Can't we all Just get along?

[reemul]

Another chance to voice your opinion.

Should Reemul and The Willow Sword persue this challenge.

Now don't get your hopes up. It's clear I know how to push Willow's buttons, however I don't control his actions and if he brings it, it will happen regardless of the outcome of this pole.

[joedoe]

Do what you want. Let us know how it goes.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

[dunbarj01]

The recent explosion of reality TV has left me with a baseless blood lust and a strange desire to see people humiliated. So gentlemen, if you please...

[Fish of Fury]

LOL Vlad
i'm still chuckling away :)

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

[The Willow Sword]

some shhhickon fryin. now reemul honey are we trying to sly away from this? guess what not gonna happen here,,,,,,tell ya what reemul,,go down to the SD center on rutland on sunday and attend the basic skills class that master JOe runs,,if you survive it,,,then he will let you spar atthe end of the class,,as they all do there after the workout. and tell him who you are,,,,nothing bad will happen to you i promise. Master Joe knows of this now. buthe advises me to not waste my enrgy on you BUT,,,,I am still going to make due with the challenge. i hope this poll is not a psychological attempt to ***** out of this.
Many respects, willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

[reemul]

I've already stated that if the challenge comes it will be answered. As for checking out the SD class of wussies forget about it. I've watched Shaolin do classes and have yet to be impressed.

Don't worry, if you bring the challenge I'll be there. I think perhaps Joe was perhaps trying to spare you some humiliation when he said don't waste your energy.

I'm sure the forum members would be interrested in what a SD workout consist of.

[Ish]

yeaa i would like to know what an sd workout consists of. I also think if you guys do fight someone should video it

[BeiKongHui]

Ha, Willow Sword is a comedian now, too!
or rather

Ha,,Willow Sword is a comedian now,,too!

Hey, Willow, use that "Short Kata" #11 on him or "Sparring Technique" #10. Reemul will die from laughter.

"To the extreme!"
--Poochie

[Anarcho]

You must fight. If only for the cookies, you must fight.

[UberShaman]

I was hoping willow sword was going to use the golden cockroach form

[The Willow Sword]

Around the fried chicken eh?
ISH: the workouts are intense,,the basic skills class that i invited reemul to go to mainly consist of cardio,calisthenics,and power training.
alot of bag work. reemul probably could not handle the class,,but it is still there for him should he wish to go.

Anarcho: man i love cookies: coconut toffee have become my favorites this month,,we gotta place here in Taos that makes em. MMm MMm good! :D

Ubershaman: :rolleyes:

BKH: :p wouldnt you really like to know how sparring technique 10 is applied. if you are smart(snicker snicker) you would figure out what follows after it is applied.

Reemul: as always and as ever :rolleyes:
Many respects, Willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

[BeiKongHui]

I broke the ribs of the last geek that tried it on me too and he was a 3rd degree SD "black belt".
Why don't you describe the two techniques I named in my earlier posts for everyone here? We could all use a good laugh. Shaolin Do techniques only work on people who stay in the same spot during the fight. I'm sure Reemul will just stand there and watch you heft your big butt up into the air in hopes of coming down on him with a karate chop.


"To the extreme!"
--Poochie

[reemul]

If you tired of smelling chicken and the flies are annoying, tell your Mom to pull up her pants.

The thing is Willow, I actually have some knowledge of SD, you however have absolutely know idea what kind of conditioning I do or any knowledge of our system what so ever. So bring it.

[UberShaman]

I think the fly's are gathering around the shaolin-doo

[The Willow Sword]

Just keep on barking. I seriously Doubt that REEMul will ever show up to meet the challenge,,with a comment like he just made about my mother i would guess that he is in fact a 16 yr old who couldnt fight his way out of a paper bag. and as for BKH breaking THE RIBS OF some 3rd degree BB SD person. what school ? what was his name? where did you spar him at? what a crock BKH you are about as inept as REEMul is. i wish time would speed up.
as far as the short kata 11 is concerned,,if anyone has tried to do this in a fight they are missing the point of the technique,,and you as well BKH. ITS A TRAINING TECHNIQUE DESIGNED TO COORDINATE YOUR LEFT AND RIGHT ATTACKS. THE SHORT KATAS ARE BASIC MOVEMENTS THAT ARE DESIGNED TO GIVE THE BEGINNER A FOUNDATION TO WORK FROM.
I seriously doubt that this 3rd degree SD person used that sparring technique 10 on you. if he had you would have been clutching YOUR ribs and trying regain your balance.
SO are you guys gonna keep perpetuating this thread or are we gonna move on to better things to discuss? I mean really now fellas. this is not going to happen for a while now so lets just ease out of this thread and go back to our lives and come november i will post again and give mmy E.T.A. into Austin.
till then im out of here for a while.
Many respects, Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

[reemul]

Don't give us this holier than thou routine, you're one of the first to start tossing flames.

[BeiKongHui]

Hey, wimper sword if those "short kata's" and "sparring techniques" are so effective why don't you explain them for everyone here? The 3rd degree BB was a student of Sin The's Gym, yes the main one. Of course you did make one point for me and that's that none of you knows what your forms are really for. Take a look at my profile, see the arts I train in every single day? Well, I've sparred people from all those arts - boxers, karate, wrestlers etc and SD "black belts" have been the lowest skill level of all. On a separate note you should know that your impotent fury makes for entertaining reading on a long boring work day. You and that Radnoti fellow make for some good laughs you are like the Jehovas Witnesses of the martial arts world.

"To the extreme!"
--Poochie

[russ]

BHK,

Do you know the name of the 3rd degree Black Belt from Sin The's Gym? Or could you just give a description. I train at that gym and would like to ask him why he tried sparring technique #10 on you (don't want to make the same mistake he did.) Part of the technique is to block your ribs, but I can see how a hard, well-placed kick could somewhat neutralize that block.

Russ

[Radhnoti]

Hey BKH, you forgot the H in my name. Nice to be remembered though...
Say whatever you want, come November we'll finally have something concrete to speak about. I think it'll be the SD supporters who are happy and "the bandwagon" stumbling over themselves to explain something that to them is unexplainable. But, really, with an "answer" about the effectiveness of SD just around the corner, I think it's silly to waste energy with blabbing NOW. So, to the amazement of all I'm sure :D , I'll try to stay out of this "mouth boxing" until after the fight.

-Radhnoti

[Anarcho]

Maybe the disinterested parties should lay off Shaolin Do at least until the fight. Hey, Willow Sword has stepped up to the plate for his art, and I respect him for that.

