Mantis Questions

[diego]

http://www.northernmantis.com/bungbo.html

http://www.northernmantis.com/images/bungbopops/bb42.jpg

http://www.northernmantis.com/images/bungbopops/bb43.jpg
He starts in a left heel-adduction stance and uses a left hook hand, then steps into a right heel-adduction and use a left pak sao and a right horizontal punch.


I'm told the style I do, is a blend of Mantis and Hop Gar, formed into a style of Kajukenbo. I'm hoping to find out more about NPM's usage of the heel-adduction stance through combat footworks...What's the differance between this stance and a cat stance?. Why would you use this stance oppossed to a cat in a fight, and vice versa?. How do the many styles of NPM pivot in this stance....heel, ball of foot, or whole foot?.

Also, I would like to find out more about how mantis's Hooking Hand is applied. I know how to apply the hooking hand by pulling into your chest like wing chun's wu sao, then rollback-forward with a rear pak and change the lead hookhand into a backfist or backofhook-to the side of the face. How does the hook make contact coming outside of an opponnents arm?. Does it directly hook, or do you stop the opponnents arm with your forearm first, then rip his bridge with your fingers, as HopGar does?...In hopgar you stop it with a backfist or whatever then rip down his arm changing the backfist into a claw.
Thanks

[diego]

http://www.northernmantis.com/images/bungbopops/bb19.jpg

We have this tech in one of our forms. His right foot is in a twist stance, with the right pulling back, while the left arm elbows up/basic armbar...then we unwind and push off with the left and spring into a right side fighting horse, and the right hand slams a claw to an opponnents face or chest, while the left hand (palm to opponnent) checks at your right ribs, or it could be a pak sao...Haven't learnt the applications for that set yet!.:)

Does NPM Styles have this springing-unwinding footwork?. Their is a few tech's with this move in the set's i've seen in the style i do.

[diego]

well 18 views.....hm it's not really a complicated question if you study npm as it's your basics:rolleyes:

[Tainan Mantis]

-none of the links work
-I don't understand what stances you are talking about
-a lot of questions are being asked. Sometimes it is hard to tell were one question ends and the next begins

[diego]

Hello agian Tanian :), I'm at the library, and the links work for me!?:confused: :D

The heel-adduction stance is the one where you do a cat stance, and instead of toe touches the ground, you rest your lead heel on the ground, with all the wieght on the rear leg.....that's how i learned it anyway.
I have three minutes until the library closes, so i'm kinda flustered with what to right to clarify the linked poses.......I got this link from one of your threads i think, also think you posted this mantis site?...don't have the time to check what number the moves are, but I just wish to know how the differant mantis styles pivot from side-to-side in this stance, and why would you use this stance in a fight oppossed to a cat stance, as the mechanics are similar with the wieght on the back...make sence, i'm bieng kicked off the net now!. Until tommorrow,
peace

[northernJump]

links work fine for me. If not just go to northernmantis.com then forms then bung bo.
What you call the heel abduction stance is a 7* stance.
the 7* stance can be used to hook an opponents leg or as a stamp to their foot - or so I've been told.
I'm not quite sure what your question is regarding the two pictures. Its the left hook pull and punch thru at the end of bung bo.

[Young Mantis]

well 18 views.....hm it's not really a complicated question if you study npm as it's your basics

Hey Diego, relax. Be patient. Not everyone who views the thread is able to answer immediately. I for instance viewed this at work just before I left and was waiting until I got home to answer you. But your impatience almost caused me to skip it altogether. Next time you ask questions, try not being so pushy for an answer.

As for the links, they seem to work fine. What you call the heel adduction stance is more commonly called the Seven Star stance in NPM. Not sure what your question is in regards to the sequence in Bung Bo. We step up from the left 7* to a right 7*. In the transition, the pivot is on the heel although the entire foot should remain in contact or close to the floor.

As for the usage, you seem to regard the 7* stance and the cat stance as being equal. Have you trained the usage of the 7* stance in application? If so, then you should know the difference between the two. Actually, I can find barely any commonality between the two stances. Everything from distance between the two feet, weight distribution and application is completely different. It sounds like you are saying your style uses the 7* stance in the forms. Have you learned how to apply it?

If not, then I think that is a lesson best left up to your instructor.

YM

[Tainan Mantis]

diego,
The links work for me now.
So my only request is to turn all your questions into 1 or 2 simple questions.

Like Young Mantis said it is called the 7* stance.
But, in other styles it is called go zi bu/hook stance.
The two pics that follow each other, the left and right 7*stance app:

Yi: right stance.
Jia: left stance(here taking the moves out of context of the form the 7* stance is not important).

Yi: right head punch.
Jia: left hand block

Yi: left head(or chest) punch.
Jia: left parry and step forward with right chest punch.
Here jia would:
- do the right 7* stance behind Yi's left leg which Yi may trip over.
-or kick Yi's shin.

