Internal Arts

[StickyHands]

What's main difference between Taiji, Hsing-yi, and Ba Gua? Thank you.

[Nexus]

Even a perfect answer in words would not give you the true feeling of the difference. If you are fortunate, find a teacher who teaches at least 2 of the mentioned arts and ask them to show you them both.

Most teachers will gladly oblige so that you can understand the differences.

They are significantly difference but all rely on posture and structural positionining/integrity/internal power generation (from the dantien/waist.)

Good luck in your learning.

[StickyHands]

I understand that, but I was still looking for a general answer I guess. Im sure someone here is aware of the difference at least. Thank you.

[dwid]

rock, paper, and scissors

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Fundamentally, there is no difference.. It is merely different paths up the same mountain.. Like Nexus said, words fail in this matter.. at best, the explanation would be way too lengthy for this venue.. Visit classes, read books, rent videos.. Enjoy the journey..

Be well..

[Vapour]

Say you and your opponent is fighting up in the cliff.

If you are a xingyquan fighter, you just keep moving forward until your opponent get oblibirated off the cliff.

If you are a baguaguan fighter, everytime your opponent attack, you evade and attack from blind corner until your opponent is off the clif.

If you are a taijiqquan figher, everytime your opponent attack you neutralised it and when he retreat, you seize that momvent to push him flying off the clif.

That's my best description.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

I think that Vapour is outlining the key differences, it comes down to tactics. Strategically they are very similar, but after battle is engaged they are rather different.

One way to approach it is to consider how they treat the ground of battle. Taijiquan shows its roots as a village style in that it is like a walled town. Stand your ground and invite the opponent to waste their strength on your walls, punctuated by the occasional sally out to lift the siege.

Xingiquan is like heavy infantry, thundering along and taking the battleground from one end to the other. Willing to absorb losses without stopping.

Baguazhang is like light cavalry. Profoundly maneuverable with articulate scouts. Willing to give up the ground to allow for flanking maneuvers and able to go formless before suddenly wheeling and striking.

[YiLiJingLei]

Cool Summary, Kevin,
I liked it. So how've you been doing, bud? Email me when you get a chance. Anything new in your neck of the woods?

[StickyHands]

Compared to the external arts, how long does it take for someone to become a proficient fighter in the internal arts? Can they contend with an external martial practitioner with same years of training generally speaking? I dont mean to be a fight monger, but just wondering. Thank you.

[taijiquan_student]

It depends how you are taught. Some people are fighting a lot within the first year, and then others don't start sanshou (not the sport) for a couple years. But in general I would say (and this is a paraphrase of something my teacher told us William Chen said) that if after three years of practice you don't have something that you can use effectively in a fight, then you're doing something wrong (not that you should be a master, but that you should have a solid amount of stuff that works for you that you can build on).

[StickyHands]

I thought Xingyi is learned relatively in very short amount of time compared to the other 2 internal arts. And is very powerful and dominating compared to the other 2 as what the guys said in the previous posts.

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by StickyHands
Compared to the external arts, how long does it take for someone to become a proficient fighter in the internal arts? Can they contend with an external martial practitioner with same years of training generally speaking? I dont mean to be a fight monger, but just wondering. Thank you.

There is no mistery.
A Internal guy training for fighting correctly takes the same time as External guy training for fighting.
On the other hand, if this Internal guy's training is aimed at developing the "holy premature mother chi blast from the 666th galaxy cosmos" or something then the External guy will beat him easy. In this case not in 1, 3 or 20 years will the Internal guy ever be any good in fighting.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


"holy premature mother chi blast from the 666th galaxy cosmos" or something then the External guy will beat him easy. In this case not in 1, 3 or 20 years will the Internal guy ever be any good in fighting. ...

