Wing Chun scandal

[Phil Redmond]

Does anyone know what happened to link?

http://www.wingchun.hu/scandal.html

[[Censored]]

Google cache: http://216.239.33.100/search?q=cache:ech0p6sG-LwC:www.wingchun.hu/scandal.html+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

You can copy sites like this onto your PC, in case they are taken down by their hosts. Try this free tool: SuperBot for Windows (http://www.sparkleware.com/superbot/).

[Phil Redmond]

Thanks for the help. I have a hard copy of the article with the pictures but I needed an electronic one.
PR

[anneemu4]

Are you kidding me?

That's crazy.

Does he really say that stuff???

[datou]

It must be true. I mean look, it is written with red font on a black background-very convincing! I mean, this guy who wrote the article is asian, and asians know what is going on in the secret circles. It can only be true. Therefore it is of utmost importance for top instructors in "rival" organizations to spend their time on an internet forum to find out what happened to such an important link. You see they need to store it on their computer otherwise they will just have to remain frustrated for the rest of their lives.

Now they can rest assured that regardless of some pointless, nameless 1986 incident, at least the other guy was just a phony!

What a load of their shoulders this must be!

[tmanifold]

Phil could you possible e-mail me a copy with the pictures?
My E-mail is tmancombatives@yahoo.com

Tony

[EclecticStorm]

Hi guys,

What on earth is any of that? I cant get anything legable. What is the story about? What scandal? Could some one P.M with the info, i would greatly appreciate it!!
Victor

[mun hung]

Notice how all the senior posters won't touch this one?

Old news.

Bury the dead - they stink up the place.

[old jong]

I can understand Phil.

[datou]

Why should we bury this? Isn't it a tenet of wing chun forums to flog dead horses?

Seriously, isn't it ridiculous that members of "rival" (I quote "rival" because I thought this **** was dead and buried) need to find out what happened to this link or this story? It is as if they need to post it on their school walls to feel justified and self-righteous -"Hey students, look! - These guys are fake, so we must be the real thing!"

Do I, as a WT person find it of utmost importance to keep copies of the VTAA letters about Mr. William C. that were written pre-1986? No - I simply don't care. After I read them, (along with articles and interviews with William C. (pre-1986) where he is, in my opinion, a bit insulting to the other WC styles) I just threw them out. Who cares? I really don't own copies of them anymore, and I am someone who collects all this kind of stuff.

What is funny about this article is that it naturally only reflects one side of the story. I could go in to the whole thing about this being a setup, but that would be speculative and merely my opinion. We have enough conspiracy theories living in the States anyway.

Has anyone ever seen the newspaper articles written about this "scandal"? Probably not, because they are in Chinese. I have archived copies of the newspaper articles about this, including where Leung Ting is quoted as saying he was the "head of the wing chun school". This article was written under false information as promotion for a kung-fu tv show that Leung Ting was producing. Leung Ting was so upset that the newspaper printed that, that he immediately called and asked for a retraction and apology from the newspaper. The correction/apology was printed in the same newspaper the next day. But of course very few people noticed (or wanted to notice) the small retraction in the paper.

Also, hasn't anybody realized that even Leung Ting discusses these "scandals" in his books Wing Tsun Kuen and Roots of Wing Tsun? It's not like he is trying to keep people from knowing what was going on. The book Wing Tsun Kuen was first written in what, 1976? Oh, big secrets going on in this forum!

Oh yeah, and Leung Ting calls himself an 8th dan black belt - oh my God! Well actually Leung Ting calls himself the 10th Level (not black belt)! Is this shocking? No, because every successful martial arts organization has a grading structure - Mr. William C. included. There must be one in order to establish hierarchy and a standard curricullum. Isn't every belt/rank/grading system eventually self-created? Somewhere along the line somebody said "OK, well I am the such and such level". Who awarded any WC/VT/WT grandmaster with a gold sash, or 10th Level or black belt? Ultimately it was themselves (or their students) somewhere along the line. Scandalous!

It is not my goal or job to defend my Si-Gung point for point. In my experience the more you try to defend, the more you are put on attack. Even if someone much more informed and intelligent than myself proves every single one of my points wrong, I still don't care. I have found what I love doing. Why should I spend my time refuting what others choose as their path?

Are you guys not satisfied with the wc/vt/wt style of your choice? Why are so many forum contributors secretly self-hating martial artists?

I don't regularly post, I spend most of my time working and training. Only occasionally do I put in my two cents. That is about all it is worth.

Thomas W.

[marcelino31]

Just FYI, Leung Ting has, just recently, been awarded Level 11 (Master of Almightness). And I quote, "this level is an honorary title and is only conferred to a great grandmaster (10th Level MOC) of the WingTsun System after he has retired."

On his passing away perhaps Leung Ting
will be awarded the level that does not exist in reality (Sage of Philospohy)

[Kuen]

Also, hasn't anybody realized that even Leung Ting discusses these "scandals" in his books Wing Tsun Kuen

"Fraid I don't find that in my copy but it's a first printing. Was it added later?

[datou]

marcelino31 - Thank you for totally missing the point about the self created ranking systems (of which you are also a part of).