For another use of the 7* stance used as a kick you can look at my video clip called "running part 2"
I posted on another thread.
It also has other 2 man PM drills.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by diego
Hello agian Tanian :), I'm at the library, and the links work for me!?:confused: :D

The heel-adduction stance is the one where you do a cat stance, and instead of toe touches the ground, you rest your lead heel on the ground, with all the wieght on the rear leg.....

I think the weight distribution for the 7* Stance is 70% rear leg, 30% front leg. Respectfully, the 7* stance's weight distribution may be different in your style, but correct for your style.



why would you use this stance in a fight oppossed to a cat stance, as the mechanics are similar with the wieght on the back...make sence...

Personally, putting my leg in the 7* stance during a fight makes me nervous. Maybe I just don't know the stance well enough, yet. A well-timed low side-kick to my knee would snap my leg. Like a broom snapped in two while it leaned at an angle against a wall.

As for the application of the 7* stance:
When doing the form, and shifting into the 7* stance, I imagine my leg shooting out a low side-kick to the knee and snapping it like a broom...:D

[mantisben]

Originally posted by diego
http://www.northernmantis.com/images/bungbopops/bb19.jpg

...push off with the left and spring into a right side fighting horse, and the right hand slams a claw to an opponnents face or chest...


Great technique! I like the "unwinding" from the twisted stance. That "unwinding" could potentially generate alot of force. And it's quick too!
Great Technique!

I'm thinking you could also "slam" a hook-punch to the gut, or a hook-punch to the nut (if your opponent is taller). Maybe even an inward-swinging elbow to the face! Thanks for sharing that technique from your style!

[diego]

Originally posted by Young Mantis


Hey Diego, relax. Be patient. Not everyone who views the thread is able to answer immediately. I for instance viewed this at work just before I left and was waiting until I got home to answer you. But your impatience almost caused me to skip it altogether. Next time you ask questions, try not being so pushy for an answer.



YM

YIKES:) I should be more patient I know, sorry about that....I mean I did feel abit annoyed but I was also using sarcasm...Thanks for not finding that comment to rude, and deciding not to reply!.:cool:

Technical post to follow in about twenty minutes, just wanted to get that out of the way.
cheers

[diego]

So, taking into consideration what has been said, i will start over:) .

In my style I was told you are either 100/0, or 50/50....no inbetween...Always need a light side and a heavy side, so we can evade quickly if needed, and can easily place all our weight behind a strike. The style is Longfist-to short range based, meaning we strike from afar to close in, or we get inclose and strike Big...The longstrikes can be used like a boxers jab to set up into clinching tech's, or the Longfists can be used in close aided by footsweeps etc...so you strike right through your opponnent, pressing through him with your strike a foot or two.

Crap, i'm being kicked off the net, so I will have to finish this tommorrow.

Tanian Mantis, I cannot find your video...i looked through your posts in your profile, and scanned at Mantis108's forum but no-go:cool: ...Would you post the link?.

Mantis Ben, by hook do you mean horizontal punch, or inverted backfist to the gut?.
Peace

[diego]

horizontal backfist....sau choi in choy li fut

http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/images/choy_lay_fut/ten_elements/10el_sau.jpg


we use this tech extensively to the head; I haven't learned any body shots with it, but i'm sure i have seen applications to the body in mantis articles!?.:)

[mantisben]

Originally posted by diego
Mantis Ben, by hook do you mean horizontal punch, or inverted backfist to the gut?.
Peace
I mean hook/upper-cut to the gut like a boxer's upper-cut.

[Tainan Mantis]

diego,
I'll dig up that thread for you.

[diego]

Hello agian, the library which i can download from changed it's summer hours so it took awhile for me to watch the pm clips:)...So, I see how the mantis stance can be used as a sweep kick as demo'd in Running pt2 in Tanians clips...Does anyone own the drunken kf book by leung ting?...I made a thread about it on the southern forum and in this set the sifu demo's the mantis stance with a multitude of differant hand strike...has anyone seen this?.

All the techniques which use the mantis stance in my style are side facing meaning you strike from your centralline and not your centerline as demo'd with the mantis stance in the drunken book by leung ting. I will try to find a picture showing the centralline shortly:).

[diego]

http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/vingtsun_concepts.htm

so in picture three the chinese guy on the right is in a side left stance and uses a kwan sao vs the white guy on the lefts left jab. The chinese guy is doing the centraline stance and when we do that stance in mantis the left heel touches the floor and the left toe is raised.
We can upcut to the chin or backfist the face or claw the eyes with our right if we are inside the opponnent (the chinese guy is outside of the opponnent...inside would be agianst a right punch from the opponnent in this picture!) from the outside we can snake a right hammerfist down to his groin or we can upcut to the ribs or punch/claw the face. We can do double palm blocks to his forearm and wrist whether inside or outside of his stance, and instead of doing a palm to his forearm we can backfist to his bicep using a destruction technique...that's the gist of the basics in my styles side mantis stance...also on the inside we can do pheonix eye fist to his solar plexus!. out of time til tommorrow orso:).