[BeiKongHui]

Actually, I'm just trying to get a rise out of the TWS. The SD BB is a friend of mine so I don't want to drag his name out in the open but it happened about 2 years ago and was accidental. Really, I have several friends who are SD black belts (most under Sin The a couple under his brother) and I've got nothing agianst them I just don't like SD because the art doesn't seem very effective as they've all heard me say with frequency. All the guys I've seen from SD with any fighting ability (Bill Leonard for example) would've been pretty good fighters martial arts or not.

The problem with #10 is that it like many SD moves assumes your opponent is standing still or fights like a karate point fighter. When you leave the ground it's a simple matter for some one who trains in mobile footwork to get off center and behind you waiting for your exposed back. What really works best is a Wing Chun front kick (or well maybe any type of front kick)because in the position you hold your hand that blocks the ribs there is virtually no resistance to a kick and if you try to be real tense like many SD people I've seen you'll at least get your hand broken. The dangerous thing I see is that the opponent doesn't really have to kick very hard just have good structure & the momentum of the Shaolin Do practioner provides all the force you need. If I were a SD practioner I wouldn't use that technique at all because it leaves you vulnerable on so many fronts. Also, you guys like to stand sideways so much it's easier to take you to the ground than it is a Wing Chun or Muay Thai guy or boxer even.

For those that wonder this technique begins with the SD person facing the opponent side on (all the sparring techs. do I think) leaping into the air (up & towards the opponent), you raise the front arm up (elbow pointing up) so that you can come down with a karate chop and hold the back hand accross your stomach so you can use that hand to block the ribs you leave exposed. You also raise the leg closest to the opponet (bent at the knee) so that you land on one foot. One of the SDers can probably describe it better.

"To the extreme!"
--Poochie

[russ]

I agree that some of the best fighters in our school (especially Bill Leonard) would be great fighters without martial arts training.

I've never used ST #10 while sparring (haven't really thought about using it) and probably never will. Some of the things we learn are more applicable than other things. If anybody does it to me, though, I'll use your counter attack.

Russ

[reemul]

SD = Karate

[Dark Knight]

This obsession with SD has got to end. People critisize something when they have limited knowledge on it. I have seen top fighters in many arts and crappy fighters from ones that turn out champions. I fought one guy in TKD who kiched my shoulder out in one shot.

If you feel that the style has no value, go down and take classes for a couple of months, find out what the concepts are about. The BB that come out may be poor due to a poor instructor, or just poor BB's.

[billy_pilgrim]

If someone wants to argue that Shaolin-Do is an effective fighting art, then I guess fighting would be the only way to settle the argument. But very few of the arguments against Shaolin-Do (that I've read), focus on this aspect. Most people's problems with SD (myself included) hinge around the simple fact that, effective or not, it simply isn't what it's presented to be.
You've got Bak Mei forms which aren't Bak Mei, you've got 7* mantis forms which aren't 7* mantis, and, the explanations for all of these discrepancies are that SD students are learning the "real" thing, no one else got the good stuff. And, yes, to answer your question, I have been told this in the past by wide-eyed SD practicioners, who, somehow, manage to keep a straight face the entire time.
The Bak Mei form presented on the Atlanta school website is just one in a loooong line of examples. Absolutely none of the ging for which white eyebrow is famous, none of the easily recognizable posture used in Bak Mei, Southern Mantis, Lung Ying and other systems. A very jerky, mechanical, dare I say...Karate look to it??? And yet, why should this surprise anyone? I've heard that Sin used to call what he taught "karate" a few decades ago, you have these ridiculous "Short Katas" which are IDENTICAL to some Shotokan katas, you have Japanese nomenclature and Japanese trappings, and you play with nunchakus, but everytime someone tells an SD student that they're studying Karate they throw fits, "no I'm not! Didn't you read the sign out front, it clearly says 'Shaolin!'"
Sin's own brother openly calls him a liar, but apparently that doesn't carry much weight...
I mean, seriously, why do WE even bother? If someone walks into a Shaolin-Do school and puts on a Japanese Gi, learns Japanese katas with Japanese names, plays with Japanese weapons, and STILL thinks that they're studying a Chinese Martial art...do you honesty think anything you, I, or a member of Sin's own family says about the guy will have any effect?

[Radhnoti]

This has all been addressed before, anyone who wants to know the reason for the Japanese flavor can check the old threads. Anyone who wants the lowdown on the differences AND similarities between the The' brothers can check the old threads. Anyone who wants to look into my personal involvement in Japanese karate and how I think SD measures up can check the old threads.
Anyone who wants to see how successful billy_pilgrim and the rest of "the bandwagon" is at "revealing the truth" about SD can check the old threads. Let's face it, there's really not much to say until November rolls around.

-Radhnoti

[billy_pilgrim]

I could care less what happens in Nov. TWS MAY in fact be a better fighter than this reemul guy, so what? I never said SD wasn't or couldn't be effective...
You're beating your chest about the fact that no one has convinced you to repent of your Shaolin-Do ways, maybe you mistake some of my posts for prosletyzing, but I conceeded on the first that any and all attempts to convince you that you weren't learning Shaolin Kung Fu would fail...this ain't exactly something for you to be proud of, in my humble opinion.

I mean, we have a guy, who says he "mastered" 900 forms in 10 years, some of which grant immortality to the practicioner (funny that, he seems to be aging like the rest of the populace).
We have Japanese weapons...when did they get integrated into Shaolin again? And all of the other Japanese trappings, in fact, we have the man himself who called what he taught Karate, then decided it may be more lucrative to use the name Shaolin. We have the fact that to the vast majority of people who practice CMA's, SD doesn't look like anything they do, but, despite all this, you're convinced, OK, fine, I won't attempt to argue on that front, however...
I WILL continue to argue that that Bak Mei form most definitely is not Bak Mei, and I submit that it does not adhere to any of the principles of anything else attributed to the White Eyebrow monk, and, if you're silence is any indication, maybe I've won that argument. I also submit that I could be wrong, which seems to be a position none of you SD peeps is willing to adopt...If you would like to debate the veracity of the form in question, please just let me know...
I know you believe that I have some kind of self-serving agenda here, well, would you please let me in on what that may be, cause I'm at a loss...believe it or not, I'm not trying to be the bad guy.

Take Care.

[reemul]

Are you or your instructor familiar with the late
Master Lo from San Francisco?

