Gene I'm offended [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

NorthernMantis

08-11-2001, 03:43 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>But this is a cowardly argument to come from warriors. If your style dies with your generation, it is your fault. You cannot blame others for not passing down your tradition. [/quote]

Gene please tell me you didn't write this.Communism made kung fu illegal,killing kung fu practtioners,sendind them to jail where some commited suicide and as a result many had to flee,destroying part of their culture forever and you guys dare write this?It is a total slap on the face to the ones who had to deal with so much pain and oppresion.Also to the one's who try to strive to preserve what they have the best way they can.

I never stated I hated wu shu I just hate how the PRC promotes wu shu as the original art.I saw a documentation that was made in China and it said that kung fu is considered a ******* art to wu shu.Didn't the red guard also attack shaolin temple?In consequence shaolin monks were made to go out of secular life and were force to get married to women or die?

What are you guys trying to do?

I'm sorry to be rude but that was a very offensive statement.

"Always be ready"

GeneChing

08-14-2001, 07:47 PM

First of all the argument in question is such: "Many traditionalists are also intimidated by the direct impact Olympic Wushu will have upon their own arts. They fear it will overshadow their "real kungfu" and the "real kungfu" will die out. But this is a cowardly argument..." By posting only the statement without out the arguement, you do me a great disservice. I stand behind that statement. Bringing up the "communism made kungfu illegal" issue just muddles the point. I wasn't discussing the past, I was discussing the future. And even under communism, a warrior must understand his/her context.

It's easy to attack communism, especially from an American martial arts standpoint. When I first went to China coming from a traditional CMA background, I had a lot of predjudice. But PRC is not what we would paint it to be and the IOC's observation "works for China" is painfully accurate. HOpefully the Olypmics will increase understanding of China in the rest of the world. I'm sure that was the IOC's intention.

Not to digress too much, but the "commies killed kungfu" tale is oversimplified. Honestly, do you think government officials cared about that? It was about politics - those kungfu people that opposed PRC were oppressed, but those that aligned with PRC endured - what do you think Mao's bodyguards practiced? Study history - every Chinese dynasty crushed out the opposing military might of the previous one but these decisions where more about politics than kungfu vs. wushu. And kungfu still prevails, for the most part. The CR was terrible and horrible atrocities were committed against places like Shaolin, but just like Nazism, we must understand the origin. The evils were a result of suffering that preceded it. Obviously kungfu survived or we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

The name changes - the term "kungfu" has only been used for martial arts recently - wushu is actually more accurate but maintains a stigma for those who don't speak Chinese. In PRC, traditional wushu is not an oxymoron, so it really is a matter of perspective. But ultimately, Darwin prevails. It doesn't really matter what it is called - what works will thrive.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

NorthernMantis

08-15-2001, 07:12 AM

You do have some strong points and I've also wondered about Mao's men practicing kung fu but you seemed to not recognize the hardships that people had to go through.

I know that wu shu is more accurate but I was talking about the modern sports variant that we know of.Modern wu shu is till trying to be promoted as the original art and I have tapes that can confirm that.

bwt those arguments are not cowardly.

"Always be ready"

GeneChing

08-15-2001, 06:47 PM

As a shaolin disciple, I am fully aware of the hardships of the CR. I've interviewed the old monks, spent time with them, and know the hardships they had to face - at least the ones they admit to - so don't tell me I don't recognize this.

But if you look at my original statement more carefully once more, you'll see that this was not the issue at all. Certainly the facing the hardships or the CR over 3 decades ago was not cowardly. Traditional survived by letting itself be overshadowed by wushu for a while, and that is true bravery. Just like the monks, traditional stylists went underground. Now traditional has reemerged in the PRC as the root of wushu. The party line has changed and the traditional is honored.

My comment is about the fear of not being in the spotlight - this is cowardice. Who cares about the spotlight? That is just vanity. If, after the Olympics, the whole world only knows wushu, that has no effect on our practice of traditional kungfu and its no reason to abandon it. Traditional kungfu isn't about the spotlight - wushu is. Even hidden, obscured by wushu, kungfu does not die and it is cowardly to fear this.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

NorthernMantis

08-15-2001, 07:55 PM

It's not that I want kung fu to be on the spotlight,well partly.Heck I like it this way with only a few people knowing kung fu.I just don't want the tradidtion to be lost.

Seeing a kung fu style fade away is like watching a brother die.

"Always be ready"

GeneChing

08-16-2001, 10:07 AM

If your a true kungfu man, you'll never see kungfu die, unless your looking in a mirror when you meet your maker knowing that you failed to pass it on.

I could die right now knowing that I didn't break the chain. Some of my students (and some of my readers) carry the fire. And hopefully, my date with my maker is still far away. I'm working hard to document what I can, maintain my practice, and pass down the tradition. I can only hope you are doing the same.

I could never watch a brother die without doing all I could to help comfort him. But all things are impermanent...

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

Crimson Phoenix

08-16-2001, 10:35 AM

But still, Gene, you cannot deny the fact that many training methods or traditional styles/forms have died in the past (OK, sometimes it was because the master prefered to take it with him in the tomb if he hadn't find someone worthy of being taught but still)...aside from that, you are right, it is our duty to master things in order to pass them on after so the flame burns for ever...

