Leaning? Wing Chun Posture

[John Weiland]

From the "To Be or Not to Be" Thread (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=311139#post311139)


Originally posted by yuanfen
I take it from Joy's comments that it is permissible for him to lean - anyone else in the Augustine Fong/Ho Kam Ming/Ip Man clan happen to agree? Is this standard across all Wing Chun lineages? In what context is leaning permissible?

Jeremy R.

A valid question. I am of Yip Man lineage and find that leaning is always wrong in a Wing Chun sense. In the context of his post, however, Yuanfen was correct as usual in that there are movements such as the "three bows to Buddha" at the end of the Biu Gee set, which can be interpreted as leaning, because, in fact, the movement involves leaning back and bending forward while standing in Yee Gee Kim Yong Mar.

These movements could be interpreted as a structure recovery move or an anti-grappling counter or looking for one's contacts. :D

In contrast to correct execution of the above movements, leaning against an opponent with your own off-center weight is bad for your structure and a skilled opponent will take advantage of it, especially, as I've found, if it's done in the course of stepping. No matter which weight distribution you choose, leaning is a mistake.

The worst offenders are often the more heavily muscled upper body types and heavier individuals in my experience.

Having said all this, leaning away or even leaning on an opponent can be effective. But, if practiced too often becomes merely a predictable bad habit.

Rather than violating one's structure, such as by leaning away from an opponent, Ken Chung advocates just taking it and not making the mistake again that let your opponent in. That's my preference too. :D

Regards,

[TjD]

Originally posted by John Weiland
Rather than violating one's structure, such as by leaning away from an opponent, Ken Chung advocates just taking it and not making the mistake again that let your opponent in. That's my preference too. :D

coming from the ip ching lineage here,

indeed, i'd much rather take a hit than lose my structure.
i'm assuming here that you mean leaning to be taking a posture in which the spine is not perpindicular to the ground (to clarify things). in my experience, this has always been a bad thing.

however, "leaning" forward by shifting the torso forward (as long as theres another one of my legs in front of me) i have had beneficial results.

[yuanfen]

John W sez:
These movements could be interpreted as a structure recovery move or an anti-grappling counter or looking for one's contacts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Correct John- If someone has already got past my initial defenses/attacks
at the lower gates- IMO one can briefly do a wing chun version of sprawling and use/control the other persons structure to regain one's own or to smash him into the ground. It would be an application
of the final sam pai fat.

[canglong]

"there are movements such as the "three bows to Buddha" at the end of the Biu Gee set, which can be interpreted as leaning, because, in fact, the movement involves leaning back and bending forward while standing in Yee Gee Kim Yong Mar." John

Does this "movement" compromise the structural integrity of the horse stance?

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Perhpas the leaning aspect has nothing to do with the leaning your upper body weight on somebody as that is easily taken advantage of. The leaning can be used as a method to regain your strucutre from a bad position or loss of position. The leaning can be used as a last resort to save your butt yet we normally would not do that with forward and backward in Koo Lo WC!

Here is a quote from Leung Jan regarding this from his time in Koo Lo village;

Wan Wun Yiu (Re-Birth Of Your Soul (aka; Life After Death)) will rescue you from danger!


Its sort of a last resort type of skill that involves taking you from a disaster of a situation and making the best of the situation to regain! In Koo Lo WC this is the last skill taught before the close body methods of Fook Fu are introduced!


Regards,

[yuanfen]

Canglog asks about the "three prayers to the Buddha"-
Does this "movement" compromise the structural integrity of the horse stance?
------------------------------------------------------------------
Answer ; no. (when done right)- the last is not a snide comment- just the truth.

[Grendel]

Hi Jim,


Originally posted by Jim Roselando

Perhpas the leaning aspect has nothing to do with the leaning your upper body weight on somebody as that is easily taken advantage of. The leaning can be used as a method to regain your strucutre from a bad position or loss of position. The leaning can be used as a last resort to save your butt yet we normally would not do that with forward and backward in Koo Lo WC!

I agree with the statement that leaning is always wrong in Wing Chun. For example, Biu Gee is the "Oh, ****" form in which we learn to recover our Wing Chun structure, not violate it. Good Wing Chun beats bad Wing Chun, that's all.

But, **** happens. And, we occasionally need to recover our position. Before we can defend ourselves and attack, we must have our structure intact. Show me a leaner, and I'll show you a person who doesn't understand Wing Chun principles.


Here is a quote from Leung Jan regarding this from his time in Koo Lo village;

Wan Wun Yiu (Re-Birth Of Your Soul (aka; Life After Death)) will rescue you from danger!

Its sort of a last resort type of skill that involves taking you from a disaster of a situation and making the best of the situation to regain! In Koo Lo WC this is the last skill taught before the close body methods of Fook Fu are introduced!

Sounds similar to what I've noted above, but I'm unfamiliar with any of the proper nouns you cite.

Regards,

[canglong]

Well if the answer is no, the 3 bows to Buddha do not compromise the structure of your stance then wouldn't the correct term only be bending and not leaning?

[Phenix]

what is the structure of flowing water?

Standing like a pice of wood with Shao Lin or Emei label cannot become flowing water. That is for sure. Not to mention, all the fomulars... formulars are fomulars.... flowing water keep flow once return to nature... But first has to have the structure of water. ....

Water has structure?
One can create 100000 names and modification of SLT but can't teach a water structure if one have never seen one before. IMHO



What has diviate from the Qi or Ren and Du medirian? what has diviate from Open Close Sinking and Rising --- the four cycle of WCK? similar to four seasons of a year... there are core DNA deeper then posture.... the current which flows under....
See, questioning the 12 zhuang stanza.... on forward ... bent... shows some's un aware of the current under... how can that be oldest?

Shape is just surface... what is under that surface? Emei of Shao lIn will shown when the investigation go deeper and deeper. what is the technology?

Ofcouse, just my opinion and thoughts...

[John Weiland]

Hi Hendrik,

Originally posted by Phenix
what is the structure of flowing water?

Standing like a pice of wood with Shao Lin or Emei label cannot become flowing water. That is for sure. Not to mention, all the fomulars... formulars are fomulars.... flowing water keep flow once return to nature... But first has to have the structure of water. ....

Water has structure?
One can create 100000 names and modification of SLT but can't teach a water structure if one have never seen one before. IMHO

What has diviate from the Qi or Ren and Du medirian? what has diviate from Open Close Sinking and Rising --- the four cycle of WCK? similar to four seasons of a year... there are core DNA deeper then posture.... the current which flows under....
See, questioning the 12 zhuang stanza

The water metaphor is classic kuen kuit, but could you explain "the 12 zhuang stanza."


.... on forward ... bent... shows some's un aware of the current under... how can that be oldest?

Shape is just surface... what is under that surface? Emei of Shao lIn will shown when the investigation go deeper and deeper. what is the technology?

Ofcouse, just my opinion and thoughts...
Good points. And good food for thought. I had not considered the problem in those terms.

Thanks,