Sifus with real fighting experience.

[Phil Redmond]

I was wondering how many WCK Sifus have had real fighting experience. I know a of few WCK Sifus who have never had a fight against a resisting opponent, but still are respected names in the WCK community. Can some of you name Sifus that have really used their art?
PR

[kj]

Good question, Phil.

Interestingly, some who meet the criteria aren't anxious to be known for it. Having had to use it, and using it successfully (not simulations) is not something all are universally proud of or wish to flaunt. Life is often far more complicated than our desires for simple "proof," and people have widely and obviously different values and mores regardless of their experiences and capabilities. If the world were only black and white everything would be so much simpler ...

Just my usual and idle pensiveness from the peanut gallery. Now back to your regularly scheduled program, and the perennial search for hard and conclusive data. :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Stevo]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
I was wondering how many WCK Sifus have had real fighting experience. I know a of few WCK Sifus who have never had a fight against a resisting opponent, but still are respected names in the WCK community. Can some of you name Sifus that have really used their art?
PR

They don't need to have fought to be respected. They just need to be great teachers.

[Phil Redmond]

Everyone has there own opinions but I wouldn't want to learn a fighting art from someone how hasn't fought. Can a non swimmer teach swimming? I can see learning history from someone who wasn't there, but not a physical art. In 'Nam we listened to the Marines who had been in fire fights. Not the inexperienced ones.
PR

[fa_jing]

Well, this reminds me of something my sifu said one night - somebody walked in off the street and was observing our class, afterwards he asked our sifu whether he ever had to use his MA in real life...Sifu Johnson thought for a minute..."Well, I could count the number of times I've had to use it on...let's see....4 hands"

:D

Incidentally, he's a Cook county Sheriff so he may have had some work-related usage--I'd bet outside of work a little, too.

BTW, few people seem to know him, even though he's been in WCK for 28 years. Guess it's because he never had his own school, and never engaged in organized self-promotion. He did, however, compete in a lot of NHB-style matches around 10 years ago.

Well he does JKD and general MA stuff too so some of the purists might complain, but believe me, his WCK is tight.

[t_niehoff]

Phil Redmond wrote:

I was wondering how many WCK Sifus have had real fighting experience. PR

Is there such a thing as "unreal" fighting experience? ;) The only way to measure and develop our skill is by genuine performance -- against skilled, resisting opponents. It doesn't need to be "on the street" and in fact, street encounters, i.e., assaults, give us only an unreliable indication of our skill (what does it take to beat an out-of-shape, overweight, half-drunk guy outside a bar? And how to you gauge your performance?). It is only by seeing if we can make what we do work against skilled, resisting opposition (the better their skill, the better you will be. If you can rountinely not get taken down by a collegiate-level wrestler trying to shoot, then the half-drunk surely won't be able to do it; if you can deal with a trained boxer trying to take your head off, the half-drunk guy's punch will be easy to deal with, etc.) that we develop ourselves. The Gracies didn't get so good just beating chumps on the street, but by meeting all-comers -- trained fighters of different arts -- with their open challenge. If we understand this, it won't matter to us whether others do it or not (though we'll be able to tell) -- if we want to be good, it is we that need to do it. TN

Let me add this -- our sifu doesn't teach us to fight (actually apply our WCK skills); our fighting teaches us to fight. If you want to learn how to wrestle, it is you that needs to get out on the mat; if you want to learn to box, it is you that needs to get into the ring; if you want to develop skill in WCK, it is you that needs to try applying your skills against skilled, resisting opponents. In my lineage we have a saying, "Let application be your sifu." TN

Terence

[KenWingJitsu]

Everyone has there own opinions but I wouldn't want to learn a fighting art from someone how hasn't fought. Can a non swimmer teach swimming? I can see learning history from someone who wasn't there, but not a physical art. In 'Nam we listened to the Marines who had been in fire fights. Not the inexperienced ones.
Phil Redmond is correct.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Phil,

Great question. But when I think of this topic, several things pop into my mind. The first and most ovious is what is the definition of real fighting experience? Do we take the roof top mathes, what is basically a school yard fight complete with rules, as real experience? I think the range of what some may considered real fighting experience may be to wide.

