Virtua Fighter 4 for PS2

[StickyHands]

Has anyone played yet? The game is pretty accurate form of tournaments, well almost. The styles portrayed is based on actual fighting style of real martial arts, well closer than any other games. Except, Akira is actually doing Karate and not Kung Fu, lol. And I doubt spinning back flips kicks of Jeet Kune Do by Jacky Bryants is a real MA feat, but anyway, for the most part, the moves are pretty feasible. As well as parry, throws, etc are well represented. Over all, great game, it does come closer to show real fighting, which is concise, slower, strategic, and well contemplated than brutality of Tekken. Although I like Tekken a lot too for its qualities. Lei Fei from VF4 is pretty down right superb, he portrays the Shaolin style. Although I do think the game could have assimilated some better storyline and tons of videos and intros like Tekken, but overall, awesome.

[GoldenSPARTAN]

I got the game its pretty good I wish thier could be more characters though. What real martial art style is close to Koen-Ken?

[StickyHands]

Oh that's easy, it's the Tiger and Swallow system. The only character is almost impossible to play with is Aoi. All of her moves her Aikido, ok good, but it's really pain in the butt to predict the opponent's attack and then execute the Aoi's grapplings and leverage. And Akira's combos are really insane to do, sometimes it's frustrating. But it's ok.

[lac]

actually, akira`s style is authentic Ba Ji Quan, probably coming from liu shu wen lineage.And i know one of his movement is taken from shaolin Xin Yi ba. So, basically he`s not doing karate, although he might be wearing a karate`s gi :)

[StickyHands]

Really, whoa, lol. Because he's strikes seem very straightforward like karate and his blocks look like Shotokan Karate, you know the blocks he uses to "damage" his opponent, looks a lot like kata pinan ni.

[The Yellow Dart]

I've got this game, and I love it!

Akira does Ba Ji Quan? That's very interesting. I was wondering what was up with all the shoulder thrusts and stepping palms, it all seemed so "internal" :)

[lac]

yes, indeed baji and also xingyi really look straight forward like karate, and they`re not very pretty to watch. But looks can be deceiving.

People say that Baji looks like Xingyi, but feels like chen tai chi. Baji`s power generation has similarity with chen tai chi. It is known as a powerful martial art prefered by the body guards.
Some people even says that baji is also an internal art.

You can look upon baji`s thread by people more knowledgable than me in the taijiquan and internal ma forum, as i only learn xingyi.

by the way, in xingyi forum at www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan ,
there`s a thread about vf4, whrn one of the member said that he met yu suzuki, the creator of vf. Suzuki said that he only took the martial arts where the masters can performs and really fight with their respective ma, and there`s not many of them. That said something about baji`s martial ability.

[StickyHands]

IC, your very infomative, thank you. Ummm if Baji a lot like Xingyi, then why the power of Baji is like Chen Tai Chi? Shouldn't be kinda like Xingyi? What is the difference then between the power generation between Xingyi and Tai Chi? Thanks.

[lac]

baji and xingyi have similar approach in fighting, that is aggressive and direct. But i think they got different approach in training, hence they have different outcomes :D

in the taichi and neijia section, this topic along with baji and chen tai ji things, has been discussed many times, just do some search in that section. I also remembered that some baji practitioners talks about baji in emptyflower board

[Kristoffer]

If you liked Yu Suzukis Virtua Fighter, the check out the SHENMUE series! You will LOVE it

[Vapour]

For what I heard, xingyiquan may have originated from Bajiquan. Bajiquan originated from region around Wudang and there seems to be some connection to Chen style as well.

[StickyHands]

Then why is Baji external? And somewhat easily defeated against, let say a proficient Tai Chi or Xingyi practitioner, if they both have same years and ardour for training?

[Kristoffer]

""Then why is Baji external? And somewhat easily defeated against, let say a proficient Tai Chi or Xingyi practitioner, if they both have same years and ardour for training?""


:rolleyes:


First of all, Baji is as far as I know internal. The rest is just stupid. Do you think that just because you train in a certain style you will be better at fighting? If a Baji practioner trains harder he will win over a muay thai practioner that trains like a bum. And vise versa

[StickyHands]

Ah u just generalized without a reason for ur conviction. i think u need to travel to the internal section of this board. lol

[Kristoffer]

What kind of a name is StickyHands anyway? Don't u use soap?
:D :p

[StickyHands]

Nah, people who's names ends with "offer" usually like to lick my fingers dry for me. lol

[Kristoffer]

Crap, good counter :D I have a ton of YO MAMA jokes but I won't go there..

lol

[StickyHands]

good for u, because as i recall it, they were 1995. too many kids were experimenting with their mommas. i was usually the one who laughed their ass off when i would hear about their life in the ghettos.