Your response reminded me about how useless this or any other forum is.

Surprisingly (or perhaps not), you are very much up to date on what is going on in the Leung Ting organization. Obsess much?

[datou]

Kuen - it may have been added in the 2nd printing. It is in the article about Leung Ting under the heading "misunderstanding among kung fu brothers".

In any case, you would find it in any recent edition.

Also the german book "Geschichte des Yip Man Wing Tsun Stiles" (History of the Yip Man Wing Tsun style) from the EWTO, contains copies of the Chinese newspaper articles reporting on all these events. My wife is from Hong Kong and she translated it all for me. In my last trip to Hong Kong I went to a library in Kowloon and found the complete articles (and subsequent follow ups over the years 1976-78) and had copies made for my records.

If you ever have the chance to pick up Roots of Wing Tsun, there is a copy of an interview with Grandmaster Yip Man in Chinese. Find a Chinese speaking friend to translate it for you. That is all I will say.

[marcelino31]

Originally posted by datou
marcelino31 - Thank you for totally missing the point about the self created ranking systems (of which you are also a part of).

Your response reminded me about how useless this or any other forum is.

Surprisingly (or perhaps not), you are very much up to date on what is going on in the Leung Ting organization. Obsess much?


Datou, I am not part of Leung Ting organization, I am simply stating information about LT.

Datou seems like you yourself have a problem with obsession and perhaps other mental problems as well.

[datou]

That was my point - you are not in the Leung Ting organization, yet you seem to be so knowledgeable about it. You are only half-correct, the 11th Level is an honorary title for him in Europe only. Confusing yes, important no.

Whether its the 10th, 11th or 88th level, it is still a creation of his organization, as is the grading structure in your organization. Don't you get it? That was the point. I can explain it again if you are not sure.

I think you are correct about me obsessing and having mental problems. I'm taking your comment to heart and getting some professional treatment right away. Thanks!

[Tristan]

Datou, I am not part of Leung Ting organization, I am simply stating information about LT.
To eager to critisize? Just trying to pick all the negative things?
Cause you are totally wrong on this. LT has still the 10th level in his org. (the EWTO including). Next time be more accurate when stating information! ;) Or you should read more neutral sources as well.

[reneritchie]

Wow, it really is the 1980s again. Better get me some big hair and some Bon Jovi classics!

[marcelino31]

Originally posted by Tristan

To eager to critisize? Just trying to pick all the negative things?
Cause you are totally wrong on this. LT has still the 10th level in his org. (the EWTO including). Next time be more accurate when stating information! ;) Or you should read more neutral sources as well.

check this out:
http://www.wingchun.com/wtmain.htm

and

http://www.wingtsunrandwick.com/

[datou]

rene - please don't mock this important era - some of my best training partners were born in the early 80's!

everyboday wang tsun tonight!

[Grendel]

What martial art did Garrett Gee's father teach? Where did Garrett Gee's father teach?

What high school in San Francisco, CA did Garrett Gee attend growing up? Did he graduate?

Garrett Gee "borrows" TWC and adds in terms such as "paradigm shift," "time and space," and Hung Fi Yee. Can you prove he didn't?

http://www.schulzmartialarts.com/events/grandopening/02192003.html

http://www.joplinglobe.com/archives/2000/001220/obit/story4.html

[Chango]

You should read more information before you make such assertions. This behavior is childish and very insulting. You lack information so you choose to insult what you do not understand. This only reflects on you. So do us all a favor and reframe from these childish acts.

[desertwingchun2]

Grendel - In reference to the blurb under your screen name, you are proving to be a true master baiter! Why do you choose to post these types of comments under this screen name and not your other? ;)

Care to share your real name?

-David

[canglong]

"To see what is right and not to do it is cowardice." --Confucius

Grendel you may want to either read your own tag again or change your nick preferably to something that starts with C.

[anerlich]

Cause you are totally wrong on this. LT has still the 10th level in his org. (the EWTO including). Next time be more accurate when stating information!

Good advice! Maybe you should take it!

I remember distinctly the 11th level, Master of Almightiness (cringe) press release from the WT org. Be it honorary, only in Europe, or whatever, it's still pretty weird.

I also remember a press release in Blitz Magazine in Australia prior to Leung Ting's and Keith Kernspecht's visit her recently. Apparently Leung Ting is now a "Great Grandmaster", presumably to make room for KK's own apotheosis to "Grandmaster".

I know these titles are created by the WT organisation, AS indeed is William Cheung's own "Grandmaster" status by the WWCKFA (which my Sifu and I once belonged to, but no longer do mainly due to this sort of idiocy). They are all self promotions, as well as all rampantly egotistical and pretty ridiculous.

The best, sanest and most senior MA teacher I've ever met I refer to as "Dave".


In my last trip to Hong Kong I went to a library in Kowloon and found the complete articles (and subsequent follow ups over the years 1976-78) and had copies made for my records.

Pretty funny for someone who goes to this extent to lecture us all on not getting obsessed with sensational and sordid events.

[datou]

Grendel - Like I said, I probably should get some help! Actually, my last trip to HK was taken before I started WT, and that is why I did the research. Still makes me weird though.

