sorry for the joke, but i haven't heard of that term before, can someone explain what it is? thanks

[yuanfen]

sel- "falling step" is not a wing chun term... more of a western boxing term per Dempsey and some others. Not universal but not uncommon. You act like you are going to step forward- ergo a touch of falling foward and you regain your posture as you move forward.

[sel]

Originally posted by UltimateFighter
As for ' Masters with 40 year training ' quibble...........Really, if any technique takes that long to master, it is a pointless technique. Martial arts were designed to be 'Mastered' in a far shorter time than this particularly WC, and again it is false stereotypes and myths that any techniques take this long to perform properly.

so do you think that even after you have mastered a technique that you cannot improve on it ??

yuanfen, thanks for that! a falling step eh? telegraphing??

[foolinthedeck]

UF wrote:

Whiplash is caused by a large body such as a car travelling at speed which suddenly stops and causes any passengers to be thrown forwards whereby the force of movement and sudden shift causes injury. It can be simulated quite easily. For instance, if I wanted to give you a whiplash injury, I could simply pick you up and shake you hard wherby your neck would certainly feel whiplash- certainly much more so than from an inch punch

hmm, i'm confused. if you accept that whiplash causes injury as described above they why not that WC can do this also? your 'simulation' involves picking me up and shaking me - how is this anything like the action of the care as described above? does it shake after it stops? you said it is the 'sudden shift' which causes injury - this is not a shaking - its a no inch shift.

in case there is any confusion i am talking from the perspective of no inch not one inch.

the tree comment was not sarcasm, but obviously i wasnt talking about a redwood... i mean a tree of equal hieght approx to myself. how do i know? i can feel it, can i prove it? no. but i dont need to justify that.

UF also said:
Afterall, for ANY energy transference to occure from one target to another thorugh a strike, there must be some distance, if only minute for the energy to travel

touch the monitor in front of you. what is the distance between your finger and the screen? if you are touching then there is no distance.

i agree with what KJ said too... are you single KJ? :p

[yuanfen]

sel-
yes. Some follow the falling step model. I don't

foolingthe deck-UF does not seem to know short power. But his cup is full.
Whiplash can also be caused by even a small car from close quarters in the back of yours running into you- the stuff of numerous lawsuits in the US.

[kj]

Originally posted by UltimateFighter
The method I was describing is one way to generate "inch power" . I am sure that that the effect can also be achieved without the "falling step". But no, I have never witnessed "no- inch power" and am extremely dubious as to its real existance.

Can't blame you there. I used to be skeptical about it too. It isn't rocket science, but it also isn't the kind of thing we are accustomed to in everyday movement or application, nor is it intuitive.


It seems a contradiction in terms.

Yes, it does seem that way. It's the difference between contradiction and paradox.


Afterall, for ANY energy transference to occure from one target to another thorugh a strike, there must be some distance, if only minute for the energy to travel. It cannot be delivered without movement across some distance.

There is movement, but don't need to be away from the surface of the opponent's body (thus no inches). Human bodies are both soft and disruptable.



Afterall, humans are not capeable of generating waves of energy from a stationary position or utilising mystical cosmic chi or whatever.... I do not doubt that you have seen some demo's, but I do strongly question wether they were really what you think they were. More likely they were along the same lines of the mechanism I described.


Nope. I realize some people ascribe to that sort of thing; while I remain cautiously open minded, I am an admitted skeptic. The kind of strike I am talking about requires proper training and use of the body, not mystical powers.



However, I am always open to new ideas and you mention several times this 'entirely different mechanism' of power delivery, though you fail to explain it.

Unfortunately, no matter how hard I try, I will fail to explain it in this medium; if it were that easy many of my betters would have done so successfully already. Dialog can help, but understanding and appreciating it is a hands-on, experiential endeavor requiring patience and practice over time. It's also a skill that increases over time, not an instant "turning on" of skill. At least not with most mere mortals I know, LOL. I don't have any illusion of someone reading my penny ante descriptions and then suddenly "getting it."



Please explain the exact workings of this "mechanic" (no method of force delivery should be too difficult to explain, all are subject to simple laws).

Simple laws, but the functioning of the human body even in bio-mechanical terms is a very complex thing. I also lack qualifications in those areas.