Once again, someone assigns their own misguided concepts to a relatively simple concept.. muscle strength vs. energy refinement and tendon strength (tendon strength allows the muscles to relax so we don't fight ourselves).. Sure, there's a bunch of people out there that wish there was some mystical holy grail.. there is, but, it's already yours... The simple reason it takes longer to truly utilize "internal arts" is the amount of detail that requires attention, the amount of "unlearning" external indoctrinations, the amount of lifestyle changes we should go through to fully realize proper form and function of the body, mind spirit connection. I've played both sides, evolving from external to internal and it was 5 years before i felt the truly martial potential of Tai Chi, 10 years before it really started to manifest itself in my sparring.. now, almost 15 years later, i have substituted internal arts for external with rewarding success..

Too many people assume that "Chi" is some mystical energy.. it is not, it is simple life energy.. it's the stuff that's missing when you mix-up the precise amount of chemicals to build a human body.. it is what animates us.. internalists simply pay attention to the subtleties (QiGong, TCM, etc.. ) and train the energy as well as the machine..like any engine, the quality of fuel greatly affects the engine's performance.. Most often, i see those that dismiss "Chi" are the ones that just don't have the patience or will to invest the time in the diverse aspects of internal arts.. and that's okay, i don't belittle their choice, it's not an easy regimen..

To assert that the internal guy ("chi blast", that's just silly and prejudicial) will never be any good at fighting is simply not so.. yeah, i know, why don't we see them "in the Cage"?.. because the time involved in internal training seems to impart some maturity as well.. By the way, "Chi blast" can be an appropriate description when refined energy surges through well-trained tendons and muscles supported by a correctly aligned body.. the effect is substantially different than a similar looking external technique..

Anyway, that's "my" understanding.. Be well..

[scotty1]

"yeah, i know, why don't we see them "in the Cage"?.. because the time involved in internal training seems to impart some maturity as well.. "

That's ridiculous. Forgive me for putting words in your mouth but are you saying that by the time people have learnt to fight with an internal art that they've grown out of wanting to compete?
That competing is not for mature people?

I would also like to defend what Xebsall said. I don't think he was belittling people who train in the more 'internal' aspects of the internal arts, merely pointing out that if your training only involves this and no sparring or fight training then you're never going to be a good fighter. This makes perfect sense to me...

[Fred Sanford]

i seems to me that xebby was just saying that if you don't train to fight you won't be a good fighter.

15 years to be able to fight with tai chi? what a huge waste of time. IMO.

Go Xebby Go!!!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings...

To be clear.. i learned to "fight" in the late '60s early '70s.. i could already "fight" when i started TaiChi.. There's a difference between "fighters" and "warriors".. but, i don't expect many to recognize the difference until they have made the journey as well.. Odd, how easily some people are so casual about their judgments of others..

15 years to be able to fight with tai chi? what a huge waste of time. IMO.
We each choose how we "waste" our time.. i'm okay with my choices and the approval of others is not required... i also thought i could fight correctly after 5 years in Tai Chi.. 15 years later i see the difference.


A Internal guy training for fighting correctly takes the same time as External guy training for fighting.

Many that have been in internal arts for 2 or 3 or 5 years feel they can fight "correctly".. why, then, do so many people comitt so many years to the pursuit of this art.. why do students seek the masters that have invested their lives to refine the skills they could get by following external traditions.. Now, in defense of the last quote, if the implication is that the training never ends for both.. i bow to the wisdom..

Aside from all that, i am simply relating my own experiences in the arts.. Certainly "mature" people desire to compete, we ALL compete at some level.. i'm just saying that for myself, the competition became more with myself.. i did not mean to imply that maturity imparts wisdom.. and, indeed, i agree if one doesn't train to fight, the skills won't manifest themselves magically ( i think that falls in the realm of common-sense)..

Anyway, interesting dialogue, here.. i wonder which way it will go, now.. Be well..

[StickyHands]

But it's not only internal arts that require life commitment, people who train in external arts also train for life. My simple question was are the internal arts any proficient in bouts as an externalist with same number years of training. And I suppose they are. But what I dont understand is that how can "internalist" be anymore correct? Yes I know I'll be bombarded comments such as oh go check it out for your self, take your own trainings, but I really was looking for introspection from those who already trains, even if it's generic. Thanks.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


But what I dont understand is that how can "internalist" be anymore correct?