Stumblefist

08-16-2001, 06:29 PM

"Not to digress too much, but the "commies killed kungfu" tale is oversimplified. Honestly, do you think government officials cared about that? It was about politics - those kungfu people that opposed PRC were oppressed, but those that aligned with PRC endured"
This is not true. Comummunism exterminated kungfu for 2 reasons: First to simply eliminate all other organizations, no matter what they were, because simply other social organizations are a threat to having one totalitarian organization. Even a simple martial arts club is a threat. There is no alliance, just the government and all else is to be exterminated. There simple is a government org now, for the purposes of promoting nationalism externally and internally and of course to get money from foreigners, it is a big cash cow, along with tourism.
Second reason was to exterminate the past, all of it, to kill all links with outside world and to kill all TRADITIONAL CHINESE culture in order to kill all threats of influence to the communist party, so that the party will be the only infuence in a person's life. During the cultural revolution simply practicing kungfu, you were the enemy, there was no alliance to join, and some who refused to stop had their leg tendons cut

"And kungfu still prevails, for the most part."
kungfu prevails for the most part because it has been preserved OUTSIDE of china NOT inside.

"The CR was terrible and horrible atrocities were committed against places like Shaolin, but just like Nazism, we must understand the origin. The evils were a result of suffering that preceded it."
Mao and the surviving members of the communist party were the only origins of the cultural revolution. The cultural revolution was engineered by Mao and his chief of Secret police, Kang Sheng, in order to get rid of Mao's political enemies WITHIN the communist part. The popular disruption stirred up by Mao was a smokescreen meant to disrupt the power of the ordinary police force and the army. Under this cover of disturbance Kang Sheng arrested and executed 100's of thousands of high-ranking communist memmeber ending with the assination of Lin Biao and his wife in Shanghai. The next day Mao annonce that Lin Biao had crashed in an airplane "trying to escape" China ("shot while trying to escape" - sound familiar?). A short time later Mao annnounced that the CR was over , adding that some people's heads "had become too swollen", failing to mention all of those others who lost theirs :) . The suffering that preceded was during and was after the CR was Mao and the communist party.

"But ultimately, Darwin prevails. It doesn't really matter what it is called - what works will thrive."
The communist part keeps Wushu artifically alive for its own purposes of fostering amoung which are fostering nationalism and hatred of other peoples and countries.
When communism dies we will really see what will endure and what will die. We will seee what Darwin will select, an artifically pumped up art or an art maintained all over the world by many countries and individuals, in itself and for itself.
Gene, you parrot communist govenment propaganda quite well, yet i think you really don't know nor care whether the CCP is a jellyfish or a the curse of the mummy. You just think that somehow you are defending CHINA an The CHINESE PEOPLE and YOURSELF. None of these things are the CCP, and you cannot be a mainland chinese person, no matter what you do, you already "know too much", no one can go back to naivity although you do try hard. You should accept that you are not chinese but a human being like the rest of us.
CCP TV says " Our party, our people, our china, our chinese". they try to put all these things as one so that people can't separate them and think critically. So any critical thought just results in a nationalistic response. Therefore no growth. The key to freedom is to DIFFERENTIATE. What i am, what im not. This leads to critical thought and questioning alternatives - poison for dictatorships.
No matter how many medals China wins at the Olympics, it doesn't give YOU any glory whatsoever in the real world, only in your own delusion (which it obviously does).

[This message was edited by stumblefist on 08-17-01 at 09:48 AM.]

GeneChing

08-16-2001, 08:05 PM

cp: True, many styles will suffer and more will die. Don't ask me why. It's all about impermanence. Who knows how many styles died with the last dynasty, and the one before that, and before that? Don't be too attached.

sf: The CR, although devastating, was not effective. Tradition has survived, just as it survived the rapacious attacks of the previous dynasties. PRC is the latest emperor, made villainous by our western "deomcratic" perspective. Don't get me wrong now - I don't support communism, but it works for China. Given the magnitude of China, there must be draconian rule. It's so different than here. I just play devil's advocate when Americans criticize China because we are such a spoiled culture sometimes.

As for your last paragraph, I'm not sure what your getting at exactly.... "hatred of other people's" "jellyfish or a curse of the mummy" "not chinese but human being like the rest of us" Just what are you trying to say?

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

Anarcho

08-16-2001, 08:15 PM

I think Gene makes a valid point that people often neglect when considering the phenomenon of totalitarian socialist regimes. Take the two biggies, China and the USSR. What was there before communism? Were they hotbeds of democracy? No, they weren't. In fact, in both cases the previous governments were worse. Both countries have long-standing traditions of authoritarian rule peppered with the occasional atrocity. Both countries continue to operate in the same or a similar way. Even in the new, democratic Russia military personnel were captured on camera injecting a grieving relative with a sedative in order to stop her asking embarrassing questions.

It's not a modern phenomenon in either of those countries, and it's not something that'll go away soon. It's the way government has always worked there. There will have to be some major cultural shifts in both countries before they get to the level of individual freedom we're at now, in my opinion. Likewise, there will have to be some major cultural shifts for us before we can reorganise ourselves in a more egalitarian way.

Stumblefist

08-18-2001, 05:25 PM

Gene, i think you are just guessing about Mao's bodyguards aren't you ? you are just exercising your imagination. For all you know they were traied in the army in a special forces type unit inherited military training, special probably but not necessarily a kung-fu art?
I CAN tell you for sure who trained his counterpart bodyguards. i.e. Chian Kai-Shek and his son and onwards... it was specifically the Northern Mantis Society in Taiwan i trained with. They taught the secret police and the palace guard, bodyguards. These were the traditional masters mostly from Shandong province, the inheritance being several Mantis's Secret Gate, Six Harmaony and Baji Quan....as relayed to me by Zhou Gao Shan leader of the largest and oldest and most respectable and most invisible noncommercial society there , the Wutang being the commercial offshoot from Liu Yun Qiao's legacy.
Well, i'm such a blabbermouth, but it doesn't matter: you need a barrel of luck to try to penetrate that society.
.......................................
"Now traditional has reemerged in the PRC as the root of wushu."