[Radhnoti]

Ok...I said I wasn't going to go over the same ol' stuff, but you asked a legit question and I've always done my best (as a student with a little UNDER a year in SD) to answer. Grandmaster Ie was forced out of China and fled with many Chinese immigrants to Indonesia. In Indonesia the Chinese were subjected to hatred and discrimination. To cloak the origin of the style Grandmaster Ie adopted MANY Japanese practices. I'd list them...but I've done it before and if you're actually interested you can go do a search on Shaolin-do on this forum.
The word karate. Again I've covered this topic, a search might be in order again, but here's the gist. Grandmaster Sin started teaching in KY in the early 70's. Explaining what he was teaching was difficult enough. Kung Fu had not yet experienced it's "boom", and for simplicity's sake he allowed folks to classify his art as "karate". He and his upper level students STILL don't care how SD is classified. When pressed to classify they seem to prefer the Mandarin Wu kung or Ch'uan-fa.
Aging...the guy is almost SIXTY. Have you seen him?!? He may not be immortal, but he is CERTAINLY healthy for a man of his age.
TWS spoke about the similarities SD students find to our forms in villages AROUND the temple.
I don't know the Bak Mei form, nor have I seen it. I'll have to file it away with the Tai Chi 24 form as something to learn for comparisons sake someday.
I don't "beat my chest"...at least I never felt I was doing so. I do my best to give MY perspective of something I respect and enjoy. Most that attack SD have never met a student, never seen a SD form in person and just pick up from what they've heard others say. I don't think you're a bad person, just a person with no first hand experience with SD or a different perspective than my own. However, I do think SOME folks attack SD in an attempt to fit in or draw praise on this and other forums.

-Radhnoti

[MonkeySlap Too]

It's not Bak Mei, It's not Chen Taiji, It's not Yang Taiji, It's not Shaolin - what is it?

Oh yeah, it's the 'one true style', the rest of us are doing 'wushu'.

I think we all to go read eric hofflers 'true beleiver' again. No one wants to admit that they bought into a lie.

Rahdnoti, I actually can buy the aurgument about using Japanese terminology. This is actually common practice with some Dutch-Indo Kun Tao players who had to deal with Japanese stylists running the Dutch martial arts oversight groups.

However, it is the material you are doing that does not match what you call it. You can say we are all modern wushu players, but that just demonstrates your ignorance.

Doesn't it bother you that NO ONE outside of your own group buys into this story? The only other group I have EVER seen treated like this is the Chung Moo Doe people. But I don't think you guys are as goofy as them. Just misguided.

I can't wait until you guys add Shuai Chiao to your list...

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[Radhnoti]

:confused:
I don't recall judging anyone or anything MonkeySlap Too. How 'bout you? :)
My skill level is far from sufficient to pass judgement on anyone, especially someone from another style. And frankly, it never ceases to amaze me that so many on this forum decide to attempt to judge shaolin-do forms via realplayer online videos. I don't know a lot about other CMA styles, but isn't it conceivable that something that was taught at the temple evolved in one direction for us and another for you? Sure it's possible. What isn't in the right circumstances?
Thanks for thinking I/we are not goofy, probably the closest thing we've gotten to a compliment since I've been posting here. Might be about as close as we'll get too.
:D

-Radhnoti

[MonkeySlap Too]

No. The RealPlayer vids are not my only observation.

Your argument of different evolution is just sophistry. You nor any of the true beleivers, including my new friend WTS have yet to actually answer why no one outside of your group thinks what you are doing is legitimate CMA.

Doesn't that strike you as odd? Especially when the only other group to get this kind of treatment is Chung Moo Doe. It should make you wonder.

Just because you WANT to beleive something, does not make it true. Sorry, dude.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[The Willow Sword]

we base our systems legitamacy on what our superiors tell us ,,what we read in books and what we see on tv and in demonstartions...some of us are lucky enought to go to China to see for ourselves if what we do is legitamate or to make a comparison as to what we are practicing and what THEY are practicing. i read ALL the time the comments that state that what SD does is not CMA,,,,well what is CMA if not a blend and a WIDE vARIETY of movements and systems some hard some soft,,some linear some circular. CHINA is NOT the
Focal point for ALL fighting arts, And certainly Shaolin IS not the ONLY art out there in VHINA that has a history. The fact that we modernize ourselves to this society in this country upsets people like YOurself monkey slap because you were brought up in the martial arts relm with a more TRADitional approach to the Clothing. When you look at the clothing that is worn for TAichi as well as for Shoalin or karate or bak mei all you see are pants shirts and what the "taichi uniform is ,,and all that is,,is the COmmoners garb,,,We in this country have utilized the commoners uniform in Japan and in china and associated it with Martial arts. the gi is a peasant and farmers clothing ensemble for it is durable and resistant to dirt and grime. the china mans common uniform is thinner and lighter,,obviously because there are a billion chinese and most people cannot afford to get the tough durable fabric used to make quality clothing. In my opinion the uniforms,,gi's ,frock, has no meaning for me or others at SD other than that is what we wear to work out in,,for the reasons i mentioned above. as RAD has stated in our SD history a japanese look had to be adopted for fear of being ostracized and/or killed due to a japanese totalitarian regime taking over china and the southeast asian countries at the time.
PLus when we think of shaolin we think of the monks wearing thier robes and shaved heads and incense burning,,,,WELL WE ARE NOT MONKS,,we practice the fighting and meditation aspect of the life they once had. most americans would walk right out of the kwoon (with the exception of a eccentric few) thinking oh my god this is a cult. yet we wear gi;s which is what most americans recognize and WE are still called a cult. this perplexes me. As for what we do as not being CMA's you say that our forms look nothing like what you do or what you have seen,,does that mean that it truly is not CMA? becuase your sifu said it wasnt or that what you read in books conflicts with what we do? how do you know that he books are telling you the truth or what you want to hear or see with your own eyes? how DO YOU KNOW THAT YOUR SIFU IS LEGITAMATE? documents? sincere talking,,6th sense about who is lying and who is not? HAve ANY OF YOU ever really STUDIED CHINESE History and Learned of the atrocities and the burning of scrolls at the temple and the killing of hundreds even thousands of monks there? You also state that all we do is call you guys modern wushu and what we do is the "true art" well i must apologize for those who do say this at our school. for i know given my experience before SD that there are other arts and systems that are TRUE to themselves. I have not trashed another persons style or system. but what is Wushu? that is what the CHINESE IN CHINA CALL THIER FIGHTING ARTS. now it has become a sport event and a national treasure but what if any of it is about true fighting? not to say that what Monkey slap or REEmul does is not about true fighting. i guess that what really bugs folks here is the claims that GM sin The' makes about the history the lineage and what GN SIn claims to know. and it is Alot. i cant say for sure,,i take him at his word on things,,i Myself have questions about certain things,,but i am not in a position to judge him for what he has become or what he has accomplished in his life. Most of you think that he lies,,and that there are inconsistancies in ehat he says,,,,and in earlier posts you have cited them,,,,I DO NOT HAVE AN ANSWER FOR ANY OF THAT,,,AS for me gentlemen YOU ARE DEALING WITH A Person that is souly interested in learning what Gm sin And My Sifu MAster Schaefer has to teach. What i am not interested in is all the political BS associated with martial arts schools History Lineage and all that,,You KNow I dont Care even if it is MADE UP. I have utilized it in REAL situations i know it works and I believe it to be a chinese fighting art. Regardless of some of the karate flair that this art has. to me KArate is about POwer and to me <thats what fighting's central theme is ,,POWER,,and not just physical power either. It is also about flow and grace and discipline,,the central themes to ALL martial arts be they Karate Shaolin or this chung moo do_(whatever that is). When you look at REALITY in fighting you dont see people dancing around and acting like a fool in fighting you see powerful strikes and SIMPLE techniques being utilized to end the situation,,THE REST IS JUST a physical and mental workout. I have NO illusions about what fighting is and what an ancient system of fighting is either. i know that the shaolin monks utilized the fighting styles of animals,,but
within those styles of tiger crane ,,mantis snake monkey ,,drunken,,we see the same PUNCH AND THE SAME KICK DONE IN SEVERAL DIFFERENT WAYS,,Which one os nore effective for you,,is it a Krate chop or a Tiger PAw strike or a snake jab to the eye?
this is the real system at hand people and not talking about SD either,,the true art of fighting is an art which surpases all of that form and stance and movement to become something unique to yourself,,be it a tiger mantis ,,crane or all of the above. And most of ALL of our fighting techniques are THEORY ANYWAY,,some work some dont, some techniques are about fighting and some are not,,whaich is internal and what is external. Of course my BAk mei is going to look different than yours or my Fu Hok, or my kick or my punch.
Shaolin is what Shaolin is Now..IT IS A SYSTEM OF FIGHTING,,and that is the system we practice At SD...FIGHTING,,AND DISCIPLINE AND INTERNAL. just like all of you....We have our lineage and our history and thats the way it is BElieve it or not,,,call it a lie or call it truth ,,call it a fraud or call it genuine.....whatever you want it to be it is,,,,,,,,but that is not necessarily the WAY it is. that is all i have to say now,,,,
Many Respects,, Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