I would also like to know how the various mantis styles grab punches, you guys use the last three fingers right?...like as a quik hooking grab?...how many ways can the mantis hook hand be apllied?...also in the leung ting drunkard book the sifu demo's what looks like a similar three finger hooking defense...however i can't read chinese so:D
peace

[mantis108]

I am not sure what you are trying to come across. Are you saying that in your style of Kung Fu (sorry I am not familiar with your bio) there are mantis techniques (what style of PM is it?), one of which looks like picture #3 in the link you provided? This is being taught in your school? Or are you just looking for cool movie-fu choreography from Leung Ting's book? You sounded like you have plenty of ideas. I simple do not see any connection between your suggested applications and those of PM. I don't think I follow you.

Mantis108

[ursa major]

Originally posted by mantisben


Great technique! I like the "unwinding" from the twisted stance. That "unwinding" could potentially generate alot of force. And it's quick too!
Great Technique!

I'm thinking you could also "slam" a hook-punch to the gut, or a hook-punch to the nut (if your opponent is taller). Maybe even an inward-swinging elbow to the face! Thanks for sharing that technique from your style!

Hello mantisben,

We do similar steps in many 7 Star forms. EG: White Ape Exits Cave, White Ape Steals Peach... twisted stance with mantis hook and elbow attack followed by advance with right falling fist then right vertical supported fore-arm.

For the record, as far as I know, most stylists play the twisted stance and steps immediately following (as per example) as an intercept followed by throw. Just depends on how you feel like playing it if it works at the right time and place thats all that matters.

I have a variation I use instead of twisting into position I intercept while stepping back with lead leg ending up in twisted stance and still attacking the elbow in the prescribed manner. Abit awkward until you try it several times with a partner. It draws the opponent's body in to a clothes hanger type strike off your right side as you 'untwist'. Try it.

UM.

[diego]

Originally posted by mantis108
I am not sure what you are trying to come across. Are you saying that in your style of Kung Fu (sorry I am not familiar with your bio) there are mantis techniques (what style of PM is it?), one of which looks like picture #3 in the link you provided? This is being taught in your school? Or are you just looking for cool movie-fu choreography from Leung Ting's book? You sounded like you have plenty of ideas. I simple do not see any connection between your suggested applications and those of PM. I don't think I follow you.

Mantis108

Hello Mantis108, if you go back and read the beginning of this thread i stated: I'm told the style I do, is a blend of Mantis and Hop Gar, formed into a style of Kajukenbo. I'm hoping to find out more about NPM's usage of the heel-adduction stance through combat footworks...What's the differance between this stance and a cat stance?. Why would you use this stance oppossed to a cat in a fight, and vice versa?. How do the many styles of NPM pivot in this stance....heel, ball of foot, or whole foot?.

Now in my style (which was taught to my teacher in the 70s) we use the mantis stance but only from the side and not front facing like demo'd in leung tings book where the sifu demo's the front heel adduction stance or mantis stance in npm...What I hope to find out is how wide ranging is this stance....haven't seen it in wing chun only in npm, my style and recently in leung tings drunkard book!....and possibly other styles which i can't recollect right now.

Make sence?.

Now the teacher or founder of my style was killed in the mid 80s and non of his senior students know exactly what the origin of what he taught....or they are not talking...but i have in the teachers bio the statement of he studied mantis in san francisco from a w.c.wong (not the hungga master y.c.wong) which i have been unable to find any info about...so i hope to find out more about this stance (heel adduction) in hopes to find out more about my style......simple question really i'm offended you asked me if i'm looking for coreagraphy like i'm david carradine orsomeshiat trying to make up a new wushu dancehall style :rolleyes: :p :D

NO:)

If you have the time, would you please tell me about npm's hooking hand grabbing technique and how it differs from say hunggars tiger grabbing technique?.
thanks

[ursa major]

Originally posted by diego
... Now in my style (which was taught to my teacher in the 70s) we use the mantis stance but only from the side and not front facing like demo'd in leung tings book where the sifu demo's the front heel adduction stance or mantis stance in npm...What I hope to find out is how wide ranging is this stance....haven't seen it in wing chun only in npm, my style and recently in leung tings drunkard book!....and possibly other styles which i can't recollect right now.

