PDA

View Full Version : 1909



r.(shaolin)
07-08-2001, 03:34 PM
NorthernShaolin (or anyone)
When Jingwu was founded there were 10 form that
were established as the common first ten to be
taught. Of these ten, who was it that brought in the Shaolin forms Tan Toi and TuoZhan in the Jingwu". Properly called TAN TUI SHI ER LU and TUO ZHAN QUAN YI - which was also called TUO JI. I know that it was not Sun Yu Fung because this curriculum was in place before he go there in the 20's.

NorthernShaolin
07-09-2001, 04:19 AM
R,
It was Chao Lin Ho who was a master of Northern Shaolin. His speciality was the NSL Battle sets which is a close cousin to the style Mi Tsung.

I translated a section from a Ching Wu document that may explain more about the techniques involved in the sets that you are inquiring.

‘As the chief instructor, Chao Lin Ho developed a curriculum that would be regarded as the standard Ching Wu sets. In one of his lecture papers he wrote: “Our Chinese Wu Shu (Martial Arts) is composed of many styles. Long ago, sifus were very selfish. They kept their own styles very secret, teaching no one their real kung fu except for a select few disciples. Eventually good styles died out. Huo Yuan Chia organized the Ching Wu Ti Yu Hui in Shanghai for the express purpose of creating a National Martial Arts free from stylistic jealousy and secrecy. Good techniques from the co-operating styles were grouped into ten Ching Wu hand and weapon sets. These ten sets will be the standard sets for our school.

1. Twelve Rows of Tam Tui
2. Gung Lic Kung (Work - Strength Fist)
3. Jeet Chuan (Weaving Fist)
4. Big Battle Fist
5. Eight Trigram Saber
6. Shepherding Staff
7. Five Tiger Spear
8. Tam Tui Sparring
9. Set Fist
10. Saber verses Spear

Within these ten sets are elements of numerous styles from throughout China. It does not stress one style over another nor any particular region. Those techniques which are considered good and useful were included. This program takes two years to complete. Any instructor who wishes to teach at the Ching Wu Physical Cultural Association must learn these ten sets.

Any student who completes the ten fundamental sets may proceed to other styles. The ten sets, in encompassing good elements of many styles, will give the student a knowledge of principles of Martial Arts in China.” ‘

:) :cool:

r.(shaolin)
07-09-2001, 07:57 AM
We seem to have very similar lists - well almost : - )
The list that I have however included Tuo Zhan quan and yours does not. See listed below.

The Shaolin Wushu Lohan Men I practice includes Tan Tui and Tuo Zhan Quan (Escape Battle Boxing)
and I was curious about how these forms arrived at Jingwu.
Our Tan Tui is extremely close to the one practiced by JingWu. Tuo Zhan is practiced at the Jingwu in Hong Kong (who
list it as one of the 10 original forms as practice at Jingwu in Shanghai)
I haven't seen it andm am interested if seeing it to compare.


1. Gong li quan- Power Boxing
2, Da zhan quan - Big Battle Boxing
3, Tuo zhan quan - Escape Battle Boxing
4, Jie quan - Section Boxing
5, Saber vs spear
6, Tan Tui
7, Jie Tan Tui
8, Wu Hu Qiang - Five Tiger Spear
9, Qun Yang Gun - flock / Shepherd Staff
10 Bagua Dao
a

NorthernShaolin
07-10-2001, 04:17 AM
R,

Chao Lin Ho brought the Battle sets to Ching Wu and they consist of five sets:Short battle, Loose Battle, Cross Battle, Big Battle and Combination Battle.


Short Battle contains techniques that were used in close distance, small areas or ambushes. It taught one the usage of the elbow, the body, the horse and grabbling techniques against an opponent. Complete Battle or Cross Battle demonstrated the proper placing of the feet and the horse in relationship to directions. It taught defense against opponents when surrounded. Loose Battle demonstrated the avoidance of grabbing techniques and how to counterattack. Big Battle contains techniques that were useful in large open areas. It demonstrated attacking an opponent from a distance through different patterns of leaps. Combination Battle is a two man sparring set with six (6) rows that contains all the techniques from the other four (4) beginning sets. Most northern martial artists only learned the first four (4) of the the beginning five (5) sets. They believed that after they learned the first four sets, they could become the hero of Northern China.

These sets were very popular in the Yellow River and was not common in the South.

Every instructor at Ching Wu had to learn the ten standard sets before they were allowed to teach their own style. Convesely every student was required to learn these ten sets and pass a strict exam before going on to the next level. Thei process took two years. After this they were allow to specialize in a style and it usually was theone that the head instructor was a master at in that particular Ching Wu school. Someone in the past decided to interchange the battle sets but if you compare your list amd mine, they are really the same.