[reemul]

Shaolin kungfu is a global term under which there are several systems of fighting.

I could understand that forms that SD claims to have knowledge of that belong to other systems such as Bak Mei might be a little different, however the Bak Mei people have been established long before Shaolin Do and the Shaolin do forms aparently look completely foreign to them.

As for going to China and getting acceptance from the "Shaolin Monks", Of course they're not going to tell you you're full of crap. For one, they would not know and second it would hurt tourism.

When SD was getting started in Austin, they printed up these broshures stating that someone in the SD lineage was taught all of the animal systems from the different Shaolin Masters. For starters each animal system has a lifetime of information and mastery of an animal system was never achieved until the majority of your life had passed. The mastery of multiple systems never happened. To do so contradicts the concept of mastery. As well, None of the Shaolin animal systems in existance recognize the SD tale nor do they recognize the movements in the form.

If Sin is so Apathetic to what the system is called, why not rename it and avoid the hassle. I may have missed some info, but I don't see how the name Shaolin-do masks chinese origin whith the "Shaolin" being the first word in the name.

[Sharky]

it might all be bollocks, but you might still get your ass kicked.

My anus is superior™

[Brad]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> but what is Wushu? that is what the CHINESE IN CHINA CALL THIER FIGHTING ARTS. now it has become a sport event and a national treasure but what if any of it is about true fighting? not to say that what Monkey slap or REEmul does is not about true fighting. [/quote]
The combined 24 form is a modern form(1956). SD claims it is Shaolin. Why?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You KNow I dont Care even if it is MADE UP.[/quote]

That's pretty stupid. If your teacher is an outright liar, and you don't care...there's something wrong with you :(

[shaolin_knight]

This is an old argument. People make up arts all the time, that's how they get started, they don't pop out of thin air. Even respectable sifu lie about lineage and such. Who cares? TWS knows Sin The tells tall tales. He studied for seven years (I think). Can he just say "it was a waste of time". No. It wasn't for him (seems he feels that way anyway). I wonder though, you say your art looks like arts from around shaolin village. Isn't your art supposed to come from Fukien? Not Henan. Two far away places, the arts in those two places don't really resemble each other. And in Henan, the traditional arts are still taught, like Hong Chuan, Tongbei Chuan, etc. Not modern wushu at all, and not like your forms at all either. That's cool, the whole japanese name thing. What does it prove? Sin The is how many generations from the temple? Two? Ok. Many other sifu, who are between 4-10 generations from the temple, practice similar arts. Yet these arts evolved seperately. Yet they look similar. Your art, which should resemble what was practiced in Fukien Shaolin as it has only been passed down a few generations, does not resemble these other arts. These other arts are very different, yet they all have something in common. What does Shaolin-Do have in common with these other arts? The names of forms? So your art is made up. Who cares? If you like it, practice it. Can these Shaolin-Do people change what Sin says? No. What can they do about the lies? Nothing. It's not their fault. I think if people didn't attack them so much they wouldn't be all like "your a *******, we are good." They practice Shaolin-Do. Let them work within their own art. It really doesn't effect the rest of the martial community, they don't fight, they don't enter Taolu competitions, as long as they don't interfere with my training, I don't care what they do.

Seriously though, I was wondering about the Golden Cockroach form. I've never seen it. When I first heard of it, the image popped in my mind of Sin The, great master inspired to create a fighting form based on the fight he saw of two cockroaches in his apartment. Then I got kind of curious. What's it about? Is there a story behind it? Just curious. Happy training everyone, Hung Ga, Shaolin-Do, Bak Mei, Tae Kwon Do, whatever you may practice. :)

[reemul]

False advertisement. You don't know how often I have had to explain that our school is not associated with the Shaolin-do people. The fact is the general public doesn't know the difference and, here in America, they are quick to put us all in the same boat even though we are completely different.

