GrandMaster of ALL Shao-Lin

[Sin The']

Other's who claim Shaolin heritage are nothing but weak posuers. Shao-Lin Do is the only REAL source for Shaolin Martial arts anywhere in the world!

Read our curriculum and weep, puny ones. (http://home.earthlink.net/~bkarnesc130/shaolin/curriculum.htm)

[dezhen2001]

where did you get the names of all the cool forms? :)

dawood

[old jong]

Black belts in Kung Fu!...Authentic!:rolleyes:

[norther practitioner]

No one else knows all the forms but you huh..... 900 hundred, good thing your mckwoons have that many students... you can teach each one of them one form.

[Shaolin Master]

Great use of
Kata, Kumite, 1-step sparring, Bo, Nanchaku
.........so just another karate school ...
Spastic really!!

[Sin The']

Bah, you foolish plebes seek to discredit the ultimate martial art of Shaoin Do! Karate means "China Hand" so it is kung fu. You all cringe before my majesty, and tremble in fear at my skill.

[Dark Knight]

"If your primary interest is tournament skills, I advise you to seek your training elsewhere! Most of what you will learn here is too lethal for tournament use. I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.' "

[old jong]

A simple question (http://www.alcofielen.com/pics/forumpics/bobs-stupid.jpg)

[African Tiger]

Ippon Kumite...Sais...methinks the Grand******* has an identity crisis...

So how the hell do you pronounce your name anyway? Is it Sin-tha? Or Sin-Thee? Or Sin (Spanish for "without") The-truth?

[Sho]

Rule #1: Never trust kung fu schools that use a mixture of Japanese and Chinese terminology.

J/K :D

[Jabb]

Originally posted by Sin The'
Bah, you foolish plebes seek to discredit the ultimate martial art of Shaoin Do! Karate means "China Hand" so it is kung fu. You all cringe before my majesty, and tremble in fear at my skill.
"Keep trolling trolling trolling trolling..."

Btw. "karate" means "empty hand", not "china hand" :D

Shaolin Do... "shaolin" is chinese but ain't "do" japanese meaning "way", but in china (atleast in mandarin) it is "wu"

This is bs, just another karate school as it is already said. Kumite, kata... hmm... :D

[Shaolin-Do]

Bahahahahahaha
I have to dive into the redundant mix. :)
and we must use some form of japanese kwandao. and the chain whip? came from taiwan... ? How about our broadswords? INDONESIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ?.......
The mantis forms? Youre **** right, we stole them from GW Bush himself,
The crane? Ha! Its straight from imperial hungary, and as for tiger, it came from a large russian named Schpotznikov.
Wait... nevermind. Im just a smart ass and tired of arguing the same ass argument.... Guess some things will never change... until I come and take all of your shiny trophies from your tournaments!!!!!!! :)

[Shaolin-Do]

and one more thing, just to let you all know,
I HAVE THE STRENGTH OF A BEAR THAT HAS THE STRENGTH OF 2 BEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No, but seriously, if my knee is ok, I will go compete in the legacy taiji tourney...
(have torn ligaments in left knee, broken right wrist, get health insurance on monday....) So... after all the surgeries ect, if Im good to go, I will compete... Even if I cant, Ill do all I can to get up there.... :)

[Shaolin-Do]

Yeah, like I said, I really want to compete....
know it would put a huge burner under some of your arses if an SDer took home some trophies... :)
but, alas, from what Ive heard the knee surgery takes a long ass time to heal... :(
and as soon as thats done I have to get surgery on my wrist... but I think Ill fix my wrist first, as it has a bone poking out.... hehehe. :)
And one more thing.... If in the event shaolin do wasnt chinese, its certainly not japanese, so the forms would be made up? making GM Sin the founder of a new style? Blah... Its not what I think at all, just some food for thought. ;)

[Brad]

If in the event shaolin do wasnt chinese, its certainly not japanese, so the forms would be made up?
Or learned from a book, video, or siminar or previous Karate experience(It would probably take a well paid private investigator to find out his complete training history, lol). Some do seem to be made up out of the blue, or changed to such an extent as to be completely unrecognizable.

making GM Sin the founder of a new style?
A new system, yes. And if he'd be honest about where everything came from, and not pass off his stuff as representative of systems that he really has nothing to do with, SD wouldn't be as much of a joke in the Chinese martial arts world as it is. People would still make fun of him, but most really wouldn't care ;-)

[Brad]

BTW, Taiji Legacy gives out medals, not trophies. Very nice medals I might add. That's one thing I like about Chinese style competitions, they give out medals instead of those gigantic trophies that you have to haul around all over the place, lol. Trophies are ugly as hell and take up to much space :-P

[SanSoo Student]

First replying to some of the so called "Forms" you have..
What is the difference in..
-Crazy Mad Drunk
-Drunken Begger
And also.. I learned long fist before any other animal styles.
Why do you teach long fist as a 4th degree black belt when your "suppose" to already know the basics.
Please reply if you actually know anything about kung fu...
Please reply McDojo master!!

[David]

Reminds me of JKD :D except we know where JKD came from: developed by a guy who never learnt anything properly but went to as many teachers as possible with 110% arrogance and the verve of a ***** dog.

-David

[David]

H0rny gets censored?!

[Jabb]

Hey btw. whats with the Chewbaca grandmaster on the "Masters" section? He looks scary :eek:

[scotty1]

Anyone who actually thinks that this guy is Sin The should take a reality check.

[Shaolin-Do]

San Soo student - crazy mad drunkard = mad insane drunkards fist.... Its a drunken form, you're just crazy and drunk...
Drunken beggar is a drunken stick and bowl form.
:)
Ive got those forms. :)

[Serpent]

And you know all about it after 5 months of "training"?

:rolleyes:

[Serpent]

Originally posted by shaolinarab
These are potentially legitimate questions, but one will find that these systems take a different approach to studying the martial arts

Yeah. Their approach is to ham together a mish mash of made up bollocks and stolen forms, slap the name Shaolin on it for marketing and charge a stupid amount of cash.

[Shuul Vis]

"Bah, you foolish plebes seek to discredit the ultimate martial art of Shaoin Do!"

Maybe im not up to speed with my vocabulary but what are "plebes" ? If it is a word then i bow to your superior something or other. If not, then thats **** funny and i am going to call many, many people "foolish plebes" from this day forward.

[Shuul Vis]

"Bah, you foolish plebes seek to discredit the ultimate martial art of Shaoin Do!"

Maybe im not up to speed with my vocabulary but what are "plebes" ? If it is a word then i bow to your superior something or other. If not, then thats **** funny and i am going to call many, many people "foolish plebes" from this day forward.

[Mr Punch]

plebe = pleb = plebian = SD practioners.

He was nearly right.

[Shuul Vis]

cool so we now have a fitting word for them. Beware You PLEBIANS!!!!

[Judge Pen]

shaolinarab,

Welcome to the forum. As an advocate for SD you may get some insults thrown you way, but I'll help you out if I can. I would say that you should't take what anyone says about SD too harshly. Some people here can engage you in a legitimate conversation wit their criticisms logically explained and others just like to troll.

I enjoyed your analogy of SD to a liberal arts education and the comparison to Kuk Sool Won ( a style I have not encountered). Are you coming to Lexington next month for the tournament?

[MasterKiller]

Many so-called martial arts choose to do the former; bruce lee chose the latter. Oh yeah, Bruce was the eptiomey of a humble, respectful Traditional Martial Artist. :rolleyes:

Do you think he was more humble before or after Wong Jack Man defeated him?


just a little exploration into the history of the system would lead you to find that after the last Fukien temple was destroyed, the monks had to go into hiding. One of them, Su Kong Tai Djin, had mastered all the styles that were taught in the temple, and he passed that knowledge to a student that systemized everything in Indonesia, giving it a japanese flavor because of the discrimination against the chinese. Can you provide any legitimate documentation supporting this claim?

[Shaolin-Do]

SD SUCKS!!!!!!!
err...
wait a minute....
:D

" you claim to study Shaolin-do in Texas yet you have said nothing to clarify any of Sin The's statements, which makes me suspicious of you, but no offense"

Eh? Cause I know Sin The' is a joke on here. Dont take too seriously anything said bout SD here or your gonna have a sh!tty time here.
:)

[brothernumber9]

does shaolin do have a praying mantis form?

[Shaolin-Do]

Several, pretty much all 7* I believe...

[brothernumber9]

what was the purpose of incorporating 7* mantis forms amid 900 others? So as not to seem that I am being offensive, although I may be. It has been posted on these forums that Shaolin Do has 900+ forms and that Sin The knows all of them. How many were original shaolin forms? Does Sin The believe that 7* or any mantis for that matter originated in shaolin, or is it just the evolution of the system where some new things are incorporated as time goes by as the head of the system sees fit, or is it something else. I've never seen shaolin Do so I'm not bashing it, but for anyone to say they learned all shaolin had to teach, even a monk, its hard to believe.

[Shaolin-Do]

I dont take everything I hear to heart. I dont honestly believe that our system incorporates 900 forms. (there are approximately 100+ shortforms and chin na) Im sure of which were counted in the "900" forms. Sin's most senior student has somewheres around 450 forms... still only half of what Sin claims to know. 3 "new" forms have been taught out this year to my knowledge, 1 more in november. Guess these new forms are just comming out of the "900" forms...
Forgot what I was getting at... I need more coffee. Finish this argument later.
:)

[Judge Pen]

I don't think that Sin The' represents all the supposed 900 forms to be "original" shaolin forms. Throughout the years, the shaolin temples have incorporated systems that have their origins outside the temple into their own training. (I think Gene may have posted something similar to this in the Shaolin forum.) so how many of the forms that he has taught out were "original" shaolin forms and how many come from systems that were incorporated later, I don't know.

BTW, I don't know much about SD's mantis, but I've been told some of it is southern mantis.

[CrippledAvenger]

... This might seem a bit OT, but what house were you in and when did you graduate? I or my sister might very well know you. PM me if you want.

[Ray Pina]

Regarding Southern Mantis, do you just learn one of the three forms, or do you learn the entire system, including the breathing -- which is different from many other syles.

With all that material I'd be concerned about the quality of any one particular skill. Southern Matis by the way, is not Shaolin, and actually has its roots in Chinese royalty. And, could be argued that it is actually not a "mantis" style. What I learned was all closed fist, very low kicks.

[Shaolin-Do]

Supposedly the entire system is taught... Im not sure tho... I know the breathing is not taught however...

[MasterKiller]

I don't think that Sin The' represents all the supposed 900 forms to be "original" shaolin forms. Throughout the years, the shaolin temples have incorporated systems that have their origins outside the temple into their own training. (I think Gene may have posted something similar to this in the Shaolin forum.) so how many of the forms that he has taught out were "original" shaolin forms and how many come from systems that were incorporated later, I don't know. There is a huge difference between incorporating a complete system, or merely incorporating an individual form or two from a complete system.

[mysteri]

(as sin th' looks into his crystal ball-the KFO forums)

u know, there r people on other forums who get a kick out of gettin the KF guys all worked up over here. how hard is it to get some books on shaolin forms, find a few pictures of master's from 'blackbelt' magazine, find a black and white picture of chewbacca for ur grandteacher, and a picture of an asian body builder w/ a mullet practicing yoga??? i could duplicate that site in a week...

is it me, or does anyone else realize how much time is spent postin and less trainin?<ding> up, my egg timer's up, enough postin for one day.. gotta get an early start on my TRAININ today! :D but u guys can stay here if u'd like, i need some amusement when i get back and u guys always always crack me up!(I HAVE THE STRENGTH OF A BEAR, THAT HAS THE STRENGTH OF TWO BEARS!!!-shaolin do) bro, i couldn't stop laughin!!!

[Shaolin-Do]

Ahh, good ol sealab 2021. Great quote :)
Im here cause Im gettin paid to be here (im at work)
Train when I get home. Yes people do bicker constantly, redundantly, pointlessly, but Ive also learned a lot on here.
As for the mullet wearing asian body builder... That really is a picture of Sin. Regardless of what he says he knows, the man is in phenominal shape...

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
There is a huge difference between incorporating a complete system, or merely incorporating an individual form or two from a complete system.

I agree.

[Shaolin-Do]

JP- whats OBX on your sig?

[Judge Pen]

Outer Banks, North Carolina. It's my usual vacation spot and I only recently returned from there.

[Shaolin-Do]

Ahhh.... We go to rivers and bars for vacation.
:)

[IronKim]

HAAA!!!!

Shaolin Do nots so great as the Ooom Yong Doe style of IronKim.

The original source of marital arts.

I challenge so called Grandmaster Sin Teh to a chalenge.

Who can jump off the highest biulding whyle doing a flying side kick.

Who can cut an apple with a Goong Sul Bope into 4 equil pieces???????

I challenge u to a duel of Bagua!!!!

I am the true Bagua!!!!

[Judge Pen]

Decaf, IK, decaf.

[PHILBERT]

JP, the actual quote from Seraph is "You do not truly know someone until you fight them."

As for people who diss Shaolin-Do, just meet one of them, seriously. If you think SD is so freaking crappy, go to one of there schools, ask in a VERY polite and friendly manner to observe, maybe spar, with them etc. to see how they work. Don't judge them until after you observe them.

[Judge Pen]

Philbert,

Thanks for the correction. I guess if I was paraphrasing I shouldn't have used quotes.

Also thanks for comments on looking before dissing. I appreciate that. If they view a class and still think its crap, at least they can state some constructive criticism.

[Shaolin-Do]

Im down to spar :)
No one ever says tho "HEY SAN ANTONIO KFERS! LETS FIGHT!"
:(
Oh well... SC starts real soon. REAL SOON.. I hope.. :(


"The original source of marital arts. "
eh? Making happy couples since 1846?
Marital arts... Like kama sutra?

[CaptinPickAxe]

Is this the real Sin The or is it a knock off?


"HEY, SAN ANTONIO LETS FIGHT! COLORADO vs. TEXAS!"

[Shaolin-Do]

Colorado vs. tx?
NP is scurd.
:eek:

Of course thats not the real Sin... Most old people arent good with computers. Unless its CSN or R5 or somethin....
:D

[Evad]

Originally posted by brothernumber9
what was the purpose of incorporating 7* mantis forms amid 900 others? So as not to seem that I am being offensive, although I may be. It has been posted on these forums that Shaolin Do has 900+ forms and that Sin The knows all of them. How many were original shaolin forms? Does Sin The believe that 7* or any mantis for that matter originated in shaolin, or is it just the evolution of the system where some new things are incorporated as time goes by as the head of the system sees fit, or is it something else. I've never seen shaolin Do so I'm not bashing it, but for anyone to say they learned all shaolin had to teach, even a monk, its hard to believe.

