learning outside of your style. [Archive]

Ether

04-23-2003, 04:32 AM

I constantly look at other arts and indeed 'brawlers'in the street. Some of those idiots fight better than any 'martial artist'! I think you should learn from everything and anything. I try not to look at individual techniques, so much as the principles that underpin them.

My Sifu has studied three different arts in varying quantities, but teaches only one. However, he will constantly refer to other arts to illustrate points about his own. How can I really understand his point if I have no idea of the principles that the other arts work upon?

My teacher has no problem with people attending other classes either, in fact several of my brothers and sisters do. I think its dangerous to try and learn too much as you can get blinded by the profusion of techniques you are seeing. This could easily cause confusion and slow down your progression in all the styles you study.

Contradictory I think but, hohum.

MasterKiller

04-23-2003, 07:36 AM

Out of respect, I always ask my Sifu about other techniques or forms I'm interested in learning. Many times, he knows a variation and will show me. If I see something online, in a book, or on a video, I approach him with it and ask his opinions. If he hasn't seen it before, and likes it, sometimes he will incoporate it our class lessons.

When it comes to forms, he is pretty open about us learning from qualified people he trusts. If he doesn't know the person teaching it, or hasn't heard anything good/bad about them, he may ask us not to practice it in class.

He still flies to Chicago once or twice a year to study with his teacher, and sometimes we can even make requests for certain forms we want to learn. Two years ago, he brought back a black tiger form from one of his trips because I asked to learn a tiger form and he didn't know one at the time.

Shaolin-Do

04-23-2003, 07:41 AM

I wouldnt care if my sifu said I couldnt train outside. In fact, I would probably leave for good. I have recently been getting back into grappling practice, and it actually goes quite well with my kung fu.
As for outside practice, my sifu seems a little skeptical sometimes when I show new techniques Ive been working on and learning from books... I know book learning isnt near as good, but you have to be retarded to not understand Dr. Yang Jwing Ming's comprehensive analysis of shaolin chin na. Or any other of his books for that matter.
:)

shaolinboxer

04-23-2003, 09:49 AM

all of the great masters who created the arts studied many styles.

MasterKiller

04-23-2003, 09:54 AM

all of the great masters who created the arts studied many styles.

True. But it's common courtesy to ask your current Sifu if you can go learn from someone else. Just because he hasn't taught you something, doesn't mean he doesn't know it. He may not feel you are ready.

Gold Horse Dragon

04-23-2003, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
I wouldnt care if my sifu said I couldnt train outside. In fact, I would probably leave for good.

With that kind of attitude, your Sifu is better off without you.

GHD

Serpent

04-23-2003, 06:53 PM

He's better off without his sifu. It is shaolin-d'oh after all.

;)

Laughing Cow

04-23-2003, 07:00 PM

Never really came up, as so far I never studied 2 styles at the same time.

OTOH, I tend to ask my Sifu about what answers our style has to say technique X or Y.
So far he has always had an answer and showed me how to modify/use on of our current techniques.

Some were real eye-openers too.

He teaches us the forms but we keep changing the techniques in the forms and adding stuff in as we progress., with new applications being shown as we progress.

What is a step now, becomes a jump in another application, etc.

Seeya.

P.S.: Sorry, got longer than intendet.

shaolinboxer

04-23-2003, 07:46 PM

The only person who can tell you how to train is you. Your sifu makes suggestions, s/he cannot make demands. Train as you feel you should train. Trusting yourself is more valuable than obedience.

Brad

04-23-2003, 08:37 PM

At my club most everyone seems to have some kind of previous martial arts experience anyway, so it's no big deal as long as we're not practicing the other stuff on his time(during class). If one of us ends up training too much stuff and gets spread too thin, it's our own **** fault. It'll hurt me more than it'll ever hurt him, lol.

SevenStar

04-23-2003, 08:43 PM

I see no problem with it at all. Don't become a forms collector, but by all means, if another style has techniques that are beneficial to you, learn them.