What about the fighting itself. If one wins several fights, does it mean he always will? Does it mean he has a deep level of knowledge? Many people fight well with no wing chun experience at all.

The next thing is what relevence does this imply? Does it mean that a teacher cannot teach if he himself wasn't a fighter? Or does it mean that one can teach if he is a fighter? Many boxing Coaches were not neccesarily good boxers. And I doubt many would be flocking to Tyson as a training coach. I think fightin experience does lend some credibility, but not neccesarily.

Then, what about people who are fighters but learned from those that were not. I don't recall Yip Man with a large amount of bouts under his belt. I think there are many fighters that come from a teacher that has not fought.

Just some questions in my mind.
Tom
________
Vaporizer volcano (http://volcanovaporizer.net/)

[Phil Redmond]

tparkerfo wrote:
".....What about the fighting itself. If one wins several fights, does it mean he always will? Does it mean he has a deep level of knowledge? Many people fight well with no wing chun experience at all." TP

Man you said a mouthful. I totally agree.

"The next thing is what relevence does this imply? Does it mean that a teacher cannot teach if he himself wasn't a fighter? Or does it mean that one can teach if he is a fighter? Many boxing Coaches were not neccesarily good boxers. And I doubt many would be flocking to Tyson as a training coach. I think fightin experience does lend some credibility, but not neccesarily."TP

Got me there. I can't argue with that.

KenWingJitsu & tparkerfo. Both you guys have fought from what I've read. I Really respect that. Did you guys learn from fighters or non fighters?
PR

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Real fighting is comprised of many variables as already stated. It is not always the most highly skilled fighter who wins. The mental aspect cannot be overlooked or ignored. In some cases a weaker “technically skilled” fighter can and will defeat a more “proficient” higher skilled fighter due to their mental condition. I guess the point I am trying to make is that the “best” fighters do not always make the “best” teachers. Of course, for an art like Wing Chun one should have some proficiency in applying the art and making it work against others. However, IMHO it is more important to be able to explain and pass on knowledge to others in a way, which they can understand then it is sometimes to be able to “fight”. As to how many Sifu have had actual encounters this is an area, which some will not admit to and others will embellish to their own benefit. There is a big difference between a fight and encounter where one was the target of a beating or robbery and where one was the target of someone actually attempting to do serious bodily injury or death. There is also a difference between someone who travels in areas more prone to attacks like nightclubs etc. and someone walking to their car. I think that many who train in Wing Chun would be just as happy to never have to use their art yet have the skill to apply it if and when needed. The problem is in knowing or determining whether that skill is truly there or a fantasy. If one has never been in a “real” fight then one doesn’t know how he or she will react if put to the test. Despite the best of intentions, competitive types of encounters may not adequately prepare one for the brutality of “real combat”. The best one can hope for is to prepare as best they can, as close to a “real” fight as possible and hope for the best. There are examples of soldiers who enter combat with the same training and yet some find themselves unable to engage the enemy. Point is until you are in it knee deep you really do not know how you will react. Also, consider the implications of having to use your art in its truly effective form. If one has ever had to injure another person then there is an affect, which this has on him or her. Some may be excellent fighters and after applying their skills turn away from ever applying such skill again.

Is it important for a Sifu to be able to demonstrate their skill in a convincing manner? YES
Is it important for a Sifu to have been in “real” fights? I am not sure. Phil certainly raises a very good point about learning to swim from a non-swimmer. I guess a lot will come down to how likely you expect to be in such “real” fights. I would rather learn how to avoid confrontation yet prepare to act decisively should the need arise. I would view training under a Sifu who has applied his or her skills in the reality of the street to be an asset but not necessarily a necessity. However, if I lived in an area where I anticipated being attacked with some frequency I would most likely seek out someone who had experience with such situations. I think that they would still stress avoidance though :)
Will those making claims of “real” fights embellish things to their own benefit? I believe so and thus many such claims become a “straw man” type of argument.

I really did not answer this question but I hope I raised some points worth thinking about. I would hate to see some of the more junior members discard knowledge if the Sifu did not have “real” fighting experience.

Peace,

Dave

BTW: Just to clarify something: to me PERSONALY fighting and application are integral parts of MY Wing Chun. I just do not feel the need to impose that view on everyone else nor measure their Wing Chun by ability to fight.