Different people, including those in other arts will use somewhat different mechanics (and descriptions) to gain similar effect. The way that I am familiar with relies on such things as:


Properly aligned, stable, relaxed/settled body posture (centered around our 5 basic guidelines "kim sut, lok ma, ting yu, deng tau, mai jahng")
Effective ground connection
Body unity. Knees with elbows, and shoulders with hips and pelvis. (Not twisting of the waist or spine.)
"Mai jahng" (elbow down, settled, and in proper position) and bent (so there is indeed room to travel forward without disturbing one's own body)


Some additional observations:


The fist or palm is "placed" (but never tensely "forced") through and beyond an imaginary pocket. (This target pocket area would be inside of an opponent, sandbag, etc., not on the surface.)
The direct forward movement of the strike can sometimes be accompanied by a slight "dropping." In this case, the commensurate effect on the opponent will also be more "dropping" than of propelling them back and away.
One's own body should not be disturbed during the strike. No twisting, leaning, tensing, lurching, etc.; settling more during a strike would be a better course than these.
A slight "filling in" of the lower back region may occur during the strike.
Some people think and feel as if their posture is being pulled straight in both vertical directions. Others describe the sensation as more of a wave.
The movement of the arm itself, becomes rather like a hydraulic piston, IMHO, with a good solid stance to back it up. It's even easier with a wall behind you, LOL.
The impact is felt primarily by the opponent, not by the deliverer. Aside from the stance and alignment work, to the deliverer, it feels as if they are doing very, very little.
One of our primary ways to develop this type of force is through "light tapping" of the sandbag. This builds the stance, encourages proper posture, stability, and alignments. Over time, as the practitioner improves in alignments and relaxation, the "tapping" results in substantial force transmission into the bag and often into the surrounding structures (e.g., the whole building shakes). There used to be a short clip on the internet of Ken Chung doing this, which you may have seen. I'd link you to it, but unfortunately it appears to be gone now.
This method is indeed highly counter-intuitive, so unfortunately, and much to the disappointment of my own logical leanings, the believing is in the feeling.

I don't offer this with any illusion or concern of convincing; my writing and description would be insufficient even if that was my intent. I am just offering some thoughts and observations based on my experience, FWIW.


I have a feeling that the method you described will ultimately be similar if not exactly the same as the one I described.

I have seen others perform and describe something very similar to what I read in your description. Just a few years ago I saw Francis Fong, and his delivery and description was almost identical to your description. What I am attempting to describe is quite different from that, though I may do a poor job of relaying it. I don't know if it will seem the same or different to you, as I am painfully aware how difficult it is to convey through a medium such as this with any semblance of accuracy.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
i agree with what KJ said too... are you single KJ? :p

Thanks. Nope. ;)
- kj

[UltimateFighter]

KJ,
I am grateful for your attempt to explain the workings of the strike and you have some good points, however what you have described is basically the same as my initail description- a relaxed punch with penetrating power, delivered with bodyweight. There is no mystery, and yes to develop the punch fully takes much practice.

Andrews,
The example of the jerk lift is something totally diffierent. I don't know how you confised it with a supposed "no inch punch". The lift is cause by extension of the major muscles involved in lifting the weight.

As for the technique of punching from a man sau in contact with a focus pad-, that is a technique I have been practicing since almost day one. The distance is not zero. We call it the "3 inch punch". It is the distance of the length of the fingers that the punch travels, which is plenty to generate power, and it is easier than the supposed "one inch punch". Hence if that has been your definition of a "zero inch punch" I suggest you change it. The term zero inch is misleading as, like I alluded to earlier, some distance is always needed, whether you have a gap between yourself and the target, or whether you are already in contact and simply extend past it although this will more often result in a push, unless the strike is very fast and penetrates. This can only be achieved through much hard practice.

[foolinthedeck]

and another thing -

an object or opponent is only as strong as its root.
take a door - its only as strong as the hinges on it.
hit the door really hard, you dont target the hinges, you may break the door but it takes alot of power.

no inch power is a strike which travels thru the door and to the weak spot, the hinges, thus with it you can bust open doors without hurting door itself or hand.

not sure what my point is... i always think of these things and then forget what i'm really saying when i come to write it down..
- oh, just that no inch is not a strike, its connecting with object and transferring energy to the point to be broken be it hinge or person. theres nothing mystical in this, energy can travel thru u body, it can travel thru a weapon, it can travel thru a door.

of course its not EZ

[AndrewS]

UF,

consider the drill progression I mentioned an entry to an idea, now keep working on it, until you can hit with your knuckles resting lightly on the pad without stepping and with either leg forward. This starts to train you to never pull back in order to hit, and makes you work on finer mechanics. The goal is to make everything smaller, much like as you get better you will almost never make a full turn if you're on your game. Eventually kinetic chains get so small it looks like nothing is going on.