Hell I'm not out to "get" the Shaolin-do people, but this is a forum, and I'm here to voice my opinion.

[UberShaman]

If a butcher sells pork as beef is that acceptable? If only one perspective shaolin-doh students reads these posts then they have accomplished something. :p

[MonkeySlap Too]

Shaolin Knight and Ubershaman has put it down well.

WTS- everyone I have ever spoken to in the SD organization espouses these very problematical truths.

Noone buys the differing evoloution aurgument because the moves demonstrated do not exhibit the principles of the styles being represented.

As far as history goes,and I'll use myself as aqn example even though I loathe to, my grand teacher is IN the history books both in China and Taiwan. Not only is he in the history books, but people OUTSIDE of my organization know of our art and it's history. And what I do is a mere 'family' art. SURELY, the one true Shaolin style would be known and recognized outside of it's own, very insular schools?

Anthropologists and historians look for multiple sources to back up a history. Different, independent routes of evoloution. Every CMA school that I know of can be traced at least to a certain point of history, and you can find records of the arts that influenced them. This is ture even with arts that were persecuted or had records destroyed. You can syill find evidence to paint a picture.

With SD, I would look at it, and say - hmm, karate moves, karate principles, it's karate. Wait - there are some 'Chinese' forms. Hmmm, they do not follow the principles of those styles. Hmmm, either learned from books, video or made up.

Hmmmm.

Are there well knownmembers of the Chinese community or Chinese scholars in Indonesia who can back of up Sin The's claims? THAT would be interesting.

I would think historians in China would be very interested in Sin The'.

Unless they saw him move. I'm sorry. I've looked into it again and again. Every SD guy I've met was in shape. THey could do the Karate break boards with spacers thing, and the karate iron body stuff (very bad you, by the way), but the CMA they claim to do is NOT what they say it is. Differing evoloution does not explain it. However it DOES look like other stuff I've seen Karate guys pull from books.

Just my obvservation. Selling Spam and calling it steak. It aint the same thing.

I do not dislike any of you. I wish you well. I just think reading the book 'true beleiver' would help.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Sorry for my rapid, bad typing. "very bad for you" I meant to type...

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[The Willow Sword]

teh Animal systems are variations of the SAME PUNCH AND SAME KICK AND SAME BLOCK,,just done with different approaches to the things i just mentioned. you sat karate moves,,karate style,,WELL WHERE IN THE HELL DID KARATE COME FROM? UHHH LET ME SEE UGHH IS IT CHINA? YES IT CAME FROM CHINA<<EVEN the history of japanese martial arts states this. SO this being true i would have to say that whatever you call a fighting system be it shaolin or karate it is ALL FROM THE SAME POT. nOwe as i keep saying about the shaolin forms. there are COMBAT FORMS and there are forms for show and there are forms that focus on internal and there are frms that focus on a particular style of movement. i just dont see how you do not think that our forms do not represent the principles of the animla styles.,,,THEY IN FACT DO. As far as REEmuls comment about taking a lifetime to master one particular style. i feel that this is A better topic for debate rather than the SD threads that put us in bitter defensive postures with you guys.
WE are not inept people and OH I NEVER STATED THAT GM SIN TELLS TALL TALES<<LETS GET THAT CLEAR>
and as for me saying above that i dont care if it is made up,,that does not mean that i think that SD IS MADE UP....COME ON NOW GET OUT OF THE HOLLYWOOD MARTIAL ARTS MENTALITY PEOPLE,,seriously now,,this is not the KUNGFU series or TENNAGE MUTANT TURLTS OR LONE WOLF. Why are we SOO **** interested in the exact history and origin of anything? it is and will always be a mystery,,,we look into things more so than we should,,,,,and to tell you the truth guys most of us dont give a crap about the history anyway,,WE ARE NOT INTO MARTIAL ARTS TO BE HISTORIANS NOW ARE WE? i do not state this to draw away from our history,,but i tell you if i spent half as much time as i do here arguing the history rather than practicing, i would be a lot better off,,the main purpose here is to make contacts with people and to establish kindredships with fellow martial artists AND I DONT WANT TO BE SUBJECTED TO ALL THIS EGO HISTORY MY ARTS BETTER THAN YOU ART OR YOUR ART SUCKS CRAP!!!!! MOnkey slap has talked with me and i am about to MEET ILLUSIONFIST TOMORROW IN ALBUQUERQUE<<<<MAYBE IF ALL OF YOU WOULD LISTEN TO THESE PEOple whom youtrustABOUT WHO I AM AND WHAT I Represent then maybe you would have a different attitude about me and what it is that I do,,,,Most of you here are KIDS,,and i dont say that to be demeaning,,but i have 15 yrs on some of you and i KNOW MY STUFF,,and i also have good ideas to share.
so with that in mind i will continue to communicate with you about things regarding this.
Many Respects,Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

[Losttrak]

Being the ever-vigilant servant of the Forum, I have offered my services to mediate the bout to whatever guidelines the challengers request. I am in Dallas with plenty of vacation time to accommodate you. Look at my profile and email me if you have any further questions as who I am. I will be impartial and will make sure that no one gets seriously hurt... if thats your request. I will even bring a digital camera to record it if you like.

"If you and I agree all the time, then one of us is unnecessary."

[Brad]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>People make up arts all the time, that's how they get started, they don't pop out of thin air. Even respectable sifu lie about lineage and such. Who cares?[/quote]

The difference is when someone make up their own art they name it. They don't give it names of specific styles allready in existence. Sin The claims to have mastered every Shaolin(& quite a few non Shaolin) systems, and names specific styles like Chen Taiji, Hua Quan, Bak Mai, etc.

[Brad]

I think we all just keep repeating ourselves over, and over... :D
Someone should just make a Shaolin-Do FAQ sheet with simple answears from Pro & Con SD people. Then everytime the topic comes up just post the link and say "look here!"

