Cheungs "Wing Chun gradings by post" course [Archive]

anerlich

04-20-2003, 04:27 PM

Though it wouldn't be my first choice or recommendation, I think it is possible to learn an MA via well produced video combined with regular private lessons from a competent instructor.

This sort of thing is common with BJJ, where there are few black belts outside major cities. A commitment to regular training with some committed partners, and pooling the cost of transporting a good teacher in for private lessons, is a model that has bought competitive success for some trainees that live in remote areas.

GM Cheung is good at devising new ways to make a buck and is appears to have little reservation in charging substantial fees. You mightn't like it, but it's not illegal. You are free not to partake.

Nor is he the only one. The WT organisation (among many others, including the WWCKFA) are astute business people trying to extract money from the wallets of as many punters as possible, though their model seems to be a kwoon on every street corner in every country of the world rather than remote tuition. IMO there is nothing intrinsically immoral about that.

To me the insistence that the only model for martial education is one on one or in a small group with a Sifu ignores the realities of modern life, educational principles, and betrays IMO an unrealistic romantic obsession with the plots of HK cinema.

Grendel

04-20-2003, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by UltimateFighter
I saw a link to this on another thread. It has to be a joke. Buying gradings by mail at obcene prices after watching a few videos? Has anyone heard of this? This seems to be a mockery of what martial arts is all about.

http://www.cheungswingchun.com/WingChun.corresp.special.html
Why pick on W. Cheung? Leung Ting's org has been know to promote anyone who pays, whether they attend the required seminar or not. Remove the log from your eye before you criticize the mote in another's.

pseudoswitch

04-20-2003, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by anerlich
Though it wouldn't be my first choice or recommendation, I think it is possible to learn an MA via well produced video combined with regular private lessons from a competent instructor..

If you were taking regular private lessons with a competent instructor, would you need to learn from videos? Supplementation can only go so far.

GM Cheung is good at devising new ways to make a buck and is appears to have little reservation in charging substantial fees. You mightn't like it, but it's not illegal. You are free not to partake.

But we are free to discern and criticise, as you have just done.

Nor is he the only one. The WT organisation (among many others, including the WWCKFA) are astute business people trying to extract money from the wallets of as many punters as possible, though their model seems to be a kwoon on every street corner in every country of the world rather than remote tuition. IMO there is nothing intrinsically immoral about that..

Now we are entering the realms of morality and ethics in martial arts, which could fill a huge thread of its own. It all depends on what your own personal understanding of morality is. Most people think that selling a product or service you know to be inferior and substandard to someone, is in effect, immoral, as you would not like to 'be taken' yourself. If someone believes the notion that it's ok to swindle people who don't know any better, then that's fine. Most self-respecting people though, don't.

To me the insistence that the only model for martial education is one on one or in a small group with a Sifu ignores the realities of modern life, educational principles, and betrays IMO an unrealistic romantic obsession with the plots of HK cinema.

Which one on one or small group tuition would that be then? The ones you mentioned at the start of your post maybe? Yes, watching videos is entertaining and can be an informative supplement to quality training. That is not the issue here though. We are talking about beginners being taught from nothing but videos.

anerlich

04-20-2003, 06:27 PM

If you were taking regular private lessons with a competent instructor, would you need to learn from videos?

Videos, books and other reference materials provide guidelines that can be analysed and reviewed repeatedly in the absence of a teacher. If one has only occasional access to a teacher, such materials may be extremely valuable.

It is debatable whether what is being compared is the product (MA training) or the distribution system (direct or by video). The fact that the method of tuition may be inferior does not imply necessary imply that what is taught is bad. Someone who had the choice between learning by video at expense as opposed to driving half an hour to a school may see the vdeo option as poor. Someone in Antartica or on an oil rig in the middle of an ocean may see it as much better than having no tuition at all.

.
But we are free to discern and criticise, as you have just done.

Did I say you (or I) were not?

Now we are entering the realms of morality and ethics in martial arts,

I think now "we" are actually discussing morality and ethics in sales, marketing and business. The fact that the product is MA tution adds no extra moral dimension IMO.