The jerk- aside from being a very funny movie- weight at dead stop on the upper chest. Weight gets maximally accelerated with relaxed arms using force from the legs and body until the muscles of the arms contract at lockout to stabilize the weight (different from the mechanics of the punch).

Yeah, this uses nearly every muscle in the body. Get someone who's a competant oly lifter to show you the lift. Play with it. It will make sense.

And yes, I do think this stuff uses muscles.


Andrew

[IRONMONK]

Last year at the GM Leung Ting seminar he did his arm lengthening demonstration he then went on to show the one inch punch(maybe this arm lengthening has something to do with the one inch punch!!).Anyway he went on to explain that it was a demonstration of "long bridge power".He also said that the 3 fook sao you do in the SNT develops the forearm muscle to give that burst of power.And u also should feel tension in the forearm when you do the fook sao's.He has also written this in his SNT book.

I have also read the bui tze book that he has written and he talks alot about the long bridge power i.e to hit without drawing back .There are pictures of him breaking tiles with his fingers with his arms extended.Also mentions that hand wagging movements in bui tze develops this power.

So i think this long bridge power is very useful but it is more of a bui tze mechanic and takes alot of time and practise to develop.

Regards,

faze.

[AndrewS]

Faze,

you're being led down the wrong track. Don't listen to Leung Ting. Watch him. Short power on an elbow or shoulder is not wrist driven, obviously.


Andrew

[Grendel]

Hi KJ,

An excellent insiightful post.

Regards,

G.


Originally posted by kj


Can't blame you there. I used to be skeptical about it too. It isn't rocket science, but it also isn't the kind of thing we are accustomed to in everyday movement or application, nor is it intuitive.



Yes, it does seem that way. It's the difference between contradiction and paradox.



There is movement, but don't need to be away from the surface of the opponent's body (thus no inches). Human bodies are both soft and disruptable.



Nope. I realize some people ascribe to that sort of thing; while I remain cautiously open minded, I am an admitted skeptic. The kind of strike I am talking about requires proper training and use of the body, not mystical powers.



Unfortunately, no matter how hard I try, I will fail to explain it in this medium; if it were that easy many of my betters would have done so successfully already. Dialog can help, but understanding and appreciating it is a hands-on, experiential endeavor requiring patience and practice over time. It's also a skill that increases over time, not an instant "turning on" of skill. At least not with most mere mortals I know, LOL. I don't have any illusion of someone reading my penny ante descriptions and then suddenly "getting it."



Simple laws, but the functioning of the human body even in bio-mechanical terms is a very complex thing. I also lack qualifications in those areas.

Different people, including those in other arts will use somewhat different mechanics (and descriptions) to gain similar effect. The way that I am familiar with relies on such things as:


Properly aligned, stable, relaxed/settled body posture (centered around our 5 basic guidelines "kim sut, lok ma, ting yu, deng tau, mai jahng")
Effective ground connection
Body unity. Knees with elbows, and shoulders with hips and pelvis. (Not twisting of the waist or spine.)
"Mai jahng" (elbow down, settled, and in proper position) and bent (so there is indeed room to travel forward without disturbing one's own body)


Some additional observations:


The fist or palm is "placed" (but never tensely "forced") through and beyond an imaginary pocket. (This target pocket area would be inside of an opponent, sandbag, etc., not on the surface.)
The direct forward movement of the strike can sometimes be accompanied by a slight "dropping." In this case, the commensurate effect on the opponent will also be more "dropping" than of propelling them back and away.
One's own body should not be disturbed during the strike. No twisting, leaning, tensing, lurching, etc.; settling more during a strike would be a better course than these.
A slight "filling in" of the lower back region may occur during the strike.
Some people think and feel as if their posture is being pulled straight in both vertical directions. Others describe the sensation as more of a wave.
The movement of the arm itself, becomes rather like a hydraulic piston, IMHO, with a good solid stance to back it up. It's even easier with a wall behind you, LOL.
The impact is felt primarily by the opponent, not by the deliverer. Aside from the stance and alignment work, to the deliverer, it feels as if they are doing very, very little.
One of our primary ways to develop this type of force is through "light tapping" of the sandbag. This builds the stance, encourages proper posture, stability, and alignments. Over time, as the practitioner improves in alignments and relaxation, the "tapping" results in substantial force transmission into the bag and often into the surrounding structures (e.g., the whole building shakes). There used to be a short clip on the internet of Ken Chung doing this, which you may have seen. I'd link you to it, but unfortunately it appears to be gone now.
This method is indeed highly counter-intuitive, so unfortunately, and much to the disappointment of my own logical leanings, the believing is in the feeling.