What's this about traditional being "the root" ? in China? Are you practicing Newspeak again? The best hope for that is that communism will die soon because the few that still do know some traditional are very old. If you open up any telephone book in any American City you will find more traditional kungfu than in alll of China.
Please name some masters and styles and their inheritance, their schools, number of students, locations? (exception of Chen Tai). You can't because all of that is if not illegal just downright dangerous.
I am a Crane Specialist. I went to HK to research my art, but the lineage all dead and no links to GZ. I found another Crane specialist in HK. He just SNEERED when i mentioned looking for Crane in Guangzhou. China is a virtual traditional desert.

"Without water there would be no fish"

Crimson Phoenix

08-18-2001, 06:43 PM

yah...you'd better go to Taiwan or Malaysia if you want some Crane...

Gene, indeed I try not to be too attached as you stated it, but still it kinda ****es me off to think that these treasure of chinese culture in particular and human civilisation in general will die...I don't think Darwinism can apply fully there, it is not survival of the fittest...some very good styles disappeared (for example I'm sure taiji spear kicked ass, but now all that is left is scarce technique sequences...) for reasons other than their lack of efficiency...I guess the best styles required such a hard work or deep understanding that they eventually faded away...in a pessimistic view, I do not think it is solely the communism's fault, but our whole money-oriented society, or just our whole time: we just cannot train traditionaly (ie "like back in the days") and hard enough if at the same time we have to earn a living in our societies, in Beijing, New-York or Paris...
It's funny but one taoist priest wrote back in the days that one of the conditions to reach enlightenment was to be rich...since if you had to earn a living you couldn't give all your time to spiritual cultivation...I guess it is the same for gong fu...but as I like to say, the shame isn't in failing, it is in not giving it our best...
Take care Gene!

Phoenix

[This message was edited by Crimson Phoenix on 08-19-01 at 09:52 AM.]

Stumblefist

08-19-2001, 06:51 AM

"sf: The CR, although devastating, was not effective. Tradition has survived, just as it survived the rapacious attacks of the previous dynasties."
No! the cultural revolution WAS effective.The purpose was to eliminate Mao's political enemies in the CCP and it WAS successful. As soon as his enemies were executed by Kang Sheng, he called it off. All the social disruption that got all the publicity was just the smokescreen and teh means to disrupt the nornmal power structure during the executions.
Traditional kungfu and traditional EVERYTHING has been under attack for the entire period of communist rule and still is. It is not allowed to have competition with the chinese government, all culture organizations inheritances are threats.

"PRC is the latest emperor, made villainous by our western "deomcratic" perspective. ....I don't support communism, but it works for China. Given the magnitude of China, there must be draconian rule."
No! the PRC is not an emperrorship it is a modern totalitarian state 1000 times worse than any emperorship. It does not "work for" china, it "works on" china, feeds on it like a leech. Even Deng Xiao Ping admited china was 30 years behind modern times because of Communism. That is the nature of communism,: to sacrifice the country and the people to maintain power for the leaders.
What works in China now is capitalism, and what the leaders are desperately afraid of now is truth and information and ideas. They have spent 50 years wiping people's minds clean and killing anybody who knew anything. Now the information explosion is threatening their security. Which is why there was a massive internet crackdown this year.Revealing not only NEWS but "Ecomonic secrets" is a crime for foreigners.
Can they hold on? Who knows? But i find that telling enslaved people that dictatorship works for them is insulting to the human race.

"Without water there would be no fish"

Stumblefist

08-19-2001, 07:21 AM

"Given the magnitude of China, there must be draconian rule."
---------------------------------------------
This is a bogus justification given by the totalitarian dictatorship of the CCP as to why China needs to be enslaved.
Tell me how is this proven? It is total nonsense. Russia is still Russia, America is still America etc, etc, they are large and diverse regions..
If regions are not ****geneous then they will split and if they are, they will stay intact. It is the natural and peaceful and prosperous order of things.
The fact is, without totalitarian rule and the greedy territoriality of the CCP, certain countries and regions such as Tibet, Hong Kong, (Taiwan is already independent) and the Moslem provinces will certainly take their independence as they deservedly should.
There is no moral justification can be no excuse for the slavery of human beings anywhere and anytime. Human beings everywhere deserve to be free and to take their chances with freedom.
The chinese thought Communism offered them freedom. They found out too late it was not so. It is the God that failed, the whole world knows this. The case has not yet been tried in China. They have not been given the chance.
--------------------------
(Memo: Dear Citizen,
Because the country you live in is very large, it has been decided by me (the guy who owns all the guns) that you need to be ruled draconianly. Please go to the nearest post office to pick up your chains and your Gulag cell number.
yours truly,
# 1 state dictator and your personal god)
---------------------------------------------

"Without water there would be no fish"

Stumblefist

08-19-2001, 07:41 AM

"I think Gene makes a valid point that people often neglect when considering the phenomenon of totalitarian socialist regimes. Take the two biggies, China and the USSR. What was there before communism? Were they hotbeds of democracy? No, they weren't. In fact, in both cases the previous governments were worse."

WRONG on both counts. The chinese revolution of 1911 was based on democratic ideas and the ideas on Dr. Sun Yat Sen. He founded the Chinese republic based on the 3 principles of the people.
Communism was a competing idea and it also looked like freedom to the people...The communist manifesto "workers of the world unite, You have nothing to lose but your chians.
All the communist idealists were betrayed.
Actually the USSR and China were hotbeds of revolutionary and freedom seeking ideas.
I would have rather taken my chances on the Qing Dynasty or the Czars rather than Stalin and Mao. The exterminations by both these people have been the most complete and thorough in History.