GM Sin is aware of 7* origins and evolution and makes no claim to it originating in the temple. He spent nearly an hour in teaching the history and different views of the mantis system during his teachings on the system. If your interested in reading some of the stuff on this subject check out the 'shaolin-do answers challenge' thread it's huge but the first several pages explains alot of the SD saga.

Also have you guys seen the new events page on the Shaolin-Do website? If not you should check it out, great trolling material! It actually says on the new seminar registration to "Please wear a traditional gi like Grandmaster Sin The's to the seminar!"

[MasterKiller]

Do you guys really call nunchuks a "2-section staff"?

[CaptinPickAxe]

my grandmother puts the mouse against the screen...and then cries when it doesn't work....maybe she could teach Sin the proper way to misuse a computer.

[Shaolin-Do]

I call them sticks and chain.
Sometimes I call them "5 chain links holding 2 deadly pieces of wood".

[MasterKiller]

The Karate Championships, eh?

http://www.shaolin-do.com/events/tournaments/2003Sep/flyer.html

[Shaolin-Do]

"Open to any Shaolin-Do student in good standing with Grandmaster Sin Thé "
hehehe....

Ugh... Dunno what to say about that. Goes with the Gis?
:)

[CaptinPickAxe]

you know, If Sin wanted to distinquish the difference between Karate and Shaolin-Do, you'd think he'd use the word "Karate" less on his documents.

[Shaolin-Do]

Makes all the arguing kinda pointless....
Myself am becomming confused... excessive use of the word karate and constant use of the word kung fu....
:confused: :confused: :confused:

[MasterKiller]

I especially like the mailing address for the form:

SDA c/o Sin Thé Karate School
282 Gold Rush Rd.
Lexington, KY 40503

[CaptinPickAxe]

it even says it on the belt certificates......
BELT certifacates.

[Shaolin-Do]

:(
:(
:(
:(

[Kymus]

Originally posted by Sin The'
Bah, you foolish plebes seek to discredit the ultimate martial art of Shaoin Do! Karate means "China Hand" so it is kung fu. You all cringe before my majesty, and tremble in fear at my skill.

Actually, it USED to be called To Te (I think that's right) which means China Hand, but it was later changed to Kara Te which is empty hand :p

[Kymus]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
Bahahahahahaha
I have to dive into the redundant mix. :)
and we must use some form of japanese kwandao. and the chain whip? came from taiwan... ? How about our broadswords? INDONESIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ?.......
The mantis forms? Youre **** right, we stole them from GW Bush himself,
The crane? Ha! Its straight from imperial hungary, and as for tiger, it came from a large russian named Schpotznikov.
Wait... nevermind. Im just a smart ass and tired of arguing the same ass argument.... Guess some things will never change... until I come and take all of your shiny trophies from your tournaments!!!!!!! :)

Holy crap! George W is really a Mantis master in disguise? I knew that guy had to do something to look that goofy and still be alive..

[Kymus]

Originally posted by Shuul Vis
"Bah, you foolish plebes seek to discredit the ultimate martial art of Shaoin Do!"

Maybe im not up to speed with my vocabulary but what are "plebes" ? If it is a word then i bow to your superior something or other. If not, then thats **** funny and i am going to call many, many people "foolish plebes" from this day forward.

From what I know, it's a word for peasant. I've seen it used in Sepultura's lyrics from the song Biotech Is Godzilla. But I don't really understand why we are being reffered to as peasants. And if you're lead to believe that any art is the ultimate, I think you need to really re-learn everything you know.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
you know, If Sin wanted to distinquish the difference between Karate and Shaolin-Do, you'd think he'd use the word "Karate" less on his documents.

I don't think that GM Sin carees one way or another.

[MasterKiller]

From what I know, it's a word for peasant. I've seen it used in Sepultura's lyrics from the song Biotech Is Godzilla. But I don't really understand why we are being reffered to as peasants. And if you're lead to believe that any art is the ultimate, I think you need to really re-learn everything you know.
Main Entry: ple·be·ian
Pronunciation: pli-'bE-&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin plebeius of the common people, from plebs common people
Date: 1533
1 : a member of the Roman plebs
2 : one of the common people

It means you are a commoner, and as such, lowly and unimportant.


I don't think that GM Sin carees one way or another.If he didn't care about it, he wouldn't be writing books, visiting Shaolin Temples, and putting so much effort into hedging the truth in order to mask the origins of his style.

BTW, JP.....Madden 2004 is the shiznit. Two words: PLAYMAKER CONTROL.

[Ray Pina]

I'd be very skeptical, to say the least, about learning Southern Mantis from this organization. Northern, maybe, but very few people actually know the complete Southern Mantis system (all three forms). There is also confusion over S. MAntis too. Because I've seen people doing "S. Mantis" sets that are obviously northern, with high kicks and the "mantis claw".

Why do I doubt that Master The' knows the entire system when NYC-based disciples of Grandmaster Gin Foon Mark do not, and those that do won't teach them.

With that said, you might be better off anyway. My old sifu screwed himself up with the S. Mantis reverse breathing. Something's not right in there. And the collopasing of the chest cavity puts pressure on the heart.

Anyway, I'm a little bummed on martial arts right now. My wrist hurts and I can't hit anything .... blaaaaaah.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller



If he didn't care about it, he wouldn't be writing books, visiting Shaolin Temples, and putting so much effort into hedging the truth in order to mask the origins of his style.

BTW, JP.....Madden 2004 is the shiznit. Two words: PLAYMAKER CONTROL.

He has always called it karate, always said it was just called karate from the tradition of teaching in indonesia, and always said its origins were in the shaolin temples. The Shaolin thing didn't come around once that name becaue more prevelant in american martial arts circles. If anything he may "americanized" the name and called it shaolin "karate" to bank in on the popularity of karate and karate's name recognition in the states during the 60s. But that explanaion comes more from his brother's camp.

Madden 2004 is the best of the series. I'm on my second season now. Not enough hours in the day to work, train, and waste time on video games. Too bad I don't have online capability. I'd show you who's the playmaker! :)

[MasterKiller]

What team do you play with?

[norther practitioner]

From his excessive posts using a certain word a while ago... I'd say the other team....:D


I'm just teasing, settle down, I don't want you using that technique from kata #887 that uses all that dim mak...

[PHILBERT]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Philbert,

Thanks for the correction. I guess if I was paraphrasing I shouldn't have used quotes.

Also thanks for comments on looking before dissing. I appreciate that. If they view a class and still think its crap, at least they can state some constructive criticism.

Not a problem. A year or so ago I use to really diss Shaolin-Do and even talked to some Shaolin practioners and joked about how I should go into the school and lay down a challenge, though I was just joking. I finally came to the conclusion that since I've never seen Shaolin-Do, I can't say Shaolin-Do is good bad. Even after meeting someone, I still really can't say, because it's the person, not the style.

I can watch a hundred videos of a hundred Shaolin-Do practioners, but until I meet a practioner, I can not say that it is good or bad. I might meet 10 SD guys, spar with 10, beat 6 and get defeated by 4. After that I can formulate an opinion of them. I really would love to meet some SD guys too, they are on the top of my list of stylists I'd like to just practice with one day to see how they do there thing. Since SD is one of the most dissed arts (next to TKD) online, I'd like to see if they can back there stuff up.

I know there is a school in my city too, I've actually driven past it, got out of my car one day and walked up and looked into the school (they weren't training at the time or else I'd of gone in). If I remember correctly, huafist even trains there, or did train there. I can easily meet them and see how they do there thing, the only thing is I don't wanna sound too disrespectful walking in and asking to spar with them in a friendly match just to formulate an opinion. :p

[Shaolin-Do]

Philbert- I should be up that way in a week or 2....

[Fu-Pow]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by shaolinarab
[B]

actually, one thing needs to be clarified. the entire mantis system is not taught per se. the curriculum is set up so that you explore different facets of different animal and other hard styles in the beginning as you progress to the blackbelt levels and pursue more in depth training of specific styles

***What is the origin of this "more indepth" training?

(hence my earlier analogy of the liberal arts). there are several playing mantis forms taught in various levels, and should you choose to focus your studies in the mantis system then you can choose to study mantis forms and applications.

***Again, where are these forms from?

that is why each of the more senior shaolin-do masters all have specialities in specific styles, such as tai chi, hua fist, and black tiger,

***Cool. It sounds like each Superfriend having their own super power.

depending on the individual even though all have conducted their training in Shaolin-do. Grandmaster Sin's is the Golden Snake.

****"I .....Sin The..... harness the power of the Golden Snake!!!!!....hooooo!!!!!......(He thrusts his hands in the air and Golden thunderbolts shoot down and his Gi turns gold with golden snake embroidery.) I am Golden Snake Master Sin The hear to fight for good and against evil and to show women everywhere my Golden Snake....techniques!!!! "

as for the mantis breathing exercises, they are taught to black belts, alongside the i chin ching exercises (muscle tendon changing/strengthening). my teacher incorporates exercises from both in our conditioning classes, and boy, do they work the b

****This stuff is such **** I can't hardly believe it????!!! Only someone with a 6th grade mentality would get sucked in by this.

It reminds me of when I used to dress up as a Ninja when I was a kid.

Sorry folks. To become a real master of any REAL style takes years and years.

[TjD]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Sorry folks. To become a real master of any REAL style takes years and years.

agreed. shaolin-do's claims are extremely insulting to the systems it claims to represent and anyone whose spent time and effort trying to master any single system.

i wouldn't give a rat's ass if they named it shaolin-do and said "these are the forms we teach - but we made them up/created them/stole them ourselves" instead of trying to tell the real experts who knows what. the problem is the arrogance in saying that "ours is the real true shaolin, most bestest thing ever and look how little work it takes! just by showing up and paying some money you too can be a master! why waste years doing it the hard way when you can have instant gratification?!?"

this may not be the way the classes are ran, but this is how the publicity/marketing works, and it stinks to high heaven.

bah

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
Im down to spar :)
No one ever says tho "HEY SAN ANTONIO KFERS! LETS FIGHT!"
:(
Oh well... SC starts real soon. REAL SOON.. I hope.. :(


Hey SD, I think you along with others will get a kick out of this interesting bid on ebay: http://home.houston.rr.com/surrenderownz/auction.htm

[themeecer]

Originally posted by Kymus


From what I know, it's a word for peasant. I've seen it used in Sepultura's lyrics from the song Biotech Is Godzilla. But I don't really understand why we are being reffered to as peasants. And if you're lead to believe that any art is the ultimate, I think you need to really re-learn everything you know.

Well I was going another direction with this; a plebe is a first-year student at the U.S. Military Academy or the U.S. Naval Academy. Kind of like calling someone a newb, I assume.

[Shaolin-Do]

hehehehe
funny stuff.
:)
Ill bid 3$!

[themeecer]

Originally posted by TjD

look how little work it takes! just by showing up and paying some money you too can be a master! why waste years doing it the hard way when you can have instant gratification?!?"

this may not be the way the classes are ran, but this is how the publicity/marketing works, and it stinks to high heaven.

Excuse you, I'm sorry. Please point out in the marketing where there is any talk of 'instant gratification.' Also point me to the 'just showing up and paying some money so you too can be a master.' That would be really cool. I've trained for 19 years, that could really save me some time on my road to master.

[Chang Style Novice]

So far as I know, plebe is short for plebeian - a commoner, one not of noble birth.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=plebeian

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
So far as I know, plebe is short for plebeian - a commoner, one not of noble birth.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=plebeian

Chang is at the clinic getting some cream as he has caught a very strident dose of the correct.

[TjD]

Originally posted by themeecer

Excuse you, I'm sorry. Please point out in the marketing where there is any talk of 'instant gratification.' Also point me to the 'just showing up and paying some money so you too can be a master.' That would be really cool. I've trained for 19 years, that could really save me some time on my road to master.

from the web page:

First Black Belt to Second Black Belt

Tai Chi Ch'uan Yang Tai Chi (64)
Pa Kua Chang Classical Pa Kua
He Foo Chon Sin Black Tiger Claws the Heart
He Foo Chuan Sen Black Tiger Turns the Body
He Foo Huan Sen Black Tiger Flips the Body
He Foo Shou Sang Wounded Black Tiger
Foong Wang Chue Han Chien Crazy Mad Drunk
Tang Lang Tse Ju Praying Mantis Enters the Door
Chway Kai Drunken Begger
Chway Tao Drunken Broadsword
Chiang Su Lian Si Spear Fighting Tech.
Luo Chia Chiang Luo Family Spear
May Hua Chiang May Flower Spear
Yang Chia Chiang Yang Family Spear
Se Mien Pa Huan Saung Tao Oo 4 Face 8 Dir. Broadsword
Tien Ta Suang Hu Tou Kou Double Tiger Hook Swords Shake Heaven
Yen Tse Tien Hsia Tao Swallow Sweeps Down from Heaven
U Si Sen Hua 5 Animal Live Training
U Si Se Hua 5 Animal Dead Training
U Si Nei Hua 5 Animal ShienTien Chi Training
I Chin Ching Change Muscle & Tendon



all that from first to second degree black belt? the only thing more instant is sending 1000$ to a guy for a video and your certificate of mastery.

heck, you get to learn all of pa kua! sign me up!

[themeecer]

Originally posted by TjD

all that from first to second degree black belt? the only thing more instant is sending 1000$ to a guy for a video and your certificate of mastery.

heck, you get to learn all of pa kua! sign me up!

All this indicates are the forms that are taught from first to second degree. Nowhere does it even hint at a mastery of these. How is this instant? We learn the forms and we spend the rest of our life working on them. If we find something that we really like, then we could choose to specialize in it. Just because a university offers hundreds of classes, it doesn't mean they are handing out PhD's instantly.

[cho]

Originally posted by themeecer
If we find something that we really like, then we could choose to specialize in it.
Now, here's what I don't understand: if someone masters/specializes in "tiger", how can this person be expected to teach someone else "mantis"?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
What team do you play with?

I'm a Redskins fan. I gather you're a Browns fan? I'm loyal so I play with the team I like even if they stink. (Actually, there not that bad on the game).