That is not the issue here though. We are talking about beginners being taught from nothing but videos.

I thought the topic under discussion had a number of interpretations, and did not realise you had been appointed thread moderator.

wingchunalex

04-20-2003, 06:32 PM

I think learning some stuff from a video is okay, as long as you don't expect to be very serious with it. I think if you have a martial arts background videos can be a fun way to spice up your repitoir.

what i didn't like about that program is all the extra stuff that you have to get along with it, the uniform, jacket, book, card, ect. the price of all that extra stuff is outragious.

Wing Lam has some very nice video's for home instruciton in shaolin but they don't make you buy the school shirt, jacket, uniform, belt,. its just the videos.

When I was a little bored with wing chun around my second year I bought some instructional videos in shaolin stuff to spice up my repitoir. I had the urge to jump and leap around like the guys in the movies, and that satisfied that for me. (I was like 14-15 at the time). I even won 4th place at a tournament with the shaolin staff form i learned. so it was fun. but now my wing chun is more important.

Like with me, there weren't any shaolin kung fu schools around, and i didn't want to actually learn from two sifu's, I just wanted to "play with kung fu". I think if video's are your only oppion, then i think they "can" work. but they work a lot better if you've had some martial arts, cause you have more of an eye for looking at important things, like your toe pointing 45 degrees in the bow stance, etc.

pseudoswitch

04-20-2003, 08:29 PM

Originally posted by anerlich

Videos, books and other reference materials provide guidelines that can be analysed and reviewed repeatedly in the absence of a teacher. If one has only occasional access to a teacher, such materials may be extremely valuable.

Yes i agree they can be useful, but as a supplement to direct regular training, not as a substitute for it. As a substitute for it, i think the student will be worse off in the long run.

It is debatable whether what is being compared is the product (MA training) or the distribution system (direct or by video).

Em, i was under the impression it was about the video aspect. Maybe i was wrong? Was the first post just an attack on the cheung style then?

The fact that the method of tuition may be inferior does not imply necessary imply that what is taught is bad.

I agree with you. However, i think the manner in which the knowledge is transmitted is as important as the quality of the material.

Someone who had the choice between learning by video at expense as opposed to driving half an hour to a school may see the vdeo option as poor. Someone in Antartica or on an oil rig in the middle of an ocean may see it as much better than having no tuition at all.

Would YOU see it as better than nothing? Do you study from videos yourself? Or do you just watch them for their informative aspect??? Did your sifu study from videos??? Would you study under a person who qualified through a video correspondance course with occasional lessons???

I thought the topic under discussion had a number of interpretations, and did not realise you had been appointed thread moderator.

Hehe, good one :p Yes of course it has a number of interpretations. I was just disagreeing with yours. I think video instruction is a good supplement to training, it's informative. It gets you thinking and asking questions. But it shouldn't become a substitute for direct instruction. The video correspondance course in question i think leans way too far towards the substitute end. As far as the quality of the material being presented is concerned, i won't comment as i have no basis for comparrison, i have never studied the cheung style.

Regards,

sel

04-21-2003, 12:04 AM

i've just had a good look through the whole site. this is not a political post, so please don't bother with political arguments. i can see by this forum that a few of you train in twc (gm cheung). my question relates to this series of photographs depicting defence against a gun.
would one of you (twc people) please explain the rationality of this defence to me?

http://www.cheungswingchun.com/CDT/CDT.3.html

i understand that these are photographs and do not convey the full movements, but something here is wrong. very very wrong.

A) it is my understanding that when defending against a weapon the first thing you do is get the weapon away from your body (if you cannot completely disarm them immediately) ok, this is done in photograph 2.
B)the second thing you do is keep the weapon away from your body. no way should you risk any movement which will bring the weapon back towards your body and/or past the line of your body. i would say this is especially true if the weapon is a gun, but with any weapon it is the safer way. (photo 2-3)
C) if you get to the attackers blind side you stay there and attack on the blind side. you don't give them another chance by bringing them back to their open side.(photo 2-3)
D) (photo 4) what is stopping the guy on the ground kicking him?

there are other things which are puzzling me too, but i'll leave it at that.

