circles

[sel]

does everyone agree that wing chun uses circular theory?
what is your understanding of circular theory?

[[Censored]]

My Wing Chun doesn't use theories. It uses facts.

Cranes don't move in straight lines. Neither do snakes. Neither do rays of light.

So, even if I could move in a straight line..why should I?

[foolinthedeck]

i think it was einstein who said that with a powerful enough telescope you could see the back of your own head. maybe with a powerful enough punch you could punch yourself in the back of the head...

what do you mean by circles?
what do you mean by straight line?

is huen sau an example of circular theory?

[anerlich]

sel,

this could be a good topic, but "circular theory" is way too nebulous and undefined to discuss.

Explain what you understand "circular theory" to be, you might get some sensible answers.

[wingchunalex]

my wing chun uses rotational circles. rotating around the centerline during shifting. some small arm circleing, usually virtical- inside and outside whip punch.

[Wingman]

We have been taught in WC that the "shortest distance between two points is a straight line". But that doesn't mean that all WC strikes travel in a straight path. Some WC techniques travel in a circular trajectory. Elbow strikes, comet punch (which resembles a hook) & lifting punch (which resembles an uppercut) are examples of WC strikes which travel in a curved path.

Does this mean that these techniques violate the principle/theory that the "shortest distance between two points is a straight line"? I don't think so. In certain situations, a straight punch may not be applicable. Sometimes because of the distance and our human anatomy, the shortest distance between 2 points is a curved line.

Actually, a straight line is a curved line with infinite radius!

[sel]

my original question was not about who is right or what is wrong. it was to invite discussion about what you understand to be circular theory.

for example, i understand the following:

all movements involve circular principle, including a straight punch. using a straight punch as an example: the fist travels in a straight line. it is powered by the elbow which takes the path of a circle (arc). the shoulder is as a centre point to the arc of the elbow.
wing chun utilises three fundamental geometric structures. straight line, triangle and circle. the straight line denotes the straight line to the attacker. the triangle denotes the structure. the circle denotes the movement. in any compound movement these structures are all present.
for example, a tan sau: individual lines of focus to the target (wrist, elbow, shoulder) of a triangular shape. the use of force creates the circles. as you roll from tan sau to bong sau the circle rotates creating a sphere and a cone.

[Wingman]

Hi sel,

It's good that you clarified your original question. I think this is a good topic that merits further discussion.

IMHO, WC has "straight line & triangular principles". But it doesn't have a "circular principle"; only circular movements.:)

[sel]

ok, lets call it circular movements then.
are all movements in wing chun circular? i think they are.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by sel
ok, lets call it circular movements then.
are all movements in wing chun circular? i think they are.
As I've said before, a straight line is a curved line with an infinite radius. So all straight lines are curve or circular lines.:D

[S.Teebas]

sel says:

as you roll from tan sau to bong sau the circle rotates creating a sphere and a cone.

Rolling form tan to bong creates a cone? Where?

[yylee]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
sel says:
Rolling form tan to bong creates a cone? Where?

don't your tan-bong always point forward?


IMO, circular movement is a continuous use of levers.

so, IMHO, at higher stage the dynamic use of levers becomes more important than making circles.

[Wingman]

I think the rolling from tan sao to bong sao forms a helix. The common helix is the curve formed by the thread of the ordinary screw.

[Train]

Yut Jee Chong Choi (straight line punch), Bong Sau, or Tan Sau ect. is not circular :)

[S.Teebas]

yylee says:

don't your tan-bong always point forward?

I try to get my whole body to point forward. Im not sure which cone is being discussed? ....any diagrams you could point me to??

Interesting point on dynamic leavers. :)

[S.Teebas]

Yut Jee Chong Choi (straight line punch), Bong Sau, or Tan Sau ect. is not circular

Maybe if you examine the mechanics of it you'll see the circles. ;)

[kj]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
yylee says:


I try to get my whole body to point forward. Im not sure which cone is being discussed? ....any diagrams you could point me to??


FWIW, if you've seen a copy of Tsui Sheung Tin's out-of-print book, I believe there are some diagrams in there showing dotted line cones. As I recall, the cone is circumscribed by the tan/bong/fook rotations in luk sau; the tip of the imaginary cone is shown as if aimed and drilling into the opponent. I mention as it seems a decent chance those diagrams are similar to what yylee is getting at.


Interesting point on dynamic leavers. :)

Yup.

Regards,
- kj

[sel]

thanks kj, that's where it is!
cone, like pyramid, is a very stable structure. i like the idea of infinity as well, that is, no end or start of "technique to technique" just flow and application of force.