[MasterKiller]

Brownies all the way.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by cho

Now, here's what I don't understand: if someone masters/specializes in "tiger", how can this person be expected to teach someone else "mantis"? This is probably going to sound rude, but I know no other way to say it. Simply, we don't have people holding our hands on our road to mastery. (Consequently, that is also a reason you may see bad examples of forms on the web) In the beginning we teach you the applications to the forms you are learning, especially for the 30 short forms you initially learn. Much of the moves that are taught in those are seen later in longer, more advanced forms. They are basically building blocks leading up to other things. Once a person reaches black belt, figuring out applications is up to them. In some cases we help them out some, for example with tai chi or pau qua. But for the most part it is up to the practitioner to discover the meanings behind the forms. Many SD blackbelts don't bother with this, either because there is so much material they can't make the time to do it or they don't care. When you watch these guys spar they really don't utilize anything more than what they were taught their first few months of classes, basic punches, kicks, sweeps, and combos. I try not to be too critical of this because I have been guilty of this as well. I am now striving to incorporate more of my material into my fighting style. I feel like I am at a buffet, I take what I want and leave what I don't want.

[themeecer]

Double post, sorry.

[MasterKiller]

Do you feel that learning in such a manner, with such a large curriculum, sets Shaolin Do up for some serious problems once Sin The' is gone? What may very well happen two or three generations down the road is that teachers will pass on their specialities to the neglect of the some of the rest of the curriculm, and their students will do the same, to the point that eventually you have am SD Mantis lineage, and SD Tiger lineage, etc. instead of the complete SD curriculum being taught across the board.

Does this worry any of you SDers?

[norther practitioner]

But for the most part it is up to the practitioner to discover the meanings behind the forms.

OK.. you were also talking about taiji and bagua... a few questions.
When do you start with the taiji (what belt.. etc)?
How do you explain some of the push/pull (yin/yang) concepts without just outright discussing and going over the applications?
Do you find some of the conflicting principles/apps/stances between styles in SD to hinder your progress?



I feel like I am at a buffet, I take what I want and leave what I don't want.

Do you feal this is best for you? Do you find any problems with taking somethings without the others from a system?

[Ray Pina]

I just saw the Ba Gua listing.... WOW!

Who in that organization specializes in it? From whom did they learn it? How about Hsing-I.

Very curious,
Ray Pina

[Fu-Pow]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by themeecer
[B] This is probably going to sound rude, but I know no other way to say it. Simply, we don't have people holding our hands on our road to mastery.

***You don't have any one showing you ANYTHING on the road to mastery. What a cop out.

(Consequently, that is also a reason you may see bad examples of forms on the web) In the beginning we teach you the applications to the forms you are learning, especially for the 30 short forms you initially learn. Much of the moves that are taught in those are seen later in longer, more advanced forms. They are basically building blocks leading up to other things.

****So how are the basics of Tiger related to the basics of something like mantis or the basics of Taiji? These are totally different styles with different strategies and different applications. I know how you guys do it. You teach all styles as though they are ONE style and you do EVERYTHING wrong.

Once a person reaches black belt, figuring out applications is up to them. In some cases we help them out some, for example with tai chi or pau qua.

***You guys don't know the applications because you don't even do the forms correctly.

But for the most part it is up to the practitioner to discover the meanings behind the forms.

***But if you don't do the form right in the first place you'll never figure out the correct application.

Many SD blackbelts don't bother with this, either because there is so much material they can't make the time to do it or they don't care.

***You guys have all kinds of forms and you don't understand any of them. I'd rather learn from somebody that knew only one form but knew it like the back of his hand and inside out..

When you watch these guys spar they really don't utilize anything more than what they were taught their first few months of classes, basic punches, kicks, sweeps, and combos.

****That's because the foundation of your style is karate. And that's all the applications that you can adequately teach. Nothing wrong with that. But you teach a bunch of crap forms that even your most advanced people don't understand and they are totally different than karate. So you come up with crap applications that are like karate but don't make any sense in relation to the "advanced" forms that you are teaching.

I try not to be too critical of this because I have been guilty of this as well. I am now striving to incorporate more of my material into my fighting style.

***How can you when you don't understand how to do the form correctly.

I feel like I am at a buffet, I take what I want and leave what I don't want.

***Too bad it all tastes like **** to begin with.


Look man. Shaolin Do is a crock. Its "Chop Suey." A mish mash of conflicting styles and information.

Every art on your curriculum is a complete art in itself. But you have to really delve in to the inner workings of that art and make it a part of you. You have to have quality instruction from someone who has already been through the process and really understands the style.

Martial arts is built on a foundation and the more advanced aspects of the art rest on that foundation.

If I learn the basics of Hung Ga can I then go and learn the advanced forms of Southern Praying Mantis?

No, I can't. I have to go back and learn the basics of Southern Praying Mantis.

Similarily, if I learn the basics of Karate I can't go on to learn the advanced aspects of Taiji. They are just too different.

Granted, there will be some crossover but I'm still gonna have to go back and learn and modify my basics.

The way you guys train you are spinning your wheels.

Perhaps, it will take you another 19 years to figure that out.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Do you feel that learning in such a manner, with such a large curriculum, sets Shaolin Do up for some serious problems once Sin The' is gone? What may very well happen two or three generations down the road is that teachers will pass on their specialities to the neglect of the some of the rest of the curriculm, and their students will do the same, to the point that eventually you have am SD Mantis lineage, and SD Tiger lineage, etc. instead of the complete SD curriculum being taught across the board.

Does this worry any of you SDers?
In some ways yes and other ways no. My teacher has chosen to master the monkey system. He is very good at what he does. Even though he specializes in that, he continues to teach all the other material. Last week in class I watched him teach Hua, Hsing I, double swords, chi na, and a couple of other things. No matter where my path leads I will continue to teach all of the material and leave it up to the student to master what he wants.

What does worry me, is something many of our detractors have a gripe with, Grandmaster Sin saying SD is the most comprehensive martial art in the world. It doesn't matter if you believe that, or if you believe that he knows 900 forms. Whether or not he knows the most comprehensive art in the world, I don't have it. I have a very small piece of the pie. Heck, I have a lot less than people whose rank is lower than mine in SD. I don't get to make it to every seminar out there, or specialty class. Nor do I care if I make it. I have more than enough material to keep me busy for 100 lifetimes. I probably feel like many of you in those respects. Those guys may have more material, but of the ones I do know, I can perform them a lot better. My only concern is my inability to pass on our entire system. I want to perserve all the material in our system, whether I choose to learn it all or not.

I may have sounded like I was contradicting myself here. If so, I apologize.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by TjD


from the web page:

First Black Belt to Second Black Belt

Tai Chi Ch'uan Yang Tai Chi (64)
Pa Kua Chang Classical Pa Kua
He Foo Chon Sin Black Tiger Claws the Heart
He Foo Chuan Sen Black Tiger Turns the Body
He Foo Huan Sen Black Tiger Flips the Body
He Foo Shou Sang Wounded Black Tiger
Foong Wang Chue Han Chien Crazy Mad Drunk
Tang Lang Tse Ju Praying Mantis Enters the Door
Chway Kai Drunken Begger
Chway Tao Drunken Broadsword
Chiang Su Lian Si Spear Fighting Tech.
Luo Chia Chiang Luo Family Spear
May Hua Chiang May Flower Spear
Yang Chia Chiang Yang Family Spear
Se Mien Pa Huan Saung Tao Oo 4 Face 8 Dir. Broadsword
Tien Ta Suang Hu Tou Kou Double Tiger Hook Swords Shake Heaven
Yen Tse Tien Hsia Tao Swallow Sweeps Down from Heaven
U Si Sen Hua 5 Animal Live Training
U Si Se Hua 5 Animal Dead Training
U Si Nei Hua 5 Animal ShienTien Chi Training
I Chin Ching Change Muscle & Tendon



all that from first to second degree black belt? the only thing more instant is sending 1000$ to a guy for a video and your certificate of mastery.

heck, you get to learn all of pa kua! sign me up!

:rolleyes: you don't learn all of these forms, and by no means do you even come close to mastering any of these forms. That is like taking a college catalog and asserting that someone who graduated from that school passed every class in the book. I only learned 10 of these forms: 4 black tiger, 4 spear, tai chi 64 and Pa Kua Chang. I didn't master any of these. I became proficient at the forms, and learned basic applications and techniques. I'm still learning the nuiances and probably will be for the rest of my training life.

BTW, I don't think that SD is superior to all forms nor do I think it encompases every form from every system to have a link to the shaolin temples. I'm sorry if some here think that I came accross that way.

[MasterKiller]

you don't learn all of these forms, and by no means do you even come close to mastering any of these forms
I thought those were the requirements for promotion? :confused:

If you don't need all the forms listed to go from 1st to 2nd Black Belt, what % of them do you need?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Do you feel that learning in such a manner, with such a large curriculum, sets Shaolin Do up for some serious problems once Sin The' is gone? What may very well happen two or three generations down the road is that teachers will pass on their specialities to the neglect of the some of the rest of the curriculm, and their students will do the same, to the point that eventually you have am SD Mantis lineage, and SD Tiger lineage, etc. instead of the complete SD curriculum being taught across the board.

Does this worry any of you SDers?

Yes it does. I think that if something happens to Sin The without a clear successor then there will be a huge rift in the Masters out there and the material that they teach. It's akin to an elder parent dying with several kids. They usually all claim rights to whatever is left and end up destroying any familial bonds in the process.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller

I thought those were the requirements for promotion? :confused:

If you don't need all the forms listed to go from 1st to 2nd Black Belt, what % of them do you need?

From 1st black to second you must learn pa kua and tai chi. You generally learn 4 weapons and 4 empty hand forms, but you have some flexibility in what you learn. Sometimes people will learn 3 tigers and substitue in a mantis form or something like that. It depends on their teachers and what they have picked up along the way.

[MasterKiller]

Do you guys think Sin The' is still learning stuff, or is it your belief that everything he teaches is from his original training as a youth?

[themeecer]

Real quick .. I'm getting ready to go eat. If I'm not mistaken, Grandmaster Sin went back to Indonesia a while back and trained with one of his teachers that is still alive. Grandmaster Ie had a few others helping him teach, and I believe one is still alive. GM Sin had forgotten some forms and went back to brush up on it and quite possibly to learn more forms. But I do believe the bulk of his material was learned as a youth.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Do you guys think Sin The' is still learning stuff, or is it your belief that everything he teaches is from his original training as a youth?

I think he's probably still learning stuff off VIDEOs to compliment his Karate training and then passing it off as stuff he learned from a dog-like shaolin monk.....oh...ooops...did I let the cat out of the bag.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Do you guys think Sin The' is still learning stuff, or is it your belief that everything he teaches is from his original training as a youth?

To be honest, I don't know. I know much of this stuff he taught out very early to a few students so I think that these forms were learned from his youth. His teacher, GM Ie was a student in the temple for a while and then allegedly travelled extensively throughout China before settling in Indonesia.

I hope he is still learning stuff because I think one needs to continue to learn as they go along. It shouldn't be different for a Master. I don't think he is making the stuff up or simply learning a form from a tape or book and then passing it off as his own, but I'm sure that some people will disagree.

I think his emphasis has changed in his teaching. As he has gotten older he seems to focus on internal arts more. I simply don't know what he knows and what he doesn't. I know what I have been taught and I know that I don't have a full understanding of everything that I have been taught yet. I've been at the for 14 years and I just now feel confident with the nuiances of some of the first material that I learned. I practice the newer material that I have been taught with the hope that my understanding will also grow in time.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow


I think he's probably still learning stuff off VIDEOs to compliment his Karate training and then passing it off as stuff he learned from a dog-like shaolin monk.....oh...ooops...did I let the cat out of the bag.

What is your frame of reference for your opinions? I could care less about your comments except you are speaking as if you KNOW SD is fake or karate or whatever. Have you studied it? Have you visited schools and Masters and spoke with accurate representations of the style, or are you just someone who is ****ed off at what they read on the internet and likes to talk crap? I've never said anything bad about another system here so why do you?

I had heard the same thing emecer. I know that Ie had several contemporaies that taught along with Ie. One of these primarily taught his brother Hiang.

[themeecer]

Fu Pow, I was pretty much going to ignore the garbage coming out of your mouth. But I will tell you one thing. You make pretty big assumptions on someone you have never met. You spend a page telling me how my forms are not up to par and how poorly I perform them. That is simply amazing; you must be related to Uri Geiler. If you ever watched me in person I guarantee you I would surprise you with my prowess. (Not saying I am the best or nowhere near the best, just that you are highly underestimating some of us)

It is fruitless to even talk to you; you can’t even have an adult conversation. Even though my initial reactions to MasterKiller, AfricanTiger, and a few others dissing my art were not that high. Since our initial clashings on the boards they have shown they can discuss and debate things in a respectable manner. You sir, do not have that ability.

[norther practitioner]

Well you guys have sort of answered some of my questions....
But I'll ask again this one:
Do you think that conflicting aspects of arts hinder your progress?
etc.. see last post.

[MasterKiller]

Grandmaster Ie had a few others helping him teach Does this mean there are independent lineages operating in Indonesia? What do they call their system if Shaolin-Do was coined in the mid-80s?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
Well you guys have sort of answered some of my questions....
But I'll ask again this one:
Do you think that conflicting aspects of arts hinder your progress?
etc.. see last post.

Not only do I think it can, I think it often does. Hense so many sorry representations of SD out there. I have seen some that do their forms well and you can see a distinguishable difference in their body mechanics but they are rare and they are usually the full time student/teachers. More often I see people that are really good at one type of form, and they make everything else look like their favorite forms.

I know my sifu teaches the nuiances, but I don't always pick them up even after I have learned and can perform the form. Like I said, my beginer material is starting to look like it should and I've been at it 14 years.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Does this mean there are independent lineages operating in Indonesia? What do they call their system if Shaolin-Do was coined in the mid-80s?

I've wondered the same thing. I don't know. I guess you can say that Hiang The is an independant lineage in America. I haven't had anyone answer this question before.

[Fu-Pow]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by themeecer
[B]Fu Pow, I was pretty much going to ignore the garbage coming out of your mouth. But I will tell you one thing. You make pretty big assumptions on someone you have never met.
You spend a page telling me how my forms are not up to par and how poorly I perform them. That is simply amazing; you must be related to Uri Geiler. If you ever watched me in person I guarantee you I would surprise you with my prowess. (Not saying I am the best or nowhere near the best, just that you are highly underestimating some of us)

****You confuse what I say. Obviously, from years of mental brainwashing. Kung fu is as much about individual effort and talent as it is about the particular style that you practice. Within any style there are individuals that come into the training with natural atheltic ability. However, your "style" is convoluted. And those individuals within your organization that have retained those abilities are lucky. Your curriculum does nothing to enhance or improve those innate fighting abilites that we all possess. It is a mishmash of conflicting styles. Put bluntly...those in Shaolin Do are not reaching the full potential that they could by in depth study of a solid, reputable system of learning.

It is fruitless to even talk to you; you can’t even have an adult conversation.