S.Teebas

04-21-2003, 02:10 AM

Im not a TWC guy but...

Looks like hes circled the arm over his body then snaped the wrist. Seems like it could work. I dont necessaraly agree this is the best option, but its workable.

sel

04-21-2003, 03:07 AM

thanks s.teebas,
i can see what you are saying. hmmm. ok.
i'm still hoping to hear from one of the twc people to verify. it must be a technique taught there, so they should be able to explain it rationally i'm sure.

Mr Chips

04-21-2003, 03:57 AM

Perhaps i can help a bit. First point, this stuff is not actually taught to TWC students, it's a separate course that is used for instructing law enforcement people, that sort of thing, so chances are most TWC people haven't done this technique before.
I'm guessing that the main reason it looks a bit dodgy is because sequential photos are a vary poor way of illustrating dynamic situations. I imagine that between photos 2 and 3 W. Cheung is stepping, rather than just using his arms, so the gun is not necessarily moving closer to him, and in that movement he has not had the gun in a position where it is actually pointing at him. In photo 4 i would also guess that he is just showing the basic move, whereas in reality he would probably be attacking the guy on the ground.

Like most photo series it is pretty unrealistic because it only shows the ideal, there is no way to show possible variations etc.

sel

04-21-2003, 04:14 AM

mm, i've heard that gm cheung utilises special footwork.......i can see that from photo 1-2 he has pivoted around, but, sorry, i don't mean to argue, but i can't see a step there. there is a line down the wall and across the floor...his feet clearly havent moved between photo 2 and 3.
photo 4, i can see the logic in what you are saying there. thanks.

i agree that it is hard to portray numerous movements in only a few static photographs. that's why i was hoping someone would be able to explain it. perhaps someone who has learned this technique? or an instructor who has taught it?

thanks again mr chips.

Mr Chips

04-21-2003, 05:32 AM

glad i could help, if only a bit. Hopefully one of the instructors, or someone with more experience will have a better idea than me. At the risk of being an a'hole, the fact that the GMs feet seem to be in the same place does not prove that he hasn't/ or wouldn't take a step at that point, rather it points to my suggestion that these photos don't accurately show what is going on. We don't know what went on between those frames being taken. Photo one could be from the first take, and it could have taken until the hundredth take to get photo two right. That is assuming they didn't just pose the shots at each individual point.
From what i know of TWC i would think he pivots (as you say) and then takes a step to pull the guy off balance. Now that i think about it it's probably even more complex, with more than 1 step. Bloody photos:D

anerlich

04-21-2003, 05:43 AM

I'm from TWC lineage, but we left the WWCKFA in 1996. I don't have a problem with video tuition per se, but I've been told about the skeletons in the WWCKFA closet by people who have seen them.

If you're talking about the combatives and gun defenses being marketed by the WWCKFA right now, I wouldn't go near it. It's about as good as some of the "WC/T antigrappling" stuff being sold by that organisation and others.

If that's your area of interest, I'd suggest looking up someone with actual experience in police work or combat, like W. Hock Hochheim for example.

UltimateFighter

04-21-2003, 07:15 AM

My main problem with the Cheung video scheme is the possibility that people may be misinformed into paying the ridiculous prices for what is basically a set of videos and a few extras such as different uniforms etc. It is hard to make a point like this without sounding political, as many wing chun branches are guilty of marketing etc, but this to me seems to be in another league altogether. There are other videos on the market that teach techniques, but none at such ludicrous and blatant con prices, and this is also the first time I have seen "grades" awarded for video displays. The BJJ vdeos of which you can get which teach techniques are a good supplement and can teach ground skills (plus at normal prices, around $40 each, or a set of 5 for $150 whcih cover many aspects), but they do not claim to make you a martial artist by watching them only and you will certainly never get a "grade" from a video. Especially a style like WC wich relies on feeling and "contact practice" It seems that the main objective from the "correspondence course" is money making whether from misguided people, or others who wish to "buy" themselves martial arts grades complete with certificate and uniforms and feel a false sense of achievment and validification.

