Empty Force (again!)

[David]

Yesterday, I met an old guy who learned a Korean Style called "Sun Path" which may be this one (
http://www.taekwondo.co.il/enlightenment.html).

He did the most annoying trick on me. I hold my arm out front and he tries to force it down. It's an even struggle where I gradually lose some ground. Then we do it again and he says he's going to use his 'method' on me. Needless to say, resistance was futile.

He indulged me by going over this again and again and again in different conditions with him telling me what he intends and without him saying. I had plenty of time to assess the forces involved and the tensions and psyched myself against suggestion but still he would collapse me at will and I'd watch in horror as my arm dropped. The trick was definitely not in what he said and he didn't hit any points.

Worst of all, he got someone else (a non-MA friend of his) to do it to me with the same results except in the 'normal' mode the guy couldn't move my arm in the slightest and in the magic mode my resistance was futile. grrr

This, by the way, is very similar to an experience I had with another old boy who was some kind of inner gate karate master in a style which looked like kungfu but was Okinawan (where the guy learned the advanced stuff). This guy did hit points in the arm.

What's it all about, please? All you charlatans that demo this trick, own up! come clean! :D

-David

PS In case it's not clear, this man insists that it's all spiritual MA and it needs no physical contact. I think the idea of the other guy doing it to me was supposed to be an example of him putting his power through the other guy. Or something...

[yenhoi]

Like guohuen said.

Ive seen tai chi guys do this for fun and call it all sorts of neat chi-names. My teacher will do it to randoms and tell them he is breaking their chi aura.

good fun at partys. same ole same ole for body technicians.

:D

[Former castleva]

http://www.uechi-ryu.com/oldsite/an_empty_force.htm

Charlatans beware. :cool:

[greendragon]

That is a common technique used by alternative health care people. You can be made very strong as well. This is related to "applied kinesiology". Your resistance can be manipulated by a simple thought pattern much like one can influence a pendulum.

[Internal Boxer]

Yeah I can see it now..........Tank Abbot mysteriously waving his arms in front of Frank Shamrock to disrupt his chi aura :rolleyes:

[rubthebuddha]

nah. that was tank just forgetting his speed stick.

[Xebsball]

the "i move your arm effortlessly" thing is a very common trick, i dont think its got nothing to do with chi or whatever

[Skummer]

Here's a site with some similar tricks...

http://www.bodymindandmodem.com/CoolKi/CoolKi.html

[Former castleva]

Sweet avatar Xebs.

Very common aikido tricks like "unbendable",nothing phenomenal.

[David]

I'm familiar with the unbendable arm trick which is all about suggestion. "Look ahead in the direction your arm is pointing. Feel as though your arm extends out from you hundreds of feet. Imagine reaching and touching a tree or building that is a long distance away" - this is a specific instruction to activate the triceps where the earlier instruction tricks the victim into using their biceps to keep the arm extended.


This one I don't get. I had no instructions and it still happened.:confused:

I hate tricks grrr.

-David

[Former castleva]

Just in case someone is interested in a great amount of money and demonstrating chi,they can go check randi.org for further instructions.
:)
Way to go.

[PLCrane]

Originally posted by guohuen
You're almost always going to loose in a open gate situation. He was simply closing an open gate in your structure.

What do you mean? Could you elaborate? What accounts for the difference between being able to resist and not? The reason I ask is because I can do this, and I've tried to eliminate all confounding factors, like pushing harder or pushing before the person is ready to resist or making suggestions, so that the only difference between trials is my intent. I'd really like to understand what's going on here.

PLC

[PLCrane]

That doesn't seem like an adequate explanation. I can test someone's arm 10 times, and can make it strong or weak any number of times and in any order, so it doesn't appear to be related to fatigue. Can test in other positions, so that gravity isn't a factor (e.g. with the person lying face down on a bench, with arm out to side, and try to pull their arm down toward their side.) This also eliminates visual cues. I suppose I should replace my vocal command with something neutral and repeatable, like a light or a bell. Just in case I have special powers in my voice to make someone else weak.

If I had instrumentation to measure the pressure of my push, the excursion on my arm and their arm, and the timing on all this, I'd get some numbers and see if I can figure out what's going on. (that's a hint to any of you engineer types who may have this stuff lying around and are willing to let me use it.)


PLC

[David]

Thx for posting PLC. As I mentioned, I was allowed to control the manner in which the testing was done and there were trials in which no vocal or visual cues were present. For exampe in a trial of three, runs, he said nothing and I just looked away the whole time, announcing I was ready for each successive run. The result was that on at least one run I'd collapse for no apparent reason.

The nature of spm training means I do have plenty of endurance with outstretched arms resisting in that direction so I wasn't getting tired - just defeated.

Hopefully, I'll meet up with the guy again. I'm sure he'll laugh that I'm still thinking about it...

-David

[Repulsive Monkey]

I'm sorry but Randi is as about as a cerdible as a logical scientist and analyst as Michael Jackson is as a normal run-of-the-mill human. The Randi challenge is so fraught with loop-holes that anyone fake or genuine NEVER gets through. He totally biased and has made up his own scientifictic conditions of observation and analysy which are totally no-win which ever way you look at it.
Some think these empty-forcers are crack-pots??? Well you could be right but their credibility is as of the same level as Randi's scientific nonsense too. The man's a crack-pot.

[OdderMensch]

What so unscientific about a double blinded study? Everyone in the selected experiment, includeing the "empty force master" agreed it was a fair test.

Randi never makes claim to being a scientist, and as for fraud and loopholes in the chalenge.....it's all very clearly laid out, both parties must agree to the testing procedure before hand, Randi just puts up the money.

What was unfair about the given test?

[Repulsive Monkey]

I've read transcipts to lot of other test he does and it's not as double-blind as he makes out. There are plenty of genuine people who have said that the requirements to make him convinced that he's wrong are near impossible to prove. One has to ask themselves why he goes to these lengths to do this when most people would say in life people lie and people tell the truth from time to time. He seems to created this moral crusade to pull out all the fakers (and in his mind he has never ever come across a genuine seer etc).
I was shocked at the alphabetic articles he has at his sight where he lempoons every single thing that is even mildly esoteric or has a whiff of being "NOT NORMAL".
I feel the man has personal issues with declaration and those areas where science goes quiet and gray on matters in life, I feel he is a very scared man who needs absolute order in life to feel safe.

[OdderMensch]

But presumably, there was nothing wrong with this test, correct? And what proof would you want, if I said I could see the future, or read your mind? I'd love to see "paranormal abilities" in my fellow man, but I don't have a million dollars, Randi does. To date no one has met his challange, the Gracies themselves have nothing on this man for brass balls.

[Former castleva]

Yeah.I agree.

One can always check my signature and go check for information.

[PLCrane]

If you want to read about experimental verification of psi phenomena, like action at a distance and remote sensing, do a search for Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research Labs.

[Former castleva]

I think I´ll leave psi for parapsychology,which can be considered a pseudoscience on it´s own though.

[OdderMensch]

Do you post/lurk over at the JREF forums? It's a fun place. Now and then I bring up Chi or Iron Palm topics and get some very good responses.

[Former castleva]

Yes,I do.
I do post when I find it appropriate.
Let´s say I have posted a few replies to a chi related thread,as some other stuff.

Good responses in which terms? :)