When McDojos strike back.

[rogue]

So much for BULLSHIDO. (http://www.bullshido.us/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3087&FORUM_ID=2&CAT_ID=8&Topic_Title=Retraction&Forum_Title=General+Discussion)

Official site of the winners. (http://www.ussd.com/default.asp)

[joedoe]

Anyone had any experience with USSD?

[Oso]

no, but I think it's interesting that cutting and pasting an image from a website to a public forum is copywright infringement.

sounds like a case of deeper pockets winning out-of-court by threatening a lawsuit. AND defamation and libel:confused:

I guess we should be more carefull in our comments on mcdojo's:rolleyes:


anyone on here a lawyer??

rogue, did you see the alleged post?

I'm assuming the poster was flaming the school and showed a picture.

Gene, what would you do if someone posted a pic of a piece of gear on say, Dragon's List, and said they had bought it and it was a piece of junk? And then proceeded to say that no one should ever buy anything from Martial Arts Mart.

[Oso]

the quote below is an excerpt from this page

http://www.ussd.com/xpage/xpage.asp?p=shaolintemple2001pg5



At the conclusion of the dinner, Grandmaster Mattera received a very special gift. The Head Abbot of the Shaolin Temple bestowed upon him the most sacred documents. The ancient fighting secrets of Shaolin.

I wonder what that means.

[David]

lol

[dezhen2001]

LMAO! remember when phrost came on here dissing kung fu and all that? :D

As for USSD :eek:

dawood

[rogue]

At the conclusion of the dinner, Grandmaster Mattera received a very special gift. The Head Abbot of the Shaolin Temple bestowed upon him the most sacred documents. The ancient fighting secrets of Shaolin. You think it was over who was supposed to leave the tip?:D

[Oso]

now, fellas...I am truly curious. These aren't the people trying to patent "Shoalin" are they?

What if he does have the secrets?

I think I'd have to move and begin learning from the only people that have those true secrets.

I mean...golly, that's pretty special.

[Waidan]

What sort of world are we living in where a man can't talk a little trash on one of the true king-hell McDojos? I don't know just what was posted, but we've got more USSD studios than 7-11's here, and the 7-11 clerks are more accomplished fighters.

[rubthebuddha]

Originally posted by Waidan
What sort of world are we living in where a man can't talk a little trash on one of the true king-hell McDojos? I don't know just what was posted, but we've got more USSD studios than 7-11's here, and the 7-11 clerks are more accomplished fighters.
but it's pretty much a toss-up on who has the prettier uniforms, no?

[ewallace]

What uniforms? Could you post a picture of them? ;)

[Oso]

http://www.ussd.com/xpage/xpage.asp?p=shaolintemple2001pg2


I really like the saffron gi tops. They are very nice to look at.

[ewallace]

You should know better Oso. Don't be suprised if KFO goes into litigation.

[cho]

if you can't beat 'em, sue 'em.

[KC Elbows]

As far as using copyrighted images, and anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but you are within fair use to use them for discussion purposes, and, in fact, if you crop them or otherwise not use the entire image for what you are doing, the person who has the copyright has actually smaller chances to file a claim, in practice.

However, this is all meaningless if the person who holds the copyright has enough money to tie you up in court, right or wrong. In that case, they can drive you to the poor house, or you can settle. Or, you can be prepared, and have adequate legal protection to not make it worth their time. Which takes some money.

[norther practitioner]

USSD produces some decent MA.... and some not so good "Shaolin" MA.

[Oso]

now, now... all I have done is post links to their site, express curiosity and admire their gi's. They get full credit for their site. Matter of fact, I should get some kickbacks for promoting them.

We all should. Look how much we have increased awareness of USSD.

AFAIK, all you have to do is give credit to the source as long as you are not making money off of whatever you are using their picture or information for.