I added up the prices for the complete video course, all ten levels- adds to $7050 dollars! (Check it yourself). This seems to be for people who want to buy themselves grades and can afford the thousands of dollars needed for it. I think the scheme is appalling and my respect for Cheung has dwindled significantly seeing this . I can see no benefits of paying such prices for what is on offer. Even if there were no WC schools nearby, there would surely be another art which could be trained for real, at a much lower cost and there benefits much better. This sort of thing only gives martial arts everywhere a bad name.

Phil Redmond

04-21-2003, 09:49 AM

While Cheung's CTD Program is slanted towards law enforcement training, the basic configuration also lends itself to military Special Operations Forces as well as to Paramilitary training. This has led to Grandmaster Cheung's recent alliance with the people of Global Studies Group, Inc. (GSGI).

It has created the latest development in the practical application of martial arts, in this case, Traditional Wing Chun, for use in training procedures and programs for Special Warfare and Special Reaction Teams. The majority of GSGI's programs are geared toward training-the-trainers, which are modelled after the Domestic Preparedness Training Initiative, which focuses specifically on the enhancement of crisis management capabilities for groups and organisations responding to criminal and/or terrorist activities.

Along with Grandmaster Cheung, the personnel who comprise Global Studies Group, Inc. (GSGI) are all most qualified and the blend is well suited for the task at hand:

Mr. Harry Humphries - The founder of GSGI. A former Navy Seal with extensive combat and counter terrorism experience. He is a leading authority in Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) threat awareness and crises management procedures. Humphries is currently participating in the "Master Instructor Program", Police Training Institute, Illinois University. He is a former instructor of Advanced SWAT Hostage Rescue Training at Eastern Michigan University and is a former GUNSITE Training Center Adjunct Instructor (Tactical Operations). Humphries has also starred in movies such as "The Siege", "The Rock", "Con Air" and "GI Jane", as well as being responsible for the combat choreography for those films.
Lt. Commander (Ret.) Scott Lyon - 30 years experience in the US Navy. Trained as instructor in UDT/SEAL BUDS. As a member of a Special Warfare Group, he has led men in over 300 combat raids and missions in three different combat theatres, including the first liberation of 28 POW's in Vietnam in 1968. He was decorated 28 times which made him one of the most decorated servicemen in the U.S.
Commander (Ret.) Richard Marcinko - 30 years experience in the US Navy. The Founder and Head of SEAL TEAM SIX. He has authored many books on his exploits in the Navy Seals as well as a New York Times business bestseller, "The Rogue Warrior's Strategy for Success: A Commando's Principles of Winning". Marcinko runs a private security firm whose clients include governments and corporations. He also heads a motivational training and team-building company.

It is interesting to note, given the qualifications of all persons connected with this alliance, that it has come to fruition at this time. Many police and military administrators have downplayed the use of traditional martial arts in their training methods for many years. They would say that (traditional martial arts) are not realistic in their approach or their training, often that they're just a sport. Or comments like 'they're too complex to learn quickly' or 'too hard to incorporate with the rest of our program'.

For Grandmaster William Cheung to convince these highly-qualified, professional warriors of the continuing need for traditional martial arts to play a part in the successful defence of neighbourhoods, cities and even countries is a solid step for all martial arts practitioners. Even in today's environment of guns, missiles and nuclear weapons, traditional martial arts still plays a major role in the continuance of our survival.

Stevo

04-21-2003, 09:54 AM

Why not learn to stand on eggs? That way, you have a ready supply of eggs to launch at an armed attacker.

Phil Redmond

04-21-2003, 09:54 AM

His front foot steps away from the weapon first then the turn. This is a commonly taught technique in many law enforcement circles and un Krav Magra.

1renox

04-21-2003, 10:59 AM

Sijogung's TWC is a good and street effective system. I've had to apply it twice and it does work. I've also done some CDT and I've heard some word-of-mouth critique of the LD learning tapes. I've heard they are failry good for beginners, but I have never actually seen the course.

As a TWC student going on 5 years now I can say that some of the students I've come in conact with--and I've only discussed this with 5 or 6 other students across the US--we just wished WWCKFA would concentrate on the core TWC.