"Both countries have long-standing traditions of authoritarian rule peppered with the occasional atrocity. Both countries continue to operate in the same or a similar way. ...It's the way government has always worked there."

Another bogus agrgument (and racist) for a justification as to why human beings need to be enslaved.
...................
Dear Human Being,
It has come to my attention that your ancestors were slaves 2000 years ago. Even your ancestors were slaves 100 years ago. Therefore (since i got the guns anyway) please consider yourself and all others of your race my slave.

your truly
your dictator
-------------------------------------------
The truth is ideas can change countries and the world very VERY quickly. That is another misguided idea that things linger and need long gradual change. The dynasties were thrown off forever in 1911. Communism originaly came on like an explosion.

"Without water there would be no fish"

[This message was edited by stumblefist on 08-19-01 at 10:52 PM.]

Stumblefist

08-19-2001, 11:25 AM

"but our whole money-oriented society, or just our whole time: we just cannot train traditionaly (ie "like back in the days") and hard enough if at the same time we have to earn a living in our societies, in Beijing, New-York or Paris..."

Not true...Taiwan and Japan have traditional societies with deep involvement of students that are thouroughly integrated with the pace and business of modern life. As for instance taiwan university students will take their holidays 3 weeks in winter and 5 weeks in summer full time in temple mountain training. The rest of the year is not at all slack for them, full of events regualr training, outings, seminars and it is a process that contuinues all through all the stages of their life, with their teachers and coaches emphasising both a committment to social success and development of the art. These societies function as true brotherhoods within the larger society guiding the members in all aspects of their life (somewhat cultish).

"Without water there would be no fish"

diego

08-19-2001, 04:39 PM

not only do we have "HEY-GENE"POSTS :D
WE NOW HAVE 'gene im disgruntled posts.

:confused: :p

NorthernMantis

08-19-2001, 04:47 PM

lol!

"Always be ready"

Crimson Phoenix

08-19-2001, 05:37 PM

Stumble, you are right, but 5 and 3 weeks in a year will never be as good as a couple of hours everyday...if it was enough to train 8 weeks a year to become a master, then we'd know it by now I guess...plus you're talking students...students and working persons are different (I know, unfortunately I ceased being a student not too long ago heheheheh), and you cannot stay students for ever...plus Taiwan and Japan are really not good examples forr me, especially Japan...can you imagine it's the only country in the world that has a syndrome of sudden death by overworking (karoshi)??
I know I'm sounding like "he never agrees" but really that's what I think deep down inside: modern societies in the world wherever they are carry values and function in a way that will slowly make people unable/unwilling to preserve TCMA like they should be...
I hope you are right though, it's a better view than mine ;)

Stumblefist

08-19-2001, 06:07 PM

Crimson: Just to add a little, that was 3 and 5 week intensives in addition to daily practice. Not 3 to 4 hrs a day but at least 1 hr morning plus regular spaced practice 3 to 4 times/wk in the evenings plus weekend seminars etc.
Also once basics are learned and absorbed that stage is complete and constant full time is not so necessary.
The practice is really integrated with daily life. I think it can only happen in those countries where the social organization is tightly knit, like those students live on campus in a tightly coheseive social group even before the martial arts and the social cohesiveness continues past schooling. Those societies operate on a "wave" system with older waves looking after newer waves which amount to a life-long involvement. I think the society in Taiwan that i know preserves a traditional intact in the form of a brotherhood. I've heard similar stories about Japan.
--------------
Diego - Gene's posts are propaganda posts
Mine are counter-propaganda posts.
It's a gruelling task, but it needs to be done.
As such i must also counter your propaganda to label me "digruntled".
..............................................

"Without water there would be no fish"

GeneChing

08-19-2001, 07:53 PM

It pleases me to keep you up at nights ;)

anarcho: Human culture has a violent past and only those who live sheltered lives believe that it is a peaceful present. But we are making progress, I think. That's starts with each of us.

stumble: My, my, you are really on me lately. Well, whatever pleases you.
Consider this - propaganda and counter-propaganda are just two edges of the propaganda sword. Your counter-propaganda is just as much propaganda, if not more, than mine, especially so since it is so reactionary. But keep it coming though, I'm enjoying the attention.
I'm sure you view yourself as a man with a mission, but couldn't you have a more positive effect by working towards that mission instead of shooting down my work? If you speak the truth, than it will prevail, never mind what I might say. This discussion is quickly becoming more about me and you than it is about politics or policies.

crimson: All traditional martial arts is under the shadow of the gun. That's what I mean by Darwinism. Does it make sense to training like we do when modren technologoy makes these skills obsolete? MA must evolve, and it has been doing so. Now it is more about health, recreation, art and enlightenment. Some of the traditional ways must fade because they are too rigorous to maintain. It's sad, but such is the wheel of change.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

Anarcho

08-19-2001, 10:14 PM

I agree 100%, Gene.

Crimson Phoenix

08-19-2001, 11:51 PM

Gene, how could I not agree with such enlightened words?? *shines his shoes* hehehehehhe
But still, as a biologist, I must say that the idea of Darwinism itself has to evolve: our social evolution is so fast that our biological evolution cannot follow and it's a great threat (when you have the glandular apparatus of Cro-Magnon but the red button for atomic bombs instead of sticks and stones it gets really dangerous!)...what I mean by this is that guns are really the opposite of darwinism: any dumba$$ can pull a trigger, survival of the fittest is not a good concept anymore, or just at some levels...
On the other hand indeed, change is the only constant here, and wise men shouldn't fight against it...gawd,now that IS an interesting subject!!! :)

Silumkid

08-20-2001, 12:00 AM

Don't take no guff, brutha! =)

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

GeneChing

08-20-2001, 02:22 AM

cp: Hmm, updating Darwin, yes it certainly has to be redefined with our modern technological advances.

a & slk: Thanks for your support!