Libel is another matter.

http://www.ldrc.com/LDRC_Info/libelfaqs.html

Libel and slander are legal claims for false statements of fact about a person that are printed, broadcast, spoken or otherwise communicated to others. Libel refers to statements in written or other permanent form, while slander refers to verbal statements and gestures. The term defamation encompasses both libel and slander.



so, it seems that you can express opinion and be ok.

so, FOR EXAMPLE ONLY

I think USSD is cruddy martial arts.

OK.

USSD is cruddy martial arts.

NOT OK.

THE ABOVE STATEMENTS REFERRING TO USSD ARE FOR DEMONSTRATION PURPOSES ONLY.


I would still bet that no legal action occured. Just a phone call from USSD's lawyers and bullshido capitulated because USSD obviously had deep enough pockets to take it to court. Not having read what was said we don't know if it was libel and w/o a court case we don't know if it actually defamed them.

[Oso]

The primary defenses to a defamation claim are that the statements are true, are statements of opinion or otherwise not statements of fact, or are privileged. Truth and opinion are complete defenses to a defamation claim. In addition, some defamatory statements may be protected by privilege, meaning that in certain circumstances the interest in communicating a statement outweighs the interest in protecting reputation. For example, many jurisdictions recognize a privilege for media reports of government and judicial proceedings, and for reports of misconduct to the proper authorities.

[Oso]

just reread bullshido's statement. All they talked about was being contacted by attorney's. So, no actual court case but the threat of one. I think a DA or judge would have thrown it out. Sounds like Phrost needed to have consulted his own attorney's, if he has any. Definitely sounds like a scare tactic. I wonder if a public forum falls under free speech.

[African Tiger]

that color isn't Saffron, it's MUSTARD!

Get it straight or they'll sue all of us!

And since when does a Martial Arts school need to be incorporated? Sounds to me like the Grandmaster is more of a businessman than an instructor....;)

[Oso]

hmmm....I am of the opinion it is saffron and you are of the opinion it's mustard.;)



I would tend to agree with incorporating as a ma school. The liability IS pretty high and there is some separation between the assets. Though someone could sue you personally as well.

[joedoe]

Our school is incorporated. As pointed out, it is important to separate liabilities. In Australia there are also some tax tricks you can pull as a company. All in all it is not a bad thing to do.

[rogue]

Running a martial arts school is a business. I've grown used to the fact that even the better schools offer kardio kick boxing and kids programs to support the small group of serious students.

Now I wonder if Phrosts site had a different name than Bullshido or McDojo would USSD have even noticed or cared. But one of USSD competitors saw an opportunity put a bad vibe on them, on a board that intentionally looks for the negative in the arts and took it.

[KC Elbows]

Frankly, I think that most starting martial artists are clueless about the shortcomings of their schools, and I see nothing wrong with bringing out those shortcomings and making it harder for fraudulent schools to exist. Others consider it part of 'the tradition', but I think debunking has a tradition all its own, that's just as valid.

Most of the members of bullshido.com who actually contribute are fairly conscientious about which schools they question, and have a good record for fair treatment. A few others cause problems, but, as an admin there, I can tell you that for every member who makes a bad call, I get 10 PM's clearly from dishonest school owners making veiled threats to me and the other moderators. Unfortunately, they're not the ones who get sued, because regular folk can't afford to sue them. However, they have no such limitation, as they most likely overcharge their students, have manipulative company structures designed to prevent their instructors from being able to have a career away from their organization, and in general, are exactly the sort of wanks they portray themselves as being in private messages. I see no point in allowing them to get away with it. I also don't see that as 'focusing on the negative'.

[Royal Dragon]

Question,
How would someone like........say me, who wishes to open a school that specialises general public programs geard towards local point sparring circutes be viewed?

Obviously, I know certian individuals on this forum will frown on what I want to do, but if I do it I'll be free to train all day if I want, and in the end I will have better Kung Fu than many can dream of because of it.

What in your mind would seperate me from all the other Mc Dojo's out there, and keep it honest?

[Oso]

KC,

Was there actually a court case or just the threat of one?

Do you think that libel was actually commited or was the guy just mouthing off? I'm curious.

[scotty1]

"We are honestly humbled by the depth of Mr. Mattera’s knowledge and experience."