Sho

04-24-2003, 12:49 AM

But it's common courtesy to ask your current Sifu if you can go learn from someone else.In my (harsh) opinion, it's none of your sifu's business.

Richie

04-24-2003, 04:22 AM

"In my (harsh) opinion, it's none of your sifu's business."

I disagree. Especially, if you are a close door student.

MasterKiller

04-24-2003, 06:26 AM

In my (harsh) opinion, it's none of your sifu's business.

How would you feel if you spent an enormous amount of time training someone to do something, only to find out they were going somewhere else to learn the exact same thing?

Your Sifu invests a lot of time and energy in you; the least you can do is ask him before going somewhere else to learn. I know a number of instructors who will call the previous Sifu when a student comes in the door, to see if that Sifu objects to them teaching his/her former student.

It's common courtesy. Plain and simple.

chen zhen

04-24-2003, 07:49 AM

It is also common that the sifu himself has trained in more than one style. it is VERY common, in fact.

Suntzu

04-24-2003, 07:51 AM

"Don’t do what I did… seek what I sought…"
Coach Sonnon

Gold Horse Dragon

04-26-2003, 06:30 AM

Originally posted by chen zhen
It is also common that the sifu himself has trained in more than one style. it is VERY common, in fact.

I would not say it was 'very' common on the whole. Rather I would say an exchange of techniques was common.
For those who learned other styles and or exchanged techniques...they showed courtesy and respect by asking the Sifu of their main style...the Sifu who took them from a rank beginner to an advanced practitioner in the style, if he would mind if they studied this 'other' style.

GHD

chen zhen

04-26-2003, 02:24 PM

well, I mean like a tai chi instructor has often a history of training bagua/xingyi at the side, and a choy lee fut sifu can have practiced, say, hung gar at some time of his life. you will often hear this.

greendragon

04-26-2003, 03:00 PM

Sifu, can i go train with Bow Sim Mark ?

jmd161

04-26-2003, 08:42 PM

Originally posted by chen zhen
It is also common that the sifu himself has trained in more than one style. it is VERY common, in fact.

Not in all cases.

My sifu started Black Tiger at age 12.

He is now 53 or 54 yrs old ,and Black Tiger is the only style he's learned and the only one he has ever wanted to learn.

He has given me permission to learn other styles if i choose and i did not even ask him that question.My last sifu i feel kinda bad because i did not ask his permission before i started Black Tiger.I trained private classes with him and when i worked two jobs our schedules just did'nt line up for me to take private classes anymore.

If you've been with your sifu for sometime i was with him over 10yrs.I think it's proper to ask permission before you check out another style.

That's just my thoughts though.

jeff:)

chen zhen

04-27-2003, 01:09 AM

I didn't say it was all, and I didn't even say that it was a majority of sifu's that have trained in more than one style, I just said it was common.

SevenStar

04-27-2003, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by MasterKiller

How would you feel if you spent an enormous amount of time training someone to do something, only to find out they were going somewhere else to learn the exact same thing?

Your Sifu invests a lot of time and energy in you; the least you can do is ask him before going somewhere else to learn. I know a number of instructors who will call the previous Sifu when a student comes in the door, to see if that Sifu objects to them teaching his/her former student.

It's common courtesy. Plain and simple.

I don't agree. If you want to ask him, fine. But, should you HAVE to ask him? No. If I want to learn something, it's really not my sifu's decision on whether or not I should learn it. Case in point, I have some friends who train. They grapple, but it's just stuff they learned via trial and error, basically. When grappling, I eat their lunches. Their teacher is against bjj and prefers that they don't train it. I would NOT sacrifice my ground skills just because my teacher doesn't want me to train in bjj...

As far as your sifu investing alot of time and energy into you, in most cases, you are investing hard earned dinero into him...