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

Stumblefist

08-20-2001, 07:08 AM

"Consider this - propaganda and counter-propaganda are just two edges of the propaganda sword. Your counter-propaganda is just as much propaganda,"
No, you are working for and promoting organizations which are destructive of human beings and art in itself. You have ulterior interests. You have already stated the primary reason being your ethnic attachment and that fantasy-role you have paid out for yourself in the world of MA. You are the voice of "Radio Shaolin" and "Radio Beijing".

I consider human beings and art in themselves and for themsleves. I don't have any causes to promote except what comes from myself. I believe in truth and freedom not propaganda. I don't believe everything is propaganda and interpretation. Suffering, grief, disaster, failure in art: all are real. If you want i will say debunking propaganda instead of counter-propaganda. When you say it is a sunny day in Tiananmen and nothing happened there, i am just pointing out where the bullet holes where repaired.

"I'm sure you view yourself as a man with a mission, but couldn't you have a more positive effect by working towards that mission instead of shooting down my work? If you speak the truth, than it will prevail, never mind what I might say."
No, my truth will not prevail for many reasons, one of which is that i am not going to devote full time to this. I am only "sharpening" in argumentation. And also doing some small learning in probing the psychology here of nationalism, ethnic attachment, racism and the psychological barriers that the general population haver in understanding their world society. The postive work that i am doing in this vein posting is studying reactions to certain contfrontations and presentations of truth.

Please let me correct that impression i gave as having a mission. This is just a series of postings. Enjoy away.

The solution to some large problems in CMA is to cut China out of CMA and be independent (country and race independent) Thus the "C" meaning chinese-derived, not "chinese-owned".. I don't think people are ready for this in their thinking, although i think it is a natural process and will happen over the next 50 to 200 years. It will take a long while. However if some myths were debunked and people could understand racial attachment and chinese culture more clearly, the process might speed up.

"Without water there would be no fish"

diego

08-20-2001, 07:22 AM

the christians like how do you call your selves gods and just like i hate you you are the devil..the 5% is just like your stupid.
then the christboy comes in all i believe in one faith blah blah and the reason thiers animosity in this world is lack of tolerance etc blah.
realitys like how you gonna say like,my god loves you but you wont listen to me so i hate you but my god loves you so listen to etc blah.

I believe in truth and freedom not propaganda.

and that fantasy-role you have paid"paved" out for yourself in the world of MA.

so what is your truth are you athiest bhuddhist
hinduism judaism olschoollism??what.

unless your bhuddist and you are talking on known facts from your study of the inner workings of the monks?! at present day landmass of ST.
imo your out of face

Stumblefist

08-20-2001, 07:27 AM

Interesting points diego.
It's nice to see a refreshing point of view occassionallly. :)

"Without water there would be no fish"

Crimson Phoenix

08-20-2001, 11:03 AM

****it diego, you're wrinkling my neurons...geez, I hardly get the point :D

NorthernMantis

08-21-2001, 06:27 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>the christians like how do you call your selves gods and just like i hate you you are the devil..the 5% is just like your stupid.
then the christboy comes in all i believe in one faith blah blah and the reason thiers animosity in this world is lack of tolerance etc blah.
realitys like how you gonna say like,my god loves you but you wont listen to me so i hate you but my god loves you so listen to etc blah [/quote]

Diego what's up with that?I have seen bhuddists that are just as worse and do you see me slandering bhuddism?I had a Laos friend who was bhuddist and he told me a story that at his temple he met some magician who showed him an egg with a guy inside that told him his real name o_0?,you're religion isn't prefect either or at least what you view is perfect.All religions have people who follow it fully and those who don't.That comment was really offensive and made you look like an ignorant jerk :mad: .I suggest you think about what you say next time and don't give me that I was voicing my oppinion line because I just voiced mines.

One more thing God loves you,Jesus loves you, and we all love you.Oh and I forgive you, we all make mistakes. :) Seriously I do.

"Always be ready"

diego

08-21-2001, 06:36 AM

im speaking on jimmy swaggert?? i remember as a youth sneaking into a penthouse mag and he was busted with a prostitute and hes still on tv promotin his thang.....

im not like that i study all philosophy and hold that heck if it makes you a beeter person more power to you/........because nothing can be proven!!!!

Stumblefist

08-21-2001, 12:20 PM

Gene, you parrot communist govenment propaganda quite well, yet i think you really don't know nor care whether the CCP is a jellyfish or "the curse of the mummy." You just think that somehow you are defending CHINA an The CHINESE PEOPLE and YOURSELF. None of these things are the CCP, and you cannot be a mainland chinese person, no matter what you do, you already "know too much", no one can go back to naivity although you do try hard. You should accept that you are not chinese but a human being like the rest of us."
"CCP TV says " Our party, our people, our china, our chinese". they try to put all these things as one so that people can't separate them and think critically." So any critical thought just results in a nationalistic response"
....................
"As for your last paragraph, I'm not sure what your getting at exactly.... "jellyfish or a curse of the mummy" "not chinese but human being like the rest of us" Just what are you trying to say?