[Daredevil]

Originally posted by StickyHands
Then why is Baji external? And somewhat easily defeated against, let say a proficient Tai Chi or Xingyi practitioner, if they both have same years and ardour for training?

Uhh, right.

;)

[StickyHands]

Great, we just have another Kristoffer in our hand. People just dont get it that when you answer question, back it up with explanation. lol. But then again, look where we are.

(Because notice when I mentioned same ardour for training, meaning same number of years of training, same dedication, and highly malleable to attaining new skills, -_- sigh)

[Daredevil]

Ignab glub bulbul.

Come again?

I can't believe this is a thread about VF4. Somehow, it's very fitting, though. :)

To get back on topic, something I thought about the Baji as displayed in the game, was that while the techniques looked in part like Baji (though with a rather "karate-esque" flavor), the game fails utterly to display how Baji looks when applied. The moves may look right, but the way they're linked and the range the fighting is done at is just wrong. Of course, I'm sure that could be said of a great many styles displayed in games.

[StickyHands]

"Ignab glub bulbul." is that the Finish way of saying something? lol. Anyway, Id also like to hear what u have to say about Baji art itself. Like what's the difference between Baji and Pigua, and how does Baji in comparison differ as an "internal" than Tai Chi? Isnt Baji external as well? Thanks.

[sweaty_dog]

When was the last time a baji guy and a tai chi or xing yi guy actually tried to hurt each other? Has it ever happened enough that there is any kind of statistical basis for saying one beats the other?

[Kristoffer]

""good for u, because as i recall it, they were 1995. too many kids were experimenting with their mommas. i was usually the one who laughed their ass off when i would hear about their life in the ghettos.""


What the hell r u talking about? :D You experimented with your momma 1995? In that case I don't wanna hear about it. And YOU laughed THEIR ass off? Ghettos?
Are you high? ;)

""People just dont get it that when you answer question, back it up with explanation""

It was you who made the ******* remark that "Baji is somewhat easily defeated against, let say a proficient Tai Chi or Xingyi practitioner". I answered that this is wrong and an explanation why too. I think you should re-read my posts.

ok being serious now. I think Yu Suzukis fighting games usually show somewhat realistic moves from different martial arts. Like in Shenmue you can do alot of famous Judo throws, Karate punches and later on you learn moves from Hsing-I and Pakua.


sweaty_dog
You CAN'T say that "one beats the other" because the style don't matter. It all depends on wich practioner trains harder etc..

[Daredevil]

Originally posted by StickyHands
Anyway, Id also like to hear what u have to say about Baji art itself. Like what's the difference between Baji and Pigua, and how does Baji in comparison differ as an "internal" than Tai Chi? Isnt Baji external as well? Thanks.

My experience in Pigua so far is somewhat limited. I've only done a few exercises and seen only what my teacher has shown in the few occasions he's talked at length about it.

The primary idea is to supplement one's fighting skills with an art that is rather complementary to Baji, but likes to fight at a different range. Baji is very short range, while Pigua is long-range. From what I've seen the Pigua approach to combat seems fairly good against multiple opponents (well, if anything really can be truly good vs. multiple opponents).

The expressions of power -- jings -- in Pigua and some Baji movements may not be very far from each other.

As for the question on internal or external, I suggest you find a few threads on that very subject in the archives. It's been beaten around. Personally, I don't care much for the words "internal" and "external". If you want a more thorough analysis, please define what exactly you mean by those terms and I can offer my views. The definitions vary greatly from one to the other.

if you have any specific questions, I'll be glad to answer.

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by Kristoffer
"

"Crap, good counter I have a ton of YO MAMA jokes but I won't go there..lol"

"good for u, because as i recall it, they were 1995. too many kids were experimenting with their mommas. i was usually the one who laughed their ass off when i would hear about their life in the ghettos."


