Punching article.

[rogue]

Over at fighting arts. (http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=346)

[guohuen]

Good article. He says as he nurses the broken knuckle on the little finger of his right hand.;)

[ShaolinTiger00]

An Excerp from “Championship Fighting” written by Jack Dempsey in 1950.

"Unfortunately, however, the hand-bone behind the little knuckle is the most fragile of the five back-bones. It can be broken the most easily. YOU MUST NOT ATTEMPT TO LAND FIRST WITH THE LITTLE KNUCKLE. Instead you must TRY TO LAND FIRST WITH THE KNUCKLE NEXT TO YOUR PINKY (the ring finger). We'll call that the 2nd knuckle. Aiming with the 2nd knuckle usually brings about a THREE-KNUCKLE landing. Those THREE-KNUCKLES ARE: MIDDLE, SECOND (RING) AND PINKY. If you aim with the 2nd knuckle, those three knuckles usually will land together because the average fist slopes slightly from the middle knuckle to the pinky. Such a three-knuckle landing not only prevents the hand-bone behind any one knuckle from bearing all the punch shock, but it also permits punching ALMOST EXACTLY ALONG THE POWER LINE. Rarely will one of those knuckles make a solo landing. But if you aim with the little knuckle, you risk a dangerous solo landing on forehead of blocking elbow.

"Always aim with the second knuckle - the one next to your pinky (the ring finger) - and let the other knuckles take care of themselves. They'll take care of themselves all right; for the shape of the fist makes it impossible for them to do otherwise. Clench your right fist and inspect its knuckles. You thumb knuckle is "out of the way" - completely separated from the four knuckles on the striking edge of your fist. More than that, your thumb knuckle is ****hest away from your pinky knuckle - ****hest away from the end of the power line. Nature took care of that. Never double cross nature and by trying to hit with that thumb knuckle, under and circumstance. It breaks easily. Keep it out of the way."

"The knuckle of your "index finger" (the one next to the thumb) is fairly prominent, but not as prominent as the knuckle of your middle finger. In some face punches and most body blows, that "index knuckle" will land with the other three, for a four-knuckle landing. That's okay. let the index knuckle come along for the ride. Under no circumstances, however, try to land first with that index knuckle. If you do, you'll not only break your power line, but you may break your wrist."

"Beware likewise of trying to land first with the prominent middle knuckle - the source of most hand injuries. Such aiming will slant your hand off the power line and, at the same time, endanger the middle knuckle and its hand bone. When that middle knuckle makes a solo landing, its prominence prevents the other knuckles from helping to absorb some of the punch shock. That shock or pressure is terrific in any full-fledged punch, particularly when you nail an opponent with a head blow "just as he is stepping into you." In that split-second, your fist must withstand the shock pressure of an explosive collision between two hurtling body-weights"

"Let me repeat: If your punch is landed correctly, in power-line fashion, three knuckles - pinky, second (ring) and middle - will share the pressure and distribute it over the three hand-bones behind the knuckles. That lessens the chance of bruising or crushing any one knuckle, or fracturing any one hand-bone. Most professional and amateur boxers suffer frm hand injuries during their careers even though their fist are protected by bandages, tapes and gloves, because they don't make a fist properly. As I pointed out earlier, the hands have no such protection in a fist-fight. You must land correctly, not only for power-line explosiveness, but for hand protection.

Who are you going to believe? A Physician's assistant, who studies traditional martial arts, or a man who made his living by hitting other people with his fists (64-6-9 49KO's.)

I'll take the later.

and a parting gripe. He says that the pinky finger is lined up at an oblique angle to the wrist. - yes but only because you've twisted your wrist down to align the index and ring fingers unnaturally.

*edit*

This just makes me laugh!

"But, since boxers have relied on an artificial means of keeping the wrist aligned, they have not learned how to do so themselves. So out of the ring they can easily damage their hands because they are not properly aligned. "

No striking practicioner has stronger wrists than a boxer. Boxers repeatedly hit resistance objects day in day out and proper alignment means everything to them.

what a ****ing idiot.
"

[fa_jing]

It appears that Jack was a Wing Chun student...:)

and I agree that you shouldn't distort the plane of the top of you hand near the pinky by making too clenched of a fist. All the knuckles should line up.