What your sifu should do, IMO, is offer advice on what you are learning, if you do decide to ask him. For example, I train in BJJ, SC and Judo. I called my SC teacher (Who is also a black belt holder in Judo) for tournament advice. My judo instructor will show me his way of doing things when I use a technique I learned in bjj that differs from the judo way of doing it. In BJJ, I use Judo throws and takedowns, and groundwork I learned in Judo. I freely share it with the BJJ guys. An open network - constant exchange of information - That's what it's all about.

Gold Horse Dragon

04-27-2003, 08:42 PM

Originally posted by SevenStar

I don't agree. If you want to ask him, fine. But, should you HAVE to ask him? No.

Stongly disagree. Why?...common courtesy, manners and etiquette...something traditional CMA is know for. It also builds discipline, a quality needed by all martial artists. If you do not want to give this to your Sifu...then do not take advantage of his teachings either.

GHD

HuangKaiVun

04-27-2003, 09:05 PM

I'm all for students studying with as many quality instructors as they can, but there's the practical element of TIME.

Wouldn't it be a bit tough to train in more than one school at once?

Even if a person were a full-time martial artist of the highest capability, he'd still have the logistical battle of getting to class and then putting the right kind of temporal/physical/mental capital into it.

I never studied with more than one teacher at once because I had enough trouble remembering what that one teacher was trying to tell me.

That said, I don't have any problem with any of my own students going off and learning from other teachers.

Some of my students are going into the Armed Forces and I'm looking forward to them to seeing whatever they pick up in the service.

SevenStar

04-27-2003, 10:58 PM

Originally posted by Gold Horse Dragon

Stongly disagree. Why?...common courtesy, manners and etiquette...something traditional CMA is know for. It also builds discipline, a quality needed by all martial artists. If you do not want to give this to your Sifu...then do not take advantage of his teachings either.

GHD

Negative. That's not a respect issue. I Have all the respect in the world for all of my teachers, but didn't ask any of them before I began cross training. Do they care? Not at all. Actually, they are glad that I do, because that is more information for us to share. Now, I guess you can attribute it to a loyalty issue, but that's still separate from respect, and still doesn't necessarily hold true, as you can be loyal to whatever styles you are cross training in.

joedoe

04-27-2003, 11:03 PM

GHD & 7* - it also depends on your relationship with your sifu. If you are a normal paying student, then really you are free to do as you please as you are paying for the services of the sifu. However, if you are a closed-door student then maybe you should, out of courtesy, ask your sifu.

Ultimately it boils down to what the nature of your relationship with your sifu is.

Serpent

04-27-2003, 11:08 PM

I agree with JoeDoe on this one, except I don't think there's a maybe about it. As a closed door (or even an indoor) student, you represent your school and sifu. You owe him courtesy.

SevenStar

04-27-2003, 11:12 PM

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
I'm all for students studying with as many quality instructors as they can, but there's the practical element of TIME.

Wouldn't it be a bit tough to train in more than one school at once?

Even if a person were a full-time martial artist of the highest capability, he'd still have the logistical battle of getting to class and then putting the right kind of temporal/physical/mental capital into it.

I never studied with more than one teacher at once because I had enough trouble remembering what that one teacher was trying to tell me.

That said, I don't have any problem with any of my own students going off and learning from other teachers.

Some of my students are going into the Armed Forces and I'm looking forward to them to seeing whatever they pick up in the service.

Good post, and a good point. There are ways to compensate though:

1. Crosstrain in similar styles. If you are training in styles with similar principles, there may be less adjustment for you to have to make.

2. Crosstrain in completely different styles, i.e. striking and grappling. This will ensure that you will not have to worry with getting principles mixed up. If you are doing this, you'll have to really scrutinize your schedule to make sure you are putting in sufficient time to become proficient in your chosen styles.