[yuanfen]

Phil- the simple answer is yes.
But I am unsure what sense of reality you will get from list discussions on this subject.

[hunt1]

Phil I have only been invloved in what I condifer a fight once since I learned WC. I had many many fights when I was young and dumb. In fact enough to know how dangerous a street fight truly is. Most here clearly don not understand how dangerous a real fight can be. Best left to the under 25 crowd. With that said I think that a Sifu does not have to have fighting exp to tach but it helps. Being a fighter will not make one a good teacher. the key is finding a teacher that has fighting exp and has taken the time to think about fights. His and others.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Phil,

I am not sure if I should be proud or ashamed of my fighting experience. LOL. To be honest, I have not had to fight in the last 6 years, the amount of time I have been involved with wing chun. So, the next part of my questions would be, what would an experience fighter have when learning wing chun? If he has not fought with wing chun, but he has prior to learning? Would that be of interest?

To be honest, yet again, I have been in a few scuffles, but never in any fight that was serious. I beleive I have had good luck for three reasons. One is that I used to hang out with some pretty tough guys, so that didn't require much on my part. Second, when in a situation, I used my head very quickly and defused the situation one way or another. The last, is I have since removed myself from most situations were a fight is likely. However, I have been in several close calls lately and the funny thing is I wondered how I would do. LOL. I thought at the time, "hey, I can report this back to the wing chun lists" LOL.

So Phil, you can have some of that respect back.

Tom
________
Glass vaporizer bowl (http://vaporizerinfo.com/)

[tparkerkfo]

Oh, to answer your second question, I don't know how many fights my wing chun teachers have been involved in. I am not sure that is relavent only because lets say they have been in 1000 fights. That doesn't mean much in the way of my skills.

My lineage comes through Leung Sheung via Ken Chung directly and indirectly through a student of Eddie Chong. I don't know my teachers, Eddie's or Ken's experience. I have heard that Leung Sheung WAS experienced in fighting though I do not know any details. I would suggest asking William Cheung sifu about Leung Sheung's background. Heck, I would be interested in anything you hear.

Tom
________
Vaporizer.Com (http://vaporizers.net)

[Stevo]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Everyone has there own opinions but I wouldn't want to learn a fighting art from someone how hasn't fought. Can a non swimmer teach swimming? I can see learning history from someone who wasn't there, but not a physical art. In 'Nam we listened to the Marines who had been in fire fights. Not the inexperienced ones.
PR

I agree with most of what Terence, Tparkerfo, Hunt1 and Sihing73 said. Why would a sifu having a fight magically convert their Wing Chun into something to be respected, and vice-versa? If their opponent was untrained or drunk, what would it mean? A student with 12 months' experience should be able to defeat an untrained or drunk opponent. Also, many fights are won without using Wing Chun, so why would a Sifu who has fought necessarily have good Wing Chun? What Hunt1 said about a Sifu's fighting experience is correct, and I wouldn't consider anyone who hadn't tested their techniques under pressure and put lots of thought into fighting applications to be a great teacher in the first place, but that doesn't necessarily mean a fight.

[sleestack]

I think a sifu with fighting experience can guide the student a little better about the realities of using wing chun in a street situation. But I also agree with terence. It's not necessary for the sifu to have actual street fighting experience to produce good students. (Terence did a good job of explaining how, no need to repeat.) I would imagine there's oodles of sifu's who haven't fought on the street. Doesn't matter. I'ts down to the individual.

[tparkerkfo]

Sleestack,

LOL. That is a great handle. LOL. I used to quiz people about old TV shows and that was one of my questions. LOL. And a Zep fan to boot.

ANy way, Yes I think your correct. I think beeing in a fight can help an individual, but can that be passed on and can an individual really prepare for the situation? A couple examples. One, my HUng Gar teacher is VERY experienced. He has lived in the "hood" and fought many times on the streets. He has faught in tournys when there were far fewer rules. He was a bouncer for a while. Lots of background and a tuff guy. However, I would put dollars to donughts that my wing chun teacher would tear him apart as well as several of my sihings. The level of skill is just worlds apart.