[billy_pilgrim]

I'll try to keep this short...
Selling a lie to the public is fraud. If I sell you a used car that has 10K miles on it, but, in actuality, it had over 100K, I merely rolled back the odometer, that's fraud.
Yes, it's true people have been making up their own arts for centuries, but they give them a unique name. If I made up my own pseudo martial art, and decided to call it "Tai Chi-Do", Tai Chi people would have every right to be indignant about it...just like Disney would have every right to sue me if I started my own fly-by-night internet company and adopted their name. Most MA are not copyrighted, so there is nothing anyone can legally do about it, but we're talking morality here, what's right and what's wrong. Sin MAY not have broken any laws, but...
My knowledge of SD does extend beyone real player clips, but, I must thank them for those clips, because they lend so much credence to all of the anti-Shaolin-Do posts.
I've been to the Atlanta school(one of 'em at least) a couple of times, and have talked to numerous students over the years. I first visited there about 8 years ago and got the HARD SD sales pitch, the one where they tell you that not only is Shaolin-Do authentic Shaolin Kung Fu, it's the sum total of ALL Shaolin Kung Fu, and, it even incorporates Daoist styles that have nothing to do with Shaolin.
The instructor was pretty buff, and quite quick, and I'm sure that he can defend himself...
The students lined up and began to go through their short katas, there were about a dozen of these, of which, about 3 of them my friend(at the time) who had a few years of Shotokan under his belt could reproduce on the spot, in front of the instructor who asked him, "do you have any prior training in Shaolin?"
This sales pitch also included the answer to my question, "Why the Japanese uniforms, why the Japanese nomenclature, why the nunchakus?"
The answer: "GM Sin The was born in Inonesia, when he first began training in Shaolin, there was a law prohibiting the open practice of Chinese martial arts, hence, his teacher adopted the Japanese uniforms and trappings to circumvent the law."
The above is almost exactly what I was told...about three years ago, a student at that school relayed almost the same story to me, but minus the "law", basically, it's the same story you guys are now telling, I can't help but wonder if three years from now, the story will change again...
I took Rad's advice, and searched a few of the archives...I found these beauties courtesy of MonkeySlap. Any of you guys care to elaborate on this?
http://forum.kungfuonline.com/1/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=126197291&f=123191102&m=3341983922
http://forum.kungfuonline.com/1/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=126197291&f=238199028&m=2521983922

When I visited the Atlanta school 8 years ago, there was no mention whatsoever of teaching Liu Ho Pa Fa, but, now, as I understand it, they teach it?
This should be very easy to verify. If no one in SD knew LHPF 8 years ago, but they teach it now, who learned it? From Whom? When? These are questions everyone in SD should be asking. How come none of you guys ever raise an eyebrow when Sin, almost magically, reveals yet another style in his repetoir? A style that has nothing to do with Shaolin and was never taught in any Shaolin Temple.
The comment about the Tai Chi is spot on. The SD Tai Chi looks like the compulsory PRC version, a 20th century creation, available to anyone by video.
TWS has already said (more or less) that he doesn't care if he's being lied to...do you Rad?
I do.
I still do not think that anything I say will have any effect on you guys, but I do write this for the benefit of any newbie or lurker who may be considering embarking down this road...don't say you weren't warned.
You guys don't know this Bak Mei form, OK, fine. Can you find me someone who does, and get them on this forum? We can have an open debate, we can find out why this form is devoid of any of the ging (that loosely translates to power for you SD guys) for which white eyebrow is famous. We can discuss the history of this form, the conflicting posture, everything. We don't have to wait til November, we can do this right now. Should be interesting.
SD will continue to thrive despite my efforts, so you students of Sin's can take comfort in that. The idea that you can go down to your local strip mall, throw down $50/month, and learn ancient secrets of Temple Boxing and become a black belt in two years(at the Atlanta branch, this is how long it takes to "master" Shaolin Kung Fu), appeals to many. No one wants to hear that real Kung Fu takes many, many years of diligent practice. No! I want to be a black belt in two years, and I want to have my own franchise school in five!

[Brad]

Here's some vids of PRC Taiji just so everyone knows what it looks like: http://www.taiji.de/taiji/head5e/index.htm

[russ]

billy_pilgrim, In response to:
The idea that you can go down to your local strip mall, throw down $50/month, and learn ancient secrets of Temple Boxing and become a black belt in two years(at the Atlanta branch, this is how long it takes to "master" Shaolin Kung Fu), appeals to many. No one wants to hear that real Kung Fu takes many, many years of diligent practice. No! I want to be a black belt in two years, and I want to have my own franchise school in five!

I am a Shaolin-do student training in Lexington under Senior Master Bill Leonard, who has 30+ yrs experience w/ Grandmaster The'. I've been training for a little over a year, and it has been heavily stressed that when you obtain your black belt (min. 2.5 years in Lexington) you are then a beginner, not a master. The training up to becoming a black belt is preparation for taking a large step up in the amount of things you can learn. Once you reach black belt you are allowed to learn anything, but up to that point you must follow a set path. A master is a 5th degree black belt, which takes ~16-17 years I think (seems like a long time to me.) I hope this clears up any misunderstandings about what our belt rankings symbolize.

Russ

[reemul]

Mastery in Shaolin kungfu takes a lot longer than that russ.

[MonkeySlap Too]

The debate over mastery is questionable. First we have to define mastery.

Let's get back to the core questions...

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[joedoe]

Mastery in any style takes different amounts of time for different people.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

[HuangKaiVun]

This flamethrowing macho BS thread SUCKS.

[billy_pilgrim]

Russ,
OK, I don't want to get bogged down in the minutiae of this whole "mastery" thing...I am only quoting the Atlanta branch. What you seem to be saying is that, a black belt in SD is quantitatively, almost worthless. I mean, if it's reflective of showing up once or twice a week for an hour at a time for 2-2.5 years, then it really means next to nothing. Reemul says the same thing, and he gets challenged to fights.
Interesting...
Does anyone want to address the cogent questions? This BM form? The LHPF material? The History? SD claims a monastic origin for their material, but give very vague historical info about unnamed temple(s) in Omei, Wutang...what were the names of these monasteries, again? What about the Bagua SD teaches...Bagua is an entire system, but at SD, it's just a couple of forms in a list of 900??? How did this happen?
How come the SD material grows almost yearly?

[billy_pilgrim]

Courtesy the fine folks of the Atl branch again:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Classical Pa Kua Chang : 7 Months The 8 Changes of the Palm is a internal arts system that combines an ancient form of Taoist Chi Kung Training known as "Walking the Circle" with the Buddhist tradition of using animal inspired movements for self defense. The art originated on Wu Tang Mountain and until the late Ching Dynasty (1644-1912), the art was virtually unknown outside of Shao-Lin Temple. Students will learn the "Original Form" of Pa Kua Chang and some fighting techniques
[/quote]

I really love the line about this being the "original" Pa Kua form. Notice that they've learned over the years to answer the question, "how come this doesn't look like any other Pa Kua?" before it's even asked.
Which Shaolin Temple was this original Pa Kua taught at?
How come when I visited there 8 years ago, I was given a brochure, and under "internal", the ONLY things listed were:
Tai Chi
Pa Kua
Hsing-I
go to the website and look at the material now...all this added in just 8 years, where did this other stuff come from?

