Can my God beat your God?

[shaolin kungfu]

First off, let me state that I am an athiest, so this is not a real religious post. It is not ment to offend or insult any religion, so please don't take it as an assault on religion. That said...

If gods were not immortal and could be hurt, who would win in a fight? Remember, some hindu gods have more than two arms, thor has a big ass hammer, and some native american gods are actually very intelligent animals.

[Xebsball]

Can god build a rock so heavy that he cant lift it?

[cho]

the Sun Wu Kong (Monkey King) would whoop EVERYBODY down, Greek, Egyptian, Hindu, Native American, bring'em all!

and in the Chinese comic, Saint Legend, he beat the 8 immortals to a standstill.

[shaolin kungfu]

My money's on kali. That's one **** scary god.

[Xebsball]

Shiva is a dammn cool god

[rubthebuddha]

Originally posted by Xebsball
Shiva is a dammn cool god
any god that gets a machines of loving grace song named after her has gotta be coo.

[shaolin kungfu]

but could she beat up other gods?

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Xebsball
Can god build a rock so heavy that he cant lift it?

Western Orthodoxy: No. God being omnipotent means that he can do anything that is possible. A rock so heavy than an omnipotent being cannot lift it is not possible, so God cannot create it, just as he cannot create a round square.

Greek Orthodoxy: Yes. And then he can lift it.

[shaolin kungfu]

Can god build a rock so heavy that he cant lift it?

This is an example of why I'm an atheist. Too many holes in too many theories.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by FatherDog
Western Orthodoxy: No. God being omnipotent means that he can do anything that is possible. A rock so heavy than an omnipotent being cannot lift it is not possible, so God cannot create it, just as he cannot create a round square.


Then he is not omnipotent.

Paradox!

[Xebsball]

god is not omnipotent cos there is no omnipotency, the concept of omnipotency is flawed

[shaolin kungfu]

Then he is not omnipotent. Paradox!

Hence the atheism.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by shaolin kungfu


Hence the atheism.

:D

[Xebsball]

Paradox!

[shaolin kungfu]

In the form of a question. Can god kill himself? Think about it real hard and you will see what I mean.

[prana]

careful, the Zen's might invade the topic with...

"What is god ?" - Think about it -real- hard :D

[Serpent]

That was Zen, this is Tao.

[shaolin kungfu]

No one's said that jesus could win in a fight. C'mon christians, root for your guy!

[Serpent]

Jesus was a hippy. He wouldn't fight.

[shaolin kungfu]

It's not whether he would or wouldn't, it's if he could. Have you seen the pictures of jesus? He's ripped! All his walking would give him the stamina, and the fish would give him the protein to build muscle.

Then again, all the lean muscle in the world wouldn't do a lick of good agaisnt the hindu elephant god.

[Serpent]

Or Thor's hammer.

[shaolin kungfu]

Or poseidons trident.

[Chinwoo-er]

(1) Monotheistic God(s) such as God, Allah, Brahmin ( so to speak ) or whatever will be impossible to beat. Even if we take away their "omnipotent"ness, there isn't any "thing" to attack. Something that is consistant with most of the Gods we are lobying for is that there is some form of 'body' to attack and hit. But with monotheistic God(s), they don't have a body. They merely exists and rain fire and brimstone at people. Kinda unfair in a fight don't you think ?

(2) I am kinda surprised no one opted for Ares. GOD OF WAR for crying out loud. When it comes to fighting, why does no one put money of a professional ? Since when have we started to trust a laymen over a soldier when it comes to fighting ?

(3) No one going to go for Hades or the Grim Reaper ? No need to fight there, just say "you're next" and the opponent would drop like a stone. Of course, with the immortality thing going on, kinda makes sense that "death" isn't a good choice of weapon.

(4) No one voting for Gwan Yu was also a big surprise. I mean that Chinese God with the massive Gwandao (81 cattles was what was being said about the weight ) who is worshipped by both the police and the mafia. When we really look at practical statistics, we don't know how well the other Gods fight. But we DO know that he was good enough to make it to one of the most renouned generals of the times of the three kingdoms. Surely that should count as something.

(5) How about St Micheal ? isn't he the one who led the cathorlic God's army to fight the forces of hell ? When you can lead an army of angels into a fight, surely the angels trust you. And they trust you because you are one hell of a ass whooper.

(6) Lets not forget the dragon staying and tiger subdueing Arhats of the 18 Arhats in the Buddhist camp. Come on, those guys are basically the symbol of Buddhist fighters. Here goes the logic. Buddhist -> Shaolin -> Whoopass.

[Serpent]

Chin-Wooer's post is like the ultimate ever undercard at the greatest UFC event in the universe.

I'd love to see that happen.

:)

[Serpent]

Sorry dude, hyphenated your name in the wrong place.

[shaolin kungfu]

Your missing a few points...

1. I've already stated that the gods can be hurt and are not immortal. So we are assuming that the monotheistic gods are of solid mass.

2. Gods do not include saints or lesser spirits. This rules out the possibility of opting for the grim reaper, St. michael, and possibly gwan yu( is he really considered a god? I always thought he was the patron saint of martial arts.).

That said, Are's was a very good choice.

[shaolin kungfu]

I'm still going with kali. Multiple arms that hold viscious looking weapons!

[Chinwoo-er]

Shaolin Kung fu, if you use those rules, then there are no Gods in the eastern tradition. The notion of "Godhood" is quite different in the east than in the west. If you trace the beings that are worshipped at temples in China, most if not all of them have some kind of mortal origin. They are made into deities by the people who chose to idolize or symbolize them. Hence, I think you should open up the notion of God to beyond just the western interpretation and just let whoever transends our pethetic existance into this arena of devine combat.

Winner takes everything. And I really mean EVERYTHING !!!

[Serpent]

I think I'll go with Ares, at least for now.

[Laughing Cow]

My money is on Anubis.

:D

You guys go ahead and fight.

Everything has to die and judges whose heart is as light as a feather.

[shaolin kungfu]

I'll agree with that chinwoo-er.

[shaolin kungfu]

I'm going with Gwan Yu. Bad arse mofo, and he uses one of the coolest weapons around.

[Chinwoo-er]

I am going for the Monkey King btw, the fact that in the story, he can basically turn heaven and hell into his playground is unignorable. Come one, who else ever did that in other mythologies ?

In addition, he was proclaimed by the Buddha himself as being the "Holy Sage of Combat" at the end of the story say alot about his supremecy on the battlefield against anyone.

[shaolin kungfu]

We should enter all our fighters on etapout. Everyone picks a god, chooses their style, trains them and fights. Who's with me?

[Chinwoo-er]

Shoalin Kung Fu, opting for Kali isn't the best choice when it comes to "arms". Why not choose the thousand-hand, thousand eye Gwun Yin ? Now fighting someone with a thousand hands, thats nasty.

[Kristoffer]

Thor would **** you up good

[MasterKiller]

My vote is on Yoda.


After he merged with the Force, that is, not pre-merger.

[Shaolin-Do]

But you have all forgotten the lesser gods.
What about Ralph, god of coffee?
or Untzu, god of womens undergarmets?

[Kristoffer]

..Or the dog you call 'mother'

[Kristoffer]

!

[Shaolin-Do]

haha.
You respegonize my dog as a god.
Silly fool. Our dog just had puppies and we do call her momma and mother.
:p
BHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!
:)

[Oso]

Odin. But, then again, maybe Freya. Odin backed down from her a lot.



Lets here it for all the beer gods who will run the concession stands:

Aegir brewed ale for the gods after Thor brought him a big enough kettle.

Ragutiene, (rah-gu-TEAH-nay) Goddess of Beer in Lithuania

Ninkashi, sumerian Lady of Beer

Hathor, Egyptian goddess of beer and ale and wine.

anyone know any peanut and popcorn gods?

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Serpent


Then he is not omnipotent.

Paradox!

It's not a paradox, as long as you adhere to the Western orthodox definition of omnipotent, which is "Able to do all logically possible things."

A rock so heavy that an omnipotent being can't lift it (since lifting a rock is a logically possible thing) isn't a logically possible thing, so the inability to create one doesn't create a paradox.



Jesus was a hippy. He wouldn't fight.

Dude, go back and reread the bit with the moneychangers. He drives them out of the temple by beating them with "a whip of knotted cords". This means that either A) Jesus was in the habit of going to synagogue with a whip on his belt, a la Indiana Jones, B) He got ****ed at the money changers, went home and got a weapon in a suiting up sequence reminiscent of the Punisher, or C) got ****ed enough to miracle a whip out of midair and start beating ass with it.

Anyway, my definitive quote for this thread:

"Someone asked me yesterday if Dracula met Saruman and there was a fight, who would win. I just looked at this man. What an idiotic thing to say. I mean really, it was half-witted." -Christopher Lee

[guohuen]

Thor would just waste all those sissy gods with that big hammer!

[MasterKiller]

Dude, go back and reread the bit with the moneychangers. He drives them out of the temple by beating them with "a whip of knotted cords".