To elaborate further, It may be okay to train in longfist and bjj, as you should have no problem cinfusing principle applications. It may also be okay to train say, bjj and judo, as some of the principles may be similar, leaving you less room for confusion. However, I would not train say TKD and muay thai, which are two striking styles with completely different principles and mechanics.

3. Have a firm grounding in one style before you crosstrain.

SevenStar

04-27-2003, 11:16 PM

yeah, I guess that can depend on the teacher, like the teacher I talked about earlier who's against bjj. But, I am indoor...

shaolinboxer

04-28-2003, 08:21 AM

I also think that we owe respect to the martial arts independent of the personalities that represent them. To repect the arts you need to explore them as you see fit.

Shaolin-Do

04-28-2003, 08:59 AM

I work extensively outside shaolin-do, Dont necessarily mention it to my sifu tho. Regardless of wheather or not its any of their business, a lot of sifu's will tend to get aggravated simply because they may think that you are not learning as much as you could from them because your still focused elsewhere... I have no problem working on 2 styles at once.
:)

MasterKiller

04-28-2003, 09:08 AM

OR

your Sifu may think you are not ready for the techniques you are going elsewhere to learn, which may be why he isn't teaching them to you in the first place. Patience is a large part of training.

I had been studying for 4 years before my Sifu began showing me any serious ground work. The fact is, I just wasn't ready to incorporate it into my stand-up routine, and he knew it.

Shaolin-Do

04-28-2003, 09:09 AM

"Actually, most guys can recognize these "ways" by the faint odor of Tuna"

MK....
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
filthy filthy filthy.
:)

MasterKiller

04-28-2003, 09:15 AM

uh...you copying your posts from other threads now?

Run out of original material?:D

Shaolin-Do

04-28-2003, 09:24 AM

no, that thread was just gone away.
Thought was a funny quote and put it here.

Ill never run out of original material, not as long as my crack dealer keeps trading me stolen blenders for 20$ rocks.

SevenStar

04-28-2003, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by MasterKiller
OR

your Sifu may think you are not ready for the techniques you are going elsewhere to learn, which may be why he isn't teaching them to you in the first place. Patience is a large part of training.

I had been studying for 4 years before my Sifu began showing me any serious ground work. The fact is, I just wasn't ready to incorporate it into my stand-up routine, and he knew it.

1. That's part of my point. If a person wants to learn groundwork now, that's entirely up to him. He knows what he can focus on sufficiently, and if he decides to train in more than one style, that's his choice. Using myself as an example, cross training has helped me immensely in everything I'm training in.

2. with the friends in question, they are black sashes in said school, red sashes when I grappled them last. My friend caught the sifu in a triangle choke. The groundwork there is minimal, as seems to be the case in many CMA schools.

MasterKiller

04-28-2003, 10:33 AM

My point is that my Sifu knew the ground techniques, yet had a valid reason for not showing me until I was ready.

When I asked him about groundfighting techniques, he told me he would show them to me when I had progressed far enough, so I was patient and learned them anyway.

If I had not asked, and went out on my own, it could have undermined the preparations he was taking to show me how to use the groundfighting techniques in conjunction with my stand-up style.

If he would have said he didn't know any ground fighting, then I could have asked his permission to seek that training elsewhere.

But without asking, I would not have known.

Gold Horse Dragon

04-28-2003, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by SevenStar

Negative. That's not a respect issue. I Have all the respect in the world for all of my teachers, but didn't ask any of them before I began cross training.

Not so. By not asking your Sifu/teacher, you showed him disrespect. If you do not respect someone, you will also tend to not show courtesy and manners and vice versa. All are leaves of the same tree.

GHD

shaolinboxer

04-28-2003, 12:26 PM

Interesting. I think the real problem is that too many of us have learned the pitfalls and limitatons of "loyalty". However, in an ideal worl in which benevolent and wise masters guide us through a lifetime a perfectly timed training, loyalty of this kind would be a virtue indeed.

I think the best way probably runs somewhere down the middle. Is there a possible compromise?