***I'm quite capable. But I don't dance around the obvious trying to spare your ego or be "likeable." I'm telling it like it is. You are wasting your time. We have "saved" other people on this board from wasting there time with this Hong Kong Phooey bull****. Perhaps, we can "save" you too.

Even though my initial reactions to MasterKiller, AfricanTiger, and a few others dissing my art were not that high. Since our initial clashings on the boards they have shown they can discuss and debate things in a respectable manner.

***My intention is not to debate you. I know for a fact that Shaolin Do is crap. Why? Because I learn from some of the most highly sought after lineages and teachers in the world (in Chen Taiji, Xin Yi and Choy Lay Fut). I have been doing MA's long enough to have a frame of reference from which to draw conclusions.

Can you say the same?

You sir, do not have that ability.

***Sorry, if I'm not being polite. But quite frankly, the whole concept of Shaolin Do is offensive. I cut straight to the chase.

Shaolin Do is junk, don't waste anymore time and money.

[Fu-Pow]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Judge Pen
[B]

What is your frame of reference for your opinions?

***My own training.

I could care less about your comments except you are speaking as if you KNOW SD is fake or karate or whatever.

***I can tell by watching the videos on Shaolin Center, the fact that your lineage is so ridiculous as to be laughable, you do kung fu but wear Gi's? and the fact that you teach a mishmash of conflicting styles all taught under one roof. And that's just scratching the surface.

Have you studied it?

***I don't have to have studied it to know it is weak sauce.

Have you visited schools and Masters and spoke with accurate representations of the style, or are you just someone who is ****ed off at what they read on the internet

***I think Shaolin Do is offensive.

and likes to talk crap?

**Just telling it like it is.

I've never said anything bad about another system here so why do you?

***I don't either. But Shaolin Do is not a "system." It is a mishmash. A Chop Suey. A mass marketed pile of dog ****.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Judge Pen
[B]

What is your frame of reference for your opinions?

***My own training.

I could care less about your comments except you are speaking as if you KNOW SD is fake or karate or whatever.

***I can tell by watching the videos on Shaolin Center, the fact that your lineage is so ridiculous as to be laughable, you do kung fu but wear Gi's? and the fact that you teach a mishmash of conflicting styles all taught under one roof. And that's just scratching the surface.

Have you studied it?

***I don't have to have studied it to know it is weak sauce.

Have you visited schools and Masters and spoke with accurate representations of the style, or are you just someone who is ****ed off at what they read on the internet

***I think Shaolin Do is offensive.

and likes to talk crap?

**Just telling it like it is.

I've never said anything bad about another system here so why do you?

***I don't either. But Shaolin Do is not a "system." It is a mishmash. A Chop Suey. A mass marketed pile of dog ****.

Oh I see. A few years of training qualifies you to disrespect mine based upon some forms posted on the internet? A questionable lineage? Read Chinese martial history and much of it is questionable and filled with myths. Be careful you might indicte yourself.

Keep on believeing what ever you want. For a second I thought you may be able to support your opinions. My bad.

[MasterKiller]

I just wish Fu-Pow would learn to close his [quote] tags correctly.

[Fu-Pow]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Judge Pen
[B]

Oh I see. A few years of training qualifies you to disrespect mine based upon some forms posted on the internet?

****Not even comparable.

A questionable lineage? Read Chinese martial history and much of it is questionable and filled with myths.

***For both my styles I can accurately trace things back around 200 years.

Keep on believeing what ever you want. For a second I thought you may be able to support your opinions. My bad.

***I'm just trying to help you suckers out. If you want to keep getting taken then keep at it. Maybe when enough people tell you whats up it'll sink in.

Anyways, good luck with your Stomping Drunken Immortal Form and your Double Straightwords. Both of those look REALLY scary.

I'm waiting for Sin The to come out with a Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon Form...or maybe a Yoda Jedi Sword Form...you know like from the movie where Yoda goes all crazy .

That would be dope.

[shaolinarab]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


I've wondered the same thing. I don't know. I guess you can say that Hiang The is an independant lineage in America. I haven't had anyone answer this question before.

As for lineages, perhaps there were other students of Ie Chang Ming who remained in Southeast Asia and taught kung fu, but who knows. One thing that we have to keep in mind is one of the motives for teaching the system in the way that it is taught. The fukien temple was burned down and the monks dispersed, Great-grandmaster Ie Chang Ming being one of them. While there were many kung fu practioners who studied specific styles outside of the temples and still travelled around to learn other styles or from other teachers, the monks in the temples also learned different styles from one another. Ie chang ming had to flee to Indonesia after he killed soldiers that tried to make him kiss the ground, and a bounty was placed on him. Because this was at a time when the martial arts knowledge from the temples was being threatened, Ie chang ming developed a curriculum to preserve the body of knowledge that he had attained through his teachers. Now whether one believes this story or not is up to him/her, but you have to appreciate the fact that every martial arts style has a geneology that it claims, and some are verifiable and some are just impossible to corroborate. every art has its legends and its claims that a student comes to understand only through serious training. how many of our styles purport chi powers or iron palm abilities that are to be attained with years or decades of training? how do you guys think that would sound if you were debating in a forum with aggressive skeptics who just dismissed anything you said without evidence?
The fact is that there are pictures of Ie Chang Ming with Grandmaster Sin The as well as his brother Hiang The. While the extent of their education under Ie Chang Ming wasn't exactly the same (both in terms of time and instruction by other teachers), you have two men who are now in the US teaching similar systems (but different). If anyone is curious just browse the web for Hiang The and u will come across Central Shaolin schools of Kentucky. You will notice that his senior students are also specialists in specific styles though they have a similar training base to that of Shaolin-do students. So for all those skeptical, this must then be one of the greatest conspiracies in the history of SHAOLIN for two chinese brothers to come from Indonesia to teach kung fu! if you're still skeptical, do a little research, and you will find pictures of Grandmaster sin the with senior students in front of pillars that were erected for them at the temples in both Hunan and Fukien province. If you can read Chinese, you will see that they are commemorating grandmaster sin for his preservation of shaolin arts. one of the reasons is that sin the had demonstrating specific forms that the monks thought were lost to them when the fukien temple was last destroyed, besides the fact that he had carried out the legacy of a former temple monk. perhaps the skeptics would argue that the monks were just naive about the futility of sin the's applications of the forms. to those, there is just nothing more i can say. the bottom line for me is that i dont care if you don't like a specific art, but how can one try to attack it or one of its practioners so antagonisticly and yet call himself a traditional martial artist that is supposed to espouse ancient martial codes and ethics. you almost remind me of the kobrakai guys in karate kid!
below is a brief description of sin the's teacher. if you want to check out about HIS teacher (who's picture will be interesting to those who are at all familiar with where the werewolf legend comes from, just go to www.shaolincenter.com and click on lineage. i think it's important for anyone interested in this debate to understand why it's called DO, why we where gi's, why Sin The called his place Karate gym, etc. also keep in mind that when shaolin-do advertises itself as coming from a legacy preserving the shaolin arts, it means preserving the shaolin arts as they were taught in the fukien temple and as learned by the elder grandmasters before the temple's destruction. it is not claiming to be the sole preserver of kung fu or the way the styles were taught everywhere else in China.
From the website: "Ie Chang Ming inherited the immense body of Shaolin knowledge as a master at the Fukien temple and received the Grand Master title after the burning of the last temple from Great Grand Master Su Kong Tai Djin. Grand Master Ming left China and settled in Bandung, Indonesia where he began to teach the Shaolin art. In Indonesia a law was passed prohibiting the teaching of Chinese Martial Arts. Grand Master Ie circumvented this law by adopting many of the trappings of the Japanese styles of martial arts. He changed the name from Shaolin Tao to Shaolin Do. He changed the uniforms from the classical Chinese styles to the Japanese karate gi's. He also used Japanese belts instead of the Chinese sash and instituted a ranking system similar to the Japanese using Japanese names. The changes, although cosmetic, were enough for the authorities and he was allowed to continue to teach. It was not easy to become a student of Grand Master Ie. There was a long waiting line and each prospective student had to prove their worthiness to receive training from him. Although no one knew it at the time, Grand Master Ie's exile was important to the preservation of the Shaolin Art. His rigorous training standards and teaching maintained the true tradition of Shaolin. Yet, his flexibility, in modifying the outward trappings of the art, ensured that Shaolin Tao would not be lost."

[Brad]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by MasterKiller
Does this mean there are independent lineages operating in Indonesia? What do they call their system if Shaolin-Do was coined in the mid-80s?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I've wondered the same thing. I don't know. I guess you can say that Hiang The is an independant lineage in America. I haven't had anyone answer this question before.
I thought Hiang used a different name for what he did... based on some sort of bird or something... I think it was talked about in one of the old shaolin-do threads on the Shaolin forum. Good luck finding the post though, lol

[MasterKiller]

and you will find pictures of Grandmaster sin the with senior students in front of pillars that were erected for them at the temples in both Hunan and Fukien province. Donating money to a temple to get a slab of stone erected is hardly the honor you associate with it.

People here have translated that stone, and it does not say what you claim it does.

And everyone knows the Soards paid to have it erected in the first place.


So for all those skeptical, this must then be one of the greatest conspiracies in the history of SHAOLIN for two chinese brothers to come from Indonesia to teach kung fu!If they weren't related, and trained at different times, it might add credence to your claims. The fact that they are so closely tied together suggests a conspiracy on their part, not Shaolin's.

[Radhnoti]

I know that the first slab has a dedication (in English...no need for "translation") to GM Sin from his students (the Soard branch I believe). Used to not be a big deal to have a tablet...when the temple was struggling they'd take most anyone as I understand it. There's even supposed to be a TKD school's tablet.
There's also a tablet in Chen village to GM Sin, again from his students.

[Ground Dragon]

From what I understand, the tablet was first bought by the Soards on a trip they took without Sin. The first inscription was bascially a generic reference to their trip to Shaolin, then when they travelled there with Sin later on, they had another inscription added, which again was basically a generic reference to their trip to Shaolin. Hardly an item that declares anything at all. Especially since it was paid for. Used to be able to find pictures of the inscription on the net.
As far as the lineage, Hiang and Sin are completely separate as far as affiliation, but teach a lot of the same stuff, and a lot of different stuff too. They taught separately in this country at first and at different points along the way. They did teach together at some points also. They have been completely separate for a while now.
There is only one major teacher still alive in Indonesia at the time that I know of but I'm no expert on it. The style was called Chung Yen Shaolin in Indonesia. And if Sin has been going back and learning additional material, I have to ask why? According to the history he has put out, including his book, he learned his 950 forms in 10 years back when he was young, before he ever left for the US.

[Ground Dragon]

sorry for the double post, computer freaked out for a minute

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Brad

I thought Hiang used a different name for what he did... based on some sort of bird or something... I think it was talked about in one of the old shaolin-do threads on the Shaolin forum. Good luck finding the post though, lol

Brad

Hiang calls his style Central Shaolin, and the curriculims are similar. Hiang's Master was in the Tai Pang system which I was told was great bird. SD has some of these forms, but not all of them. There is some overlap and some things that Hiang teaches and some things that Sin teaches. I don't know if Sin has everything that Hinag has or Hiang has everything that Sin does. Since they have split, it's considered disrepectful to discuss their family history which I can understand people not wanting their family disagreements made part of a public forum. The point is that they did share some of the same teachers and learned some of the same stuff.

Ground Dragon, who studied under Hiang and Bill Leonard, has some good insights on this even if I don't always agree with him.

Master Sin's certificate says that his Master is in the Golden Snake system which, to my knowledge, he has never even taught the first form.

As for the stomping immortal drunk, that form wasn't invented. The form is of Chung Li Ch'uan and there are CMA who study these forms outside of SD. Heck, Jacki Chan had a movie about it and I doubt they consulted Sin The'. :)

[crazymaddrunk]

to ghthomason-

how can you talk about anyone? look at your system: you say there are 10 Shaolin long forms, and of course, you don't have the names for them because your teacher learned from a KOREAN...how many Korean Shaolin temples are there?

mixing wushu with Shaolin? why would you do that? I think it's because you need to learn from some CHINESE teachers for your bogus claims of learning Shaolin #1, Shaolin #2...LOL

what a crock! look at his website, folks...

http://www.kungfu-wushu.com/

[cho]

Originally posted by themeecer
This is probably going to sound rude, but I know no other way to say it. Simply, we don't have people holding our hands on our road to mastery.
my original point was that how can someone who specializes in "tiger" be expected to teach a rookie "mantis" when tiger-guy doesn't know the subtleties of "mantis". It's like if someone learns the two empty hand sets of WingChung, sifu expects the student to learn the third on his own. well, it's a different style, but I hope the point still stands.


I feel like I am at a buffet, I take what I want and leave what I don't want.
But how do you know you're not missing out on something, unless your teacher is there to "hold your hand" ?


On a completely irrelevant note, anyone notice how Shaolin-Do schools are mainly located in the midwest outside of striking distance (pun intended) of the "big" kungfu schools on the east and west coast?

[joedoe]

I was going to make some joke about the quality of buffet food, but I won't :D

[shaolin kungfu]

This one time, I went to a buffet and found a chicken foot in the mashed patatoes.

[Brad]

mixing wushu with Shaolin? why would you do that?
One might ask the same thing of Shaolin-Do. You guys do have the most widely practiced contemporary wushu form in existence listed on your curriculum ;)

[themeecer]

Which would be?

[brothernumber9]

Sin The's legacy is that of a shaolin monk as his immediate predecessor and another monk was the predecessor to him. One monk was named Ie Chang Ming and the other was Su Kong Dai Djin. One monk has three names while the other has four. Did these monks revert to using thier birth names? What do these names mean? are they nicknames kinda like Shi Guolin is known as the iron arhat? I could be wrong since I am not a chan buddhist, don't know or read chinese, but I thought upon indoctrination, monks were shed of thier old name and given a new one no more than two names/characters long and that this has been so for at least hundreds of years. How old is grandmaster Ie? is he still alive? if he is he must be at least 85 (assuming he was at least 10 when the alleged temple was allegedly burned). If no one knows then thats understandable since it was so long ago and so much has happened since then as is evident how other systems become so convoluted(sp?) after only one generation.

[brothernumber9]

Sin The's legacy is that of a shaolin monk as his immediate predecessor and another monk was the predecessor to him. One monk was named Ie Chang Ming and the other was Su Kong Dai Djin. One monk has three names while the other has four. Did these monks revert to using thier birth names? What do these names mean? are they nicknames kinda like Shi Guolin is known as the iron arhat? I could be wrong since I am not a chan buddhist, don't know or read chinese, but I thought upon indoctrination, monks were shed of thier old name and given a new one no more than two names/characters long and that this has been so for at least hundreds of years. How old is grandmaster Ie? is he still alive? if he is he must be at least 85 (assuming he was at least 10 when the alleged temple was allegedly burned). If no one knows then thats understandable since it was so long ago and so much has happened since then as is evident how other systems become so convoluted(sp?) after only one generation.