C'mon, now. You're reaching.

Girl-slapping some money changers with a belt isn't the act of a tough, no-holds-barred God. He didn't even choke one out.

[Shaolin-Do]

Jesus is a wimp. If anything goes wrong he just expects daddy to fix it.
Err... wait... If im correct, jesus is his daddy.... And if jesus is god, then why isnt he wrathful and always smiting people like god does?
hmm... christianity leaves so many unanswered questions.... :)

[ZIM]

But why not add some more weirdness into this all?

J R "Bob" Dobbs will r00l them all!

Apshai, the praying mantis insect-god of the Egyptians might have a go.

Marduk would just enslave everyone, but he's pretty old...

What about the Aztec/Mayan ones? The Eater of Filth or the Sun God, anyone? ;)

Ahura-Madza, the *Original* Mono-God dude!

Factoid: During the time of Norse conversion to Xianity, there were stories of Thor challenging Christ to a fight... J C turned him down, Thor was kinda miffed, IIRC. They were worshipped alongside one another for a time... like a yin/yangly thing. I'd guess that JC would just 'turn the other cheek'- he's got the Iron body thing goin', doncha know! :p

[MasterKiller]

And if jesus is god, then why isnt he wrathful and always smiting people like god does?

Because Jesus was a practicing Buddhist, silly rabbit.

[ZIM]

And if jesus is god, then why isnt he wrathful and always smiting people like god does? How do you know He doesn't? :confused:

[Shaolin-Do]

Ive read the bible, and jesus never does any proper smiting!


"I see your schwartz is as big as mine"

Sorry. Just thinkin about spaceballs.
lol

:)

[MasterKiller]

Ive read the bible, and jesus never does any proper smiting!

Good Buddhist do not smote their enemies.

[cho]

Jesus was a hippy. He had long hair and didn't have a job.

Monkey King knows I think 72 of the deadly martial arts, trashed kingdom of heaven and hell, and made the king of heaven put a death warrant on him.

Greek gods, well, they're weird. was it Chronos (or zeus) that ate his kid and have it pop out of his head? Those kind are like if you slice one in two, his brother would be born out of the other half. weird

[ZIM]

Well, I'm still saying "Bob" (http://www.geocities.com/sterling3l/godbob.html)

But: Cthulhu, Nyarlothotep, Azathoth, Hastur the Unspeakable... Eris, Ahpook the Destroyer, etc. etc. Any of those would show Thor up as a total wuss. And probly Ares too. :D :D

[cha kuen]

Good Post.

[shaolin kungfu]

How many times did "bob" smite anyone? Two? And both times to little or no effect. He's almost as big a wuss as jesus.

[shaolin kungfu]

The god of the christians, jews, and muslims gets tired pretty quickly. I mean, he had to take a break from creating. Since when does a god get pooped? Stamina could be a factor in his fighting ability.

[MasterKiller]

The god of the christians, jews, and muslims gets tired pretty quickly. I mean, he had to take a break from creating. Since when does a god get pooped? Stamina could be a factor in his fighting ability.

Even for Jehova, it is time to eat.

[Chinwoo-er]

Hey, why not opt of cupid !

(1) Arrow = long distance combat. Hit his opponent before he even has a chance to wield that hammer
(2) Who can possibily in their right mind harm such a cute little child ???

[Chang Style Novice]

I gotta say, Fatherdog and Christopher Lee have a point. However...

Ganesh would totally whoop on all y'all.

[David Jamieson]

Ganesh isn't wrathful enough.

however, to quote Shiva (Siva)

"I am become death, destroyer of worlds" - The Bagahvad gita.

therefore, Shiva is the representative for all destruction and would thusly smite any god of anyones choosing.

I'll take Shiva for five with no spread.

cheers

[Shaolin-Do]

Yeah, shiva is "the destroyer"

Shiva specializes in smiting, and with all that smiting shiva does, I doubt he/she would care about smiting cupid too.

Then the whole world will be in trouble when cupid gets smitten and starts shooting bitter little arrows.

:)

[shaolin kungfu]

Apollo would be a better long range choice than cupid. He doesn't have the cuteness of cupid, but makes up for it in willingness to take revenge.

[Chinwoo-er]

Just a very important note in all this

Thor has a hammer, posidon has a trident and other gods has other weapons. But one thing we keep forgeting to mention.

DO THEY KNOW HOW TO USE IT PROPERLY ????

I mean, knowing Thor ( from his reputation of an absolute brute), his moves would probably be limited to the lift up, smash down. Even his speech may be within the range of "Me Thor, you Jane", "Thor mad" or "Thor smash" Sure, that smash from the hammer itself maybe able to level out mountains, but anyone would dodge that. A simple sideways step from any martial artist and he has all the room is needs to deliver a match ending blow.
That being said, I think that only the deities whose resume has some kind of fighting skill would last a round in the cosmic UFC ring.

Jesus and Buddha doesn't come close.

You know, I have been thinking, Confucius was known to have once defended his King against an assassination attempt. So that means he has some fighting skill. Of course, he would more likely be lecturing on Li to his opponent while getting danced on by Shiva

[Chang Style Novice]

Well, Ganesh typically packs a battle axe and an elephant prod and whip. Considering he's part man and part elephant, I guess we can assume he knows how to use the prod and whip at least.

[Chinwoo-er]

Ah Shaolin-do, there is the catch. Once you get hit by cupid's arrow ( from the furthest possible range, something along the line of 3 parsecs ), you fall in love with cupid. So you can't bring yourself to smite the little fella. Hence, Cupid is superior to Apollo

[shaolin kungfu]

Apollo's arrows bring instantaneous death. And the goal is to harm your opponant, not cuddle them to death.

[cho]

going with that logic, why not Venus/Aphrodite?
she'd make all opponents succumb to her will.

[MasterKiller]

from the furthest possible range, something along the line of 3 parsecs

Unless you make the Kessell run in less than 12 parsecs, then all bets are off.


Jesus and Buddha doesn't come close.

You know, I have been thinking, Confucius was known to have once defended his King against an assassination attempt. So that means he has some fighting skill. Of course, he would more likely be lecturing on Li to his opponent while getting danced on by Shiva

Hasn't anyone seen the Super Best Friends episode of South Park? Sheesh. Once David Blaine gets enough followers, we're all doomed.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
Yeah, shiva is "the destroyer"

Shiva specializes in smiting, and with all that smiting shiva does, I doubt he/she would care about smiting cupid too.

Actually, there's a Hindu love god very similar to cupid, right down to the arrows.

He's also bodiless, because when he pulled that **** on Shiva, he opened his third eye and turned him into a pile of ash.

Shiva don't mess about.

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by Chinwoo-er

(2) I am kinda surprised no one opted for Ares. GOD OF WAR for crying out loud. When it comes to fighting, why does no one put money of a professional ? Since when have we started to trust a laymen over a soldier when it comes to fighting ?


Aight man here goes, the god of war is also known as Mars (Marte in portuguese)
Now my name "Marcos" means "The one protected by Mars"
Thats right, youre going down.
Why? Becouse im invincible

(see my Ralek style)

[MasterKiller]

David Blaine will choke you out.

[shaolin kungfu]

Royce could chokeout all the gods and dieties at once.

[shinbushi]

(2) I am kinda surprised no one opted for Ares. GOD OF WAR for crying out loud. When it comes to fighting, why does no one put money of a professional ? Since when have we started to trust a laymen over a soldier when it comes to fighting ?


Actually Ares (The Greek god) was seen as a bully and a blood-lustful god that would run if attacked by other gods. He was despised by the other gods. Interesting he was the only offspring of Hera and Zeus. Many warriors asctually worshiped Athena Goddess of wisdom, battle and weaving. Even the Spartians worished her.

no Mars (Roman) thought taken from Greek Myth was clad in gold and a great warrior. Different Cultures different ideas.

[shinbushi]

Originally posted by ZIM
[B Hastur the Unspeakable... [/B]


You said his name :eek:

[Xebsball]

well thats why my name is not Arecos, cos Mars is superior

[shaolin kungfu]

Spartians? Are those spartans form mars?

[ZIM]

Actually Ares (The Greek god) was seen as a bully and a blood-lustful god that would run if attacked by other gods. He was despised by the other gods. Interesting he was the only offspring of Hera and Zeus. Many warriors asctually worshiped Athena Goddess of wisdom, battle and weaving. Even the Spartians worished her. shinbushi is correct! He was attended by phobos and deimos as well, 'cuz he needs the gang with him.

Cthulhu would still run the show- his whole purpose is to destroy the fabric of the universe and enslave everyone, like something out of Phantasm... so, yeh, Shiva would try to destroy him, but the universe would just collapse around him, thus negating all the rules that he was going by... Cheater!!!!

"Bob", OTOH, runs the Plane of Luck! He can always pull something out of his azz...