Next, how do you get some one to get accustomed to a real experience? Police, military soldiers, firefighters, etc all have this delima. They get rookies and they have to teach them how to act under pressure. Think about the soldiers in Iraq today. Who taught them? A few that were in the Gulf war 12 years ago. And who taught them? TMost of those in charge of training were never in a battle, I know cause I was being trained durring the gulf war. Soldiers are given scenarios and they have to act under similated conditions. They did pretty good. What about Rookie police officers? At some point they are on their own.

Having fighting experience can lend credence to your words, but I don't think it makes ones wing chun better, nor do I think it makes it easier to transmit. Most of our wing chun comes from Yip Man. What was his fighting record/experience?

Tom
________
The cigar boss (http://thecigarboss.com/)

[kj]

Originally posted by Stevo
What Hunt1 said about a Sifu's fighting experience is correct, and I wouldn't consider anyone who hadn't tested their techniques under pressure and put lots of thought into fighting applications to be a great teacher in the first place, but that doesn't necessarily mean a fight.

Ditto. And that is the razor's edge of perennial debate and seemingly unyielding perspectives.

There cannot even be universal and unequivocal agreement on the criteria that qualifies something as a "fight." If not definitive, then it fails to serve as rigorous criteria for who is and isn't qualified to teach. To oversimplify someone's qualifications also disregards the many other relevant criteria we may examine in choosing those to learn from.

One of the many criteria I would look for in a teacher is someone who has tested their skills under pressure, over time, and in a wide range of circumstances, while at the same time intelligent and ethical enough to avoid unnecessary "fights."

At this juncture, the only reason I continue to offer such insufferable opinions is in case there remains a remote and kindred soul somewhere out there who understands what "balance" means. Some days I swear all I can hear is the din of Tim Allen-ish grunting and howling noises. Enough, lest I say what I really think, LOL.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[azwingchun]

Very interesting topic, as well as great discussions here.

I remember my Sifu telling me that the more Wing Chun I learn the less I will have to fight. This didn't really make sense to me at the time, since I was pretty c@cky at the time. At that time I was learning Wing Chun to be a better fighter or to add to my arsenal.

Another thing he told me later on in my training was, there are great teachers who can't fight, and great fighters who can't teach. The ultimate goal is to be a great fighter who can teach.

tparkerkfo


Having fighting experience can lend credence to your words, but I don't think it makes ones wing chun better, nor do I think it makes it easier to transmit.

Though I will agree 100%, this reminds me of a guy I work with. He can tell you about anything medically, whether it is about medications and there abilities or diseases and their affects on the human body, hell, he can tell you step by step surgical procedures. The guy is incredibly book smart and knows his stuff. But, it doesn't mean I would let him operate on me. But, the guy could definitely teach me a thing or two. ;)

[fa_jing]

I agree with most of the posters here - it's not really the fact that my Sifu is a Sheriff in a big city, was a marine, grew up fighting all of the time in the projects, etc. that cause me to think he's a good teacher or respect his fighting ability. It's the fact that I learned alot from him in every class, that I felt his power and ability during drills, that he puts on the gloves and sparred with me many times and could knock me silly at the drop of a hat, if he chose to, but did not, the fact that when he hits the heavy bag his power is astonishing, and actually, that he has sport fighting experience. And he will tell you, he lost some fights while he was coming up. If he was a teacher that focused on self defense, then yes, I would say his "street" credentials would be paramount, but in fact, his focus is on general fighting and sport fighting, so the other factors are what make him a great teacher IMO.

[fa_jing]

oh, and in agreement with AZWC, my sifu has said that usually in an altercation, the kind where a disagreement escalates as opposed to an attack out of the blue, if the other person finds out you know something about fighting, they usually will not want to fight.

[Phil Redmond]

"oh, and in agreement with AZWC, my sifu has said that usually in an altercation, the kind where a disagreement escalates as opposed to an attack out of the blue, if the other person finds out you know something about fighting, they usually will not want to fight."

Or they pop their trunk.

[azwingchun]

Actually, what I took from my Sifu's statement was that the more kung fu I learned, the more aware of my surroundings I would be and the more understanding on how to get myself out of a situation, hopefully before it happened.