For me personally, I think the LDL courses mistakenly give other MA the impression that WWCKFA is along the lines of some McDojo. As we all know, proper WC cannot be learned from a tape. The WWCKFA is headquartered in Australia and perhaps there are some cultural differences and market forces there in which things like the LDL courses along with the assocatied uniforms and other paraphanalia are accepted more readily. I don't know if that is a valid hypothesis, though.

Gandolf269

04-21-2003, 12:02 PM

It seems that the people who are condoning the "learn by video" method have been ones who, in the past, have said that it is impossible to learn Wing Chun by video, the internet, or the forums. I think that videos can be a helpfull addition to personal instruction if you don't have the ability to get to a kwoon to train regularly. But, I don't see any personal instruction mentioned in the ad in question.

Also, I don't see learning by video alone as being the same as "having a kwoon on every corner". This is just an observation. I don't want to get into a political argument. :)

Ultimatewingchun

04-21-2003, 02:17 PM

SEL:

There is footwork in the move in question that can't be gleaned from the photos. Also, go back to photo 3 and picture to to yourself 3A, if you will, as being taking the gun over your head (circling around your own head to avoid the gun beoming yet again a danger) 3-3A-4

The photos also don't really depict the wrist lock that gets applied, further disabling the man with the gun...

These moves are part of TWC....not just the defense course.

Work with the move and see for yourself...it works for me.

I personally am not crazy about correspondence courses, but they're better then nothing if an instructor is not available, I suppose.

sel

04-21-2003, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
His front foot steps away from the weapon first then the turn. This is a commonly taught technique in many law enforcement circles and un Krav Magra.

sifu redmond, thankyou. that's strange though. if he has taken a step, he has placed his foot exactly back in it's starting position then. gm cheung claims that his system has fantastic "footwork" and yet he has omitted it from the photos! that's a shame.

and sifu parlati, thankyou as well. i guess that law enforcement have to do things in a certain way? i would not be so lenient to a person with a gun. if i could get to photo 2 position without being shot, i would elbow him in the neck and break it immediately. another alternative, drive my knee straight through his forearm. that would make him drop the gun eh??!!

anerlich

04-21-2003, 10:36 PM

The WWCKFA is headquartered in Australia and perhaps there are some cultural differences and market forces there in which things like the LDL courses along with the assocatied uniforms and other paraphanalia are accepted more readily. I don't know if that is a valid hypothesis, though.

These vids were produced in conjunction with US service personnel by the sound of it. The Australian SAS would almost certainly tell anyone approaching them with such a notion to get their hand off it.

As an Aussie, I can tell you there are indeed cultural differences. Aussies in general have a much lower tolerance for bu**sh*t than their US counterparts.

And when it comes to PRODUCING b**sh*t, the Yanks are way ahead of all of the rest of the world put together by several orders of magnitude, though I concede a few anomalies like Steve Irwin and Crocodile Dundee.

I would imagine that the target market was the US, not Australia. Ridiculous hyperbole goes over much better with American than Australian audiences, except during elections, but even then the US leaves us eating dust.

It should also be remebered that just about every instructor of every discipline ever featured in Black Belt has allegedly taught Navy Seals, Special Forces or some other equally bada$$ group.

Australia also has pretty strict importation laws with regards to such material. Anything involving "combat", knives or guns is likely to be banned. This is a fact, whatever your opinion of the policy.

John Weiland

04-21-2003, 11:25 PM

Originally posted by anerlich
As an Aussie, I can tell you there are indeed cultural differences. Aussies in general have a much lower tolerance for bu**sh*t than their US counterparts.
Anerlich, what has gotten into you?
LOL! And you have spent how much time in America? You're the one who admits that your government controls your right to import a videotape. MIght give you ideas. You downtrodden yokels might start a revolution. :rolleyes:

And when it comes to PRODUCING b**sh*t, the Yanks are way ahead of all of the rest of the world put together by several orders of magnitude

That's because we're better at everything. :D

I would imagine that the target market was the US, not Australia. Ridiculous hyperbole goes over much better with American than Australian audiences

That is ridiculous hyperbole. America has a lot more Wing Chun. No one here buys William's videos. They're produced for the third world--British Commonwealth nations.