Side thought, for no reason at all: What kind of Lame modern gods would there be (other than "Bob"?). The God of the Stale Economy, the God of Prozac and Polyester, the Digital Diety? .... etc etc:confused:

Other lame cr@p: Manson? David Koresh? There was a daytime TV episode once... they had all the self-declared messiahs on, all of them fighting saying, "No, I'M the messiah!" "No, ME!" :p Sounds like a good warm-up fight....

[cho]

Originally posted by ZIM
Side thought, for no reason at all: What kind of Lame modern gods would there be (other than "Bob"?). The God of the Stale Economy, the God of Prozac and Polyester, the Digital Diety? .... etc etc:confused:

Way back in the day of I think Han Dynasty, China had standardized tests, so there was a god of exams who wielded a grading brush.

[dezhen2001]

Other lame cr@p: Manson? David Koresh? There was a daytime TV episode once... they had all the self-declared messiahs on, all of them fighting saying, "No, I'M the messiah!" "No, ME!" Sounds like a good warm-up fight.... sounds like a blast :D

dawood

[@PLUGO]

The Problem with Cthulhu is that he'd probably oversleep and miss the whole thing.

Shiva would definately be in the finals.. along with the Monkey King. We may rip on Thor but he'd be up there at least in the semi finals. Remember Balder as well nothing can harm him except for one very specific plant... so unless Loki sells him out in the semifinals (hedging bets & all) he'll do pretty good.

Tezlocoplica the Aztec god of Distruction and the end of time would also do quite well. He's probably got serious stamina.

Mar's weakness is that war is still a bit different that a one on one. He'd do well but fall against some of these creation/distruction types, if not some superior Kungfu.

An interesting thing with Ganesh is that he's also the God of good fortune. A close examination of his tradiional icons would reveal skulls & demons on the back side of his thrown. If he turns his back on you your FUNKED!!!

He'd probably prefer a role as coach. Considering Shiva's the guy how originally lopped his human head off (cause he got in the way of Shiva's getting laid of all things) and later replaced it with the Elephant head, I wonder if he'd forgive him and be in his corner, or opt for Auntie KALI.

In the end my bet would be on KALI though. She's typically depicted dancing on an unconscious Shiva so you know what's up with that. Multiple arms each with a cutting devise. She's so fast that she can not only cleave through armies of demons but lick up their blood before a drop hits the ground. Getting stronger with each taste... so you've got a vampire effect going on as well.

We still need at least one compitent Ref and a couple of sports anouncers...

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Design Sifu
We still need at least one compitent Ref and a couple of sports anouncers...

No ref needed.

Two men enter. One man leaves.

[ZIM]

Ref= Nike, Goddess of Victory [who might go a coupla rounds herself]

Announcer= Mercury/Hermes [with all that snide side commentary ;)]

Locker room 'Wassup'? guy= Loki





:D

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Design Sifu
In the end my bet would be on KALI though. She's typically depicted dancing on an unconscious Shiva so you know what's up with that.

Kali is an aspect of Parvati, Shiva's wife.

Are you sure that's dancing?

[GreyMystik]

actually, Eris would turn the whole **** thing upside down... as Goddess of Chaos , she'd just sit back and watch the rest of them kill themselves with petty bickering :D

"Truly Eris is a goddess to fear." [Euripides, 799]

[@PLUGO]

Kali is an aspect of Parvati, Shiva's wife.

Are you sure that's dancing?

Absolutely...

in short the story goes like this:

There was a demon who was so bad@ss noone could stop him. Every drop of blood shed by this demon would spawn a bunch of more demons.

Parvati manafest Durga... goddess of war who rides around on a lion and would probably do quite well for her self. She distroyes all but the primary demon and is exhausted. The demon insults her and she gets P!sssed. From out of her mouth comes KALI all black and dancing. She Whales on the demon & his army licking up every drop of blood before it hits the ground... thus getting a demon frenzy on. She wins and is still BEZERK!!!

The gods all all scared so Shiva walks up to her as she's busting out her dance of death. She knocks him on his ass and is dancing on his body when she realizes that this is the god she loves. recognizing Love as the only force that can tracend death she reverts to her original form & nurse Shiva back to health...

more or less...

[@PLUGO]

If he wasn't coaching I think the banter between Hermes/Mercury & Ganesh would make great sport.

I suspect Eris would be behind the scenes with Loki hedging bets. With Coyote playing the booking agent and the Fenris Wolf would playing debt collector.

Jesus would of course try and stop the whole thing and start a non violent conflict resolution discourse. While his Pops would probably have front row seats... eager for the elimination of the competion...

[ZIM]

Jesus would of course try and stop the whole thing and start a non violent conflict resolution discourse. While his Pops would probably have front row seats... eager for the elimination of the competion... A lot may depend on which Jesus you're referring to here, cuz there are plenty of them!

Let's see, theres: the New Jesus, the Old-timey Jesus, WereJesus, Baby Rodan Jesus, Black Jesus, Lady Jesus, Singin' Jesus, the Jesus of Steel, the Jesus You Least Expect [He's just some Freak!], the Small Jesus, Your Own Personal Jesus [sorry], Throw the Book at Him Jesus, Let-it-all-hang-out Jesus, Rebel Jesus, H0m0 Jesus, Vampire Jesus [who gave His Blood for you, but now He wants it back], the Hitch-hikin' Jesus, "Jesus, keep your shirt on" Jesus, the goddam ATHEIST Jesus, the blind deaf and dumb Jesus, "Jesus can You hear me?" Jesus, that web-slingin' Jesus, the Freudian Jesus [who's got SERIOUS issues with His Mom & Dad], Elvis Jesus and maybe the psychokiller Jesus.

But somewhere in there is just plain ol' Jesus, I guess.

*sniff* izzat sulfur?? :p

[@PLUGO]

you forgot to mention BUDDY CHRIST!!! (http://store2.yimg.com/I/jsbstash_1719_263587)

[Shaolin-Do]

lofl
theres nothing more fun than the new "thumb's up" jesus action figure!
("Drunken" jesus and "Vengeful" jesus comming soon, trademark christianity and associates, 2003)

[shaolin kungfu]

Has anyone seen the statues of jesus playing sports with children? There's actually a tae kwon do jesus.

[shaolin kungfu]

Here's a pic of football jesus.

The kid tackling jesus is going straight to hell. (http://www.catholicsupply.com/christmas/_borders/34428.jpg)

[shaolin kungfu]

Jesus is encouraging the children to solve they're problem through violence (http://www.catholicsupply.com/christmas/_borders/34403.JPG)

[@PLUGO]

& I thought the Jesus action figure on wheels was bad...

I don't know if I'd want jesus on my football team. He'd probably be great at catching a ball (unless the nail marks make his hands slippery) but c'mon, he'd probably let anyone tackle him...

Probably have a perfect record in Baseball or golf though... not to mention water skiing.

[shaolin kungfu]

Jesus touching a child in a not so appropriate way (http://www.catholicsupply.com/christmas/_borders/34414.jpg)


And baseball (http://www.catholicsupply.com/christmas/_borders/34416.jpg)


and skiing (http://www.catholicsupply.com/christmas/_borders/34422.JPG)

[IronFist]

You should show that Jesus Tae Kwon Do picture to the people who say that martial arts are satanic and will make you go to hell.

IronFist

[Xebsball]

Jesus did it for the chicks!

http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/tshirt.php?sku=a127

[shaolin kungfu]

It looks like jesus is taunting the kid (http://www.catholicsupply.com/christmas/_borders/34429.jpg)

No, you can't have my ball! Now go away before i smite thee.

[ComeToJesus]

:eek: Hey Hey Hey what's all this bashing behind my back! My style of fighting is unmatched.
Check out my friend Osama as he demonstrates our deadly art!
-- http://atomfilms.shockwave.com/af/content/osama_sissyfight?mature=accept --

[Black Jack]

I thought jesus knew peanut oil wrestling?

Did he not defeat Tiamat in a peanut oil wrestling match at Wallmart?

[greendragon]

Jesus won't fight. Monkey King is Top Boss. Drinks all the peanut oil in Walmart. End of thread. Please, no pennies.

[MonkeySlap Too]

There is no spoon.

[shaolin kungfu]

what christ really died for (http://www.raceworx.com/funnypics/dunkin_donuts.jpg)

[Ryan]

I'm a Christian...but there is no bias when I say Jesus could easily defeat all of your Gods. You see, even though he was a Pacifist, the Bible says that he could have summoned "Legions of Angels" to get him off the cross. So, you mess with my God, you gotta deal with his posse.

[Chinwoo-er]

Those angelic army won't be allowed to join in a one on one combat. In addition, he can't ask his daddy for help either. So I stand by my last statement, Jesus won't last one move against any other Gods.

[ZIM]

Those angelic army won't be allowed to join in a one on one combat. In addition, he can't ask his daddy for help either. So I stand by my last statement, Jesus won't last one move against any other Gods. Dude, thats the whole point! Jesus came down to die, man! Killing Him makes Him stronger, like Godzilla in water or something.