Correct is based on certain standards.. so, whichever standards you adhere to will determine your perception of correctness.. As for my own standards/understandings, i tend to lean toward efficiency, control and "Wude".. aside from personal preferrences, what works in the immediate situation is also high on my "correct" list..

But, we digress.. the opening question was directed toward the differences between internal arts and Kevin W. had a pretty good analogy.. Though, i might describe Tai Chi differently.. It is the superior tactician, drawing the enemy into traps, capitalizing on the most minor of mistakes.. Tai Chi manages "range" such that the enemy is likely to comitt the requisite small errors of judgment (balance) necessary to effectively close the "trap".. Tai Chi relies on a few well trained "troops" (skills) and a supreior Commander (mind) to manage the battle... Tai Chi is much more like Commandos, why lug in so much weaponry when you can borrow from your opponent...

Anyway, this is good dialogue.. thanks, all and Be well..

[Ray Pina]

Just popping in and caught this on the back end ... saw just this page.

Bob, you are a wise man!

Sticky hand, this is my experince. I started with Isshin-Ryu as a kid -- external as could be, though there was some internal in there ... doesn't everybody have it?;)

Anyway, from there to Hung Gar and Wing Chun. From there to S Mantis. Each stopp I learned soemthing. Wing Chun was an important stop -- taught me a lot. I wouldn't be able to understand my master now without out.

Anyway, what internal teaches me is not necessarily technique, but hot to get power. Not to generate power from a single limb, but from my entire body. Not punching with tricep or bicep, but punching with the weight of the entire arm, upper back, chest cavity -- compressing it all! -- using the leg, tucking the back to make it all straight so their is no breaking point. The advantage has been great. I would beat the hell out of who I was 6 months ago! Forget 3 years ago when I was doing Kung Fu.

It's not for everyone. Some folks have a hard time generating the power at first. From what I see it usually is a matter of the cup being too full. Ya got to let go. Anyway, I also hear that most people have trained for a while before entering internal anyway. I alreday could fight -- be it a low level -- before internal. I still suck. My master throws me like a doll and I have 50lbs on him and am 30+ years his junior. There's something to it.

You're right. You got to go see it for yourself. I read about it. Saw the movies, bla, bla, bla. Then I fought an internalist and realised it was sling shot to bazooka technology. I don't know about you, but I don't like a fair fight. I had to go find an atom bomb.

[hasayfu]

Here's an old joke but also debscribes the strategies of the three system.

If your opponent's attack is a ball, Hsing I will go through the ball, Ba Gua will go around the ball and Tai Chi will become the ball.

I think Kevin's is better but I thought I'd share.

As for the better tactition, I would prefer Ba Gua. Show a target and don't be there when the attack arrives. I'm not talking walking circle stuff. It's all about the change up.

Finally, for fighting, due to the nature of instruction, internal arts take a longer time to create an effective fighter. Why? Because the internal aspects are stressed from the beginning over applications.

Sure, I could teach a person to use tai chi movements and fight from day one. But they would be doing it externally. The worse thing is that they gain success with this method because it will detract from them moving ****her. This is the problem with most so-called "external" styles.

The reverse happens to Internal artists. They get so caught up in perfection, they forget that the real world rarely gives you a perfect scenario.

Personally, I like Hsing-I. It is simple in it's movements so that one can concentrate on the depth of its internals. Once you have this basic understanding of the internals, it can be applied more broadly.

[shaolinboxer]

Perhaps one reason that internal arts are so difficult to learn is that they require more difficult changes in state of mind and body. That is to say, you need to do a lot less more often,(which is more difficult) to reach your internal strength. Inhibition which leads to synchronazation - rather than excitation which leads to proper sequence. Dig it?

[scotty1]

"Then I fought an internalist and realised it was sling shot to bazooka technology. I don't know about you, but I don't like a fair fight. I had to go find an atom bomb.
"

Great :D

[StickyHands]

But does an internal art keeps you in shape as much as external one, since internal are done in much slower pace? I mean keeping the body toned and increase muscle mass etc? I think that's what an external does right as you train under it.