"What the hell r u talking about? :D You experimented with your momma 1995? In that case I don't wanna hear about it. And YOU laughed THEIR ass off? Ghettos?
Are you high? ;)"


Phew! For a second there, I thought you were trying to be offensive. Ummm ran out of kintergarden jokes already? lol. Not only you cant explain, but it seems your mentally challenged and illiterate, can you read? Ok, I'll s l o w it down for ya. What I m e a n t was people like you who came up with momma jokes back in 1995 were experimenting with what I'd call Freudian Oediupus complex with their mommas. lol. So they were speaking from their experiences. Stay in school little fella! Peace. :D

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by Daredevil


My experience in Pigua so far is somewhat limited. I've only done a few exercises and seen only what my teacher has shown in the few occasions he's talked at length about it.

The primary idea is to supplement one's fighting skills with an art that is rather complementary to Baji, but likes to fight at a different range. Baji is very short range, while Pigua is long-range. From what I've seen the Pigua approach to combat seems fairly good against multiple opponents (well, if anything really can be truly good vs. multiple opponents).

The expressions of power -- jings -- in Pigua and some Baji movements may not be very far from each other.

As for the question on internal or external, I suggest you find a few threads on that very subject in the archives. It's been beaten around. Personally, I don't care much for the words "internal" and "external". If you want a more thorough analysis, please define what exactly you mean by those terms and I can offer my views. The definitions vary greatly from one to the other.

if you have any specific questions, I'll be glad to answer.


I mean like in Chen Tai Chi, do you generate starting from the leg or utilizing the whole body or do you generate power just from one part of the limb? Pigua long range and Baji, short range, what you mean by that, can you please elaborate? Shouldn't it have composite ranges in both arts? And if Pigua is good for multiple opponents, are you saying that's what Baji is inefficient in? I heard Baji is a lot like Xingyi. And to learn Xingyi, it's usually faster than Tai Chi or Bagua. So what's the feasible and usable skills for the street learning curve for Baji or Pigua, same as Xingyi? Thanks a lot.

[Daredevil]

Originally posted by StickyHands


I mean like in Chen Tai Chi, do you generate starting from the leg or utilizing the whole body or do you generate power just from one part of the limb?



Baji always uses whole body power (Baji has the Six Harmonies) and manifests inch power (kinda like WC's one-inch-punch), ie. you don't draw back your arm to generate velocity. An inch or even less is enough to accelerate the fist (for example) into full power. Developing these skills is what Baji basics are all about.


Originally posted by StickyHands


Pigua long range and Baji, short range, what you mean by that, can you please elaborate? Shouldn't it have composite ranges in both arts?


In fights, Baji tends to get in and stick very close. I don't mean close like in-fighting in Wing Chun, but REALLY close, sometimes in body to body contact.

On the contrary, Pigua techniques are best performed at a longer distance from the opponent.

Of course, there's techniques for various ranges in both arts, but this is speaking generally here.


Originally posted by StickyHands


And if Pigua is good for multiple opponents, are you saying that's what Baji is inefficient in?



I'm saying everything is inefficient in fighting multiple opponents. Baji no more than most, but how I've seen Pigua performed it might be a good way to deal with multiple attackers.

Good range, swinging attacks and footwork (and strikes) that are easily performed one way first, the other the second. You'd probably have to see it to appreciate it.


Originally posted by StickyHands


I heard Baji is a lot like Xingyi. And to learn Xingyi, it's usually faster than Tai Chi or Bagua. So what's the feasible and usable skills for the street learning curve for Baji or Pigua, same as Xingyi? Thanks a lot.



Baji is commonly said to be a lot like Xingyi and a lot like Chen style Taijiquan. There are definate similarities, but my experience with Xingyi is very brief and largely theoretical.

As for easy to learn .. I'd say, easy to train (simple basic exercises that'll teach you the core skills), but hard to learn (be prepared to work on these exercises every day for a couple of years before you'll see any real skill, otherwise I'd pretty much forget about it). Certainly more immediately easy to grasp and apply than Taiji, but the real skills -- whole body and inch power as mentioned -- don't open up quickly.

[StickyHands]

Thanks, this is great. And Baji is said to be hard style, and Pigua is said to be soft, how is this differentiation materialized into actual training?

[StickyHands]

What is silk-reeling in Baji, is it the same as in Chen Tai Chi? How is it done in Baji? Thank you.

[Kristoffer]

"Not only you cant explain, but it seems your mentally challenged and illiterate, can you read?"

What the **** is your problem? Can you tell me what it is that I didn't EXPLAIN to you?

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by Kristoffer


Then why is Baji external? And somewhat easily defeated against, let say a proficient Tai Chi or Xingyi practitioner, if they both have same years and ardour for training?""