I don't offer this with any illusion or concern of convincing; my writing and description would be insufficient even if that was my intent. I am just offering some thoughts and observations based on my experience, FWIW.



I have seen others perform and describe something very similar to what I read in your description. Just a few years ago I saw Francis Fong, and his delivery and description was almost identical to your description. What I am attempting to describe is quite different from that, though I may do a poor job of relaying it. I don't know if it will seem the same or different to you, as I am painfully aware how difficult it is to convey through a medium such as this with any semblance of accuracy.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[saulauchung]

Finally! And it was through Leung Ting, of all people.

I asked 3 questions some time before about the difference between the 1" and the 'normal' straight punch. I had only one response. Finally, Faze quoted Leung Ting mentioning the long bridge power.

Sorry guys and gals, it just shows that although Leung Ting may be this and that, he does appear to know more than you people.

Would I care to elaborate more? No, because I like to keep things to myself.

I apologise if I have offended you.

SLC

[Grendel]

Originally posted by saulauchung
Finally! And it was through Leung Ting, of all people.

I asked 3 questions some time before about the difference between the 1" and the 'normal' straight punch. I had only one response. Finally, Faze quoted Leung Ting mentioning the long bridge power.

Sorry guys and gals, it just shows that although Leung Ting may be this and that, he does appear to know more than you people.

Would I care to elaborate more? No, because I like to keep things to myself.

I apologise if I have offended you.

SLC
Offended? Don't you mean you amused us? :cool:

[sel]

ARM LENGTHENING??????? RAOTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!

don't you mean pushing his shoulder forwards in order to make it appear that his arm is growing longer? arm lengthening...get outta here!!!!! LOL

[AndrewS]

Er Sel, I've held his shoulders while he does that demo. He's not kicking the shoulderblade forward, more like rotating it on the body, while doing some other things.

It's a neat anatomical party trick.

Andrew

[sel]

thanks for that...... can you explain what is the purpose of arm lengthening then? sorry about the LOLing.

[AndrewS]

Sel,

Impress the locals maybe?

I don't think there's much point to 'arm lengthening' as a demo. I do think it reflects some interesting body control, which is a component of good Wing Chun mechanics.

More practically, if you hold one arm out at extension then punch with the other, you should get a couple more inches reach, without letting your shoulder come forward. This sort of arm extension can be useful, as it does some serious stuff to mess with someone's sense of range. This isn't the same as a static demo, though.

Andrew

[sel]

thanks for the explanation. i have a clearer picture now. if applying a punch with this, it doesn't compromise the natural body structure? does it affect generating maximum force? i've tried doing what you suggested, but i guess it takes a lot of practice, cause i don't think i can do it at all!

[IRONMONK]

Hi,

AndrewS . u wrote:
" Short power on an elbow or shoulder is not wrist driven, obviously."


yes i agree u cant use wrist for short range power in shoulder/elbow-so where does the power come from structure,body etc?

regards,

Faze.

[AndrewS]

Faze,

the classic line would be 'every joint in the body'. Personally, I'd say something more like 'any of a number of joints in the body working either in extension or flexion, in a variety of combinations and sequences, while combined with a few ways of manipulating body weight'.

Of course, it's more complicated than that.

The simple explanation is that it comes from the step and turn made very small.

Andrew

[Daredevil]

I'd like to go back to something UltimateFighter said earlier on the thread, about inch power being hard to apply in fighting, I'd beg to differ. Though it requires proper body mechanics, that's why we train. When we have those down, it's only a matter of closing the gap and bringing your guns to bear. You put your hand/fist/whatever on your opponent and when you touch him, you strike. Instant hit. Like I said, it's only a matter of putting your weapons on him.

In my view, there is no difference between inch power and "no-inch" power (it's really not no-inch, because there is movement, it just isn't where you expect it to be). The latter is just a more skilled manifestation of the first.

Just a few thoughts from the Baji perspective.