[Laughing Cow]

IME, internal arts won't get you big, but will give you a very solid Body.

The slow forms are often only trained in the early stages of learning, some styles combine fast and slow movements in their forms from the beginning.
As well as Jumps, leaps, jumping kicks, etc.

Muscle mass might increase when the students start the stength training exercises.

Most of the IMA I know are fairly trim and fit.
Doing the forms slow takes a fair amount of energy and strength, which is often masked by the smoothness of the motion.

Cheers.

[StickyHands]

I see, but on the ideal fitness department and muscle mass let say on age above 40, would an internalist or externalist would have the advantage? I mean with utter most respect, there are lot of overweight people studying the internal art than an external. Probably because it's much more versatile for them that way, but you wont see them lose weight as rapidly as you would on an external framed art. Thanks.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by StickyHands
I see, but on the ideal fitness department and muscle mass let say on age above 40, would an internalist or externalist would have the advantage? I mean with utter most respect, there are lot of overweight people studying the internal art than an external. Probably because it's much more versatile for them that way, but you wont see them lose weight as rapidly as you would on an external framed art. Thanks.

Weight loss comes from burning more calories than you take in, not so much from what you do.
Doing a form 10times a Day, Silk reeling and standing mediation done correctly will burn a fair amount of calories.

There are many people that practice internal arts for health reasons and not for martial purpose.

As for who would have the advantage, tough one, too many factors to give an accurate answer.
OTOH keep in mind that many top-level internal artists practice and teach till an advanced age.
Since the internal arts rely less on "li" (pure muscle power) diminishing muscle and age should affect them less than lets say an external Artist.

Cheers.

[StickyHands]

IC, but no I meant practicing the external every day should keep the person "buffed" or an internal one, not from any martial prospect or who'd have advantage over self defense. Because I dont think internal is as vigorous as external one, so it would make sense to that it takes more physical work and strength, but do correct me if Im wrong. thanks.

[Fred Sanford]

I thought I'd heard that doing "repulse monkey" too much can make you gain weight. I heard that's my Yang Luchan was such a fat *******.

[Kumkuat]

for fitness it doesn't matter. Find the right internal teacher and you'll be sweating buckets just by doing silk reeling exercises.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by StickyHands
Because I dont think internal is as vigorous as external one, so it would make sense to that it takes more physical work and strength, but do correct me if Im wrong. thanks.

I think you migth be wrong there.
Let me look through my archives and find some picks of IMA with their shirts off.
Some of those guys are quite buff and ripped.

Honest in my current kwoon everybodies T-Shirt ends up the same colour at the end of the lesson, I never sweated as much as in TJQ.

Sons of YLC tried to run away or kill themselves to escape their IMA training routine, that's how demanding it can be if done correctly.

Cheers.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Muscle mass? What is the goal?....

Fitness should not be measured by muscle mass.. it is an all-round development of mind, body and spirit.. The system of instruction should include diet, nutrition, TCM, a common-sense work-out that stresses tendon strength and flexibility and a relaxed/fluid movement and a philosophy that supports a healthy lifestyle... a typical class at our school is 1/2 hour basics/QiGong, 1/2 hour forms and refinement, 1/2 hour contact/pushing/applications/sparring and as much extra time before or after formal class as the students or i can tolerate.. there are few if any classes where no one sweats or feels less than "worked-out"..

I know of more than a few "rotund" Tai Chi players that are formidible combatants with admirable forms.. My personal preference is sufficient musclature to manage my own body weight and 1/2" or less padding "in the girth" for storing physical energy reserves.. Too much muscle inhibits flexibility and speed, too little muscle and you can't move the couch to clean beneath it.. Ultimately, it is the student's responsibility to develop their physique as they see fit..