[Brad]

Which would be?
24 form Taijiquan

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by brothernumber9
Sin The's legacy is that of a shaolin monk as his immediate predecessor and another monk was the predecessor to him. One monk was named Ie Chang Ming and the other was Su Kong Dai Djin. One monk has three names while the other has four. Did these monks revert to using thier birth names? What do these names mean? are they nicknames kinda like Shi Guolin is known as the iron arhat? I could be wrong since I am not a chan buddhist, don't know or read chinese, but I thought upon indoctrination, monks were shed of thier old name and given a new one no more than two names/characters long and that this has been so for at least hundreds of years. How old is grandmaster Ie? is he still alive? if he is he must be at least 85 (assuming he was at least 10 when the alleged temple was allegedly burned). If no one knows then thats understandable since it was so long ago and so much has happened since then as is evident how other systems become so convoluted(sp?) after only one generation.

I can't help on your name question as I don't know myself. Grandmaster Ie is deceased. He passed in 1976.

[MasterKiller]

Grandmaster Ie is deceased. He passed in 1976. Well, if not for anything else, Shaolin-Do helped that guy live a long time. What was he, like 96 when he died?

Anyway, where is the closest SD school to Oklahoma City? I guess I need to go check out a school sometime, or at least see some decent guys in action.

Are there any in Dallas?

Do you guys ever compete in non-SD tournaments?

[Ray Pina]

I'm still curious to know where the Ba Gua and Hsing-I comes from?

You have to understand, as someone studying these arts, the idea of "Well, today we're studying mantis and next week we'll do Hung Gar, and get ready class, next month you'll learn Ba Gua -- but we have to move quickly, because I'd like you to know Hsing-I before the year is out," is preposterous!

If you are happy with what you are learning, great! But be honest with yourself. If you have found one art that you really like, and you are putting all this time into your training anyway, why not go and find someone who specializes in that? If there is no other training availbale in your area, just say that. Say this is all I have for now.

But to pass off Ba Gua as something that you learn between hash marks on a belt is laughable I'm sure to folks on here like Count and Black Toaist who have committed themselves to that art ... probabbly insulting. You're telling me you're learning Hsing-I in passing and I already want to jump through the screen (not to mention many of those arts contradict each other!)

If you go to summer camp, you may play kick ball one day, tennis the next, a little basket ball on Sat., swim, shoot an arrow ... There is a big difference between fooling around and working for an athletic scholorship. Focus! I don't believe combat is a broad study. The devil is in the details. Everything else is just the outside dance.

I know this rounds rude. And I'm sorry for that. You're training is your business. It's hard to know if someone is lying for sure, but you can see holes in a story. This whole SD seems like a big net. Are you caught up in it?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Well, if not for anything else, Shaolin-Do helped that guy live a long time. What was he, like 96 when he died?

Anyway, where is the closest SD school to Oklahoma City? I guess I need to go check out a school sometime, or at least see some decent guys in action.

Are there any in Dallas?

Do you guys ever compete in non-SD tournaments?

There's none in Oklahoma, but there are several in Texas. I'm not sure which would be closest to you. Arlington? Austin?

I don't compete in very many tournaments. I've been in three since I was a brown sash. Most of mine have been open tournaments where I have fought mainly non-SD people.

I don't know if anyone else competes in other tournaments.

[MasterKiller]

Arlington is close to Dallas, about 3 hours from me.

Austin is about 8 hours from OKC, if the traffic is light.

Next time I'm in Dallas, I'll try to poke my head in on a class. Do you know if that instructor or his students are a pretty good example for me to watch? PM me if you don't wanna discuss it here.

[BentMonk]

It amazes me how so many people can be so quick to discredit and ridicule another persons MA based soley on the existing prejudices they learned studying their own MA. Everyone thinks that the style they practice is the best. If they didn't, why would they study it? I see many people questioning the claims of Grandmaster Sin Kwang The' and Shaolin Do. However, after a weeks worth of browsing past threads and posts, I rarely see anyone elses art being attacked by so many, or with such fervor. The loudest dissenters of Shaolin Do would say that lends credibility to their argument. However, after reading all of the posts concerning Shaolin Do I find that there a some interesting common denomenators. It is always the same individuals who shout the loudest against Shaolin Do. None of these individuals, unless WaterDragon is to be believed, have actually set foot inside a Shaolin Do school. If they had, they would know that there are not only many accomplished martial artists present, but many skilled fighters as well. I have used my Shaolin Do training to protect myself in a very real fight...I won. At this point I will note that I have Cerebral Palsy and cannot kick. Master John Price, of Louisville Shaolin Do is my teacher. He did not teach me a "watered down mish mash" of stolen techniques. He taught me the very real art of Shaolin Do as he learned it from Grandmaster Sin Kwang The', "the art of survival, not of sport." I will also add that I have competed in open, non-disabled MA tournaments. I've won, and placed there as well. Not too shabby for a guy who can't walk straight, and practices a supposedly bogus art. As to the assumption that the monuments at the Shaolin Temple were simply purchased for Grandmaster Sin...use some common sense people. The Shaolin Temple is a tourist attraction as well as a school now. That means they are trying to turn a profit. So is every other person teaching any ma. What you all fail to grasp, and wouldn't know about unless you've traveled to China with Grandmaster Sin, is the amount of respect he is shown by the Temple, and the entire Chinese MA population. Grandmaster Sin's students may have payed for the materials used to make the monuments, but the level of respect shown to Grandmaster Sin by the temple's Chief Abbot was not purchased. To clear up another matter concerning the monuments, the one at Chen village does not simply comemmorate Grandmaster Sin's visit. It celebrates Grandmaster Sin's preservation of a Chen Tai Chi Fan form. Again, the materials may have been paid for, but the respect and awe of the villagers after Grandmaster Sin demonstrated the form they thought lost, was not. I am not surprised at the attitudes displayed on the internet. Anonymity and the arrogance of the Western mind make for interesting and amusing reading. This post is going to get flamed. I won't reply. I've said my piece. I know the truth of my art because I have seen and used it with my own eyes and hands. This is the same perspective from which everyone views the art they practice. Nowhere in these words have I made a single derrogatory remark about another style of ma. True martial artists would show ALL styles the same courtesy. I wish everyone luck and happiness in their training, whatever the style.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
I'm still curious to know where the Ba Gua and Hsing-I comes from?

You have to understand, as someone studying these arts, the idea of "Well, today we're studying mantis and next week we'll do Hung Gar, and get ready class, next month you'll learn Ba Gua -- but we have to move quickly, because I'd like you to know Hsing-I before the year is out," is preposterous!

If you are happy with what you are learning, great! But be honest with yourself. If you have found one art that you really like, and you are putting all this time into your training anyway, why not go and find someone who specializes in that? If there is no other training availbale in your area, just say that. Say this is all I have for now.

But to pass off Ba Gua as something that you learn between hash marks on a belt is laughable I'm sure to folks on here like Count and Black Toaist who have committed themselves to that art ... probabbly insulting. You're telling me you're learning Hsing-I in passing and I already want to jump through the screen (not to mention many of those arts contradict each other!)

If you go to summer camp, you may play kick ball one day, tennis the next, a little basket ball on Sat., swim, shoot an arrow ... There is a big difference between fooling around and working for an athletic scholorship. Focus! I don't believe combat is a broad study. The devil is in the details. Everything else is just the outside dance.

I know this rounds rude. And I'm sorry for that. You're training is your business. It's hard to know if someone is lying for sure, but you can see holes in a story. This whole SD seems like a big net. Are you caught up in it?

I don't think your coming off as rude, but things aren't as accelerated as you suspect. I know the form of classical 8 palm changes Pa Kua. It took me two years to learn the form properly. I said to learn the form not to master the form, its applications, and all the nuiances. There are details I still haven't worked out and I've looked into visiting a non-SD class that specializes in Pa Kua and see how they do it and if there are things that contradict what I have been taught. If so, what can I pick up to make myself better. The problem is that there aren't many options available where I live.

I am learning Hsing-I. I know the motions to the 5 elements and the 5 element linkage form. I have been taught 1/2 of a two-man set and I am trying to learn the 12 animal forms. I'm not even close yet although I can do the motions. I plan to continue to learn Pa Kua and Hsing I until I drop over and I may not get it then.

I have utmost respect for Black Taoist and I have visited his sight for information. I'm not representing that I know it all simply because I have been put on the path and shown the techniques and the basics. I am a work in progress. What is wrong with that?

[Judge Pen]

Nice to see that you finally posted. :)

[Ray Pina]

BentMonk and Judge Pen, I'm truly sorry. I'm man enough to say when I over stepped my bounds. You both present yourself with the best martial arts should instill in a practioner. I'm sorry.

Best to you and your training. And I'd be honored to compare techniques someday if I'm ever near your organization.

[Fu-Pow]

It amazes me how so many people can be so quick to discredit and ridicule another persons MA based soley on the existing prejudices they learned studying their own MA. Everyone thinks that the style they practice is the best. If they didn't, why would they study it?

****Your argument is a red herring. We're not trying to discredit Shaolin Do because we see it as an "inferior" art. What we're saying is that it is not it's OWN art to begin with. It's Chop Suey. These are two different arguments. Other reputable arts interact with each other and compete against each other in open tournaments. Shaolin Do has "internal" tournaments?!! It reminds me of Chung Moo Do/Oom Yung Doe. It's totally closed to scrutiny. This raises big red flags.

I see many people questioning the claims of Grandmaster Sin Kwang The' and Shaolin Do. However, after a weeks worth of browsing past threads and posts, I rarely see anyone elses art being attacked by so many, or with such fervor.

****And did it ever occur to you why that might be????

The loudest dissenters of Shaolin Do would say that lends credibility to their argument.

****It does.

However, after reading all of the posts concerning Shaolin Do I find that there a some interesting common denomenators. It is always the same individuals who shout the loudest against Shaolin Do. None of these individuals, unless WaterDragon is to be believed, have actually set foot inside a Shaolin Do school.

***Which proves nothing.

If they had, they would know that there are not only many accomplished martial artists present, but many skilled fighters as well.

***There will always be "naturals." Too bad they are wasting their potential.

I have used my Shaolin Do training to protect myself in a very real fight...I won. At this point I will note that I have Cerebral Palsy and cannot kick.

***Is that supposed to make us feel sorry for you?

Master John Price, of Louisville Shaolin Do is my teacher. He did not teach me a "watered down mish mash" of stolen techniques. He taught me the very real art of Shaolin Do as he learned it from Grandmaster Sin Kwang The', "the art of survival, not of sport."

***Do you write their brochures for them or what?

I will also add that I have competed in open, non-disabled MA tournaments. I've won, and placed there as well. Not too shabby for a guy who can't walk straight, and practices a supposedly bogus art.

***Are making this **** up? We have a guy who is half-blind and has cerebral palsy at my school too. People like to see him perform and they clap real loud for him but we would never send him out as a representative of our art.


As to the assumption that the monuments at the Shaolin Temple were simply purchased for Grandmaster Sin...use some common sense people. The Shaolin Temple is a tourist attraction as well as a school now. That means they are trying to turn a profit. So is every other person teaching any ma.

***Actually no. Shaolin and Shaolin Do are the ones trying to make a bunch of money.

What you all fail to grasp, and wouldn't know about unless you've traveled to China with Grandmaster Sin, is the amount of respect he is shown by the Temple, and the entire Chinese MA population.

***Huge respect...so that he'll buy another stone slab.

Grandmaster Sin's students may have payed for the materials used to make the monuments, but the level of respect shown to Grandmaster Sin by the temple's Chief Abbot was not purchased. To clear up another matter concerning the monuments, the one at Chen village does not simply comemmorate Grandmaster Sin's visit. It celebrates Grandmaster Sin's preservation of a Chen Tai Chi Fan form.

***That cost extra.

Again, the materials may have been paid for, but the respect and awe of the villagers after Grandmaster Sin demonstrated the form they thought lost, was not.

***Not lost. They'd never seen it before because it's made up.

I am not surprised at the attitudes displayed on the internet. Anonymity and the arrogance of the Western mind make for interesting and amusing reading.

***You mean the clarity and ability to bust through bull**** of the western mind?

This post is going to get flamed. I won't reply. I've said my piece. I know the truth of my art because I have seen and used it with my own eyes and hands. This is the same perspective from which everyone views the art they practice. Nowhere in these words have I made a single derrogatory remark about another style of ma. True martial artists would show ALL styles the same courtesy. I wish everyone luck and happiness in their training, whatever the style. [/B][/QUOTE]

***Shaolin Do is not a style!!! Repeat. Shaolin Do is not a style!!!!

[BentMonk]

To EvolutionFist - Thank you. To see those qualities in another is to possess them yourself. It is good to know that honor, integrity, and simple politeness are not completely absent in cyberspace. If you are ever in KY, Louisville or Lexington to be specific, please visit. Peace.

[cho]

Originally posted by BentMonk
is the amount of respect he is shown by the Temple, and the entire Chinese MA population. ....the level of respect shown to Grandmaster Sin by the temple's Chief Abbot was not purchased.
what do you mean by respect? being able to take a picture with Shi Yongxin ? when they say the tablet was to honor Thé, I think they meant to respect him for his donation, not "honor as the true sole heir to the entire martial arts of Shaolin".

if SD really is respected by the entire CMA population, how come NO OTHER school acknowledges it as a real style? think about that. There have been CMA rivalries in the past, like WingChun & ChoyLayFut, but they would still say their rival is a martial art.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
BentMonk and Judge Pen, I'm truly sorry. I'm man enough to say when I over stepped my bounds. You both present yourself with the best martial arts should instill in a practioner. I'm sorry.

Best to you and your training. And I'd be honored to compare techniques someday if I'm ever near your organization.

I would be honored as well.