[Chinwoo-er]

come on, demonstrate some Godhood here. We don't always need to kill them to beat them.
Just break his arms and legs and we can call it a win

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Ryan
I'm a Christian...but there is no bias when I say Jesus could easily defeat all of your Gods. You see, even though he was a Pacifist, the Bible says that he could have summoned "Legions of Angels" to get him off the cross. So, you mess with my God, you gotta deal with his posse.

Well, if it says it in the bible then it must be true.

[joedoe]

And if you killed JC he would just keep coming back to life after 3 days :D

[@PLUGO]

Yeah... but the match could be over in a day...

My bet's still on Kali... Legion of angels or not...

[guohuen]

With this you can whoop them all. www.lethalo.com

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by Ryan
I'm a Christian...but there is no bias when I say Jesus could easily defeat all of your Gods. You see, even though he was a Pacifist, the Bible says that he could have summoned "Legions of Angels" to get him off the cross. So, you mess with my God, you gotta deal with his posse.

Incorrect, Jesus claimed to be the son of God, not God himself.

John 17:3 "This is what eternal life is, that they should know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ."

Here Jesus clearly defines two separate people, God and himself.


John 3:16 "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only son that everyone who believes in him might not perish but have eternal life."

Here Jesus, speaking to Nicodemus, clearly says that the one whom God sent into the world, Jesus himself, is his son.


John 14:28 "You heard me say to you 'I am going, and I am coming to you.' If you loved me you would be glad because I am going to my Father, because my Father is greater than I am."

Here Jesus himself refers to God as his father and clearly states that God is greater then he is.


Matthew 24:36 "But as to that day and hour nobody knows, not even the angels of heaven nor the son, but the Father alone."

If Jesus was God, or a part of a Trinity or in any way equal to God, wouldn't he too have knowledge of this day? Since he does not, he is unequal.


How about a few Scriptures by the Apostles

1 Corinthians 15:23-28 "but each when his turn comes: Christ the first to come in; then those who belong to Christ, at his coming; then the end, when he hands the empire over to God the Father, when he has superseded every government and every authority and power, for he has to reign 'until he has put all enemies under his feet'. Last of the enemies death is superseded. For 'he has subjected everything under his feet'; but, when it says 'everything' is subjected, evidently exclusive of him who subjected everything to him. But when everything has been subjected to him, then the Son himself too will be subjected to him who subjected everything to him, in order that God may be everything in everything.

Here Christ is described as handing over the empire, or God's Kingdom, over to a separate person, to God, only after he had subjected all the enemies God intended him too. By handing over God's Kingdom he then subjects himself to God. If Jesus was God or equal to God, how could he subject himself to himself or to another portion of himself, in the case of a Trinity?


The Bible was written as a book of instruction and guidance. It was written to be understood by its readers. So how does God want people to understand the relationship between he and Jesus? He describes it as the relationship between a father and son. Do you know any fathers and sons who are equal?


Revelation 1:1 "Jesus Christ's revelation which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place, and which he sent by his angel and indicated to his servant John,"

Just setting up this point, Revelation is being revealed by Jesus.

Revelation 3:14 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write, 'Says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation:'"

Jesus refers to himself as the beginning of God's creation. If Jesus were God, or part of God, how could he have been created?


Jesus clearly did not claim that he is God whatsoever, but rather gave that honor to it's rightful place, the Father, God. He differentiated between himself and God, naming ways in which they were different. The Apostles understood this and wrote of Jesus and God being different.

Jesus is not God

[NorthernMantis]

Lastly I would like to point out that in the Christian , Jewish, Islamic religions God is all powerfull/allmighty/omnipotent who reigns as the supreme and ultimate ruler over anything that exists and that all was created from God wether good or evil.

Why would God need angels if He was all powerful? God could whip any other god ( no offense to anyone of any other religion) without even thinking because his power is endless.

To take a passage from the Bible and excuse me if I don't write it perfectly off the top of my head "God is the God of gods and the King of kings"

nuff said

edit: The last post wan't mine's but since that person wrote perfectly what I had always felt I saved it for such an occasion.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by NorthernMantis


Incorrect, Jesus claimed to be the son of God, not God himself.

John 17:3 "This is what eternal life is, that they should know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ."

Here Jesus clearly defines two separate people, God and himself.


John 3:16 "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only son that everyone who believes in him might not perish but have eternal life."

Here Jesus, speaking to Nicodemus, clearly says that the one whom God sent into the world, Jesus himself, is his son.


John 14:28 "You heard me say to you 'I am going, and I am coming to you.' If you loved me you would be glad because I am going to my Father, because my Father is greater than I am."

Here Jesus himself refers to God as his father and clearly states that God is greater then he is.


Matthew 24:36 "But as to that day and hour nobody knows, not even the angels of heaven nor the son, but the Father alone."

If Jesus was God, or a part of a Trinity or in any way equal to God, wouldn't he too have knowledge of this day? Since he does not, he is unequal.


How about a few Scriptures by the Apostles

1 Corinthians 15:23-28 "but each when his turn comes: Christ the first to come in; then those who belong to Christ, at his coming; then the end, when he hands the empire over to God the Father, when he has superseded every government and every authority and power, for he has to reign 'until he has put all enemies under his feet'. Last of the enemies death is superseded. For 'he has subjected everything under his feet'; but, when it says 'everything' is subjected, evidently exclusive of him who subjected everything to him. But when everything has been subjected to him, then the Son himself too will be subjected to him who subjected everything to him, in order that God may be everything in everything.

Here Christ is described as handing over the empire, or God's Kingdom, over to a separate person, to God, only after he had subjected all the enemies God intended him too. By handing over God's Kingdom he then subjects himself to God. If Jesus was God or equal to God, how could he subject himself to himself or to another portion of himself, in the case of a Trinity?


The Bible was written as a book of instruction and guidance. It was written to be understood by its readers. So how does God want people to understand the relationship between he and Jesus? He describes it as the relationship between a father and son. Do you know any fathers and sons who are equal?


Revelation 1:1 "Jesus Christ's revelation which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place, and which he sent by his angel and indicated to his servant John,"

Just setting up this point, Revelation is being revealed by Jesus.

Revelation 3:14 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write, 'Says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation:'"

Jesus refers to himself as the beginning of God's creation. If Jesus were God, or part of God, how could he have been created?


Jesus clearly did not claim that he is God whatsoever, but rather gave that honor to it's rightful place, the Father, God. He differentiated between himself and God, naming ways in which they were different. The Apostles understood this and wrote of Jesus and God being different.

Jesus is not God

What about the concept of the Holy Trinity (Father, Son & Holy Spirit as one)? According to this Jesus is God.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by NorthernMantis
Why would God need angels if He was all powerful? God could whip any other god ( no offense to anyone of any other religion) without even thinking because his power is endless.


Bwaahahaa! Typical Christian!

No offence, but my god is best and your's are all inferior.

But no offence.

:rolleyes:

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by NorthernMantis
Jesus is not God

According to Christian theology: Jesus is a man. Christ/Logos/Nous is God and existed as God before Jesus was born. Jesus, the man, happens to be the complete personification of Christ/Logos/Nous. Thus Jesus Christ is both God (Christ) and man (Jesus).

[ZIM]

Why would God need angels if He was all powerful? Angels come from Zoroasterianism, which predates Judaism, Christianity, Islam, AND Buddhism, Sikhism, Hinduism...

It also influenced each in turn. Each took ideas from the Z- sters, the descriptions of paradise in Islam are taken almost directly from Z-ism. Virgin birth? Z-ism. Prophesy of an apocalypse under the direction of a returned 'savior'? Z-ism. Resurrection? Holy Spirit? Baptism? Yup. Meditation? Mantras? Yogic exercizes? Yep, that too.


So, just a little "In yo' FAITH" to ALL your derivative little religions...:D

[Christopher M]

Dualist punk. :D

[ZIM]

nonsense. I'm about as derivative as you can get.

[Christopher M]

Actually... it's pretty important to realize how derivitive all this stuff is if you want to really understand the religion; in other words, how they changed the conception of the time, and why. You can't understand the Christian innovations of universalism, direct connection with God, and anti-apocalypticism if you don't understand what they were reacting against. And if you don't understand this history, you're doomed to repeat it; as a quick glance at contemporary Christianity shows!

God ******, I promised myself I wouldn't be serious again tonight. Um... the apple has no bottom.

[Serpent]

What the hell is that in your avatar!?

[Chinwoo-er]

That third eye of shiva won't do much good on the monkey king. If you remember correctly, that primate was supposed to get roasted with heaven's fire after he was captured. All it did was make him stronger and give him those fiery eye.
Hence, you can't beat monkey king with fire

Even if you send the legion of angels on him ( which I must emphasize is not allowed ), he took on heaven's army a couple of times already. And still he is up, running and ass whooping.
Hence, nameless, expendable, staff fodders won't count as much when up against this guy.

[MasterKiller]

God is dead.

[Chinwoo-er]

Where's the fight in that ?