I do not have standard workout class, there are plenty of gyms for that.. Pole-shaking, sand-bag drills, flat-plate exercises with free-weight plates (10-20lbs), heavy bag (floor length Muay Thai type) pushing/fajing drills and Chen-style silk-reeling exercises in low horse-stances suffice for strength training for our formal class.. ChinNa training seems to be particularly beneficial for flexibility and twisting/coiling strength.. A 6' +/- heavy (teak) staff when held in the center at arms length (out to the side and in front) and rotated quickly like a propeller is super training for ChinNa and twisting/coiling.. the differing requirements to accellerate and stop the rotation while keeping the arm extended is a great exploration of body mechanics..

Yikes, i've been rambling.. (good coffee this morning).. Be well..

[Ether]

Sons of YLC tried to run away or kill themselves to escape their IMA training routine, that's how demanding it can be if done correctly.


Ha, perhaps they just got sick of being buggered by their 'uncles'?

J/K, J/K.

IMO, internal martial arts are just as physically demanding as most external styles and possible mentally more demanding. The empthasis is different is all. I have gained muscle since starting TCC and am definately much, much stronger than I was previously. I also have better focus, faster handspeed, greatly increased coordination and more understanding of body mechanics. Would I have got this from an external style? Yes, if the teacher was as good as my IMA teacher is.

Bagua, Zing yi, Tai chi, Shaolin, Karate, Aikido, BJJ are all just different routes up the same tree.

You seem to be excessively worried about the physical appearance that a martial art will give you. To that I would say if you want to look 'buff' then join a gym and start running, if you want to fight and learn a lot about yourself and the nature of confrontation then learn a martial art.
Thats all.

[Ray Pina]

Sticky Hand, it seems like you are trying to prove external is better than internal or something but what's the point. Everyone's style is the best.

I'll say this though. There is nothing slow and week about Hsing-I or E-chuan. Sometimes I practice certain walking excercises slowly. Why? It's harder! Try to main good posture, proper intent and focus in your stepping slowly, hold the hang time, it's not so easy. Proof. Do a front kick with your weight going forward. Now do it slow ... real slow ... which is harder?

As for age. Please, find me a Hung Gar teacher who still fights at 60? Tai Boxer? Boxer?

Anyway.

Also, as far as muscle mass. What if I shot a huge load of steroids up my butt, and did a few cycles and got nice and buff? By western standards I'd be the poster of health ... nice big, tight muscles. But what about my heart and liver from taking that crap? Can my frame afford the weight? My nervous system? Not to mention the state of mind I must be in to not accept myself to begin with? And the balls! All that muscle and nothing to drive home at the end of the night ... tisk .. tisk.

Body building is not fighting. I see these big muscle guys ... awesome! They will rely on biceps and triceps. Me. Something else. Don't confuse the two. I say it all the time. I knew a punch of pussies in HS who took steroids. In the end, they just became big pussies.

Size matters. Technique is a good equalizer. Power, speed and technique. You need all three. But I don't like to think of putting power into my technique. I like to think my technique makes me powerful. There's doing something with power -- using a screwdriver to bang in a nail with all your might -- and then there's doing something right which is automatically powerful: letting the weight of the hammer do the work for ya.

Hey, I'm not knocking external arts at all ... hell no. Tai Boxers, got to watch their viscious ass. Boxers, watch that uppercut. But internal will only improve a man. When you study the proper aliegnment, the way to generate power, it only helps.

If you're curious check it out. Go find a good teacher. That's the most important. Intrenal arts, especially Ba Gua and Hsing-I, are getting popular now. There's a lot of BS out there ... more than external ... at least a reverse punch is a reverse punch -- you can't screw that up too bad. But there are a lot of guys doing Hsing-I stomping their feet on the floor and thinking the elements are routines for fighting, instead of studies in power generation.

Either way, good luck and stay focused on whatever you train! In the end, most people aren't fighting in the pit of death with glass-taped hands. The guys on the street ... come on. A lot of them are suckers ... except for the ones that aren't. ;)

[StickyHands]

Thanks. :)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

If we walk away from this issue with only one bit of wisdom, it should be this...


But I don't like to think of putting power into my technique. I like to think my technique makes me powerful.

Thanks, Evolution Fist..

Be well..