Gene Ching
...............................
I can see you need it spelled out in triplicate. This level is just too difficult or actually non-existent for you. When people have a cultural attachment, then can't think beyond the hard-wired picture of haveing their ego identified wiht something else. I tried to pin GLW down on his attitudes exactly similar to yours and i just got incoherent responses and he drifted off. So it's obvious that self-awareness is not there, just the ego-defense.
You spout CCP propaganda but you genuinely don't know or care what the CCP is. You only think you are defending "Chinese People" against attack and against "Americans". You have said as much pereviously. You think that you are "CHINESE", you are not, you are a human being just like everyone else. You think that if China The Country can be glorifies, then YOU are glorified. Why don't you get your own glory in yourself instead of looking for it in an illusion at the expense of others.
Now if Chana wins gold medals with Wushu, i'm not going to think Chinese people everywhere are glorious. I asm not racist. What i am going to think is that the chinese government is doing it's usual lying and cheating stuff promoting a rigged game with lots of propaganda as a smokescreen to hide the double-dealing.
Now i suppose if the Swedes should conquer Russia again, i should swell up with a sense of pride. That would be as senseless as your motivation and attachment.
And what is this logic that says if there is something in society that is negative, then you have to feel unhappy and leave the country? That is like a kid's attitude. It's terrible that you have grown to adulthood and cannot put away your childhood stories. So you have to invent an artifical illusion of the world around you and propagate it on others to protect your own weak ego. Then you have to ignore the real lives of real people because you can't accept reality.
The world's a nasty place, grow up, deal with it and be happy.

"Without water there would be no fish"

Crimson Phoenix

08-21-2001, 02:11 PM

CMA are chinese and should stay that way...period...CMA were borrn in China, grew in China, thrived in China, they are the embodiment of the chinese mind in a way...I'm not chinese, but you cannot steal the roots of a tree without killing it...Ed Parker created American kenpo karate, I do not want to ever see someone come up with american (or french, or whatever) gong fu...gong fu is and will stay chinese, case closed...growing as a unique race, the human race, and building a necessary global village doesn't mean we have to rip or burry or denaturate our own particular cultures or steal other's...now, when I read ads about "become a kung fu balck belt in one week" or "this is the ultimate style and you can master it for 1000 bucks", sometimes I wonder if capitalistic societies don't kill real TCMA as fast as the PRC is said to (and the guy up there knows I can't stand PRC's show wushu)...
Anyway...as everytime humans are dealt with, there will always be one version per person, and no one will be able to clearly demonstrate who's right...

danny from miami

08-21-2001, 04:34 PM

........because nothing can be proven!!!!

actually alotta things from the bible have been proven and things that it says will happen are already happening

NorthernMantis

08-21-2001, 05:06 PM

Diego--

My apologies for jumping the gun.

CRimson Phoenix <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I do not want to ever see someone come up with american (or french, or whatever) gong fu...gong fu is and will stay chinese [/quote]

I tottaly agree

Danny from Miami--

I'm on to you....I might make it to class today.Later.

"Always be ready"

diego

08-21-2001, 06:55 PM

like even the bigbang you cant really prove to me or him or you that it occured....you can mathematikaly equate things but how can you really prove??....your instruments might be jumbled :)

GeneChing

08-21-2001, 07:00 PM

Wow, stumble, I've been looking for a good DJ name. That's awesome! Thanks & praises!

Cultural pride is not racism. Diversity is not racism. CMA belongs to the world now, but we cannot cut off it's roots. Stop trying to play the race card, it's a bad card here.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

Stumblefist

08-22-2001, 07:21 AM

Conversely Racism is not Cultural Pride.
Racism is racism.

I am not playing the racist card, i am exposing you and the others in playing it and revealing its consequences and the hidden motivations.

"I do not want to ever see someone come up with american (or french, or whatever) gong fu...gong fu is and will stay chinese"

You can see, it is others who are still playing the race card without awareness, without explict declaration, even understanding the consequences to themselves, currently or for the future. CMA means derived not owned". It now belongs to human beings and not races or countries. Kungfu is no longer specifically CHINESE "cultutral pride", it belongs to all human beings pride now , chinese no longer have ownership. The roots are historical, the best art of kungfu is no longer in China.

You want to stop me for saying the word "racism." It is because manipluation of others works under ignorance and darkness. In the light of day the worms will die.

All of my arguments still stand unopposed by any logical argumentation.

"Without water there would be no fish"

Crimson Phoenix

08-22-2001, 11:06 AM

Stumble, you quote my words alright, but forgot to add the part where I say "I AM NOT CHINESE"...hard to speak about racism, if I were chinese maybe, but I'm a white guy...OK, I have mongolian ancestors 4-5 generations above me, but it doesn't count...I'm a white guy claiming CMA were chinese in the past and should stay that way...why do you think so many masters say it's good to learn about chinese culture when you practice gong fu? It's not because they want to enrrole us in some sect or turn us yellow (don't take offense in these word, please, I don't mean it like that but I can't translate my french exactly)...it's just that chinese culture/spirit/mind always managed to infuse and color everything in china...even the mandchourian or mongolian invaders establishing dynasties in China ended up following han customs, dressing like chinese, and even sometimes taking chinese names...it was the same with gong fu, it's chinese roots are so deep and important that the day you try to take the chinese part out of gong fu it's like taking the fragrance and roots of a flower: eventually it withers, fades and dies...
CMA is derived from chinese thought, if you want...but if you respect it, you'll bind your spirit to a knowledge of this culture, you'll be killing CMA if you try to make it anything other than chinese...CMA as I said are an embodiment of chinese mind over the milleniums, if you respect them, you have to taake them with the chinese part that is their roots...you respect more a rose if you let it live in it's soil than if you cut it to put it in a vase.
What the hell bothers you with chinese cultural pride and gong fu?? If you're not happy with it, why don't you try boxing or karate (well, if japanese cultural pride doesn't bothers you, that is)...let's steal St Patrick away from the Irish, let's stop celebrating 14th of july in France because we happen to be the only country celebrating it, let's even take away your 4th of july...cultural pride is what makes a culture able to stand in time, because if no one is proud of their culture, then eventually it fades away...Why do we have to turn it into a race issue?? Culture isn't race and reciprocally...If I say CMA are chinese, I'm not being racist against the non chinese (which once again I belong to), I'm just aknowledging the fact that it was developped by chinese mind and that if you take that away, it will become an ersatz, a ple copy with no soul...only flowers, no roots...like "I can't believe it's not gong fu"...is it what you want?
You are talking in your post about "consequences for the future"...well, your ideas are the ones that can lead to emptying gong fu of its essence in the future...
Logic has nothing to do here, logic is a poor factor when you deal with human affairs...if logic worked in society, the economists and politicians would have a much better time making things work.
And once again, this all comes from the mouth of A WHITE GUY (and all the girls say I'm pretty fly, for a white guy :D )