[cho]

try on this monkey king (http://webspace.utexas.edu/chotiro/www/saintlegend_wuku.jpg)

[norther practitioner]

cho..... link doesn't work, asks for username and password.

[ZhouJiaQuan]

what the buddha was a hippie and couldnt fight...ok you got that right, but he doesnt need to...

remeber the story of the buddha vs mara on his night of enlightement. mara was the "demon of demons", held weapons in his thousand hands and his army surrouned him on all sides. Buddha punked them all. they threated him and tempted him, threw weapons at him, and all he did was sit and meditate, then finally touched the earth, to which the earth roared in favor of the budda. The elephant mara road on then kneeled before buddha, and the army scatterd. He didnt need to fight, he made the army his bi tch :p

so i would expect the buddha would bi tch all gods, but then again this is what god would win in god vs. god, but buddha was a man (spefically stated he was a man, and didnt leave any room for misconception there)

peace

[Laviathan]

Galactus will kick everyone's ass...

But eventually Galactus too will be destroyed by Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet.

[MasterKiller]

Green Lantern would put them all in a bubble and push them into the sun.

[Shaolin-Do]

I think uncle fester would have his way with all them biatches.

[Serpent]

A lot of you are going on about the Monkey King, but remember Guan Yin? She challenged him after all the hordes of heaven had been defeated and he couldn't even escape her hand. Then she trapped him under a mountain for 500 years.

Sure, he's a hardass. But no match for Madam Compassion.

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by joedoe


What about the concept of the Holy Trinity (Father, Son & Holy Spirit as one)? According to this Jesus is God.

Well even though I am Christian I don't believe that they are all one God. I accept that there is a Father a Son and a holy spirit but they are not one God. Why would God need to show himself as a human being when He already showed himself many times? (i.e. to the people of Israel when they left Egypt) Even if he did why did Jesus talk to God if he was God? It doesn't make sense. I mean I have no problem with other people having different oppinions. I wonder why is it that the Jewish and the people of Islam don't have the same belief?They say the Bible has been changed over the centuries but I wonder about the Torah and the Koran since the Jews are descendants of Jacob (Israel) and the Muslims are descendants of Ismael (Jacobs brother).

I respect other peoples beliefs and religions as long as they respect mines but I was trying to express my point of view.I find it very hard to beleive that Jesus a very humble man who was trying to reform the church/temple/ whatever it is called at that time because he saw that religous practices were starting to become very political because of Romes influence and other things is now being thought of as being God. What bothers me to no end is why is it that people have so much hate towards Jesus? Why is it that man kind is so unhuman to each other?Whoo cares if buddha could fight. Who cares what color Jesus is. Why does it matter what continent we all came from? Who cares who did what?There are certain truths in my opinion that God wrote into the hearts of man and the message that I've seen in most religions (excluding the ones who are about hurting people and ding evil acts i.e. killing and sleeping witht he dead)is to be good to each other.Isn't that what God wants? Isn't that what we all want? Why is it so hard to find peace!?!?!...........

Sorry for the rant but had to let it out.

It's hard to say what is the truth and like I said one time in a theological discussion with my friends... when the truth comes we will find out that we are all wrong (including me). Until then I have to go on faith and on deductive reasoning.


Angels come from Zoroasterianism, which predates Judaism, Christianity, Islam, AND Buddhism, Sikhism, Hinduism...

Theat's very interesting can you enlighten me more on this religion? I never heard about it more.

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Green Lantern would put them all in a bubble and push them into the sun.

Green lantern couldn't do jack! Heck anybody can beat him. Just put a whole load of doorknowbs into a yellow bag and beat mr. lantern over the head with it. Any body who has the color yellow as a wakness is looking for a butt whoopin.:D

[joedoe]

Originally posted by NorthernMantis


Well even though I am Christian I don't believe that they are all one God. I accept that there is a Father a Son and a holy spirit but they are not one God. Why would God need to show himself as a human being when He already showed himself many times? (i.e. to the people of Israel when they left Egypt) Even if he did why did Jesus talk to God if he was God? It doesn't make sense. I mean I have no problem with other people having different oppinions. I wonder why is it that the Jewish and the people of Islam don't have the same belief?They say the Bible has been changed over the centuries but I wonder about the Torah and the Koran since the Jews are descendants of Jacob (Israel) and the Muslims are descendants of Ismael (Jacobs brother).

I respect other peoples beliefs and religions as long as they respect mines but I was trying to express my point of view.I find it very hard to beleive that Jesus a very humble man who was trying to reform the church/temple/ whatever it is called at that time because he saw that religous practices were starting to become very political because of Romes influence and other things is now being thought of as being God. What bothers me to no end is why is it that people have so much hate towards Jesus? Why is it that man kind is so unhuman to each other?Whoo cares if buddha could fight. Who cares what color Jesus is. Why does it matter what continent we all came from? Who cares who did what?There are certain truths in my opinion that God wrote into the hearts of man and the message that I've seen in most religions (excluding the ones who are about hurting people and ding evil acts i.e. killing and sleeping witht he dead)is to be good to each other.Isn't that what God wants? Isn't that what we all want? Why is it so hard to find peace!?!?!...........

Sorry for the rant but had to let it out.

It's hard to say what is the truth and like I said one time in a theological discussion with my friends... when the truth comes we will find out that we are all wrong (including me). Until then I have to go on faith and on deductive reasoning.



Theat's very interesting can you enlighten me more on this religion? I never heard about it more.

I don't know which branch of Christianity you adhere to, but I was brought up as a Roman Catholic so there may be differences in doctorine. In the Roman Catholic faith, the Holy Trinity is considered one of the mysteries of faith - that the three entities are in fact one being.

If you want to find out about the various other religion (including Zoarastrianism) check out this site. Very interesting stuff.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/

[Serpent]

Originally posted by NorthernMantis
There are certain truths in my opinion that God wrote into the hearts of man and the message that I've seen in most religions (excluding the ones who are about hurting people and ding evil acts i.e. killing and sleeping witht he dead)is to be good to each other.


What religion promotes sleeping with the dead? And, just because it's outside your paradigm, who's to say it's evil? Who does it harm?



It's hard to say what is the truth and like I said one time in a theological discussion with my friends... when the truth comes we will find out that we are all wrong (including me). Until then I have to go on faith and on deductive reasoning.


How can you possibly believe the word of the bible or the life of Christ as proposed by Christians if you use deductive reasoning!?

[prana]

..... must .... not ....

ok, he who defeated King Y***, but I shall not speak of his name. I am quite surprised not one person has brought it up yet. Perhaps its best kept secret ?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by prana
..... must .... not ....

ok, he who defeated King Y***, but I shall not speak of his name. I am quite surprised not one person has brought it up yet. Perhaps its best kept secret ?

Who? Goku? :D

Gohan with the Z sword!!!!!!

[Xebsball]

rant style:

heres mine, i refuse to type god with capital G, you cant make me do it :mad:
i type it anyway i like and fock you i will not obbey your dogmatic rules, im not one of you :mad:

[Serpent]

You go girl!

[prana]

Super Saiyans are weak. Go Margin-B000000000000000000!!!!

actually, can we consider Sepultura god too ! :D

[Serpent]

Sepultura, the gods of South American metal?

[prana]

absobluddylutely :p

[Serpent]

:D

[shinbushi]

Originally posted by Christopher M


According to Christian theology: Jesus is a man. Christ/Logos/Nous is God and existed as God before Jesus was born. Jesus, the man, happens to be the complete personification of Christ/Logos/Nous. Thus Jesus Christ is both God (Christ) and man (Jesus).
In Hinduism it would be called an avatar of that god

[prana]

When Rattamahatta goes ratta-ratta, even JC (Jean Claude) VD starts to exhibit signs of epilepsy :p :D

















sorry dewds, didnt mean to offend anyone.

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by joedoe


I don't know which branch of Christianity you adhere to, but I was brought up as a Roman Catholic so there may be differences in doctorine. In the Roman Catholic faith, the Holy Trinity is considered one of the mysteries of faith - that the three entities are in fact one being.

If you want to find out about the various other religion (including Zoarastrianism) check out this site. Very interesting stuff.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/

Yes I am Catholic.


How can you possibly believe the word of the bible or the life of Christ as proposed by Christians if you use deductive reasoning!?

Ok I apologise for that one as I said something other than what i was supposed to say. I'm in now position to be preaching to anyone ,even though that's what I'm doing , but I meant to say is that I will have to go by faith and try to interprit the bible the best i can witout taking things to literaly or too loose.

[joedoe]

More stuff on the doctorine of the Blessed Trinity:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

[Serpent]

Originally posted by NorthernMantis
Ok I apologise for that one as I said something other than what i was supposed to say. I'm in now position to be preaching to anyone ,even though that's what I'm doing , but I meant to say is that I will have to go by faith and try to interprit the bible the best i can witout taking things to literaly or too loose.