[hasayfu]

Why do we always have to pull Hung Gar into this :P

Evolution Fist wrote:
"As for age. Please, find me a Hung Gar teacher who still fights at 60?"

I hope this link works:
http://users.skynet.be/sb018200/ccw1warshau2001.wmv

This is my SiGung Chiu Wai at age 70. His father practiced Hung Gar until the day he died at age 100. I've touched hands with my SiGung Lum Jo at age 91. Root and Internal connections that most tai chi players would envy. These are all pure Hung Gar players.

My point? That TCMA strives for the qualities known as internal. External methods are just the begining. In the end, you want to be balanced. Not totally soft or totally hard.

Back to this thread, there are many fat karateka and external sifus too. Girth is not a product of the style but of the training. The fact that "lazier" people gravitate towards an "easier" style like tai chi shouldn't make you think it's not a workout. If my whole concept of weight lifting was pressing 300lbs *once* a day, it wouldn't do much for my overall health either.

On a side note, I read an article a ways back about a study done with a pulse meter on a tai chi master. Before he started his set, his pulse was normal, as soon as he started, it shot way up and when he ended it was back to normal. Anyone else hear about this?

I totally agree with evolution fist that if you do things slow *and* properly, it will work you. Too many people cheat but really cheat themselves.

[StickyHands]

Wait, that gentleman is 70? Impressive, he looks very young to even be thought of 70, and his musculature and skills in forms, it's amazing. And he derives the power internally?

Well, to say the least, my conviction for inquiring was what I happend to read in this site as well.

"Are you looking for self-defense, self-cultivation, physical exercise or spiritual enlightenment? Different Kung Fu styles are often best suited for particular pursuits. For instance, if you're looking for street-wise self-defence, an internal art like Taijiquan may not be your first choice. A better option for street-fighting might be a style like Praying Mantis, Wing Chun or Jeet Kun Do. On the other hand, if you are looking for meditation and philosophy then Taijiquan could be ideal."


Although I am aware of the fact that:

"Note that these are general guides. In truth any art can be taught in a manner which promotes any of these things. For instance, there are Taiji competitions and rigorous workouts associated with Praying Mantis classes."

Nonetheless, I imposed the question to figure out the actual practicality of combat. Thanks.

[StickyHands]

Say. do you have any more vid clips of same sort? Thank you.

[shaolinboxer]

If you really want to train for combat, you should not look to the martial arts. They are not designed for modern combat at all. They can be used for brawling, but that has little to do with combat.

Some self defense coursework is useful. But you can learn all you will every need in only a few months time regarding civilian combat techniques and guidelines.

[StickyHands]

I think the term martial - military- speaks for itself. If you're talking normal civil SD course, they are very much nothing compared to a real MA school, let say you're attacker is a MA student gone psychotic, I doubt those women-oriented SD course will do you much good. Yes, it's true MA are traditional and weren't created for modern violence, but, lol, those MA I'd say were created for feudal times much worse than we have now. So calling it traditional or modern, hmmm, which would you rather study, a SD course or a good MA? Now being shot by a gun, that's whole another perspective. If your saying people dont study MA these days for combat and simply for health benefit, lol, well I hope you're getting as much as you're paying for over the years. As for combat arts for the military forces, if you haven't noticed, a lot of the militaries around the world are being taught aikido, jujutsu, hapkido, san shou, sambo, etc.

[HuangKaiVun]

All three arts have somewhat different training methods.

But when you get in a real fight, it all becomes a wash.

Fighting is fighting.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


But when you get in a real fight, it all becomes a wash.
Fighting is fighting.

Of course fighting is fighting.. racing is racing.. i can race a John Deere against a Porsche.. fighting has many aspects, to assert that "it all becomes a wash" implies an inability to utilize the training one has invested so much into.. The fighting i would do today (since i haven't been in a street situation in over a year) is significantly different than what i did 15 years ago.. it's not a "wash", it's the result of training.. Too often, people assume that "their" experiences are the expreiences of others.. what is a wash for one may be a validation of training for another.. Keep an open mind..