Heh!

[KC Elbows]

RD,
IMO, there's nothing wrong with having schools that are about point sparring and what have you, it's when claims are made that they are anything but that there's a problem. That's my opinion.

Oso,
I'm really not comfortable discussing Phrost's business that way, especially since I'm an admin there, and I wouldn't want to complicate things for the guy. Also, I don't really know many of the details. IMO, the whole thing was waaaay overblown. I've seen other schools have reps come on bullshido.com and counter accusations effectively, and gain respect that way. I generally do not respect people and groups who use the courts frivolously, but I don't know that that was the case here. My opinion is that communication would have gone a lot further than litigation, considering that the forced apologies don't make anyone believe that respect is suddenly there, as can be judged from Scotty's post above. That's my opinion and nothing more, as I have not asked Phrost's opinion on the subject, or for further details, because I don't want to cause him any more trouble. Of course, some members have an axe to grind, I guess. Sad really, Phrost's a great guy, and is a regular guy who loves martial arts, and speaks as that, not as a member of any association. More than that, I'm not saying.

Essentially, the mood on bullshido.com appears to be that no one will say anything negative about USSD, or anything at all, to be honest, and the absence of that discussion will probably be conspicuous, so that USSD is in the same boat as before. If that does not phase USSD, having an unspoken concern about their school that manifests in a disdainful silence regarding themselves whenever a newbie brings them up, in my opinion a likely response, then exactly how did they establish that it affected them worse having a spoken debate regarding their virtues and vices that they could, presumably, counter? I just feel that the decision to litigate was not a good one on their part. I myself know very little about those schools, and have not taken part in the discussion of them. All I know is that they took the legal approach with someone who, in my opinion, they could have communicated with. That's the sum total of my knowledge of USSD. I have no serious interest in further research, so until a member actually acts outside of that preconception, that's my opinion, because I don't have time for them. I think it would be handy if one of their members actually came on bullshido and, instead of lecturing the tiny number of members who actually had anything to do with the 'incident', COMMUNICATED with the rest of the good members for a change. They might find that there's enough moderates on the forum who understand that just because one has certain money making fixtures in their school doesn't mean that there's no serious martial arts going on.

I might also point out that this thread, IMO, is about as inocuous as some of the stuff that was said about USSD on bullshido.com.

[Oso]

Thanks, KC. I understand your position. I'll probably join bullshido and see what I can see. I certainly feel that litigation was a silly, bit chy way to deal with it.

[Dark Knight]

I know both Charlie and Steve from waaay back. The first time I met Steve he was a 4th degree under Villari teaching in New Hampshire. Charlie was also from Villaris.

They dont hide their past (dont discuss it) but both are exceptional fighters (At least back then) Steves top students were always very capable fighters, well trained and trained hard with lot of contact.

As far as the rest of the schools and instructors go... The bigger you get the more watered down you will get. I am sure there are some that are good, but you lso have the bad, and they make the rest look bad.

USSD is a business, and ran as such. The schools teach the material (Of course its not Shaolin, the Katas and Pinions are Karate forms) but its taught in a manner so that it makes a school profitable.

Is it good martial arts? That you can debate like any style, but Billy Blanks turned one into Tae bo. You can teach it effectivly or not.

We all know that its not the system but the instructor.

Steve changed everything from 4th degree up from what Villari taught. I know he has spent a lot of time learning Kung Fu, but I dont know what he teaches to his lower ranks since I havent seen him since 1987.

[Oso]

Dark Knight, just to clarify, I'm really just curious about the legal aspect of their claim that they were libeled.

[Dark Knight]

Villari called it Shaolin Kempo Karate.
A little logic tells you its not a traditional system when you combine the name Shaolin with Karate.

I was reading on one of USSD's school sites that They dont know where villari got the idea of saying he teaches Shaolin, befause non of the forms are Shaolin.

Again, its pretty obvious that Steve and Charlie have ties and are doing Shaolin. But I dont know where they added that to the system, I havent been around them since they broke off.