[billy_pilgrim]

Huang,
Aren't you the same one that was lecturing me a few months ago about how I shouldn't be telling people that Jim Lacy is a fraud? Yeah, it was you, the pious tone is unmistakeable.
I guess I'm not supposed to tell people that they MAY be being lied to. I guess I'm not supposed to say one word in protest as good money is thrown away on this stuff. I'm supposed to sit here in silence while professional conmen bilk the public of their hard earned dollars...would you mind explaining to me where the morality in this is?
When SD tells people that they are the "most comprehensive MA in the world!", it's insulting. When SD tells their students, that their versions of material are the "original or real" thing, and that other white eyebrow that's being taught is modern wushu, it's even more insulting. When systems like Bak Mei and LHPF have their names sullied when people just carelessly attached them to an ever-growin collection of forms, it's insulting. Why are you not offended again? You just don't care?
Yeah, the SD guys are nice people, and I don't want to make enemies out of anyone, but I'm supposed to not say anything simply because of this?
If you think any of my posts were filled with machismo, or were self-serving in any way, please, give me an example.
Thanks.

[reemul]

Mastery defined by the Shaolin monastary before the masters left(1928) was defined as "Life devotion", achieving mastery in your 20's or 30's was unheard of. Asuming you started as a young child. As for other systems def. of mastery, we're not talking about other systems.

recap:
If you had not devoted the majority of your life to training in one Shaolin system, you were not considered a master.

So for all the newbies looking for a Shaolin school to train at, here is a Tip. If they claim to have mastered more than one system they are not masters, however it is possible that they may still be good practioners. You would have to judge for yourself. Also if it sounds like a sales pitch, head for the door.

[MonkeySlap Too]

We are still all waiting for the explanations about the ever growing list of forms.

Why does the Spam not look like beef?

Inquireing minds want to know.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I also want to know what other evidence there must be about SD and its curriculum in China and Indonesia.

I know people in the Indo and Malay martial arts community as well. I'm going to ask around...

Boy - I'd love to see the 'original' Pa Kua that was taught in the Shaolin temple. Anybody want to buy a bridge? It's only been used once...

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[Radhnoti]

First off, the SD folks don't HAVE to defend themselves...so it would be appreciated if you guys could ask one question at a time. I've not been on the boards the past few days and to come back and have "the bandwagon" launching so many questions is a bit overwhelming.
I'm short of time right now, so I'll answer what I can in the few minutes I have. TWS or russ can pick up what they can if they want.
Yes, I would care if anyone could PROVE I'm being lied to. As things stand, I've met the SD folks including GM Sin and I don't feel I've ever been lied to. I think GM Sin has passed on the history of our system as he learned it. The challenge for someone to step forward with something concrete to disprove any of the history has stood for quite a while. We can't prove it, and you can't disprove it. More's the pity.
Here's a major problem some have with GM Sin. He's said to have mastered 900+ forms. This is the source of the new material SD students are constantly exposed to.
TWS has studied a few internal systems in SD. Why not ask him to compare what he knows with others? As long as it's done with respect and an honest attempt to exchange knowledge, I'm willing to bet he'd be happy to do so. It'd be a lot easier than us finding someone to come to this forum and spend the RIDICULOUS amount of time that we do here. :)
Billy, reemul said more than "some SD blackbelts can't fight". He implied that NO ONE in SD could fight and bragged of beating SD students. I think that anyone that's read reemul's posts know why TWS challenged him.
DOH. Time's up....more later.

-Radhnoti

[reemul]

You and Willow need hooked on phonics, cuz you guys got some serious reading comprehension problems. As far as SD putting out good fighters my opinion was formed from me shamelessly beating them so easily and from a friend who also recieved no comp from so called SD instructors. TWS challenged me, cuz I know how to push his buttons. I'm sure it's possible SD may have a few people who can fight, no thanks to SD (naturals).

I have also said time and time again that whether they can fight is not an issue with me, it is everything else that has been stated over and over.

Seeing as you have nothing new to add as usual, I will dismiss you now, Be gone! hahaha

[Radhnoti]

Yep, psyop specialist...that's you.
:rolleyes:
Good idea to establish the "natural fighters" concept right now, BTW. Come November you MIGHT need a good excuse. And I disagree with you on another point. You've said numerous times that SD is ineffective. When speaking of a martial art I've assumed that you're saying SD folks can't fight. Anyone who wants to review your posts can see for themselves and judge for themselves your intent.
Since reemul was so kind as to point out our reading comprehension problems, I think it's a good idea for folks to number their actual questions. Two reasons spring to mind:
1. It lets us see you have a question and aren't speaking rhetorically. i.e. "I also want to know what other evidence there must be about SD and its curriculum in China and Indonesia."-MonkeySlap Too, is not a very good question. I don't think he actually expected someone to try to answer that (I can't), but someone might consider that a question.
" Why does the Spam not look like beef?"-also MonkeySlap Too. While witty, this question is vague. My assumption is that he's asking, "Why isn't SD like the CMA I know?" This presumes that your way is the only right way and it's been covered before.
2. It would make things simpler for everyone involved.

OR, we can keep answering as we have been and anyone that REALLY wants an answer can ask however long it takes us to notice.

Up front, I admit to not knowing how our Tai Chi 24 form compares to the Chinese communist form. Let's number that as one. It's the question I'm currently most interested in having answered. I'm willing to buy the video if anyone can think how that might bring us a step closer to resolution.
What's question number 2? :)

-Radhnoti

[reemul]

As of late it seems you and Willow seem to be under the impression that I'm scared of the intended meeting in Nov. Let me just say for the record, I'm not. I am not impressed with SD or any of the SD people I have ever met. Having studied SD long ago and having sparred many a SD student I find that SD is lacking in martial practicality. My issue with SD is not however whether it is effective its the infringement of the name Shaolin. As far as Nov. is concerned, when I'm done with Willow you guys can send Joe in, or maybe even GM Sin.

If this is what offends you, too Fu#$#n bad.

Also I'm curious what excuses you guys are gonna
come up with in Nov.