[IronFist]

So if that's Jack Dempsey, he's talking about a horizontal fist for boxing, right? Would the rules be different for a vertical Wing Chun fist?

IronFist

[CrippledAvenger]

Nope. Jack Dempsey advocated the vertical fist for many boxing punches, as did several other bare knuckle boxers.

If you get a chance, you should really check out a copy of Dempsey's book. Quite an eye opener.

[Black Jack]

Dempsey was THEY man. Last of the old school. He even taught commando fighting techniques to the Coast Guard in WW2 along with h2h combat instructor and ex-sport grappler/jujitsu man Bernard Cosneck.

Old style pugilism was a much different animal than the modern sport boxing of today.

[Shaolin-Do]

In all honesty, from personal experience (no I could care less if anyone reading this values my opinion) :p hitting with the ring finger as my aiming point makes my wrist hurt like hell, but lining it up between ring and middle tends to take the shock better.
Between index and middle? thats just stupid.
Then again tho, I have a broken wrist.
Who knows, Ill have to re-try when I get my wrist fixed.

[ShaolinTiger00]

These principles of proper alingment work for both the vertical fist and the horizontal fist.

I use the vertical fist on all of my hooks. The uppercut is also considered a vertical fist as the wrist does not turn over as it is thrown.

"Old style pugilism was a much different animal than the modern sport boxing of today."

I certainly agree with this statement and in my opinion it is for the better and worse. The art of defense is becomming lost as a mantra of offense is the best defense is chanted. (punching = more scoring) Great boxers like Willie Pep who were defensive masters, would not go over with today's judges or crowds.

I don't want to take this topic too far off the topic.


but.

Black Jack, I have been searching for info on Bernard Cosneck, who was a founder of "american combat judo". Do you know where I can find more info?

[Black Jack]

ShaolinTiger,

Whats up. First I would find the book American Combat Judo by Cosneck, it was published by Sentinel Book Publishers, in 1959.

GREAT BOOK. Cosnecks American Combat Judo was an electic mix of western wrestling, boxing, jujitsu and dirty fighting which was taught to American servicemen during WW2.

I know that Cosneck was a collegiate wrestling champ, he was the Winner of the Big Ten wrestling championships in 1932 and 1934, his methods showcase his heavy wrestling background, he graduated in 1934 with a degree in Physical Education from the University of Illinois and was one of six men tutored in JuJitsu by a number of the old school japenese teachers of the time, I believe called the Six Degree Black Belt Japenese specialists, using his degree he actually became a physical education teacher, when he was not helping out the Manassa Mauler teach close combat to the coast guards in Manhattan Beach, New York or doing training in some other location I would wager.

You can also see some pics of him in the United Coast Guard book How to Fight Tough by Lt. Jack Dempsey.

Hope this helped at all.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Black Jack,

Thank you sir! I've been doing my own personal researching on many of our "gutterfighting" founders.

If I could make a comment about something,
and was one of six men tutored in JuJitsu

By this time in the century (1934) but surely pre-WWII, Jujutsu was for all intents and purposes dead. Virtually every jujutsu ryu merged with the Kodokan judo school by 1905. Certainly pre-war judo was much more aligned with its parent schools and still used striking and many other techniques removed after the American occupation of Japan, but it was still judo. However the use of the terminology was often mislabeled and many still called it jujutsu.

just wanted to offer that piece of info. It was very common in the days after the war for westerners who were now gaining access to these systems to mislabel them. jujutsu seemed to be a catch-all word for them.

william_easlick@hotmail.com if you'd ever like to share more info.

[Black Jack]

Thanks for the info and anything for a fellow gutterfighter:D

Judo/Jujitsu like you mentioned at that time was considered one and the same. Judo looked a bit different than it did today. Atemi was stressed. Americans gave it names like combat judo, dirty judo, poke and kick judo, marine judo, combato (to combat judo), it was all rough and tumble, great stuff!

My favorite word for the edge of hand blow at that time is the judo slash.

I will send you a e-mail tonight or tommorrow. Its cool to find people interested in what our forefathers did and their fighting methods.