Not to mention, the mental aspect of keeping a cool head when confronted in this type of situation as well as plain confidence. When I look back at all the fights I have been in, I can honestly (though not proud) say that I could have walked away from many of them. But I was too arrogant and/or c@cky at the time. ;)

Fa_jing

As far as letting the other person know that I know something, this is usually the opposite of what I do. I am not the biggest guy on the block. So by presenting my weapons/tools (in my experience) doesn't seem to scare many people. In fact I have found that if or when I have done this, it escalated the situation. ;)

[fa_jing]

OK, that's what my sifu said and he left it at that, however I think that there's another way to interpret that then what you guys are saying. That being, not that you stick out your hands in the man sao/wu sao position (my sifu would be more likely to fight with closed fist anyway), nor do you scream "I AM A NINJA, FEAR ME!!!" Rather, as the pushing/whatever begins, just by virtue of your initial reactions, the way you stare at them, move, or deflect/control their movements, they will know something's up pretty fast and back off before things get hot and heavy. See my sifu's also speaking from the perspective that he probably is not going to beat down someone right away just for trying to start something. That's his choice, others may have that survival instinct kick in and break the other guy right away. Also he's a police officer, and can't respond over and above the level of threat. Again, this only applies to certain scenarios, probably to the personal experience of my sifu, not against a real attack. The kind of scenario that starts small and escalates, where the other guy may be testing him or tenatively entering into the altercation, or "Sizing you up." My sifu with his police work, usually knows what kind of person he is dealing with. Like I said before, this isn't a true self-defense situation, rather, it is a situation that alot of us may get into that begins with an exchange of words.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Phil:

As regards your question about which sifu's have had real fighting experience - call my lawyer - he prefers to answer those kinds of questions for me.....


Later,

Victor

[Sam]

Grand Master Henry Leung has met every challenge victoriously. Leung Sifu has fought some of the toughest street thugs as well as highly skilled martial artists. James Cama Sifu was there and saw many encounters. Cama Sifu has continued the tradition and has touched hands many times. James Cama and his students are known for their fighting prowess as well as their traditional transmition of the art of Wing Chun.http://www.geocities.com/wingchunbuddhahand/index.html

[Spectre]

I think that every student at one point in their journey has wondered if what they are learning is truly effective. The real question should be, "Am I truly effective" instead of, "Is what I am learning truly effective".

Whether a sifu has had a successful history of applying their skills or not is only relative to who is relaying the history. Can you truly believe the martial history without bearing witness? How many sifus would actually stand up and say "I have lost a ton of fights but my WC is still effective"?

Like the school teacher who tries to teach their students to read and write, a sifu can only hope that the student practices enough to become proficient. The determination and drive to become better if not the best lies solely with the student.

Bottome line: If a sifu does have a successful history of using their WC skills against others, that does not mean that a student with inherently become a good fighter.

Just my chump change! :)

Kevin

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
"oh, and in agreement with AZWC, my sifu has said that usually in an altercation, the kind where a disagreement escalates as opposed to an attack out of the blue, if the other person finds out you know something about fighting, they usually will not want to fight."

Or they pop their trunk.

HAHAHA ...... Phil you are from tha hood !!!!!!!!! :D

-David

[sticky fingers]

Originally posted by Spectre

Like the school teacher who tries to teach their students to read and write, a sifu can only hope that the student practices enough to become proficient
Kevin

Reminds me of my economics teacher back in high school. He was explaining to us about the stockmarket- when to buy and sell, what stocks are good at the moment, what are bad stocks etc. The smart*** of the class raises his hand and asked 'so how come you're still a teacher and not a millionaire?'

we got a lot of homework that night...

[KenWingJitsu]

KenWingJitsu & tparkerfo. Both you guys have fought from what I've read. I Really respect that. Did you guys learn from fighters or non fighters?
Both. To explain, a lot of the people I "practice on" or practice with< are not fighters....but I test what I know against fighters and most of who I learned form are people who are known fighters, or have fought at some point in time. I much prefer to learn form somone who has been in the fire so to speak. Theories are great, but you never know till they're put to the test.

[PaulH]

Hey KWJ,

Did you ever try to join one of Ernie's Sunday sessions in Pasadena? They have professional boxers, thai boxers, wrestlers, JKD, etc... Great place to get some practical experience.

Regards,