[shaolin_knight]

Radhnoti, go the the Tai Chi site that one guy posted. You can see the 24 form there. It was created in 1954 by some guys that worked for the government of China. They wanted Tai Chi to be accessable to everyone for it's health benefits. They simplified the Yang style long form, and there you go. It's also used in Wushu tournaments I think. It is probably the most practiced Tai Chi form in China. It should look pretty much the same no matter who does it, as it is a new form.

[shaolin_knight]

Question number two:
(That's #2)

How can you possibly teach an internal style after studying for a few years? Most Bagua masters, for example, trained in Shaolin methods for maybe 5-15 years. Then trained in Bagua for another 5-15 before teaching. Even after teaching they were still learning. How are you a master of the internal styles if you know four or five tai chi forms, a couple bagua forms, and three hsing yi forms. Mastery is not forms. Hell, I could learn a bunch of forms from a bunch of styles and not do them real well, but why would I want to? To achieve mastery of a style, you must study it almost exclusively. I'm not saying it's impossible, but all the styles Shaolin-Do teaches don't really blend well.

Question number three:
(#3)
Why does Sin The's brother Hiang not claim the same lineage and not teach all the material. He says Ie Chang (or whatever his name is, I mean no offense if this is wrong) is his grandfather and that he travelled China picking up some stuff here and there from different teachers. I understand that Sin may have learned more material, but why the differing stories?

Question number four:
(#4)
Undiluted pure shaolin style. Why haven't we heard more about this from people in Indonesia who may have studied from Ie? Most kung fu styles there were well known, and sometimes blended with native arts. Knowing you have learned pure undiluted shaolin, wouldn't you be teaching it, helping to spread the art? No word yet from Indonesia on Shaolin as passed down from Ie. As you can see, there are more than one question here (#3 and #4) but they are all about the same thing: why doesn't anyone else acknowledge Sin's mastery?

[Radhnoti]

OK, number one I don't know...as mentioned. I'll pick up the video and compare it to the online version.
Number 2 should probably be handed over to TWS as internal is his forte, but I'm willing to hazard an educated guess or two. My instructor has studied for a bit over 15 years, mainly focusing on the Tiger forms in SD. He has all the requirements for his 3rd black. I THINK that associate mastery of SD is declared at fifth black. When I asked him how long it might take him to achieve associate master status, he chuckled and said, "A LONG while." The higher you climb through the SD ranks the harder it becomes to advance. Grading is tougher, your character, dedication and history of helping the organization becomes a factor almost as important as martial ability. Most high level instructors in SD end up focusing on a specific aspect in SD. I know of an instructor nearby who has focused on the Tai Chi forms in SD for...well...I'm guessing it's been about 20 years, but he's not even considered an associate master in SD. Twenty years of doing the SD Tai Chi forms...I'm tempted to call the man a SD Tai Chi "master", although he's never made that claim.
Mastery is a difficult thing to quantify.
Number 3. Hiang The' does claim the same lineage. He says he learned from GM Ie (he also learned from other students of Su), who learned from GM Su. GM Ie MIGHT have travelled and picked up lots of things...that doesn't necessarily mean he integrated what he learned into what GM Su taught. My PERSONAL opinion is that GM Ie was the grandfather of the The' brothers. GM Sin doesn't mention this fact, perhaps to avoid the implication that he was "given" the title of GM. Somewhere I have read about GM Sin being "introduced" to GM Ie. It may be naive but I've always imagined GM Ie as having two personas for the The's. One as grandfather, and one as grandmaster. It's not hard for me to imagine a young Sin The' "meeting" a man he already knew, perhaps even requiring a "sponsor" already in the school. I wouldn't be surprised if GM Ie was harder on his two grandsons than he was with the rest of his school.
The differing material. Hiang The' learned from a few different students of GM Su. GM Sin learned from GM Ie almost exclusively. This is my only answer for the differences in what is taught. I hope I have not misrepresented either GM Sin or Hiang in this, and if I have done so no disrespect was intended.
Question number 4. Tough one. I may have to revert to the "party line" on this one. GM Sin was the only one to receive the entirety of Shaolin-Do knowledge. It could be that folks that studied under GM Ie went on to found their own styles from the portions of SD they were taught...or maybe they joined styles closely resembling what they were taught. Regardless, GM Sin and Hiang both acknowledge that the school existed, I have no idea why nothing has been heard from other students of Ie. Unfortunately, my contacts in Indonesia are a bit thin at the moment. :)
Why does no one acknowledge GM Sin's mastery? I'd say because HE (or his top students) proclaimed his mastery a long time ago...and did so loudly and with no reservation. You CAN'T step on people's toes like that and expect everyone to just fall into line. Hurt feelings mixed with hearsay and a sizeable amount of "I don't care" attitude from the SD students have all combined to make this mess. At least that's MY take on the situation.
I HOPE I've been able to pass on my perspective with clarity shaolin_knight. Take care.

-Radhnoti

[The Willow Sword]

In answer to your question about the internal mastery. you know it is other people who give people the rank of master,,most masters do not think of themselves as masters. and not because they are being humble,,but because themselves they kknow ,,as i do that the internal path is a LIFE LONG process and goes far beyond any fighting or technique. i will say that i have been an internalist for about 15 yrs and that is a relatively short time to be one,,during this time i have learned the external as well(which is essential to internal training) a balance of both. in direct answer to the question you can teach if you have the aptitude and the know how to teach or to even facilitate the concepts to people. for only doing internal stuff for a few years i would not suggest that ANYONE try to teach it at first. focus on the external first as this will get the people more interested in what you are doing. as for mastery it is a state of most other peoples mind i would think,,since it is the old saying that a master will never say that he/she is a master,,they will often times renounce what master means ands simply state that they have been on the path for a while now and are eager to share what they have learned.
i hold a certification to teach and i have the blessing of my superiors to teach. as for myself i have taught people for 4 yrs now and of the 15 yrs that i have been a part of this path those 4 yrs gave me more experience in learning than 15 yrs of study. interesting huh? well for some maybe. Reemul's problem is that whether or not he wants to believe this Has no real knowlegde of what the learning or teaching process is about, with himself or any other,,,,i wonder if he truly knows what HE is doing,,rather than being all surface and talk about everything,,,,he hides himself and presents this air of mystery about him which might be good for him and his ego..but hollywood trains of thought and a fantasy is not the way of the masters nor is it the way of those who truly respect what they and others do. being able to beat up others from another school does not really make one a superior adversary. neither does thinking that one has the upper hand on any givin situation,,,i wonder if Reemul has any clue as to what a Tiger Principle is............
Many respects ,,willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.