Stumblefist

08-22-2001, 12:17 PM

"I'm a white guy claiming CMA were chinese in the past and should stay that way..."
That is racism.Probably the worst kind, sort of an unaware kind.

"CMA is derived from chinese thought,"
to be more precise from chinese historical culture, not chinese race nor current chinese culture. What that is is a MENTAL concept "CHINESE-DERIVED". What it has been derived form no longer exists, only exists in the carrier whoever that is i.e. no longer CHINESE RACE
That is historical. This TIME is NOW. What a world citizen inherits is a cultural-set which they own TO THEMSELVES and not to CHINES RACE or CHINESE-OWNED.
We need a new terminology to eliminate the inheitance of racism in order to think properly about not only kungfu but many cross-cultural derivations. It should be no longer CMA but WCMA World Chines Martial Arts, well that doesn't sound too good, but the problem is the words we use themselves are inherited racism.

"it's chinese roots are so deep and important that the day you try to take the chinese part out of gong fu it's like taking the fragrance and roots of a flower: eventually it withers, fades and dies"
No romansce of any past needs be lost. but the past is only the PAST. Kungfu will not die it will develop a new history everywhere else. The roorts ar NOT chinese RACE, that is racist, the roots are body-art-cultural, that is race-independent, coiuntry-independent. I am fully awar of every inheritance, including NO idiom-to-idiom translations in language. However there is no barrier because culture is miodifiable, things such as new and exact idioms will be invented in other languages.
Further, i am not advocating anything, i don't have to. I can already see the process. It is long but it finally ends to kil the racial domination.

"Why do we have to turn it into a race issue??"
Take a look at your own post. You have turned it into a race issue. I am exposing the hidden assumtions in people's thinking and proposing eliminating the racism.

"What the hell bothers you with chinese cultural pride and gong fu??"
Chinese cultural pride has nothing to do with kungfu. The kungfu in America does not glorify CHINESE, it does not glorify GENE, it does not glorify the commies, it does not glorify the beijing olympic team, it only glorifies the justly deserving practicioners and inheritors of that art.
"If you're not happy with it, why don't you try boxing or karate"
So now you are telling me that i can't practice kung fu because it is not mine and is owned by the Chinese? I'm perfectly happy with kungfu ond with MY kungfu. There is no SOB racist going to come along and tell me that MY kungfu is THEIR cultural pride and belongs to them and glorigfies them. It is now MINE, belongs to ME, I am a full inheritor of more than 2 systems, they are now MINE.
Let me ask you because you haven't fully understood what it means to call CMA as chinese owned. In that case you have no right to practice it, no right to inherit it, no right to develop it.
Come to China and you will find out that is exactly what is the Chinese attitude and Chines Idea. Many of you have already found that out in your Wuguans when you found out after 10 years that your master has given you the scraps and fed his chinese students the meat and bones. You are the clown, the foil so that Genes and Chinese racists can feel good giving themselves medals. So long as you have the slightest weakness in this area guys like gene will take full advantage of you confusion. And it is a consufusion between cultural pride and ethnic prejudice. Cultural pride is harmless
Kungfu does not belong to Chinese people, to the communist party, to Gene, to the current mainland population (god forbid! they only know what's in the movies) nor even to the best masters (few that they are) thhat do remain in China. It belongs to whoever practices it.

This issue also exist in Japanese Martial arts where the racism is much more obvious and the consequences more obvious such as there can be noone of the higher ranks in some large Karate and Aikido Societies. If you study that situation you can see the same solution has been developed, all the knowledge has been transferred to the WEST and independentcenters have been established. They are paying less and less attention to the racists in Tokyo and when they are finally independent they will still pay the past homage but they will cut them out of the reality. It is a natural process.
The commies created a Deformed Wushu Art. A consequence of giving them ownership is to spread that garbage sport all over the world as definitive kungfu.

"Without water there would be no fish"

Stumblefist

08-22-2001, 01:08 PM

"Cultural pride is not racism. Diversity is not racism. CMA belongs to the world now, but we cannot cut off it's roots."
"Stop trying to play the race card, it's a bad card here."
What happend to Voltaire and the right to speak etc.etc.?. I think i have just exposed the beast of racism under the smiling mask.