Australia also has pretty strict importation laws with regards to such material. Anything involving "combat", knives or guns is likely to be banned. This is a fact, whatever your opinion of the policy.

My opinion is that it is intrusive government heavy-handedness. Why don't you vote the bums out and assert your human rights?

anerlich

04-21-2003, 11:46 PM

John,

I was joking, mainly in response to the original "cultural differences" post, by someone who's obviously not spent much time with any Aussies.

As for "asserting our human rights", here the human rights activists and gun owners generally hate each other. And as for voting them out, the main opposition party here is just as bad, and the smaller parties full of incompetents, zealots and lunatics.

In that regard, are we so far apart? :)

anerlich

04-21-2003, 11:49 PM

For Grandmaster William Cheung to convince these highly-qualified, professional warriors of the continuing need for traditional martial arts to play a part in the successful defence of neighbourhoods, cities and even countries is a solid step for all martial arts practitioners. Even in today's environment of guns, missiles and nuclear weapons, traditional martial arts still plays a major role in the continuance of our survival.

How do you feel about the latest edition of the US Army Combatives manual placing such a major emphasis on Brazilian Jiu Jitsu?

reneritchie

04-22-2003, 06:49 AM

Andrew Nerlich is, as usual, correct on all counts.

old jong

04-22-2003, 07:11 AM

Originally posted by anerlich

How do you feel about the latest edition of the US Army Combatives manual placing such a major emphasis on Brazilian Jiu Jitsu?
...Lee Marvin in "the dirty dozen"...."And now bunch of criminals,you are going to learn how to pull a fritz in your guard and work for a submission!"....Charles Bronson...." But sarge!...He will use his knife or his luger on us!"....Lee Marvin...."Shut up you animal!...Have'nt you seen UFC yet?...;)

1renox

04-22-2003, 08:19 AM

anerlich,

You are correct regarding my ingorance of Aussie culture.
Of the few I've met, the only difference of note was the accent.

But, I have been bitten by an emu if that counts for anything.

KingMonkey

04-22-2003, 09:43 AM

Disgraceful, pathetic, in isolation practically useless and exploitative.

Videos as a training aid to look at certain aspects are fine but they are no more appropriate to learn a whole martial arts system from than a wall-bag.
By Cheung's grading system you could reach the equivalent of Instructor level without ever having touched hands with anybody.

Justifying this sort of thing by saying it is appropriate for somebody living in a remote location is totally bogus. I could charge money to teach someone living in the Antarctic telepathically and use the same rationale.
Their ability to apply WC after a year of such training would probably be only slightly worse than a Cheungs video WC student.

anerlich

04-22-2003, 05:29 PM

No worries.

Those emus are pretty scary up close, hey?

anerlich

04-22-2003, 05:33 PM

I could charge money to teach someone living in the Antarctic telepathically and use the same rationale.

It's been done, and from beyond the grave to boot - Matt Furey channelling the spirit of Farmer Burns :D

Grendel

04-22-2003, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by reneritchie
Andrew Nerlich is, as usual, correct on all counts.
You're only saying that because Canada is Oz without the sunshine. Where would you all be without us to protect you? :D

Grendel

04-22-2003, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by anerlich
No worries.

Those emus are pretty scary up close, hey?
Ant that's another thing. How could you guys let those oversized pigeons out to become a problem in America? Last time I was in Texas, one of 'em killed an animal control officer. And they taste bad too.

anerlich

04-22-2003, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by Grendel

You're only saying that because Canada is Oz without the sunshine. Where would you all be without us to protect you? :D

He was actually only saying it because I am, as usual, correct on all counts.