...If you have the time, would you please tell me about npm's hooking hand grabbing technique and how it differs from say hunggars tiger grabbing technique?.
thanks

Hello diego,

The '7 star' stance shows up in various styles beyond PM. For instance I bump into it from time to time in several of the Tai Chi forms that I practice. Although the manner with which it is employed may differ substantially between various systems, I believe that as a stance it can be considered wide spread in CMA. The overwhelming majority of 7 Star that I practice employs this particular stance on a front/back axis and it is not so much a 'stance' as it is a snapshot on an activity. For instance a hook of the opponent's leg, a low kick, a transitionary position in a stepping pattern -- it is not meant as a static fighting position.

About NPM hooking vs HG's claw, the most notable difference would be the non-use of the thumb by NPM. Once contact is made both systems place similar emphasis on the the fore-arms, placement of elbows and making use of center of gravity.

I find the NPM method requires greater sensitivity and places greater emphasis on intercept while the HG method employs more body strength -- even when using the lighter side of HG, like Crane.

regards,
UM.

[diego]

Originally posted by ursa major


Hello diego,

The '7 star' stance shows up in various styles beyond PM. For instance I bump into it from time to time in several of the Tai Chi forms that I practice. Although the manner with which it is employed may differ substantially between various systems, I believe that as a stance it can be considered wide spread in CMA. The overwhelming majority of 7 Star that I practice employs this particular stance on a front/back axis and it is not so much a 'stance' as it is a snapshot on an activity. For instance a hook of the opponent's leg, a low kick, a transitionary position in a stepping pattern -- it is not meant as a static fighting position.



Hello, we have three variations of side-pivots:


say and opponnent punches with a left to your chest from a left stance

you step with your right foot to the right and deflect the punch with your left...quickly pivot on your right turing towards your opponnent...trap his left punch with your left hand and follow up with a right hand strike to the point of your choice.

We can be in either a left cat stance (all the weight is on the rear right leg)

we can be in a mantis stance

or we have another variation which is really a crane stance (which is usually stepped into by shuffling ones stance) stepped into from a pivot where you lift the rear right heel from a cat stance and place all your weight on the front left leg (i will try to find a picture) this is good for quikfighting according to my understanding of the application.
I find the cat works good for inclose fighting applications and the techniques from that platform manifest rather tight in execution, wheras i find the mantis works inbetween the cat and the crane stance pivot.

now for instance say from the cat we will use a tiger claw to grip the arm with a left grab and slam a tiger claw into the left side of his face with our right...now from there we can step and pivot into a right mantis stance (weight on left leg and lift right toe)cutting the inside of his left arm with a right garn sao in wing chun or downward wiping defense and slip a left uppercut to his chin...then followup with some hopgar longfist stance ramming technique......so that's an example of the differance between the cat and the mantis stance from side to side pivot technique.

the crane pivot is the same footwork as the cat stance pivot but instead of letting the weight sit on the back it shifts to the front leg to create total torque in your followup strike...you step to the right with your right and deflect with your left then pivot on the ball of your right foot and place all the weight onto your left toe-ball of foot and slam a uppercut-short to his left ribs and followup.

So, i see the differance between cat and mantis being due to the situation of the fight, like how quik you have to counter and the size of your opponnent...my teacher didn't know the fine details he just showed me the applications and form!...so what do you think... would you use this pivoting action with the frame of the mantis stance in a fight?...do you even do side to side western boxerlike pivots in mantis, like wing chun is famous for?.

I'm going to ask you about your springloaded steps, in your last post, in my next post :)
cheers

[ursa major]

Originally posted by diego
... So, i see the differance between cat and mantis being due to the situation of the fight, like how quik you have to counter and the size of your opponnent...my teacher didn't know the fine details he just showed me the applications and form!...so what do you think... would you use this pivoting action with the frame of the mantis stance in a fight?...do you even do side to side western boxerlike pivots in mantis, like wing chun is famous for?.

I'm going to ask you about your springloaded steps, in your last post, in my next post :)
cheers

Well, assuming we are talking about the same thing, I see no reason not to use 7 Star on a side pivot but again how I might employ it would probably be different from your description. I tend to use 7 Star side to side as part of open-the-door method for the lower gate while the upper gate re-directs with palms, etc. I find the lower gate shift in balance works well in fact the dragging of the heel doubles up as a possible trip for the opponent as they pass you during their rush.

This discussion would be alot easier with pictures eh ? Fact is you could be talking apples and I oranges and we could both agree on bananas hahahaha...

UM.

[devout]

Diego,

In perusing your posts -and they are copious- I am reminded of William Butler Yeats.
“...What rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born.”
What ever you are putting together with the myriad of questions that you post both near and far, must be fantastic in size, and at the very least daunting in shape. Quite like a burlesque pearl even...
You are, at the very least, self possessed enough to ask a salvo of questions, and some fine minds have taken time to work through your enthusiasm.

keep hacking away....

[diego]

Honestly what am i sposed to say to that....thanks or be frightened i have a stalker:)