OK, well that gives me hope for you! ;)

I like to remind people to never be too narrow minded so that they can consider anything, yet not so open minded that their brain falls out! :p

[joedoe]

Is that how I lost my brain? :D

[Serpent]

Could be! ;)

[cho]

monkey king (http://webspace.utexas.edu/chotiro/www/saintlegend_wuku.jpg) works now. It's his comic incarnation using 'Searing Chi' attack.

[Christopher M]

Speaking entirely from the perspective of traditional doctrine here...


Originally posted by NorthernMantis
Well even though I am Christian I don't believe that they are all one God. I accept that there is a Father a Son and a holy spirit but they are not one God.

You're violating fundamental Christian beliefs. Just as a matter of proper semantics, if this is what you believe, you're not a Christian.

You're commiting the well known heresies of Arianism and polytheism. http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytheism


Why would God need to show himself as a human being when He already showed himself many times? (i.e. to the people of Israel...)

To found Christianity. Christianity isn't equal to Judaism and Islam just because they're monotheistic. Judaism doesn't preempt the Christian religion just because it's older.

I'm not sure if you're interested specifically in the theological or metaphysical outcomes of God/Christ's personification in Jesus. Say so and I can explain and/or offer links.


I wonder why is it that the Jewish and the people of Islam don't have the same belief?

Because they're different religions.


Originally posted by Serpent
How can you possibly believe the word of the bible or the life of Christ as proposed by Christians if you use deductive reasoning!?

You can't prove or believe anything relying purely on logic. Well... with one exception, you can prove "that at this present moment you have your current set of sensations." Any logical position instead results from argument from foundation... in other words, you make some assumptions as to what you will accept, and argue from there. This is used as often and with as much validity in theology as it is in science or philosophy.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Serpent
What the hell is that in your avatar!?

The infamous Rampage, of course; greatest of the Transformers! A cassette/panther who could often be found in the chest of Soundwave! -bzzt mmm yes megatron-

[cho]

I thought his name was Ravage.:confused:

[Christopher M]

Haha... doh... yeah, you're totally right. Rampage is someone else... can't remember who now...

[Serpent]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Serpent
How can you possibly believe the word of the bible or the life of Christ as proposed by Christians if you use deductive reasoning!?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You can't prove or believe anything relying purely on logic. Well... with one exception, you can prove "that at this present moment you have your current set of sensations." Any logical position instead results from argument from foundation... in other words, you make some assumptions as to what you will accept, and argue from there. This is used as often and with as much validity in theology as it is in science or philosophy.


You miss my point. I'm suggesting that if he uses deductive reasoning then there's no way he would be able to accept the legion inconsistencies and articles of supernatural in the doctrine.

Then again, see his answer as that does clarify his position a bit.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Christopher M
Haha... doh... yeah, you're totally right. Rampage is someone else... can't remember who now...

You sure it's not the Almighty *****Bot?

[shaolin kungfu]

Or the powerful vibratatron.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Serpent
You miss my point. I'm suggesting that if he uses deductive reasoning then there's no way he would be able to accept the legion inconsistencies and articles of supernatural in the doctrine.

How so? Like what?

[Serpent]

How could someone use reason and deduce, for example, that a burning bush could talk to someone.

You can accept it on faith, sure, but not with reason.

As for the inconsistencies, the bible is full of contradictions and anyone using reason would deduce that the same person (god in this case) couldn't have said all those things and meant them as they are contradictory.

However, I'm not going to start getting into one of those things where we start quoting bits of the bible at each other. Xtianity is not worth my time beyond a passing conversation...

[Christopher M]

That a burning bush talks to people isn't among the articles of faith Catholics are required to believe.

If you want to take it 'on faith' that there are inconsistencies that can't be explained with logic; of course, you're welcome to your own personal faith. :p

People probably have an awful lot of time accepting particle-wave duality or even the laws of thermdynamics by reason too...

[Serpent]

It was the first example that came to mind.

As for particle waves and thermodynamics, they are the best ways to explain what we actually see and experience and will always be up for change as further information or empirical evidence becomes available.

Try changing the view of a christian, with or without any kind of evidence.

[shaolin kungfu]

Particle wave theory is a result of hardcore testing and re-testing.

Nothing in the bible can be tested. It even tells you not to try.

[Christopher M]

The views of Christians have changed dramatically over the years. That's what a "theologian" is... they don't just sit around patting their backs about all agreeing. They argue, propose models, etc. It's a changing tradition, like any other.

Contemporary Catholic theology stems mostly from Thomas Aquinas who is closer in time to us than to Jesus. And, even staying with Catholicism, there have been significant changes since then.

Extend that to Christianity generally and you've got almost every different imaginable.

Do you guys really understand the reasons for particle-wave duality?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by shaolin kungfu
Particle wave theory is a result of hardcore testing and re-testing.

Nothing in the bible can be tested. It even tells you not to try.

But it is still only a theory. Granted, it is a theory that adequately fits the behaviour, however it is still subject to change pending further evidence. Just as Newton's Laws of physics were found to not really apply under some conditions in space. An they are Laws, not theories!

[prana]

my 2 cents worth of seriousness.

Buddhism has similar things, some practise are based entirely on logic and and examination, such as Vipasanna (mindfulness) and Metta Bharma (loving kindness), and another totally on unexplained (at least in the western world)(such as mantra recitation, prostrations, and various other "yogas"). Yet, when one puts time into practising the "Western logical" path, they still come to the conclusion of the "more difficult to explain" path.

I dont want to get into the debate of Xtianity and Buddhist here either. Just pointing out that different levels of understanding exists for different people.

Oddly enough, I was brought up with the bible, in a Methodist school, and my uncle is a retired minister :D I must be JC's biggest rebel :p I even had one pastor (not related to me) scream at me "Why are you so stupid, why can't you see the proof that jesus resurrected..." or something in that order. Come to think of it, I had a lot of respect for the bible, but my interpretation of it was far different from xtians, I saw things mostly written metaphorically, where many of my friends take them, well literally...

Maybe I am just stupid. Anyway, end of conversation re Xtian and other religion.

[shaolin kungfu]

Do you guys really understand the reasons for particle-wave duality?

I know it has something to do with light. If you gave me some time to go through my books I could say more.

[Christopher M]

So what you mean is, you've been told by someone that you should believe it and that it makes sense, even though it doesn't make sense to you personally.

And this is different from your complaints against religious dogmatism how...?

[shaolin kungfu]

So what you mean is, you've been told by someone that you should believe it and that it makes sense, even though it doesn't make sense to you personally.

This is in no way what I meant. It was explained to me in great detail at one time, and although it was extremely confusing, it made sense in the end. How you got that I have done no personal research makes no sense, especially after I said that I could explain more if I had some of my books.

[prana]

oh oh this thread has gone from

Can my OS hack your OS, to an PERL vs. PHP

doh!

Me go to lunch !!!

[joedoe]

What, that light exhibits the properties of both a particle and a wave? Is that the duality you are talking about?

It is the accepted theory (like many others in science) simply because there isn't a better theory yet to explain the phenomena.

I do agree with Serpent though - if a better model was proposed, then science would probably move with it. This cannot always be said of 'true believers'. ;)

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Christopher M
The views of Christians have changed dramatically over the years. That's what a "theologian" is... they don't just sit around patting their backs about all agreeing. They argue, propose models, etc. It's a changing tradition, like any other.

Contemporary Catholic theology stems mostly from Thomas Aquinas who is closer in time to us than to Jesus. And, even staying with Catholicism, there have been significant changes since then.

Extend that to Christianity generally and you've got almost every different imaginable.

Do you guys really understand the reasons for particle-wave duality?

Yet Xtians still believe, without any evidence and against all accepted scientific theory and reason, that Jesus died on a cross then came to life again three days later, to cite just one example of many.

Surely you're not serious?

[shaolin kungfu]

I was watching a show on the religious channel today. It attempted to say that evolution had no scientific backing, and that the ressurection and emaculate conception did. I laughed my ass off.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by shaolin kungfu
This is in no way what I meant. It was explained to me in great detail at one time, and although it was extremely confusing, it made sense in the end. How you got that I have done no personal research makes no sense, especially after I said that I could explain more if I had some of my books.

So that you can find it in a book means it's logical rather than faith-based? I'm trying to find what distinction you're drawing here.


Originally posted by Serpent
Surely you're not serious?

About what?


Yet Xtians still believe, without any evidence and against all accepted scientific theory and reason, that Jesus died on a cross then came to life again three days later, to cite just one example of many.

The 'evidence' for that belief comes from argument from foundation. Just like the 'evidence' for particle-wave duality comes from argument from foundation. In both cases, the belief in the foundation is a matter of faith.

You've been told these two things by two different authorities and chosen to accept one and not the other. That's fine. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs. It's just ironic when people act like their beliefs are the only valid ones and everyone else is a silly goof. Yes, this happens among agnostics and atheists and within topics other than religion.

Most of the time this happens when the people involved don't have any real understanding of the topic they are commenting on. If I may be so presumptuous, it seems like this is the case here.

Education is a fabulous cure for intolerance.