Be well..

[Muppet]

Yup. You fight using the tools/skills you've acquired and refined.

It would be ridiculous to think that boxers and wrestlers (or more generally, strikers and grapplers) would fight in a real-life situation the same way.

Taiji definitely has options which Hsing I doesn't, though this isn't necessarily a good thing for taiji at large.

[StickyHands]

I think he was speaking specifically for the interal arts. During a real life situation, using either of the 3 arts would prevail the same results, different sort of trainings, win or lose, but it's the ardour of training that makes it "fighting is fighting". I dont think he was meaning as broad as striker vs grappler or a person trained in high school wrestling against a shaolin monk fighter would have the same skills.

[HuangKaiVun]

Well said, StickyHands.

My style of training is for those who have actually fought, not for those who have never done it.

I see the commonalities in fighting styles, not the differences. Hence my "wash" statement.

Besides, the result of fighting is either one survives or he doesn't. That is the bottom line, regardless of style.

If you don't fight or train to, you'll be exposed in combat no matter how much you emphasize your differences.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Humble apologies.. i misinterpreted your post.. it seemed to say that when it's "on", the training is "off" and it's just brawling.. if you intended otherwise, i apologize..

If we don't train to fight, we're in the wrong forum.. This is Internal "Martial" Arts.. You can be assured contact is an elemental part of my school's curriculum..

Be well..

[HuangKaiVun]

I'm really no different from you, TaiChiBob.

Our training methods are probably similar, if not identical.

[Knifefighter]

================================================== =...(tendon strength allows the muscles to relax so we don't fight ourselves)
================================================== =
Muscle tissue force production brings about all body movements. Tendons attach muscle to bone. Tendons don’t have anything to do with muscular tension, or lack thereof. Muscle relaxation is determined by the neurons that enervate the muscle.


================================================== =
Honest in my current kwoon everybodies T-Shirt ends up the same colour at the end of the lesson, I never sweated as much as in TJQ.
================================================== =
Sweating does not necessarily mean you are improving your fitness. Cardiovascular fitness is increased by stressing the cardiovascular system (breathing harder). Strength is increased by working the muscles at a high enough load that they fatigue in less than about two minutes. Muscular endurance requires working the muscles for an extended amount of time until they are fatigued.

================================================== =
Too much muscle inhibits flexibility and speed.
================================================== =
In 90% of cases increasing muscle mass increases speed in that specific muscle. With the exception of extreme hypertrophy, muscle mass does not inhibit flexibility.

.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

To be clear.. i should have said longer tendons with greater cross-sectional area permit the muscle to transfer energy more efficiently to the bone during the leverage motion.. But, in short, tendon training enhances efficient muscle use.. you are correct, the muscle doesn't "relax", it simply doesn't need to work as hard to accomplish the same task when the tendons are properly trained..


Muscle mass can be a factor when the muscle is so heavily developed that it interferes with the ability to take the adjacent joints through their complete range of motion (for example, large hamstrings limit the ability to fully bend the knees). Excess fatty tissue imposes a similar restriction.
http://galway.informatik.uni-kl.de/staff/weidmann/pages/stretch/stretching_3.html#SEC21

From personal experience and interaction with others my "insight" into this issue is that there is a balance that frequently is discarded in favor of "aesthetics".. a strong muscular body frequently compromises a certain range of motion..

One man's myth is another man's truth.. we will each rationalize our own beliefs..

Be Well..

[Muppet]

Sorry, I just don't see it.

The grappling/striking was just an example to highlight how different things can be with different training.

If it's all a wash, then why even bother with tai chi?
Why not just learn Hsing I?

Granted, the difference between Hsing I and Tai Chi isn't at the same scope as BJJ and Boxing but just because bottom line is to win, doesn't mean it all becomes a wash.

Certain styles suit better than others for whatever reason.

[StickyHands]

Hmm then tell me why do u train what you train instead of training something else, i.e. if you train xingyi, why dont u train Tai Chi? You made a good point, but a subtle explanation.

