Sifus with real experience vs Bears, Gorillas or Dogs

[marcelino31]

Most of the WC training I have seen deals
only with human opponents.

I have a pit bull and find it very hard to bridge the gap towards it whether I'm in a neutral stance, front stance, dragging or stepping with my feet -- as soon as I'm close enough to strike, his mouth is on my arm!

When I do chi sao with my pit a downward
pushing fook sao is used to control his head movements -- this works provided I don't apply any forward force as otherwise I risk being bitten (This is contrary to WC principles,
but seems to work for me). Also the fook sao
is not held horizontal but pointing downwards
toward my opposite foot -- this seems to control his head better.

I have found that holding my guard lower
seems more effective than holding it higher
when doing drills with my dog -- in this way I am better able to cover my central area.

What have your experiences been like when facing vicious animals and how to use wing chun to deal with them?

In the last section of SLT, i have learnt using
a flick to the eye followed by stepping back
and arm sweeps to break a hold. Would this
work against fangs sunken into your arm?

Would a bong sao or bil sao work against a Gorilla's or Grizzley's round house punch or
is it better to use a tan sao to absorb and redirect the energy to the ground followed by poke to the eye?

Is there secret footwork or techniques that can deal with this?

[yuanfen]

marcellino31-
you must be joking.<g>

Still- good wing chun trains YOU- and it can come in handy in a
human to human or human to animal situation as well.

I believe in being kind to animals... even more so than to humans!

With pit bulls- the problem is often the owner who has helped
develop the mean-ness of the dog.((One of my students has a sweet pit and a dog of mine has hada neutered pit for a friend))

Once a pit attacked a dog of mine for no particular reason-the two dogs had a locked in bite hold on each other. The owner
was standing with a smirk and obviously proud of his pit.
I looked straight at him and "firmly" said that if he did not immediately retreive his pit- that he would be in deep "trouble" with me.
he immediately removed his pit and took off. each situation is different.

Keeping cool- is the common denominator in remedies- not a single
technique.

[sleestack]

marcelino- your post cracks me up :D Thank you! That s*** was funny.

[yuanfen]

now gorillas and bears- I would run to Detroit. They atleast know how to handle the bears in Chicago- and lots of bananas for the gorillas and bjj.

Marcellino's post was funny- classic --what if...

[kj]

Brilliant. :D
- kj

[marcelino31]

Well in today's world anything is possible.
After talking to a primatologist, I found out that a chimpanzee (which is all solid muscle) has 5 times the strength of a normal man.

The point I am trying to make is what kind of fighting strategy could you use to defend yourself against an animal, that is intent on assaulting you.

The animals I mentioned have claws and teeth, plus they have a lower center of gravity, super fast reflexes, and an in-bred instinct to fight. Some of these animals (attack dogs) have been trained to go straight for your cajones.

What kind of defense techniques can you use to defend yourself.

I think everyone at one point or another has had to deal with a feisty dog. Just the other day I saw a big black dog, foaming at the mouth, on the loose that looked like a menace. ((Glad i was in my vehicle and not face to face with it in the bush))

I don't think doing sensitivity training (Chi-sao) would prepare you for dealing with such an encounter.

Would a heart piercing kick or inch punch do the job?

[old jong]

I think that Yuanfen could be considered as the old "silverback" of the forum!...Don't you think?...;) :D

[marcelino31]

No such job!...LOL....

[Grendel]

Originally posted by marcelino31
Most of the WC training I have seen deals
only with human opponents.

I have a pit bull and find it very hard to bridge the gap towards it whether I'm in a neutral stance, front stance, dragging or stepping with my feet -- as soon as I'm close enough to strike, his mouth is on my arm!

When I do chi sao with my pit a downward
pushing fook sao is used to control his head movements -- this works provided I don't apply any forward force as otherwise I risk being bitten (This is contrary to WC principles,
but seems to work for me). Also the fook sao
is not held horizontal but pointing downwards
toward my opposite foot -- this seems to control his head better.

I have found that holding my guard lower
seems more effective than holding it higher
when doing drills with my dog -- in this way I am better able to cover my central area.

What have your experiences been like when facing vicious animals and how to use wing chun to deal with them?

In the last section of SLT, i have learnt using
a flick to the eye followed by stepping back
and arm sweeps to break a hold. Would this
work against fangs sunken into your arm?

Would a bong sao or bil sao work against a Gorilla's or Grizzley's round house punch or
is it better to use a tan sao to absorb and redirect the energy to the ground followed by poke to the eye?

Is there secret footwork or techniques that can deal with this?
As a direct descendent of Neanderthals, I can claim to have inherited the mantle of Um Bag Ugga, which means "king of the mammoths." What I usually do is jump on an animal's back and stab it with my obsidian knife while holding on to the animal's long, wholly fur. This works unless the animal dislodges you against a tree or a cave wall.

My grandfather told me an alternative strategy is when you're attacked by a dinosaur, attract the attention of a second dinosaur and escape while they fight to the death.

Regards,

[Wingman]

Originally posted by marcelino31
...The point I am trying to make is what kind of fighting strategy could you use to defend yourself against an animal, that is intent on assaulting you.

The animals I mentioned have claws and teeth, plus they have a lower center of gravity, super fast reflexes, and an in-bred instinct to fight. Some of these animals (attack dogs) have been trained to go straight for your cajones....


When man's ancestors first came down from the trees, they were very puny. They didn't have sharp claws and teeth like the lions, tigers and other predators. They can't run fast like horses. They didn't have horns like the buffalo or tusk like an elephant. Their strength is inferior to other animals of comparable size and weight.