"First of all, Baji is as far as I know internal. The rest is just stupid. Do you think that just because you train in a certain style you will be better at fighting? If a Baji practioner trains harder he will win over a muay thai practioner that trains like a bum. And vise versa"


Ah u just generalized without a reason for ur conviction. i think u need to travel to the internal section of this board. lol


"What kind of a name is StickyHands anyway? Don't u use soap?
:D :p"


See right there... When I said you generalized something, you only said it's internal and the rest is stupid. Internal, but how is it internal or how is the rest of the people who think it's not internal are stupid? And secondly, yes I do think if you train in certains styles, you would be better than the other style that might not be beneficial. i.e. i wouldnt recommend a boxer against a someone who does BJJ (lame example). When i made my claim about Tai Chi beating a Baji guy, it's because I did read it in some article, so that aroused my curiousity, hence I posted to find out if it's true, because I always thought Baji was external. But instead your making fun of screen name? lol. Btw, stickyhands are one of the training methods of Wing Chun.

[Kristoffer]

ok..

""When I said you generalized something, you only said it's internal and the rest is stupid. Internal, but how is it internal or how is the rest of the people who think it's not internal are stupid?""

I'm no expert at all when it comes to Internal arts but I have some experience in Pakua (wich I've heard is similar to Baji). These 'internal' arts are classified as this by it's own masters, I think probebly a name to explain the 'feeling' of these arts compared to 'external' arts. I think that in these so called external arts you often have a very common base line when it comes to training. ie- based on muscular strenght. (A generalization of corz). Since my main style is 'external' I have seen that people who advances and train for a long period develops 'internal' treats when in high level. I would guess that advanced internalists would say that it's not that different that it feels. I never said that this theory is stupid at all. What i meant was that I did not agree with your theory:

¨""And secondly, yes I do think if you train in certains styles, you would be better than the other style that might not be beneficial. i.e. i wouldnt recommend a boxer against a someone who does BJJ (lame example).""

I guess I could agree to some extent like if you train in Aikido you would have to train longer and harder than the average BJJ guy because it's harder to learn and use. But I think that it basically just comes down to personal skills. I have seen people who are natural fighters, who could fight boxers and win even though they have no training. If one of these guys would train in Aikido he would be very good in a short time compared to the average Muay Thai fighter (generalization again but I'm just drawing up examples).


"""When i made my claim about Tai Chi beating a Baji guy, it's because I did read it in some article, so that aroused my curiousity, hence I posted to find out if it's true, because I always thought Baji was external."""


I thought this thread was about Virtua Fighter 4? :D Anyway, I'm not the one u should ask aboyt external/internal but I just wanted to discuss that it doesn't really depend on style vs style.

"". But instead your making fun of screen name? lol. Btw, stickyhands are one of the training methods of Wing Chun.""


Well I meant it as a joke. And yeah I know what it is. I never insulted you with anything except jokes. (Hence the smilies) Calling someone: "mentally challenged and illiterate" is way over the line just coz I've made some jokes.

[StickyHands]

Ya sorry about that, but I was kidding as well, however, when you try to hint the Yo MAMA jokes, lol, it had double connotations, one direct, and two I interpreted as may be what I said about licking my fingers, u were referring Yo MAMA to that. lol. So it became a verbal bash. HEHE. No hard feelings.... :D

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by Vapour
For what I heard, xingyiquan may have originated from Bajiquan. Bajiquan originated from region around Wudang and there seems to be some connection to Chen style as well.


And actually this was a VF4 topic :rolleyes:, but it turned into a Baji topic because it interested me how can Baji originate from Xingyi, when one is external and the other internal, etc. And I had this aversion that internals are suppose to be superior? lol.

[Kristoffer]

cool.. It's easy to misunderstand one other in a forum.

BTW there's a character in the game Dead or Alive 2 (and 3) wich I think does baji/pakua.. Seen it?

[StickyHands]

No... cool! Wait, is that game more accurate than VF4? I wonder if the character does Pakua, does that mean he also does that evasion turning tactics of Pakua, like circle walk kinda thing? lol. Cool. Man, I wish I could find a Baji instructor where I live.

[Kristoffer]

Well I think to portray 'real' style like Baju is very hard to do in a game.. but you can see what it is atleast. There's not really any circle walking but alot of side stepping and moves where u move around the other guy and attacks from weird angles. There's a third game too but I havn't played it that much