"Without water there would be no fish"

Crimson Phoenix

08-22-2001, 02:54 PM

"Come to China"...hahahahha who tells you I haven't?? What do you know about my own knowledge of chinese and their culture? NOTHING so don't even try to attack me on these spots.
And if you think I'm racist, fine, if you think you and your divine sight are the only one to see the latent racism in me, fine, but once again you don't know **** about me (uhhh, I might sound like I'm offended, for the sake of having a good mature discussion, I beg you to trust that I'm perfectly calm and not in a defensive mood)...attacks need real targets, as far as I'm concerned, the target you chose in me are unknown to you...Sun zi would have slapped your backbone for that hehehehehehe.
CMA ARE derived from chinese MIND. it's in the name of that stupid world citizen thing that malay tribes of Sarawak are forced to speak malay instead of their native language....which makes their language AND their culture DIE...as I stated in my earlier post being a citizen of the world DOESN'T mean foreign cultures have to be processed and corrupted to fit your own cultural mindset but it's the OTHER way around: YOU have to EMPTY YOUR CUP and come to the foreign culture while bowing your head in humility like you would a king, it's the only way to save the individuality of cultures in this globalization instead of uniformizing them...foreign cultures are a taste to be acquired, it's not something you should accomodate to fit your self-centered tastes.
You soundd to me like you're the paradigm of guys bringing the world to a cultural uniformisation...scary...

Racism, racism, it's the only word coming out of your mouth...you got some racism issue when you were young or what? You seem to me like Don Qijotte who was so obsessed with giants that he saw them in every windmill...
I never in my post mentionned Chinese RACE but Chinese MIND...if you don't acknowledge that chinese have a mind of their own and ways of thinking or sensibilities radically different from that of "westerner" (it's not a good term, each "westerner" has its own mindsets too), then it means you are blinding your own eyes, and there is no greater blind than the one who refuses to see. So once again for me it's not a RACE issue, but a MIND issue...sorry, but it's a fact: I wasn't raised with chinese mindsets, and chinese weren't raised with a french's mindset...it's not about race if we say that we think differently...it's a fact that only fools deny...but I bowed my head, approached it, and started to learn...
so, how does it feel to be the inheritor of 2 systems?? You sound pretty proud of that..they are YOURS as you capitalized it yourself...was it bugging you that they belonged to chinese before? Are chinese less worthy than you to possess these systems?
Your views are soooooooooooo manichean...when I read your post, it sounds like "chinese are evil, they try to keep gong fu closed to us, you are the clown that the chinese need to feel good giving themselves medals"...and you say there's racism in my post?? And why the hell adding Gene to this?? Doesn't he seem like an open minded guy to you? Does he sound evil? Or are open-minded guys only open-minded to you because they share your views?? Why putting all the chinese in the same basket in your posts, like they are all the same and without individuality, like they all think the same things...isn't that close to racism??
So all chinese necessarily agree with PRC?? COME ON...

pfff...so that's the point huh...you're ****ed because non-chinese guys were treated as lesser students than chinese by some sifus...so-called school secrets were only passed to chinese, non-chinese having only the outter shell ...like it's a big news that a particular group (social, cultural whatever) tries to hang on to the components of their identity and shed it from the rest of the world (ie : the "non-them")...life is tough huh??
I'm out...

Stumblefist

08-22-2001, 04:02 PM

CP
Racism: Yes i think you are racist. Separating Humans by Race is Racist.
You can bet this word will come out of my mouth quite often. It needs to be said over and over again. You having been in China doesn't seem to mean much.

"CMA ARE derived from chinese MIND."
No! CMA were developed from a HUMAN mind Chinese RACE had nothing to do with it.
But if you believe the Chinese own CMA why are you here? It's not yours to practice. Why don't you go learn Karate or something?

"YOU have to EMPTY YOUR CUP and come to the foreign culture while bowing your head in humility like you would a king"

Oh i get it S&M, cool. Welll everybody has to get their kicks somehow. Have fun shuffling your feet.

"so, how does it feel to be the inheritor of 2 systems?? You sound pretty proud of that"
It is extremely satisfying and i am grateful for the people that gave it to me. I have something that is MY own forever.

"And why the hell adding Gene to this??"
Gene admits his racial bias.

"like it's a big news that a particular group (social, cultural whatever) tries to hang on to the components of their identity"
Greed, Selfishness, Cruelty, Parsimony of all Kinds, Meanness, Lovelessness... that is not big news. BIG NEWS is when people overcome things like racism and share and give and love

")...life is tough huh??"
My life has been tougher than you could ever imagine and i know what is nourishing to survival and what is destructive and racial bias is destructive.

"I'm out..."
So am I.

"Without water there would be no fish"

Crimson Phoenix

08-22-2001, 05:35 PM

OK, one last post because I'm getting tired of this:
First of all, you don't seem to acknowledge that every ethny has a mind shaped by...it's culture, as a matter of fact, so when I mention chinese, I take it as a whole culture, and NOT a race...saying the "chinese race" (and also chinese culture to a certain extent I must admit) is meaningless, as what we call chinese can relate to more or less 57 totally different ethnies...
If you want to keep believing that I mean chinese as a race and not as a culture in spite of my numerous precisions, it is because indeed you do not want to see...like you (purposedly I imagine) forgot some of my attacks to you in your seemingly exact rehearsal of my every words...it seemed you took everyone of my point to argument...but when you look closer, some points you skipped...it's like chinese painting, the unpainted is as meaningful as the painted, your choice of what to attack and what to ignore in my own posts show your game pretty well...
You wanna know? we are two stubborn donkeys and no one will change his mind...my mother and my sifu always told me that the wise man always stops first, so let's say you won...happy now?
I'm happy too, because I know there are persons like you on this planet that don't have one bit of racial bias in them, endlessly fight racism without ever having been guilty of one racial-preference matter and who, in spite of their incredibly tough life, can still be gentlemen and turn metaphors in good ole' sweaty S&M joke because they had to say something and didn't come out with anything better...
You WON YOU WON!!!!
Ya happy??
See ya on some other topic for a good discussion another day, OK?? Yes, I know, I lose with class hahahahahahhaha