As for you protecting us, your "protection" of late seems to have involved the Australian SAS following you into Afghanistan, and a much larger contingent backing you up in Iraq. And Vietnam? With John Howard's lips as firmly attached to Dubya's posterior as they currently are, we'll no doubt look forward to your "protection" in Syria and North Korea as well. ;)

My opinions of America are somewhat skewed by working for American companies for 15 years. One of them was a good place to work, but man, the bureaucratic insanity that went on ...

pseudoswitch

04-24-2003, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by anerlich
we'll no doubt look forward to your "protection" in Syria and North Korea as well. ;)

hehe, Syria maybe, North Korea, not bloody likely :p

Grendel

04-24-2003, 03:14 PM

Hi Andrew,

Originally posted by anerlich
He was actually only saying it because I am, as usual, correct on all counts.

You do know socialism is a curable disease, don't you? :p Just take up arms and throw 'em out, just like we helped the Iraqis do.

As for you protecting us, your "protection" of late seems to have involved the Australian SAS following you into Afghanistan, and a much larger contingent backing you up in Iraq.

Australian involvement has been small but important, I would say. At least you didn't put generals in charge of your troops who would waste them a la Gallipoli, eh? Tell me how you believe Oz can stay isolated from a world embroiled in terror from Islamic fundamentalists?

And Vietnam?

Are they threatening you now? Where have I been during that? :) We should have killed all the communists long ago instead of leaving them to abuse and kill Viet Nam's people and then to rebuild and threaten us again. :p

With John Howard's lips as firmly attached to Dubya's posterior as they currently are, we'll no doubt look forward to your "protection" in Syria and North Korea as well. ;)

So, you don't like John Howard? I try to stay abreast of things Australian, isn't he left-leaning enough for you?

My opinions of America are somewhat skewed by working for American companies for 15 years. One of them was a good place to work, but man, the bureaucratic insanity that went on ...

Must have been the Australian influence. :p Inefficient companies cannot survive here. Too much competition. Same is true of American Wing Chun. :p And fortunately, our politicians are responsive to us, because the people retain the power.

Regards,

Grendel

04-24-2003, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by pseudoswitch

hehe, Syria maybe, North Korea, not bloody likely :p
Not Syria, maybe N. Korea. Syria is a good lap dog now.

anerlich

04-24-2003, 04:42 PM

"At least you didn't put generals in charge of your troops who would waste them a la Gallipoli, eh?"

Actually, we normally blame that on the Poms. They "protected" us in WWI the same way as you are "protecting" us now.

"Tell me how you believe Oz can stay isolated from a world embroiled in terror from Islamic fundamentalists?"

Never said it could. What I have trouble understanding is how you regard Oz joining US military campaigns as you "protecting" us. More the reverse, I'd say, as indeed was the case in Gallipoli.

BTW, today is Anzac Day here, where Australia and New Zealand remember the soldiers who lost their lives in the process of their "being protected" by the Brits and Yanks in WWI, WWII, Korea, Malaya, Borneo, Vietnam, etc.

As for John Howard, he's not left-leaning in any way shape or form. I'm no leftist either. My problem with him is that he's an uncontrollable political opportunist, trying (unsuccessfully) to pretend he's a statesman and humanitarian, with his vision stuck firmly in the middle of the 20th century.

Grendel

04-24-2003, 05:11 PM

Hi Andrew,

Originally posted by anerlich
"At least you didn't put generals in charge of your troops who would waste them a la Gallipoli, eh?"

Actually, we normally blame that on the Poms. They "protected" us in WWI the same way as you are "protecting" us now.

LOL! I was also including Canada in the "protection." Canada's military is lucky to be up to WWII standards. They are helpless. With us next door, they've grown complacent, fat, and stupid. And their vaunted health care system is so broken down that outside of the third world, they're the only country affected by SARS, and so much so, WHO has placed travel restrictions on them for Toronto.

"Tell me how you believe Oz can stay isolated from a world embroiled in terror from Islamic fundamentalists?"

Never said it could. What I have trouble understanding is how you regard Oz joining US military campaigns as you "protecting" us. More the reverse, I'd say, as indeed was the case in Gallipoli.

I may be mistaken, but aren't Aussie troops behind the lines? I haven't heard of them being involved in combat the way the Americans, Brits, and Poles are.