[HuangKaiVun]

Here's how it goes, Muppet:

The instant somebody throws a punch at your head and your arm goes up to block it, you'll realize that a raised arm is a raised arm no matter what the system calls it (Single Palm Change or Pi Chuan or Play Guitar . . . )

[Muppet]

You have a point but...

A straight punch is a punch whether you call it "beng chuan", a parry and right cross/jab, or "deflect, parry & punch.

Yes, the basic tools are shared but that's not surprising considering there's only so many ways you can perform a good punch (or kick, etc.).

When I miss, how do I follow up?
When I connect, how do I follow up?
When the guy is swinging, what does my training incline me to do?

Heck, if we restrict Hsing I's techniques strictly to the scope of boxing's rules (e.g., just fists, etc.), it still has a different approach than western boxing.

Now with everything that's out there, I've been lead to believe Tai chi's wider footwork emphasizes a wider stance for stability whereas Hsing I (and bagua) emphasizes a narrower stance for mobility. To hazard a guess, tai chi almost needs stuff like push hands and "stickiness" training to make up for its relative lack of mobility.

Different tools, different footwork, etc. It all seems to make for approaches which are different.

[Muppet]

StickyHands, I train what I train mainly because I'm following this advice: Hsing I, bagua, or taiji, if you're lucky enough to find a genuine teacher willing to teach the goods, put whatever pre-conceived preferences you may have and take it.

This is a lot harder than I first thought. Where I live, I went to several different teachers with great reputations (applicable for fighting, etc.), but looking back now, none of them were really teaching what was advertised.

Now if I had a choice of any three with all other things being equal, I'd probably take Hsing I anyway. Of all three arts, Hsing I has the least-steep learning curve because it keeps things relatively simple, and since MA isn't my entire life, this little detail is important and attractive.

[StickyHands]

Looks like we fall in the same category :cool: But please let me be blunt one more time and ask, then why Xingyi and not Karate?

[Muppet]

Well, many reasons, really, though I've picked up on an external style.

Basically, for the time and effort put into many of these external styles, I figured I was better off taking PROVEN stuff like muay thai or western striking methods. I shopped around and even dabbled in some (wing chun, TKD, etc.) but none of them really felt "right". Some seemed like a joke, others just didn't fit my profile.

On the other hand, styles like muay thai is a bit much for me at this point in my life and just as important, I'm not much of a kicker so boxing is my choice.



Another reason is that way back when, I picked up a copy of Jane Hallander's compilation of different kung fu styles.

For some reason, the Hsing I, bagua, and taiji sections got me curious as to what all this internal stuff was about. Then, the more I looked into it and read up on it, the more I wanted to find a real teacher and see this internal stuff for myself, and here I am, having found the real deal and slowly getting started.

[ShaolinWood]

Taiji training can be very effective in 5 years of study( If you learn from the right master) The remaining time of study is perfecting.

The kind of perfecting that you will never get in Kickboxing or a "street-wise" style.
I totally agree that the "cage" is a barberic display of greedy testosterone. It's about money and ego, Exactly the opposite of good character. Taiji and gongfu teaches good character.

This should be clear and anyone who practice taiji or good gongfu knows that patience is a virtue.

The real difference is a 60 year old Taiji practitioner will still kick royal butt where no one else will.

[jun_erh]

Fitness should not be measured by muscle mass.. it is an all-round development of mind, body and spirit..

So shouldn't muscle development be part of that?




Also, My teacher's teacher (he refers to him as sipa) was also in his seventies when he taught him kuo shu and san shou. My teacher said he had the hardest punch he's ever felt. Plus, other things besides muscle and power go with age, like reflexes, speed, etc. It depends on your personality I think.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Absolutely.. Muscle development should be a part of fitness development.. but, sheer muscle mass is not indicative of a full understanding of the art.. Most of the really good fighters i know are finely cut, well toned, and of medium muscle mass.. their (and my own) understanding is strength fails at the expense of flexibility.. By my own experience, development is a blend of skill, strength, stamina, character and health... Body, mind and spirit, no single aspect more or less important than another..