Some reference materials (all in Chinese) on these sets are:
Books:
Shao lin Combination Fist by Ching Wu Physical Cultural Association, written by Chao Lin Ho and Chen Chin Sheng, cir. 1920

Shao lin Cross Battle Fist, by Chao Lin Ho, 1901

Shao Lin Wu Kung, January 5, 1983 ( contains Cross, Loose, Big and Combination Battle Fists)

Shao lin Loose Battle Fist by Li Ting Hwa, Reprinted 1950?, Wu Chow Publishing Co, Taipei, Taiwan

Ten Fundamental Chin Wu Routines, Dazhanquan & Jiequan by Lam Wing kit and Ying Fun fong, Brilliant Publication Limited, 2000, ISBN 962-85291-6-1 (WebSite:www.kungfumaster.com.hk)

Magazines:
Shao lin Combination Battle Fist, Part 1, Wu Lin #1-1983
Shao lin Combination Battle Fist, Part 2, Wu Lin #3-1983
Shao lin Combination Battle Fist, Part 3, Wu Lin #5-1983
Shao lin Combination Battle Fist, Part 4, Wu Lin #6-1983
Shao lin Combination Battle Fist, Part 5, Wu Lin #7-1983
Shao lin Combination Battle Fist, Part 6, Wu Lin #8-1983
Shao lin Big Battle Fist, Wu Lin #2-1985
:) :cool:

r.(shaolin)
07-10-2001, 05:49 AM
Good stuff!
"Loose Battle demonstrated the avoidance of grabbing techniques and how to counterattack"
We are definitely talking about the same form.
Lam Wing-kit & Ying Fun-fong's book names the form
Taoquan. Tao meaning 'to move from a bad and u nfortunate event?. Chan Kin Man in his book published in 1984 names this form Taozhan as we do. Anyway, this form is part of the Lohan tradition
we practice. In my mind the Zhan/battle forms are part of the Shaolin monastery heritage, along side forms li ke Tan Tui shier lu, Xiao Hong Chang quan and Da Hong Chang Quan. From your excellent information I strongly suspect that Chao Lin Ho brought in Tan Tui as well.
He appears to be related in some fashion to me : -)
My teacher said that the Jing wu students would often come to their school and had a very friendly relationship.
thank you again NSS

r.(shaolin)
07-10-2001, 07:06 AM
Actual the charater tuo means not so must to get away but release or strip-away from the flesh ie. escape..

[This message was edited by R. on 07-10-01 at 10:25 PM.]

Crimson Phoenix
07-10-2001, 02:08 PM
I wonder if you know the gong li quan practiced in YMAA...it is said in their training program that this set was developped in Ching Wu. YMAA's longfist curriculum stems from that of Nanjing's central kuosho institute (master Li Mao Ching).
Do you know if the gong li quan practiced at Chin Wu is the same as in Nanjing? And if you know YMAA's gong li quan, how close is it to the one you practice?
Just curious, thanks in advance!

Phoenix

r.(shaolin)
07-11-2001, 09:24 PM
NorthernShaolin
Is there any where I could get these?
Shao lin Combination Fist by Ching Wu Physical Cultural Association, written by Chao Lin Ho and Chen Chin Sheng, cir. 1920 Shao lin Cross Battle Fist, by Chao Lin Ho, 1901 Shao Lin Wu Kung, January 5, 1983 ( contains Cross, Loose, Big and Combination Battle Fists) Shao lin Loose Battle Fist by Li Ting Hwa, Reprinted 1950?, Wu Chow Publishing Co, Taipei, Taiwan
thankyou for all your help
r.

Crimson Phoenix
We don't do 'gong li'.
The only forms that we do that appear to be
the same as Shanghai Jing wu are:Tantui,
Touzhang quan, Dan dao chuan qiang and Baguadao.
Of these I have seen only the Jingwu tantui and its very close. Taozhang I strongly suspect is very similar as well. The other I don't know bec ause I haven't seen them. Dazhang may have been done in our school based on NorthernShaolin's information however my sifu never mentioned it but I plan to ask him.
r.P

NorthernShaolin
07-12-2001, 08:24 AM
Crimson Phoenix,

Yes I know Gung lic Chuan.
The sets are very close with an exception of a few stances and techniqies. In the begining of his book, Northern Shaolin, he states that the local Ching Wu masters came to the Central Martial Arts school to teach so there was an exchange of MA knowledge and sets. In those days, this was a very commom practice; sharing MA knowledge for the good of the MA and of their country.

R,

With the exception of Shao lin Wu Kung book, the others are out of print and are collectors items. You may find a copy in any Chinatown book store, tucked in the dusty shelves. Shao lin Wu Kung is a recent book and maybe it can be special ordered at East Wind Bookstore in SF. Chinese MA books are usually on a 30 year reprint cycle.

Crimson Phoenix
07-12-2001, 10:12 AM
Northern and R., I bow to you for the answers ;-)