PDA

View Full Version : Variations



Shaolindynasty
07-30-2001, 08:50 PM
I have recently been researching alot of material on Bak Sil Lum or Northern Shaolin. I have been comparing the techniques and forms of three well known masters Yang Jwing Ming, Kwong Wing Lam, and Lai Hung. As far as lineage Yang is the only on of them that's style does not descend from Ku Yu Cheung but he still is recongized as teaching Northern Shaolin. Here is where it gets interesting all three of them teach Lian Bu Chuan as the first set but all three are different, even Lai Hung and Wing Lam even though they both sare the same Sigung. Lai Hung's and Wing Lam's lian bu chuan are similar but there are diferences and those will be very likly magnafied in the next generation and then the next etc. until the variation is drastic like with Yangs. Yangs appears to be a completely different style altogether yet all these teachers are celebrated as being excellent masters. What this shows is that over breif periods(1 or 2 generations) a style can be altered significatly, so much that it really isn't even recongisable as the same style. With this being said, other than trying to spot frauds what good does it do tracing your lineage back over two or three generations? After all the Kungfu you pracice now is certain to be very if not completely different from what was practiced many generations ago. So in my case seeing as I am seperated from Taiwan by 2 generations what would be the purpose be of me finding my "lost" lineage(other than my image to others). I can trace it back about 3 generations isn't that enough?

Witness the Dynasty!!!
New Site! www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)
New original products!!!!
www.cafepress.com/dynastystore (http://www.cafepress.com/dynastystore)

Crimson Phoenix
08-01-2001, 01:00 AM
Yang's longfist is different but it's not a surprise: his longfist is the one of the national kuoshu institute in Nanjing, and it's a "composite style" that emerged from the gathering and exchange of wll known practicionners there...for example, in the YMAA curriculum there are mantis forms, like beng bu which in Yang's own words "is somewhat different from the beng bu still passed down in mantis"...same for "xiao hou yuan" from which it is said that it is "a mantis form modified to fit the stylistic feartures of longfist" (Nanjing's longfist, that is)...in YMAA there is also a Taizu changchuan form, and a moslim cha chuan form...so it's rather wide...I also seen the lian bu quan taught by master Chang Dsu Yao and it is different (I don't know however if it has similarities with that of Wing Lam or Lai Hung)...
Moreover your research and the differences you found between Wing Lam and Lai Hung are very interesting and illustrate a point that in my opinion is too often forgotten: every gong fu teaching is to a certain extent a personal interpretation of the art passed down to a sifu from his own sifu...some keep it as ressembling as they can, some integrate the art and make it their own...in fact, the art always change from one sifu to the other, according to that person's own understanding and experience...and during the course of time, it can change drastically...not every branch looks alike, but the same roots are shared by all these branches...Your question is very interesting and your research is very good...keep bringing the good things!!!!

Phoenix

Shaolindynasty
08-01-2001, 03:43 AM
Exactley how I feel, everyones kungfu is different after all it is martial ART, art is open to many interpertations. So in your opinion does lineage play that important of a role?

Witness the Dynasty!!!
New Site! www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)
New original products!!!!
www.cafepress.com/dynastystore (http://www.cafepress.com/dynastystore)

Crimson Phoenix
08-01-2001, 07:19 AM
Well...to me lineage is important...after all, if you have a reknowned teacher, it's better, or at least it's a sign that you can expect a good gong fu...however whatever greatness your sifu might possess, if you don't work seriously it won't make you any better...what I mean is that lineage shouldn't be some kind of magic word to back practicionners up: we all have to make our proofs at our own level. And I also find stupid the quarrels that can appear (thank God it is not too often the case) between two students of the same sifu whose practice diverged as time passed...if both are dedicated and have integrated the art, then no one has the truth alone, and it is not because your gong fu ressembles more that of your sifu that it is necessarilly better than the other guy's gong fu who expresses his art in a different fashion...
Anyway as time pass, it gets harder and harder to witness ourselves or to find people that have witnessed great masters practicing, and how they did it...so it becomes more and more impossible to know if the technique passed on you was practiced that way two generations above...so it is in our duty to study hard and pass only what we have come to learn after a dedicated practice, even if by doing so we pass on a little bit of our own findings...it's the meaning of the arts, as you stated it, it has been like this for ever...in my opinion a good sifu doesn't want you to mimic his forms, he expects you to practice hard until you have digested them and made them yours just like he/she did...
I hope I wasn't too incoherent, I'm kinda tired hehehehehhe

Phoenix

Shaolindynasty
08-01-2001, 11:19 PM
"Well...to me lineage is important...after all, if you have a reknowned teacher, it's better, or at least it's a sign that you can expect a good gong fu"

This true in anything. To me I feel respect has to be earned...by you. Most people are using the respect that was earned by those 3, 4 or 5 generations before them. I always look at the individuals skill and not what came before him.

Witness the Dynasty!!!
New Site! www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)
New original products!!!!
www.cafepress.com/dynastystore (http://www.cafepress.com/dynastystore)