BTW, today is Anzac Day here, where Australia and New Zealand remember the soldiers who lost their lives in the process of their "being protected" by the Brits and Yanks in WWI, WWII, Korea, Malaya, Borneo, Vietnam, etc.

Aussies have a proud history. That's why we protect you. You wouldn't be worth it if you refused t' help.

As for John Howard, he's not left-leaning in any way shape or form.
Well, that's a breath of fresh air for a change.

I'm no leftist either.

Maybe not for Australia, but you would've been praising Saddam if you had lived in Baath Party Iraq.

My problem with him is that he's an uncontrollable political opportunist, trying (unsuccessfully) to pretend he's a statesman and humanitarian, with his vision stuck firmly in the middle of the 20th century.
Considering what was happening in the middle of the 20th century, maybe that's what your country needs. There are lots of changes in the last 53 years, and not all of them good. At least the Berlin Wall came down and Eastern Europe was freed (You're welcome, world), and now Iraqis have a shot at self-determination.

Oh, and did you know that Ted Nugent is a pro-gun, pro-hunting, honest-to-G-d conservative. I note his quote in your sig. :D

Regards,

anerlich

04-24-2003, 05:30 PM

Oh, and did you know that Ted Nugent is a pro-gun, pro-hunting, honest-to-G-d conservative. I note his quote in your sig.

You seem to have the idea I'm a tree-hugging Socialist. I'm not! I'd probably own guns for self-protection if the laws here didn't make it so god****ed impractical. I eat meat. I don't agree with Ted on everything, but I admire the fact that he has a philosophy and sticks to it, as well as his work ethic and the music itself.

I didn't really care for that comment about my sucking up to Saddam. Credit me with a little backbone.

Grendel

04-24-2003, 07:59 PM

Hi Andrew,

Originally posted by anerlich
You seem to have the idea I'm a tree-hugging Socialist. I'm not! I'd probably own guns for self-protection if the laws here didn't make it so god****ed impractical.

Americans own guns for self-protection, for hunting, and most importantly, to overthrow an oppressive government should the need arise. Didn't really work out too well for the South in our Civil War, however. But, then the good guys won.

I eat meat. I don't agree with Ted on everything, but I admire the fact that he has a philosophy and sticks to it, as well as his work ethic and the music itself.

Ted's a humanitarian. He donates lots and lots of game to charity. I've never met him, but he sounds like quite a good fellow.

I didn't really care for that comment about my sucking up to Saddam. Credit me with a little backbone.
That was only a hypothetical, "what if" situation, if you'd been stuck under his thumb like the Iraqis were for so long. It wasn't a personal attack on you. Doubtless the children were being raised to be good socialists. And I don't care for the cheap shots at the U.S.

We donate more charity to the world, not counting so-called foreign aid which often comes with strings attached, than the entire rest of the world combined, and the U.N., the World Bank, the Vatican, and other "representatives" of the greedy, er, "needy," constantly demand more. If they'd change their backward systems of government and economics they could provide for themselves. And are they grateful to receive our hand-outs? You wouldn't think so from the attacks we get in the U.N. and other bureaucratically burdened professional troublemakers. Everyone that backs the U.N. should come to New York to see how they live it up compared to the folks back home.

Humans need freedom, especially from other humans. Once a Saddam or Hitler, or Stalin assumes power, there's **** little that societies have been able to do from the inside.

Do you think anyone cares that we've gone a bit off-topic? How's this? Do you think Wing Chun could thrive underground in a totalitarian dictatorship and be a revolutionary force? :)

Regards,

anerlich

04-24-2003, 10:21 PM

G-man,

I've enjoyed the banter and good natured trade of insults a lot, but it's probably time to let it rest. None of it was particularly serious on my part.

"Do you think Wing Chun could thrive underground in a totalitarian dictatorship and be a revolutionary force?"

Not really. IMHO Wing Chun is a set of tools and strategies for combat, not a religion, philosophy of life, system of physical culture or path out of the wilderness. A set of tools which could be used for good or evil, as a number of HK movies have shown.

Indeed, I'd venture to say that some teachers and organisations (not necessarily or just in WC) work to enslave their students' minds rather than to free them.