[BentMonk]

Fu Pow - No I did not mention the fact that I have a disability to receive sympathy from you or anyone else for that matter. The fact that you also train with someone who has a disability but "would never send him out as a representative" of your art is a grievous insult to your fellow student. You make it sound as if he is simply going through the motions of your art. I'd be willing to bet he doesn't see his training that way. You imply that he has learned nothing that would be of use to him, aside from making him feel good about himself, and giving the crowd something to smile at. If that is truly all he has gained from training with you, then your instructor has done him a huge disservice. As to my own accomplishments, no they were not made up. I train very very hard. I may walk funny but rest assured I can physically back up ANY claim made in my previous post. My arms and hands work quite well. My black belt was EARNED, not handed to me because my instructor thought it would make me feel good. As for the rest of your reply to my post, it was simply more of your favorite song. You have no evidence with which to substantiate your assurtion that Shaolin Do is "not a style". The passion with which you make your arguments, repetitive as they may be, leads me to think that you feel threatened by the existence of Shaolin Do. Why else would you rant so loudly, but have no facts upon which to base your indignance? The derisive tone of your posts, coupled by your obvious lack of respect for anyone outside your own art are a wonderful example of the "arrogance of the Western mind". One more thing about your disabled classmate, I hope you treat him with more respect to his face than you did in your post. If he ever wants to learn something he can use, and to be treated as an equal instead of a novelty, tell him to email me. I know a great place for him to study. Good luck in life and training.

[themeecer]

Fu-Pow, your last post has lowered you in my mind even more; people like you sicken me.


Originally posted by Evolution Fist
You have to understand, as someone studying these arts, the idea of "Well, today we're studying mantis and next week we'll do Hung Gar, and get ready class, next month you'll learn Ba Gua -- but we have to move quickly, because I'd like you to know Hsing-I before the year is out," is preposterous!
LOL, I would agree with you there as well. Pa Qua is definitely not something you rush through. I have had the form and our set of basic techniques from this for most of my martial arts career, and I am still actively working on it. I am still working on the evading principles inherent in 'walking the circle.'

Some SD schools teach at a much accelerated pace than we do at my school, but I don't think anyone rushes through Pau Qua so they can get Hsing I in that same year. They are not even material of the same belt rank.

Bottom line is, I agree with you. It is impossible to get the nuances of a system or even an individual form in passing. I don't make the mistake of saying I know the Pau Qua system, but I do know the form. And I am gaining ground on learning the system.



Originally posted by Bent Monk
It amazes me how so many people can be so quick to discredit and ridicule another persons MA based soley on the existing prejudices they learned studying their own MA.
Hey man, I think I know you. I haven't been to one of our tourny's in years but I think I have footage of you on video tape. Do you have black hair that might have been grown into a pony tail at one time? (Not sure on this, don't have the video in front of me.) Nice play on the screen name there, I like it. Good to see you on the boards.


Originally posted by Brad
24 form Taijiquan

Oh ok, you have one on me there. I'm not familiar with that form. I only have the Yang style and the very beginning of the Lee style. What’s the story behind it? Is it a more modern version?

[MasterKiller]

themeecer,
The 24-step is the Yang form. It was invented in 1956.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
themeecer,
The 24-step is the Yang form. It was invented in 1956. There is some confusion here. My Yang style has 64 movements, not 24. And if I'm not mistaken it was developed in the mid 1800's by a poor bricklayer who observed the classes of a Ch'en patriarch. That is much older than 1956.

I did just find this on the Atlanta SD site:


Shao-lin Combination 24 Form:
Tai Ji Quan Er Shi Si Shi
Shao-Lin Combination "24" Form combines essential elements from various Shao-Lin Tai Ji long forms. It is a shorter, faster moving form compared to other Shao-Lin forms.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by themeecer
There is some confusion here. My Yang style has 64 movements, not 24. And if I'm not mistaken it was developed in the mid 1800's by a poor bricklayer who observed the classes of a Ch'en patriarch. That is much older than 1956.

I did just find this on the Atlanta SD site:



24 is Yang 24 and it is the same as the wushu form. Get a book and compare the postures and they are the same.

[MasterKiller]

Well, there are lots of Yang forms these days. The 24-step and 88-step were standardized in 1956 by the PRC. I believe the 108-step is the original form, but I'm no expert on Tai Chi.

10 - Form (1999)
16 - Form (1999)
24 - Form (1956)
40 - Form (1989)
88 - Form (1956)

[norther practitioner]

Yeah, you guys have to remember there can be huge differences between when a form was standardized and when it was made.

[BentMonk]

TheMeecer - Yes, that is probably me on your video. I started SD in '94. I looked like a hobbling hippie back then. lol Thanks for the kind words as well. You should come to the next SD tournament. It's Sept. 20. I'll be there for sure. I've been really training hard. I hope it pays off. Brown and Black Belt sparring is going to be non-stop instead of point. There should be some great matches. I hope to see you there.

[TjD]

Originally posted by themeecer


All this indicates are the forms that are taught from first to second degree. Nowhere does it even hint at a mastery of these. How is this instant? We learn the forms and we spend the rest of our life working on them. If we find something that we really like, then we could choose to specialize in it. Just because a university offers hundreds of classes, it doesn't mean they are handing out PhD's instantly.


specialize in it how? doesn't the knowledge for learning the system have to come from somewhere? does your sifu (or do you SD guys call them sensei? JK) have mastery? if he doesn't why not just go to a kung fu school where someone has dedicated most of their life to that style? instead of guessing and learning it half-assed on your own from some form that was just shown to you?

a university offers hundreds of classes because they have many many trained professionals (professors) who have spend a LONG LONG time and a LOT of effort learning their various fields of study. would i want to go learn shakespearian theatre from a computer science professor?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by BentMonk
TheMeecer - Yes, that is probably me on your video. I started SD in '94. I looked like a hobbling hippie back then. lol Thanks for the kind words as well. You should come to the next SD tournament. It's Sept. 20. I'll be there for sure. I've been really training hard. I hope it pays off. Brown and Black Belt sparring is going to be non-stop instead of point. There should be some great matches. I hope to see you there.

I'll be there as well as SD. I'm still contemplating whether I'll fight. It depends on how my knee is feeling, but I'll probably fight.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by TjD



specialize in it how? doesn't the knowledge for learning the system have to come from somewhere? does your sifu (or do you SD guys call them sensei? JK) have mastery? if he doesn't why not just go to a kung fu school where someone has dedicated most of their life to that style? instead of guessing and learning it half-assed on your own from some form that was just shown to you?

a university offers hundreds of classes because they have many many trained professionals (professors) who have spend a LONG LONG time and a LOT of effort learning their various fields of study. would i want to go learn shakespearian theatre from a computer science professor?

Often times a student will then seek out one of the Masters that has specialized in one of those forms, like emecer's sifu Bob Green.

[themeecer]

Oh I'm planning on being at this tourny as well. So far that is Judge Pen, Shaolin-Do, Bent Monk, themeecer, and of course Grandmaster Sin The'. :D We will all have to get a group photo with Master Sin.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by themeecer
Oh I'm planning on being at this tourny as well. So far that is Judge Pen, Shaolin-Do, Bent Monk, themeecer, and of course Grandmaster Sin The'. :D We will all have to get a group photo with Master Sin.

Rahdnoti said he would try to be there and I'll bet Evade will be there too. We can post the picture here to stir up the hornet's nest! :D

[Ralphie]

Will you all be sporting mullets? Just kidding. I don't know why people are so up in arms about all this. There may be some fair criticisms of SD as presented to the public, but if you don't practice, who cares? People get different things out of martial arts, and obviously SD provides that for some people. I started off doing SD, but had many concerns and questions that made it easy for me to leave. That being said I don't have anything bad to say about the instructors, they were nice people. So, in essense, to the bashers, let it go and be happy you're studying something that brings significance to your life. Also, there seems to be formats that would allow you to challenge the SD practitioners. It also seems like some SD guys here wouldn't mind a challenge match either.

[shaolinarab]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


Rahdnoti said he would try to be there and I'll bet Evade will be there too. We can post the picture here to stir up the hornet's nest! :D

Hey, don't ya'll forget about the arab! as long as i'm not falling behind in med school, i definitely plan to make the trek from new orleans to Lexington so that I can see the faces hiding behind these screen names :D

as for those questioning the practicality of studying SD and choosing a specialty: to wonder how we can learn the nuances of a particular art after spending so many years in SD is a valid question. I can tell you my take on it. If after several years (5, 10, 15?) I decide that I really liked praying mantis and wanted to explore it more thoroughly, assuming that there is not SD mantis specialist around (which i expect), i will go and seek a praying mantis teacher. Will my time spent in Shaolin-do be a waste? Of course not! before i explain why, let me first state that I first started CMA at the University of Chicago 3 years ago under the late Raymond Ming Loy (7 star mantis for those of you northern practioners that dont know him), and I loved it, especially Bung Po Kuen. I admire the great power, practicality, and footwork in the style, which is why I look forward to having the opportunity to study praying mantis forms in SD. At this point, I've learned introductory forms from tiger and shaolin bird, among other smaller forms. I relish in the opportunity to be able to explore the different philosophies and techniques (but on a more elementary level at this point, obviously) of different animal styles, and not just in forms, but in the self-defense and tan tui techniques we learn as well. We correlate different strikes taken from forms with the other techniques and exercises we practice. Later, we build on them as we explore more forms from different styles. As Sifu Carl Albright explains on his 7 star mantis website, as styles have evolved over time they have incorporated forms from other styles, but does that make them foreign to the adoptive style/system? Not necessarily he argues, because that system will give that form a new dynamic and new understanding of its applications based on the style's respective theory and framework. Just take a look at the way bung po is performed by different mantis styles/schools as well as students from the same lineage. Moreover, ask each of them for the applications to the different parts of the forms and they will all tell you differently. Thus, inevitably, when we SD folks study forms from, say, mantis, we will give a different dynamic and understanding of its applications to them then someone from a mantis school based upon our respective training bases. does that make our martial understanding of mantis inherently wrong? absolutely not. will we have the same depth of understanding on how to completely fight like a mantis as a mantis practitioner? definitely not, but we're not trying to learn how to fight solely 'as a mantis.'
and that's the point. we have a different approach in our exploration of CMA. We learn what we can from different forms and constantly improve and reflect upon our foundations. this will lead to a deep personal understanding of how we can apply our body in the act of defense, how we can exercise the body, and how we can discipline the mind. If we get to a point where we're too ill to engage in sparring or fights, etc, we will always have our diverse forms that we can engage in no matter where we are, or who we are with. That is the essence of Shaolin-do.
as for me, should i decide down the road that i want to study (specialize) in a specific style, then I will simply seek a teacher who specializes in that style. I can tell you right now, I've always had 2 goals in the martial arts, first to study CMA, and then to study aikido for various reasons. And I definitely plan on studying Aikido thoroughly one day. It will just build on the strong foundation that I will have gained from SD. No doubt, it will be a different foundation than the next guy who enters aikido after spending an equal amount of time studying seven star praying mantis kung fu, but will one of us be at a disadvantage because of the path we chose? ABSOLUTELY not, the only thing that will separate us will be how we personally chose to engage in and study our arts.

[Brad]

Technically, 24 form is not Yang style, it is a combined form, though it has an overall Yang style look. There's some Sun style influence in it as well. It was put together in 1956 by a comitee headed by Li Tian Ji a well known Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji master. I think he learned his Sun style directly from the creater Sun Lu Tang. Li was also one of my teacher's teachers.

The first known Yang form is the 108 form put together by Yang Cheng Fu, but it's also counted a bunch of different ways. In China a lot of people call it the 85 form Yang style.


Originally posted by themeecer
There is some confusion here. My Yang style has 64 movements, not 24. And if I'm not mistaken it was developed in the mid 1800's by a poor bricklayer who observed the classes of a Ch'en patriarch. That is much older than 1956.

I did just find this on the Atlanta SD site:
Are talking about the 64 or 24 form being developed in the mid 1800's? That sounds like a variation of the Yang Lu Chan story. Poor kid being taken in as a servant by Chen familly, spying on them practicing their taiji, eventually being taught the Chen style then deveolping it into Yang style, etc. etc.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shao-lin Combination 24 Form:
Tai Ji Quan Er Shi Si Shi
Shao-Lin Combination "24" Form combines essential elements from various Shao-Lin Tai Ji long forms. It is a shorter, faster moving form compared to other Shao-Lin forms.
Since JP confirmed which form it is, then this historical blurb is pretty off. First of all, what the heck is Shaolin Taiji? Also, as far as I can tell, 24 form combines two styles, Yang and Sun along with modifications/simplifications for health, and both styles are familly styles, pretty far removed from Shaolin(esp. Sun).

[The Willow Sword]

if you have seen praying mantis and studied it before SD and you havent seen SD praying mantis? You are gonna be very dissapointed as i was when i first learned SD tang lang tse ju and bong bo. its karate mantis and has NOTHING to do with real PM kung fu. and before SD i was doing mantis as well and thought that i could continue it in the same or at least a similar fashion. didnt work like that at all.

TWS

[crazymaddrunk]

Wilted Sword, stop beeing a geak...you're all of what? 17 years old and KNOW IT ALL...LOL

your profile says: Humbly walking the path the best way i know how....you're not humble at all you puss-bag of crap

[shaolinarab]

Originally posted by The Willow Sword
if you have seen praying mantis and studied it before SD and you havent seen SD praying mantis? You are gonna be very dissapointed as i was when i first learned SD tang lang tse ju and bong bo. its karate mantis and has NOTHING to do with real PM kung fu. and before SD i was doing mantis as well and thought that i could continue it in the same or at least a similar fashion. didnt work like that at all.

TWS

FYI, I have actually learned Tse Tsua Chuan- Pick and Play Fist, and in a few weeks I shall be learning Luo Han Chuan, which I have already seen during testing. The former has various pressure point and hand strikes that you find in praying mantis, while the latter has the quick and agile footwork found in typical mantis forms, and I am indeed looking forward to it.
And what the hell is karate mantis? i am aware of animal techniques found in karate, especially white crane, which served as an important foundation to it, but you must tell me more about it since you are an expert on what 'real mantis' is. I'd like to see the Japanese perspective on it. incidentally, in kuk sool won (korean), the mantis claw is done slightly different then in kung fu.
And thanks for the inverted thumbs up. as crazymaddrunk rightly pointed out, it demonstrates the humble path that you fragilely tread.
If you read my earlier posts you would know that I research a place and an art before I study it. I also know what I am getting into and how forms are taught in SD; that is why i study it. For those who had already explored SD and didn't find what they were looking for, I truly hope you found it in your current school.

[MonkeyKing]

hey guys cut willow some slack, search for his posts and you'll see that at one time he was a very strong supportor of SD, in fact he actually went through with a challenge from someone on this forum. He lost. He learned from it, and did not have the follow through support from his teacher that he should've.

He can be very buttholish about some of his opinions, but he at one time was on the same side as you guys. He has his own experiences to work through.