[shaolin kungfu]

Religion is based on faith. Science is based on tests.

[Serpent]

Hey, I'm tolerant of just about anything (except BlackJack! ;) )

However, I have seen light, I have observed experiments, I understand the theory of the particle wave model and I accept that at the moment that's the best way we understand it. Personally, I think we don't have the technology to measure as minutely as we need to.

However, try giving me the same to go on to convince me of the fact that Jesus rose from the dead.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by shaolin kungfu
Religion is based on faith. Science is based on tests.

Not quite - science is founded on theories that we then attempt to test. However even science is not concrete (as I think was the point with the particle wave theory argument) ;)

[shaolin kungfu]

That's why I didn't say science was based on facts. To my knowledge, all theories are eventually tested.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by shaolin kungfu
Religion is based on faith. Science is based on tests.

Science isn't "based on tests." According to the scientific method, you propose a theory which generated a hypothesis. Then you go and see if that hypothesis really occurs. If it does, you accept the theory. If it doesn't, you don't. If two theories are accepted, you compare them on various issues such as the breadth and depth of their explanatory power and Occam's Razor.

Philosophy works the same way, it varies in that the hypothesis testing isn't observation (empiricism), but logic. Science itself is actually a branch of philosophy; all science is philosophy, but not all philosophy is science.

Another branch of philosophy is theology. It follows the exact same structure.

What you may be aiming for here is saying that you are a strict empiricist. And that's perfectly fine; some people are. This means that you'll have to discard an awful lot more than religion if you want to hold a logically sound position... including most modern physics.


Originally posted by Serpent
However, I have seen light...

No you haven't. Cellular activation on your cortex has elicited a response in your consciousness. You subscribe to a worldview that describes a thing called "light" which is associated with that process.

Something curious... cellular activation of another part of your cortex will elicit a response in your consciousness that people describe as "seeing God."

What difference are you making here?


However, try giving me the same to go on to convince me of the fact that Jesus rose from the dead.

Sure. It'll take a while though. And it will require assumptions at a few places, just like particle-wave duality does (argument by foundation). For instance, it'll require you assume the existance of some kind of God.

[Serpent]

Which I won't do.

How does that compare to particle wave. I may not be able to see the particles or waves of light, but I can see it's presence or it's absence quite clearly.

I can never experience the presence or absence of a god.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by shaolin kungfu
That's why I didn't say science was based on facts. To my knowledge, all theories are eventually tested.

Yes, they are tested and eventually if the the testing 'proves' the theory then they may be accepted as a Law of science. However, even Laws are subject to review and change. So there is still an element of faith (or I guess they are assumptions on which the theories rely) in science.

[prana]

I think a hypothesis does not become a theory unless it is 'repeatable'.

ok, who's volunteering ?

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Serpent
Which I won't do.

That's fine. I've said all along it requires argument by foundation; not that it's required by anyone subscribing to logic of any sort.


How does that compare to particle wave. I may not be able to see the particles or waves of light, but I can see it's presence or it's absence quite clearly.

Both are argument by foundation. You seem to believe in particles, even though you can't detect their presence nor absence. How come? Could you convince me to believe int hem?


I can never experience the presence or absence of a god.

Go have your temporal lobe radiated with low frequency microwaves some day. Good times.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by prana
I think a hypothesis does not become a theory unless it is 'repeatable'.

No, they are entirely different things.

A theory is a model... you can pull one out of your ass if you like.

A hypothesis is something which a theory predicts.

You don't test theories, you test hypotheses. If a theory's hypotheses test positive, you tend to accept the theory.

It's the hypothesis testing which is repeatable or not. If it's not repeatable, you consider flaws in your testing methodology; and the previous results are typically rejected.

... a "law" is generally something which is assumed which underlies the rest of your reasoning (eg. laws of thermodynamics; see 'argument by foundation').

[prana]

doh ! I should just go back to school :D

Theory :
A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena

Hypothesis :
A tentative explanation for an observation, phenomenon, or scientific problem that can be tested by further investigation.
Something taken to be true for the purpose of argument or investigation; an assumption.

I suppose, the colloquial meaning of theory is different from a scientific theory, in the context you folks are speakin ? OK I give up, English truly is crapping me out ! :p

[Christopher M]

We have to distinguish between colloquial definitions and the terms as used by philosophy. I assumed we meant the latter.

Haha, english isn't your first language? Oh man... don't bother with it then! :p

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Christopher M
Both are argument by foundation. You seem to believe in particles, even though you can't detect their presence nor absence. How come? Could you convince me to believe int hem?


I believe in the currently espoused particle theory to a degree but my personal beliefs don't quite match up with science. However, it's apersonal theory with no factual backing so I won't try to impose it on you.



Go have your temporal lobe radiated with low frequency microwaves some day. Good times.

Maybe. But how is that experiencing god?

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Serpent
I believe in the currently espoused particle theory to a degree but my personal beliefs don't quite match up with science.

I don't. And I've yet to hear any model of atomism which isn't inherently flawed (aside from a priori of atomism, which is what currently espoused particle theory does; just like a priori assumption of God). The laws of thermodynamics fare no better, nor does Hubbell's [not] Constant. That's alot of science down the drain once you toss those puppies out.

Frankly, I find atomism to be demonstratably a more silly belief than the existance of God.


However, it's apersonal theory with no factual backing so I won't try to impose it on you.

Sounds like you did your best trying to figure something out, and you're not quite sure, and can't prove it, but it seems right to you. Sounds like how alot of religious people feel about their religious beliefs.


Maybe. But how is that experiencing god?

In the same way that stimulation of one region of your brain gives you "light" qualia (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=qualia), another will give you "mystical" qualia. This is the mechanism for symptoms of disorders like temporal lobe epilepsy (http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro01/web2/Eguae.html).

[ZIM]

In reference to the question concerning Zoroasterianism: I just got through reading IN SEARCH OF ZARATHUSTRA (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/ae/books/reviews/1817455), so that's why I'm kinda hyped up on it. ;) Good book, if you want background...

[ZIM]

You're commiting the well known heresies of Arianism and polytheism. You make it sound like Heterodoxy is a bad thing. We've got religious freedom, you know.

Anyway, as for monotheism:

Consider the impasse of a One God Universe. He is all-powerful and all-knowing, but because He can do everything, He can do nothing, since the act of doing demands opposition. He knows everything so there is nothing for him to learn. He can't go anywhere since He is already everywhere, like cow**** in Calcutta. The OGU is a pre-recorded universe of which He is the recorder. It's a flat, thermodynamic universe, since it has no friction by definition. So He invents friction and conflict, pain, fear, sickness, famine, war, old age, Death.

Do you think it's a coincidence that the Archangel Gabriel went to Mary and more or less founded Christianity, THEN went to Mohammed and more or less founded Islam? Conflict is what is required! Why do you think that the Godhead is listed as a Trinity? Friction, man, just friction...

And why is that? Because the beings we are pleased to call 'Gods' are really alien entities that thrive off our individual spiritual essences... they need belief and OBEDIENCE, blind faith, etc. IF you DO believe in Them, your best choice to serve Them is to choose to believe in several COMPETING religious beliefs ALL AT ONCE [I personally use a two-week schedule]. This way, I can generate all the energy all the time, all through myself alone...

Right about now, someone is laughing, saying 'oh nice troll'... well, go ahead and LAUGH pink boy! Oh, you'll be laughing when your nostril hairs are burning in the Hereafter.... but I digress...

...anyway, HERESY is COOL.

[@PLUGO]

I still think Kali would chop the Monkey King into tastey bits...

[MasterKiller]

I think ZIM is actually Jenna Elfman here to convert people to Scientology.

You passing out free copies of Dianetics, per chance?

[ZIM]

I think ZIM is actually Jenna Elfman here to convert people to Scientology. You passing out free copies of Dianetics, per chance? No, but I am a Rocket Scientologist. Diuretics is my book of choice.

[Christopher M]

ZIM - ultimately there is one thing that exists. What other option is there? Dualism is a non-starter.

You've got it all wrong though... all the strife is caused by the Demiurge. Angels? Bah. Archons.

[@PLUGO]

Archons!?!?!?

sounds absolutely Gnostic

[Christopher M]

Nah, I meant that greatest of classic arcade games, Archon (http://www.eidolons-inn.de/archon/archon.html).

[dezhen2001]

And why is that? Because the beings we are pleased to call 'Gods' are really alien entities that thrive off our individual spiritual essences... they need belief and OBEDIENCE, blind faith, etc. IF you DO believe in Them, your best choice to serve Them is to choose to believe in several COMPETING religious beliefs ALL AT ONCE [I personally use a two-week schedule]. This way, I can generate all the energy all the time, all through myself alone... wow. is a new series of stargate SG-1 out or something? :)

dawood

[KC Elbows]

Are you saying that's not a tenet of Dezhenetics?

I'm quiting.

[MasterKiller]

You can't quit. You're still under contract.