But it is this inferiority that enabled man to dominate the other animals. He learned to stand up on two legs. This enabled him to see ****her. Standing up also freed his 2 hands from the task of locomotion. This enabled him to fashion tools and weapons using his 2 hands. His brain became more developed than any other animal. In summary, man achieved his superiority using his brains and not his brawns.

So if I were attacked by an animal, I would use my superior intellect to overcome the attacker. Maybe I'll find a weapon to defend myself. Maybe I'll go indoors so that the animal cannot attack me. There are lots of possibilities.

Lastly, do you know what is the most dangerous animal in the jungle? It is NOT the tiger or the lion. The most dangerous animal is MAN!

[sticky fingers]

practice this

marcelino31 - you have to train your YGKGM (Yee Gee Kim Gau Ma) stance . It is a modified version of YGKYM which is more applicable to dogs.

In ancient China where the dogs were too small and weak, they used goats instead , hence the term Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma. (Pinching the goat's head stance).


To train the YGKGM stand in the basic YGKYM but with your feet slightly wider and your body sunk lower. Now call your dog over and pinch his head between your knees. As you get more advanced , you can slip his favourite doggy treat into your jocks and your stance should stop him from tearing off your gonads.

[kj]

I'm laughing so hard, my sides hurt.
- kj

[yuanfen]

For gorrillas- dim mak them in an armpit. And transfer short power.They love that and you have won!!

[marcelino31]

stickyfingers says:
you have to train your YGKGM (Yee Gee Kim Gau Ma) stance .

-- Is this a secret stance taught to you by Leung Bik? Or did
you peek through a hole in a wall and spy him pinching something between his legs and mistook it for a dog, when in reality it was a small hairy goat?

In ancient China where the dogs were too small and weak, they used goats instead , hence the term Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma. (Pinching the goat's head stance).

-- This is a misconception, ancient China had large dogs and practicing the stance pinching goat heads was a safer option than with dogs, don't you think?

To train the YGKGM stand in the basic YGKYM but with your feet slightly wider and your body sunk lower. Now call your dog over and pinch his head between your knees. As you get more advanced, you can slip his favourite doggy treat into your jocks and your stance should stop him from tearing off your gonads.

-- I prefer the classic pigeon toed stance with the feet turned
inward and with a fist distance between the knees (similar to the one trained in Yuen Kay Shan WC) This works against any animal.
And in my opinion offers better protection to your cajones than your legs wide apart with feet parallel as used in some other WC lineages.

[yuanfen]

Triangle choke em all I say. Man, all fights go to the ground!

[old jong]

The best thing against a gorilla...Put your elbows on the ground and lift your buttom a little.Chances are he will mellow down. :eek:

[old jong]

Mellow down or mellow up?...What is the proper anglo-saxon expression for this idea?...:confused:

[marcelino31]

Originally posted by old jong
The best thing against a gorilla...Put your elbows on the ground and lift your buttom a little.Chances are he will mellow down. :eek:

LOL thats really funny, old jong... Have you ever done such a thing -- seems more like a mating posture than self defense
-- glad it works for you!

DO you like playing dead around a bear in this manner as well?

Well the consensus appears to be that a martial art such as WC is not effective for dealing with non-human animals...

[old jong]

Originally posted by marcelino31


LOL thats really funny, old jong... Have you ever done such a thing -- seems more like a mating posture than self defense
-- glad it works for you!



Is'nt this a little extrapolating?...

[sticky fingers]

Originally posted by marcelino31


Well the consensus appears to be that a martial art such as WC is not effective for dealing with non-human animals...

No No!! You must train the Yee Gee Kim Gau Ma (Pinching the Dog's head stance) to be effective!

-- This is a misconception, ancient China had large dogs and practicing the stance pinching goat heads was a safer option than with dogs, don't you think?

Only the wealthy nobility could afford to keep large dogs. The poor monks and nuns could never afford the meat to feed them. Goats however, fed on plants which were plentiful.

-- I prefer the classic pigeon toed stance with the feet turned
inward and with a fist distance between the knees (similar to the one trained in Yuen Kay Shan WC) This works against any animal

I believe YGKYM is the same stance as the one you're describing. YGKGM is slightly modified for the height difference with dogs. Try it for yourself with your dog and tell us how it goes.

[yuanfen]

Now bears are different. Teddy Roosevelt shot many of them-
despite corntributing to the imagery of a teddy bear as a sign of affection and love.

As a martial artist and specially the mma ones have to first decide what kind of bear they are facing- and practice lots of lat sao under pressure. Is the bear- a brown bear, sun bear, black bear,
Indian bhallook bear, an alaskan grizzly or a polar bear.. could make a difference what kind of hug you are going to use, how much of a lock on your grip you are going to use and whether you are going to use Karelin's favorite throw- bridge down on the ground and throw over the shoulder.
If it doesnt work you can always go back to Teddy's solution.
He practiced some judo you know-- had Japanese judokas come to the White House. But they wouldnt teach him the secrets of the
polar or the grizzly bear hugs- so he developed his theory of the different stages of combat and gun fu and provided the inspiration for the song "Wont you be my Teddy bear?".

[WTJune]

hmm.. let see you can ask the guys from MTv Jacka$$, not Sifus but they have Fighting experience - Johnny Knoxville wrestled with a bear and was bitten by a baby alligator, Steve O was bitten by a dog - and there was that guy with the bunny costume who was jumped by a big rottweiler.....

[marcelino31]

here is defense vs bear:

www.windycitywingchun.com/movies/salmon.asf



here is TWC entry technique:
www.windycitywingchun.com/movies/Catfight.mpg