I admire one thing about SD ppl above all others on these forums. The fact that most of them, regardless of the ridicule, take pride in the organization, support it, and defend it consistently time after time. Some defend well, while others not so well, but the fact remains that these ppl stand up for their training, their teachers, and their experiences in spite of literally getting bashed everytime they have something to say. I'd love to find that kind of loyalty amongst my fellow students and teachers.

Props to the SDer's who could give a S H I T about all these opinions!

[dragon797]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


I can't help on your name question as I don't know myself. Grandmaster Ie is deceased. He passed in 1976.

Regards JP...

Ie Chang Ming was not a monk. This was his given name. His "nickname" was Tie Chang Sang Ren or Iron Palm Master.

Grandmaster Ie 's grave headstone says he died in August 1968. He was 86 years old.

[dragon797]

Originally posted by Brad

I thought Hiang used a different name for what he did... based on some sort of bird or something... I think it was talked about in one of the old shaolin-do threads on the Shaolin forum. Good luck finding the post though, lol

Hiang formally started using the name Chung Yen or "Central Area" Shaolin for his group here in the U.S. in 1998 when he became more active in teaching again after spending several years back in Indonesia with his family. This was also the name of the organization in Indonesia headed by their maternal grandfather, Ie Chang Ming, when Hiang and Sin were students there. If you can read Chinese, the Chung Yen name is on Sin's 5th degree certificate from 1964 that is displayed in Sin's Lexington school. Sin first used the name "Shaolin Karate-Do" after he came to the U.S. and started teaching martial arts at a University of Kentucky club in 1965. Hiang came to Kentucky in 1968.

They each had their own schools in Lexington at that time, but were partners. In 1978 they built one the country's first sports complexes, the Sin The, Hiang Sports Center, and merged the two schools under one roof. Then they went their separate ways in 1984.

Bird:
One of Hiang's areas of specialty is the Tai Peng or "Great Bird" system that he learned from Master Liu Su Peng, one of the Indonesian school's other instructors and a peer of Ie Chang Ming. The system consists of 18 separate forms. Hiang has medallions he was awarded for both his forms and fighting applications of this system.

Hope this helps...

[MasterKiller]

This was also the name of the organization in Indonesia headed by their maternal grandfather, Ie Chang Ming, when Hiang and Sin were students there.
I was looking at Mullins' SD site, and people there seem to be adamant about Sin not being related to Ie Chang Ming. Is this is the cause of their split, maybe?

Mullins responses to his students questions about SD lineage on that board showed class all the way.

[shaolinarab]

Originally posted by MasterKiller

I was looking at Mullins' SD site, and people there seem to be adamant about Sin not being related to Ie Chang Ming. Is this is the cause of their split, maybe?

Mullins responses to his students questions about SD lineage on that board showed class all the way.

You're right MK, Mullins' responses were indeed classic, and he actually posts in this forum, too (by the way, he's not the same one as the sifu. over there in Appalachia, they're just all related! j/k . :p

And as he said, whatever was the cause of the split is really none of our business. What matters is that we train hard and reap the benefits of our martial arts experience, and everything else takes care of itself.

[dezhen2001]

he actually posts in this forum, too
wonder what he thinks of all this then :D - and why he didnt clearly answer everything?

dawood

[Ironmantis]

OK .... I have read the numerous threads on this and I am about to the point where I am ready to puke.

We are supposed to be martial artists.

I have seen more posts in this thread insulting and bashing people than I have educating people.

This is wrong. If the Old Masters of our respective arts say this they would say shame on us.

Let this thread die. People are entitled to their respective opinions. Let them be .....

SD is SD, Hungar is Hungar, JKD is JKD, etc .....

I have sparred people from SD, my own art of CSC, TKD, Kickboxing, Mantis, White Lotus, Karate and you know what .....???
True MA are true MA no matter what they study. People find a style that suits them. Also, the truley dedicated ones become the real MA, never giving a moments notice to other small trivial things like this thread or insulting another art.

People - let us better ourselves in our own respective arts and stop all this nonsense.......

Iron Mantis
CSC

[The Willow Sword]

Uhh i think you need to sober up again. i have been PRACTICING Martial arts for 17 years. i am 32 years old.

I stand by my statement in my profile that you quoted.

Shaolin arab: when i said "Karate mantis" i meant that this is what SD Mantid forms look like and feel like.
i learned the traditional and proper Bung bo chuan before sd and when i saw theirs i had an incling then(when i was a green belt) that the forms were creations based on the classical forms.
but knowing what i know of mantis i made the call that it only looks mantis like. it doesnt feel mantis at all. (hey just an opinion)

MonkeyKing: Thanks for the back up. yeah i can be buttholish sometimes. heheh.


Oh and shaolin arab. I know who teaches you in New orleans and he is a good man and honorable. (he and i have trained together) i left sd a second degree black belt so there isnt a form there that i DONT know about. i am not bashing SD because of what they teach(my opinions about the mantis section of sd are my opinions).
TWS

[themeecer]

Thank you for your input, dragon797. I actually learned something new. I thought Grandmaster Ie was a monk at the temple, and he followed GM Su out of the temple, with a few other masters. Was Master Liu Su Peng a monk from the temple? If not, where did he learn the bird system? Is this the one teacher that is still alive?

You seem very knowledgable about both brothers, you must have some very good ties to them. But I will allow your actual affiliation to remain hidden, and not ask you. Our school is currently under Grandmaster Sin's wing, but my teacher has always had the best things to say about GM Hiang. I believe that my teacher is who he is today because GM Hiang pushed him so hard. It is shadowed in the way he teaches and I am thankful that both brothers pushed that hard. In that way, it is almost like I am learning from them.


Originaly posted by the Willow Sword
I learned the traditional and proper Bung bo chuan before sd and when i saw theirs i had an incling then(when i was a green belt) that the forms were creations based on the classical forms.
Are you speaking of Lo Han Chien? That is actually not part of the mantis system. A lot of people mistakenly call it that. It is Fist of the Lo Han (roughly meaning hero). Still a nice form when done correctly.

[The Willow Sword]

lo han chien at green belt in Sd was always called the gateway form to praying mantis. No i am speaking of Bung bo mantis form that was taught at a seminar in lexington years ago when i was a green belt.

[cho]

Originally posted by Ironmantis
We are supposed to be martial artists.

As much as I am sick of this thread, though it is amusing, I'm sick of hearing this.

Martial artists aren't this special class of people who follow strict bushido or confucian principles. You think practicing martial arts will turn you into Wong Fei Hung or Miyamoto Musashi?

soldiers in the army are considered martial artists, just as they were considered back in China, learning Pek Kwar or what have you. Schools that talk of honor and the like are only trying to keep some mysticism around the arts.

"old masters" in their day would be the same as the ones today. believe it. There have been petty rivalries between schools, contests, and immaturity. Believe it.

[Radhnoti]

Meecer,

Are you saying that Lo han is not actually a related to mantis? From the footwork and moves I've questioned that classification myself...seems birdlike(specifically crane-like) to me. What family had you heard it originated within and what are some related forms? Sidenote: I've even heard that Lo Han was a form that was integrated in from a JAPANESE source. When I pressed this question I got something about it being brought to the temple from a Japanese "envoy" or some such? I'd never heard this from any but this one source though...any insights? I've also heard something about the "hero" having something to do with a "god of death"? Thanks for any light anyone can shed on this, I'm helping a group with this very form right now and I like to give a historical overview during the breaks.

By the way, meecer, grounddragon, dragon797, arab, TWS, or any of you SD relatives passing near southeastern KY Sept. 5th (Friday) would be welcome at my sifu's "kwoon warming party". We plan on wearing our uniforms, but other than that it'll be a pretty informal thing. Maybe someone will feel like demo-ing a form or two...some sparring, etc. My instructor is infamous for his "take it easy, everything will work out" attitude (exact opposite of me), so it might be worth checking out just to see if it turns out catastrophic! :D
So, please, everyone consider yourselves invited (which my instructor told me to do a month ago). Anyone interested just drop me an IM or e-mail and I'll send you directions.

[shaolinarab]

Originally posted by Radhnoti
Meecer,

I've also heard something about the "hero" having something to do with a "god of death"? Thanks for any light anyone can shed on this, I'm helping a group with this very form right now and I like to give a historical overview during the breaks.

I have also heard the translation in johnson city as "death fist of the angry god.' most places just call it fist of luo han, but chuan is fist, and either luo or han (i forgot which one) means god or some type of immortal-like guardian figure. some choose not to use that translation so as not to scare the guests! :)

but if anyone knows anything more, please, do tell. let's get back to discussing and sharing ideas instead of all the bickering. :D

here's a question that i have for everyone. what do you feel is the best way to drill forms applications? do you break the forms down into segments, and then practice applications on each other? or do you try to apply the applications in free sparring? it's probably best to do both, but what do ya'll think is the most efficient way to focus time on the applications? I try to go into free sparring with a few specific techniques in mind that I will try to find openings to apply them in, and i feel i get more out of the sparring doing so.

[MasterKiller]

Lohan is another word for Arhat, which is a Bohdivisattva, a Buddhist who has attained Nirvana.

Unless separating the words means something else alltogether in Chinese, I think this is what you guys are referring to.

[Radhnoti]

MK,

I would've put it down as one word, but I was trying to follow the pre-established format. :)

Didn't different immortals attain immortality in different ways? Maybe one got there through battle, gaining the title "lohan"? General Kwan comes to mind as a "fer instance", but this is just late night speculation on my part. And I may be mixing my buddhist and taoist traditions...which if you think about it is pretty appropriate for a guy studying SD. :D
Someone who knows what they're talking about feel free to jump in here... :o

[cho]

I don't think Kwan is an immortal as in god, but more like vengeful spirit.

[crazymaddrunk]

The nunchaku in SD is always brought up when dissing the style. Tonight, I read a very interesting piece in "The Art of Shaolin Kung Fu" by Wong Kiew Kit.

It reads:

"At that time carrying a weapon in public was not illegal. But while carrying a 'sweeper' was allowed by law, it was nevertheless very inconvenient because it was a long weapon. Hence, some people shortened the shaft so that the two pieces could be placed together and tucked under clothing. This shortened weapon is called a 'small sweeper'. You will probably recognize the small sweeper as the NUNCHAKU, which is actually the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese words meaning 'two-sectional staff'."

There's also a cool write-up on the Praying Mantis history in this book. It basically states that the Mantis style was brought to Shaolin, and the abbot of the temple loved the system. It also goes on to say that the abbot was concerned of losing the then main style of Shaolin, Lohan Kung Fu, and that Lohan Kung Fu was added so it could become the "base" of Praying Mantis...so basically I can see the theory behind Lohan Fist being taught in the PM system...

[crazymaddrunk]

The nunchaku in SD is always brought up when dissing the style. Tonight, I read a very interesting piece in "The Art of Shaolin Kung Fu" by Wong Kiew Kit.

It reads:

"At that time carrying a weapon in public was not illegal. But while carrying a 'sweeper' was allowed by law, it was nevertheless very inconvenient because it was a long weapon. Hence, some people shortened the shaft so that the two pieces could be placed together and tucked under clothing. This shortened weapon is called a 'small sweeper'. You will probably recognize the small sweeper as the NUNCHAKU, which is actually the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese words meaning 'two-sectional staff'."

There's also a cool write-up on the Praying Mantis history in this book. It basically states that the Mantis style was brought to Shaolin, and the abbot of the temple loved the system. It also goes on to say that the abbot was concerned of losing the then main style of Shaolin, Lohan Kung Fu, and that Lohan Kung Fu was added so it could become the "base" of Praying Mantis...so basically I can see the theory behind Lohan Fist being taught in the PM system...

[themeecer]

There is also a 'chinese nunchaku.' One stick is remarkably shorter than the other; this prevents you from racking your knuckles. It is the one used in the nunchaku and sword vs. trident 2 man set.

Just the other day I read an article in an old copy of kungfu magazine about chinese sais. They were shaped like the okinawan version but was segmented. It kind of reminded me of a scorpion's tail.

[crazymaddrunk]

I was just thinking about the Mantis system last night before I went to sleep, and want to share my thoughts...

As far as the Mantis in SD, compared to everyone else's style, I don't see why it's so hard to believe? Different schools teach different forms in the Mantis system, and I think one would have to be air-headed to think that the forms taught today were the ONLY Mantis forms. For Instance- the PM system was taken to Shaolin, various Monks learned the original forms, who's to say that a couple of monks liked it, and off of the original forms, created their own? It happened all the time. Even Hung Gar's most famous form, Tiger/Crane, was created not long ago, at least compared to other forms. Just because Seven Star doesn't teach a form doesn't mean it never existed. Even the various Mantis systems today teach different forms... Perhaps the creator of 7 Star, or any of the other PM systems, liked certain forms and only kept those. All this is speculation, of course, because I wasn't there. On the other hand, no one can prove different, because THEY weren't there.

Of course, this can be said about any form. Even in karate, which really isn't an old system at all, you can see the difference in their katas, for example; the Goju style's Sanchin is different than the Uechi style's, I've seen different Seisan katas, and the list goes on and on...but who's right and who's wrong. If it's effective, who cares???

Personally, I have taken the Bong Bo form (outside of SD), and didn't find it near as practical as say SD's Mantis Enters the Door, a straight up, in your face Mantis attack, LOL. But that's just me, we all have different opinions on different forms.

[YinYangDagger]

Us down here in San Antonio are about to begin an in depth Mantis training session that will last 4 months, from Sept to December or January I believe.

It's going to cover sticky hands, two-man sets, short forms, long forms, Mantis conditioning, pressure points, etc.

This is only Level 1, there are other levels, and I believe Level 2 will start in February. Should be interesting.

[YinYangDagger]

yeah, Sifu Ryan said we'd be using that, have you taken this before, the Level 1 Mantis?

[dragon797]

Originally posted by themeecer
Thank you for your input, dragon797. I actually learned something new. I thought Grandmaster Ie was a monk at the temple, and he followed GM Su out of the temple, with a few other masters. Was Master Liu Su Peng a monk from the temple? If not, where did he learn the bird system? Is this the one teacher that is still alive?

No. Liu Su Peng wasn't a monk either. He died in 1978. The bird system he taught was passed down within his family. He was born in southeast China, so that's probably how he met up with GM Ie, but the history beyond LSP is not clear. (Liu is his family name. The "Peng" is Bird.)

Liu Su Peng was left in charge of the Indonesian Chung Yen club after GM Ie died in 1968. Hiang was supposed to test for his seventh degree just before he came to the U.S. in 1968, but he had to get to Kentucky so he could enroll in school. Hiang went back and tested with Liu Se Peng in 1974. Then, just before Hiang returned in May 1978 for his 8th test, Liu Su Peng died. Hiang declined to test as there was some infighting among those who were left about who would be in charge and Hiang came back to the U.S. That's when he and Sin opened the Sports Center in Lexington.