[KC Elbows]

**** contracts. Oh well, I was so close to clear anyway, might as well continuing my auditing. And since I shaved my head and all for it, I might as well stick it out.

[MasterKiller]

Obviously, you aren't close to clearif you still have enough money to pay rent and eat occassionally.

[KC Elbows]

I'm working on it.

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by Christopher M


You're commiting the well known heresies of Arianism and polytheism. http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytheism




Very wrong. In no way will I ever believe in multiple god's!It think it's blasphemous (yes I'm saying that again) and I totally abhore the thought of it. Just so you know I do not and will NEVER believe in multiple Gods.

About Arianism I have nothing to do with that and I'm not being heretic at all and I think Jesus himself would agree(heck he was condered heretic himself.

Yes I do think they (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) are all one religion and if you think other wise then you are wrong. Rember it was man who made religion and just because someone woships the same God that we know diffrently it does not mean he or she is worshiping a different god. If that were true then all the denominations of all these three religions would be worshiping somone different. Christianity came from Judaism. Jesus went to the temple, he read the scriptures... he was Jewish you know.

Then again I'm not going to argue anymore.

Don't get me wrong what you are telling is going through to me but that doesn't mean I have to see it your way just as you don't have to see it like mines.

[Xebsball]

†

powered by:

Religious-Dogma™
"Shortening and shrinking your thoughts, cos the man said so" :)

†

[Christopher M]

NorthernMantis,

I think you mistook my meaning. I wasn't accusing you of something. I was just pointing out what people call the beliefs you claimed you held: Arianism and Polytheism.


Originally posted by NorthernMantis
In no way will I ever believe in multiple god's!It think it's blasphemous (yes I'm saying that again) and I totally abhore the thought of it. Just so you know I do not and will NEVER believe in multiple Gods.

Previously: "I accept that there is a Father a Son and a holy spirit but they are not one God."


Yes I do think they (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) are all one religion and if you think other wise then you are wrong.

They're not ostensibly one religion, and you didn't suggest any reason for them to be...

[WanderingMonk]

I want to ask a question, what do christian think Angels are?

The Archangel Michael would be considered to be a protector deity or "god" by taoist and buddhist standard. Christians seem to reserve the word, "God", for the creator alone. While in other cultures, it is used to refers to both the creator and his helpers interchangably. The difference is one is a bigger god and the other is a smaller god. You call these smaller gods, angels, right? they have supernatural power, right? They can travel extreme distance at the blink of the eye, right? They can fight off evil and help the good, right? They can heal the sick, etc, etc., right? Well, that fits god in my definition of the word, god. Your mileage might vary.

wm

[Christopher M]

Historically, the Christian idea of angels is heavily influenced by Judaism and Zoroastrianism on one hand, and Neoplatonism on the other hand.

Traditionally speaking, angels are messengers. More loosely speaking, some would claim they are agents of divine action in general and not limited to messages.

They are an extension of God's power in the emanationist sense. It's worth noting that reference to angels in scripture is very sparing, and is more in a sense of a force than as beings.

The idea of vast choirs of angels and all the various names of angels stems mostly from the works of pseudo-dionysus whose approach bridged an elaborate version of neoplatonism with Christian doctrine.

One very important difference between an angel and a God, in traditional Christian thought, is that one does not worship angels; one doesn't make offerings to them; etc... they are distinctly not patron gods by any definition. They are only agents of God.

[Sam Wiley]

Have you guys forgotten where Christ says "Do not think that I am come to bring peace, for I am come to bring the sword"? Christ was not only a revolutionary, but he was also quite violent in some ways.

But in any case, Cthulhu would eat him for breakfast. I mean, Cthulhu is pretty much unkillable.

[ZIM]

I suppose that NOW would be an excellent time to say that I was riffing on William S Burroughs when I wrote that stuff on the One God Universe leadingto heat death without friction and what not...

Northern Mantis- some may have something against your beliefs for whatever reason- I don't. I think it's fine. My only point was that 'blasphemy' as a category is kinda outdated nowadays... what are we going to do? Burn you at the stake? I thought we worked that out of our systems long ago... WRT islam/xianity/judaism as one- yes agreed. All 3 have killed each other for blasphemy, what further proof is req'd? Seriously, If you honestly appraoch your god and establish a true rapport with Him, who's to say youre wrong? A man? Sinnah, puh-lease!

CM- a demiurge is a dualist concept, in some ways... WRT one underlying reality, sure, I'll agree there. I just not incredibly interested sometimes- I want to know whats behind the veil of ordinary reality, mostly. :p CM is right on the origins of the concept of angels.

WM- my concept, FWIW, is that 'God' has a quality of One-ness, rather than being a specific Being, or three, or whatever. Hence, everybody is wrong. So, when you wrote that 'god is used to describe god and angels interchangeably', that's right, but not, if you understand me.

I'm just a blasphemer and heretic though, exercising my religious freedom. :p If anyone s offended- get a clue!

Now, as for what preposterous stuff to write NEXT....hahahahaha

[ZIM]

But in any case, Cthulhu would eat him for breakfast. I mean, Cthulhu is pretty much unkillable. I believe we will find out. All it takes to rend apart the fabric of reality and summon the dark Elder gods forth is to have enough persons in the same emotional belief state at once. This is, of course, the purpose of made-for-TV movies.... see, Robin Williams' work [esp. in Jumanji, which was pure, unmitigated Evil] came close, but now the Powers that Be have switched to HBO and quite possibly the Internet. These mediums turn your empty brains into CONDUITS and BATTERIES for the emergence of EVIL!

[as usual, someone is thinking i'm joking... OK po'bucker, how many times have you been watching TV and a commercial comes on, and you say to yourself 'jeez, what was i watching?' see, they're taking your brains, man!]

This is not working as well as they've planned tho, so they're switching to Commercials, just you wait and see. Nike is a pale [nay, flaccid] attempt at doing the priming work...

What to do? Oh what to DO? Train HARDER!!! Turn OFF that Instrument of Evil, your TV!

Not that any of that will work or anything... The subject of this thread will play out before your VERY EYES! uh, sometime in the future, maybe...

[NorthernMantis]

Thanks for correting me CM my mistake. I shoudln't have said that again (do'h):)

[Christopher M]

NM - No worries man... I didn't phrase my post properly anyway. I meant to say I'm sorry if you thought I was criticising you. I just meant to offer up some interesting resources on those beliefs... they happen to be called heresies and most of our info on them is from the heresiologists, but that's just a matter of semantics and history!

I subscribe to a couple "heresies" myself... I think it builds character.

And ultimately the idea of "heresy" doesn't exist, because the idea of "subscribing to a belief" doesn't *really* exist. It's not like we have to fill out a checklist on our beliefs when we die. It's about looking more than finding.

ZIM - roflmfao @ associating Jumanji with Cthultu.

Yeah, the demiurgos is "sort of" a dualistic concept, and "sort of" a pantheistic concept... probably what caused all the trouble! But it's no more dualistic or pantheistic than belief in the Fall in it's more orthodox manifestations (Eden, Original Sin, Lucifer, etc).

What's important for me is that it doesn't "ultimately" violate monotheism/monism; in particular it maintains the idea of "The One"/"The Good" (from the Greeks). The trinity is hip to that scene too, following Christ:Logos:Nous and Holy Ghost:Soul corrospondances.

[Sam Wiley]

Hey, don't forget that according to the Yezidi religion, god cares nothing for mankind after creating them, and the only god concerned with human affairs and that we must please is Satan.

[ZIM]

Hey, Chris- here's a link you might like. (http://www.darkzen.com/Articles/budd-christ.htm) Good site, too. :)
and the only god concerned with human affairs and that we must please is Satan I think that others are probably 'buying our souls', too. Additionally, there are very likely to be 'gods' that *don't* want to be noticed... why? 'Cuz they don't want you to see what they're up to, thats why...

...If Satan is controlling the world, then it probly means that there's a black market [& what other kind would he be interested in, hmm?] deal for planets highly polluted with heavy metals, grime, deserts, nuclear waste, etc. etc. I wonder who/what we'll all be sold to? :confused:

[Sam Wiley]

"Drums out of the darkness, listen well.
Drums beating like thunder straight from Hell.
Trumpets are blaring, the time's come 'round-
Satan is here to claim His ground!

There's an earth that's green, there's an earth that's free,
there's a place for you and a place for me..."
-The Hymn of the Satanic Empire, by A.S. La Vey

Sounds to me like Satan has more interest in preserving nature than polluting it.

And if there's oppression, Satan is not behind it, because Satan is always the rebel.

And I kind of get the feeling that Satan isn't a great fan of slavery, what with his great respect for Martin Luther King, Jr. and all.

Think of all those things that Satan might have inspired: the Underground Railroad and its saintly Grandma Moses, PETA, Rosa Parks' decision to sit where she wanted, Greenpeace (a little shaky, that one)...the list goes on.

[ZIM]

Well, that IS a variation on "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" that I hadn't thought about.

Gotta hand it to you.... ;) :p

[Sam Wiley]

:D