But the base sytem up to at least 1st (I'm pretty sure up to 4th) degree is still the same as Villari's.

[Dark Knight]

Dark Knight, just to clarify, I'm really just curious about the legal aspect of their claim that they were libeled.
"

I just heasrd about it, I dont know the whole story.

[Phrost]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
LMAO! remember when phrost came on here dissing kung fu and all that? :D

dawood

You remember that? Because I sure don't.

It would seem fairly idiotic of me to do so considering 70% of my martial arts background is in Chinese martial arts, aka. "Kung Fu".

Actually, I think I only mentioned that SOME KF instructors teach impractical things, and do not focus on defense against grappling.

I've never been one to throw the baby out with the bathwater, especailly when it would be at a detrament to my own experience. Such a claim would be like accusing me of hating Chinese food because I don't like Mu Shu chicken.

Regardless, since I care enough about the martial arts community to put my own a$s on the line, legally and financially, in order to help improve it, I'll briefly go into the situation so everyone can understand.

The entire situation was a collossal misunderstanding, and chain of bad decisions, poor advice, and confusion.

Everything I stated in my retraction was true. I've never had any beef with the USSD. Heck, until recently, I didn't even know anything about them. Even if I held an opinion on them, it wouldn't have been expressed on Bullshido.

However, a few posts were made by a visitor to which the USSD took offense. At the time, my understanding of libel and slander laws was not what it is now, and I did not immedately remove the posts as a result of this.

Also, it turned out that the person who made the posts was himself an instructor, and competetor of a USSD school in his area. This I had no knowledge of, and again, commented on in the retraction.

At the time the suit was filed, we were still McDojo.com. It turned out, that the poster's last name, just happened to be McDonald, which then implied that our site was in collusion with the poster, if not directly supporting his statements; an unfortunate coincidence.

Along the way I was given bad legal advice on a few fronts, although a director at Stanford's law school was very helpful in educating me on several aspects of the case.

Essentially, the USSD and I resolved our differences amicably. I've even offered to interview Mr. Mattera for the site. I don't have any negative feelings toward him, personally either. My retraction, above all, really is a sincere apology for allowing our site to be used for unfair business practices. I've officially stated that using my website to slander a competitor will not be tolerated.

We've since tightened our reigns a bit on people stating opinions as facts, and using copywritten materials without permission, and that's pretty much it.

By the way, I haven't posted in a while, but I stop by every now and then to read some of the threads. I'd like to re-invite all of you to express your opinions on the subjects we discuss over at Bullshido.com. Those of you that stopped in almost a year ago would probably be pretty surprised at how the community has evolved. It's much closer now to what I envisioned it being: truely representative of the feelings of the martial arts community. If you do not feel this is the case, you've got that much more of a reason to stop by and express them.

[Oso]

Phrost,

So, a suit was filed? I guess by your statements your legal counsel eventually decided that USSD would have a case.
I guess the collusion bit was the kicker.

thanks for taking the time respond and clarify.

[Phrost]

Actually, the last lawyer I worked with thought differently, but at the tune of 5 figures. I resolved the situation with them myself.

By the way Oso, I sent you a PM over at Bullshido.

[rogue]

Hey Phrost,

Why not give your definition of a McDojo over here? I honestly think that posted guidelines would make things easier on you and may make your site more effective.

[Guile]

Good to hear you worked it out Phrost

[Phrost]

Since we're carrying the conversation over two different forums, I'll paraphrase my response to you from over at Bullshido, for the benefit of those here who haven't been following.

I simply can't define the term without compromising my objectivity. People have differing opinions on what constitutes legitimacy, and an honest consensus is what we're trying to achieve.

I am not the martial arts community; I cannot set standards for it, and my personal feelings can't be used to sway opinion.

If you want me to personally tell people what they should think, or what standards they should have, then I'm sorry, but that's not something I want Bullshido to be used for.

However, if YOU have an opinion on what a McDojo is, write an article, and give us YOUR definition. As with everything else on the site, it'll be open for discussion by the community.'

That's just how we work over there.