Actually, the Indonesian Chung Yen group asked Hiang to return and take over when he was back for a visit in 1981 as the organization was falling apart. At that time, a teacher named Qui Kwong (I am not sure of the spelling) was in charge, but he couldn't continue. Hiang declined the offer as he was committed to living in the U.S. and getting his citizenship here. Qui Kwong is still alive, but I don't know if this is the one teacher you are referring to.


[i]Our school is currently under Grandmaster Sin's wing, but my teacher has always had the best things to say about GM Hiang. I believe that my teacher is who he is today because GM Hiang pushed him so hard. It is shadowed in the way he teaches and I am thankful that both brothers pushed that hard. In that way, it is almost like I am learning from them. [/B]

Yes, BG is of one the good ones.

[dragon797]

Originally posted by MasterKiller

I was looking at Mullins' SD site, and people there seem to be adamant about Sin not being related to Ie Chang Ming.

That certainly would be news to the rest of the family!

Several of Hiang's students know his Indonesian family and have visited Bandung, including GM Ie's gravesite. I guess Hiang and Sin's mother, other brother, and the rest of the entire family would have to be in on it if this was some great deception. Sorry, even though there are some legitimate differences of opinion about some things between the two groups, this one is a FACT.

[themeecer]

Wow, that's a lot of information dragon797. I learned a few things I didn't know before. Thank you.

[Shaolin-Do]

YinYangDagger, what days are the mantis classes going to be?

[YinYangDagger]

The Mantis classes are going to be after Wednesday's Blue Belt classes, from 8-9 or 9:30, every other Wednesday beginning Sept 3rd.

Sept 10 sifu is teaching out Stomping Drunken Immortal, and in October he's teaching the Female Drunken Immortal Form. Didn't know if you knew about them or not.

Also, Shaolin Warrior classes begins on some Saturdays coming up.

[Shaolin-Do]

Knew about the drunken immortals, dunno if I plan on taking them... Do plan on going to the mantis classes however.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Radhnoti
Meecer,

Are you saying that Lo han is not actually a related to mantis? From the footwork and moves I've questioned that classification myself...seems birdlike(specifically crane-like) to me. What family had you heard it originated within and what are some related forms? Sidenote: I've even heard that Lo Han was a form that was integrated in from a JAPANESE source. When I pressed this question I got something about it being brought to the temple from a Japanese "envoy" or some such? I'd never heard this from any but this one source though...any insights? I've also heard something about the "hero" having something to do with a "god of death"? Thanks for any light anyone can shed on this, I'm helping a group with this very form right now and I like to give a historical overview during the breaks.

By the way, meecer, grounddragon, dragon797, arab, TWS, or any of you SD relatives passing near southeastern KY Sept. 5th (Friday) would be welcome at my sifu's "kwoon warming party". We plan on wearing our uniforms, but other than that it'll be a pretty informal thing. Maybe someone will feel like demo-ing a form or two...some sparring, etc. My instructor is infamous for his "take it easy, everything will work out" attitude (exact opposite of me), so it might be worth checking out just to see if it turns out catastrophic! :D
So, please, everyone consider yourselves invited (which my instructor told me to do a month ago). Anyone interested just drop me an IM or e-mail and I'll send you directions.

Like MK said, Lohan is the Chinese mangling of the Sanskrit word Arhat which is an enlightened person who has the task of guiding others to enlightenment. There are many Lohan, but Chan Buddhism focuses on 18. Each of the 18 is supposed to embody a human quality.

I would be very surprised if they Lohan movements were brought to Shaolin via Japan.

[Radhnoti]

Regarding the 18 Lohan, are they only supposed to embody noble/compassionate/good "human qualities"? Or do they also embody the darker side of human nature? Specifically could one embody anger?

I wouldn't normally consider anger being a path to enlightenment though...but sometimes things from the Chinese tradition surprise me. :)

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Radhnoti
Regarding the 18 Lohan, are they only supposed to embody noble/compassionate/good "human qualities"? Or do they also embody the darker side of human nature? Specifically could one embody anger?

I wouldn't normally consider anger being a path to enlightenment though...but sometimes things from the Chinese tradition surprise me. :)

From what I understand (and that is very limited) they embody good qualities. I don't know of any enbodying the darker side of human nature. But as I said, I only know a little about it.

Each one was supposed to have been a real person and is known for some interesting characteristic e.g. the ear picking lohan, the laughing lohan etc.

[MasterKiller]

If you are curious about the 18 Lohans, here is a link:

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/history/lohans.htm

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Brad


Since JP confirmed which form it is, then this historical blurb is pretty off. First of all, what the heck is Shaolin Taiji? Also, as far as I can tell, 24 form combines two styles, Yang and Sun along with modifications/simplifications for health, and both styles are familly styles, pretty far removed from Shaolin(esp. Sun).

We learn Yang 64 first and then 24. I think someone here commented once that this is backwards since 24 is considered an "introductory" form of tai chi, but given the history is it not more practical to a traditional form before learning a recently standardized form?

[MasterKiller]

I've never heard of a 64-step Yang form.

JP,
What are the lyrics for the 64-steps you practice?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by dragon797


Hiang formally started using the name Chung Yen or "Central Area" Shaolin for his group here in the U.S. in 1998 when he became more active in teaching again after spending several years back in Indonesia with his family. This was also the name of the organization in Indonesia headed by their maternal grandfather, Ie Chang Ming, when Hiang and Sin were students there. If you can read Chinese, the Chung Yen name is on Sin's 5th degree certificate from 1964 that is displayed in Sin's Lexington school. Sin first used the name "Shaolin Karate-Do" after he came to the U.S. and started teaching martial arts at a University of Kentucky club in 1965. Hiang came to Kentucky in 1968.

They each had their own schools in Lexington at that time, but were partners. In 1978 they built one the country's first sports complexes, the Sin The, Hiang Sports Center, and merged the two schools under one roof. Then they went their separate ways in 1984.

Bird:
One of Hiang's areas of specialty is the Tai Peng or "Great Bird" system that he learned from Master Liu Su Peng, one of the Indonesian school's other instructors and a peer of Ie Chang Ming. The system consists of 18 separate forms. Hiang has medallions he was awarded for both his forms and fighting applications of this system.

Hope this helps...

Thanks for your insights. It's always good when you post on this topic.

I haven't seen the headstone, but I've heard from some of Hiang's students sat this as well. I'd be interested in seeing it for myself.

As for acknowledging Ie as Sin's maternal grandfather, I don't think Sin has ever denied it; however, he for his own reasons doesn't mention it as part of the lineage. His reasons are his, and I'm notthe person to aske why.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by shaolinarab


You're right MK, Mullins' responses were indeed classic, and he actually posts in this forum, too (by the way, he's not the same one as the sifu. over there in Appalachia, they're just all related! j/k . :p





:p

[MasterKiller]

I guess I know JP's last name now? :D

Anyway, it was a good response, nonetheless.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I've never heard of a 64-step Yang form.

JP,
What are the lyrics for the 64-steps you practice?

I don't have the lyrics written down, but I will see if I can find a source an PM them to you.

[Judge Pen]

Some good posts this weekend. It's taken me a while to catch up. let's see, where to start. . .

Lo Han. Before studying with Master Mullins' group I heard that Lo Han chien meant "enlightened fist" Master Mullins uses the translation "death fist of the angry god." Maybe I'm a bit more passive then him. :) Maybe even the enlightened can get ticked off every now and then. Anyway, LHC's relation to PM was posted on by CMD, and that is what my first teacher told me about the form when I first learned it 13 years ago. Nice to see a written source for that information. As for the bird feel to Lohan (i.e. some of the hand strikes are bird) I think this is Hiang's influence on the form when it was taught.

dragon797 is a very knowledgeable source. I don't know who he is, but he once posted that he trained with Master Mullins several years ago (when they both had more hair) so I would guess we are talking to one of Hiang's highest ranking students. Master Mullins did train when both the brothers were teaching and you can see that influence as well.

PM: I haven't learned any mantis techniques or breathing so I have no perspective to post on the differences. I differ to those who are more knowledgeable than me. :)

[Shaolin-Do]

I need to get my plane ticket...

[shaolinarab]

Originally posted by YinYangDagger
Us down here in San Antonio are about to begin an in depth Mantis training session that will last 4 months, from Sept to December or January I believe.

It's going to cover sticky hands, two-man sets, short forms, long forms, Mantis conditioning, pressure points, etc.

This is only Level 1, there are other levels, and I believe Level 2 will start in February. Should be interesting.

I realized that the drill I did for the first time last week appears to be deng ta. there are excellent clips available of this and other two man drills at
http://www.rochesterkungfu.com/multimedia/brazier.html
it takes a good 2 minutes or so for quicktime to load, so be patient.

after seeing the clips, i see that i have a long way to go in building up my speed... :)

[Shaolin-Do]

Ehehehe... Funny music in the background. :)

[themeecer]

Speaking of the tournament, who is attending the seminar on Sunday? I'm afraid that I may have to miss it, and I was really looking forward to it. I hate that they always have those on Sundays. I've got some of the praying mantis material from years past and vowed I wouldn't miss another seminar. I wish they would offer the material more than once or have other means of purchasing the video.

[Shaolin-Do]

I *might* go to the seminar. Depends on $$, I wish there was the option of taking only one instead of both..

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Sin The'
Other's who claim Shaolin heritage are nothing but weak posuers. Shao-Lin Do is the only REAL source for Shaolin Martial arts anywhere in the world!

Read our curriculum and weep, puny ones. (http://home.earthlink.net/~bkarnesc130/shaolin/curriculum.htm) :(

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Sin The'
Other's who claim Shaolin heritage are nothing but weak posuers. Shao-Lin Do is the only REAL source for Shaolin Martial arts anywhere in the world!

Read our curriculum and weep, puny ones. (http://home.earthlink.net/~bkarnesc130/shaolin/curriculum.htm) :(

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Sin The'
Other's who claim Shaolin heritage are nothing but weak posuers. Shao-Lin Do is the only REAL source for Shaolin Martial arts anywhere in the world!

Read our curriculum and weep, puny ones. (http://home.earthlink.net/~bkarnesc130/shaolin/curriculum.htm)

:(

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Sin The'
Other's who claim Shaolin heritage are nothing but weak posuers. Shao-Lin Do is the only REAL source for Shaolin Martial arts anywhere in the world!

Read our curriculum and weep, puny ones. (http://home.earthlink.net/~bkarnesc130/shaolin/curriculum.htm) :(

[Brad]

A quadruple post?! Someone was a little impatient with the submit button :D

[Shaolin-Do]

Next time that happens, just put your foot through the computer monitor. Works wonders.

[shaolinarab]

Originally posted by dragon797


Regards JP...

Ie Chang Ming was not a monk. This was his given name. His "nickname" was Tie Chang Sang Ren or Iron Palm Master.

Grandmaster Ie 's grave headstone says he died in August 1968. He was 86 years old.

dragon797,
thanks for all the historical background. while much of chinese martial arts history is distorted and permeated by legend and unverifiable details, i think that is one of the most fascinating things about studying the martial arts, that is, exploring its rich background and history amidst all the stories.
on that note, i think it's interesting that two the' schools have different dates recorded for grandmaster ie. central shaolin says 1882--1968, while all the shaolin-do schools say 1880-1976. While there is no doubt that the birthdate might never have been firmly documented, surely someone must be making an error in recording his death. if you are sure that the tombstone says 1968, let me know, and i'll let all the SD webmasters know to change their sites ASAP! :) can you verify that date with someone who last saw the family? thanks.

incidentally, a few weeks ago on the BBC they had a story about an Indian Muslim who has been receiving a pension check for over 60 years. that's right, and he claims to be about 132, i think. however, the government only has documentation verifying that he is at least 126. a muslim lady from nigeria (i believe) was also found to be one of the oldest women alive. i wonder what it is about Islam that brings longevity, perhaps keeping the faith! :D

[Brad]

and he claims to be about 132, i think. however, the government only has documentation verifying that he is at least 126.
He's still within 6 years, not too bad ;) At 126 I'd be happy to even remember who I am, lol

[Radhnoti]

shaolinarab,

I have heard folks in dragon797's camp indicate that GM Sin moved back the date of GM Ie's death to make it seem as though GM Sin had more time to learn such a vast amount of material.
It's funny how such an innocent observation can blow up into an argument between the two camps.
I have heard that someone named Larry Hill brought a photo back proving the 68 date correct, but have yet to see it...which doesn't mean I doubt dragon's info, generally speaking he has been spot on.

[bobojoe02]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
and one more thing, just to let you all know,
I HAVE THE STRENGTH OF A BEAR THAT HAS THE STRENGTH OF 2 BEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No, but seriously, if my knee is ok, I will go compete in the legacy taiji tourney...
(have torn ligaments in left knee, broken right wrist, get health insurance on monday....) So... after all the surgeries ect, if Im good to go, I will compete... Even if I cant, Ill do all I can to get up there.... :)

Girl, girl, girl, settle down crip.
It just makes me sick to see girls that are big wanna be's on here and act like they can fight. Just look at girl shadow and girl shaolin do. Talk about girls who have never had a real fight?
Yet, I have to read their fairy tale analysis from fighting skills in shaolin do to chi gung. Come on, hey, I studied for over 25 years in Beijing and just about everything these clowns say is opposite of decent xing-i, tai chi and bagua. But, just read their crap on what they say is real. Why won't they just shut their mouths and come to our school or compete in kuo su? I'll tell you why? Girls are girls. Stay that way and save yourself from a real as-- whoopin, shadow, and shaolin do.

Respectfully,

Bo

[bobojoe02]

Originally posted by shaolinarab
Okay, I know this forum hasn't been read in a while, but I'm appalled that someone is giving such a bad name to Grandmaster Sin The by pertending to be him in this forum and saying all kinds of stupid jibberish. Even to the non-Shaolin-Do student it should be obvious that a man who runs over a hundred schools would not participate in a forum making statements in such a childish manner. Yet many have replied to him as if they really thought it was. And Shaolin-Do, you claim to study Shaolin-do in Texas yet you have said nothing to clarify any of Sin The's statements, which makes me suspicious of you, but no offense. Anyway, before anyone disparages any school we should all remember that as martial arts, we should respect other styles, and it is hard to try to delegitimize someone who's been in the business for a while without truly seeing what he or she is all about. Good luck to everyone!
----------------
You didn't know we traced it back to shadow and shaolin do? Come on, just about everyone knows they are behind it.

Respect,
Bo