[reneritchie]

Grendel,

If memory serves, Gee sifu's father is a well known practitioner of Fu family martial arts (Bagua, Xingyi, Taiji), which was brought to Guangdong from the north by the famous Fu Zhensong, and has been caried on by several students and his own family (of course, with the usual internacine feuding about who received the truer realer secreter stuff). Well known Fu family practitioners, besides Gee sifu's father, are Bow Sim-Mark in the US, and my sisuk, Kwok Wan-Ping in Hong Kong, both of whom learned from Fu's son, Fu Wing-Fai.

I also remember something about Jing Mo (Chin Woo) in the background.

Datou - Born in the 80s?! D@mn I'm getting old. The 80s were my highschool years! Now where's that original Van Halen stuff...

[black and blue]

Everyone's talking Garret Gee - someone get the chap to register and post a few answers to all the questions... I want to get back to my Adam Ant cassette.

"Stand and deliver - your money or your life... Haa... and even though you fool your souls your conscience will be mine...
all mine"

Hmmmm

[marcelino31]

This one is for you Phil Redmon,

http://vingtsun.virtue.nu/

are those the same pics you were talking about?

[gnugear]

That head swapping shot cracks me up!!

I want to put my head in there and frame it.

[reneritchie]

What'chu talking about, suckas? Mr. T was clearly an original 1980s student of Yip Man!!!

(with profound apologies to both Yip Man & Mr. T, their families, friends, and in general people with an ounce of taste...)

[yuanfen]

Watch out Rene- with modern tech you could have Mr T chi saoing with Ip Man! It could become the beginning of a new history.

[old jong]

Mr.T was a real advocate of the straight line...He used to go straight trought walls instead of jumping over them!
Now,we have the proof that he was a Wing Chun guy...Uhmmm!:rolleyes: ;)

He was also a "busted door student"

[reneritchie]

Joy you crazy foo! Stop all the jibba jabba and let T concentrate on his training! {growl}

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Chango
You should read more information before you make such assertions. This behavior is childish and very insulting. You lack information so you choose to insult what you do not understand. This only reflects on you. So do us all a favor and reframe from these childish acts.
Hi Chango,

Just answer the questions. All I did was ask.

Obviously, you either don't know the answers or don't like the answers and how they reflect on HFY.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by desertwingchun2
Grendel - In reference to the blurb under your screen name, you are proving to be a true master baiter! Why do you choose to post these types of comments under this screen name and not your other? ;)

Care to share your real name?

-David
Hi David,

Do you know the answers? I am only asking some questions, just as I have seen you and other HFY adherents do.

Why not make public the answers? Go ahead. Show your knowledge.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by canglong
[BGrendel you may want to either read your own tag again or change your nick preferably to something that starts with C. [/B]
You mean 'canglong'? Why?

What do you find so difficult in answering the questions?

[Grendel]

Originally posted by black and blue
Everyone's talking Garret Gee - someone get the chap to register and post a few answers to all the questions... I want to get back to my Adam Ant cassette.

"Stand and deliver - your money or your life... Haa... and even though you fool your souls your conscience will be mine...
all mine"

Absolutely. If Garrett would answer the questions about HFY, that should answer all the speculation.

Another question. Why doesn't the SF school have Wing Chun on its sign? Why'd Garrett paint out the words? Is that an admission that it isn't Wing Chun?

[yuanfen]

My my Rene- mr T doing chi sao with Ip Man.!
Wonders never cease.
Time and space are challenging conceptions indeed!!
Also-
The picture solves the riddle of position and momentum
by passing Heisenberg.!

Joy

[anerlich]

Another thread goes down the HFY-flamefest maelstrom!

And a TWC guy started it! More proof of the relationship between HFY and TWC!

[Phil Redmond]

The article in question was in an issue of "Secrets of Kung Fu" an English magazine from HK. I wasn't trying to start anything underhanded. I didn't even mention what the article was about. I lost my copy of the Mag years ago and wanted to have a copy for my archives. I even have a copy of the letter from the VTAA saying that my sifu was not the inheritor of Yip Man's WC in case you're looking for balance. I just like to keep historical records. No biggie. Blame it on Rene...grin.

Heck, I just spent 2 days in Ohio at a tournament where I met a really great guy and VT Sifu named Steve Cottrell. We're going to link websites. He and I are past that one camp vs. the other mess. My guys and his guys hung out and had a great time. That's the way it should be.
Phil

[reneritchie]

Phil,

Sounds excellent, but did you learn Mr. T style WCK??!!

[Shadowboxer]

Rene - those pics are hilarious.

Sifu Redmond - It was a pleasure meeting you and touching hands with you and your students. All of my brothers/sisters had a great time and look forward to the next opportunity to meet and touch hands/hang out again. Perhaps, it will be at the Taiji Legacy August 1-3 here in Texas? I agree that this is the way it should be. We were fortunate enough to be able to experience some TWC hands and ideas, as well as some Gulao (Koo Lo ?) hands and ideas about chi sao and fighting. We also got to touch hands with some Canadian Mantis students as well. It is unfortunate, however, that no HFY students could make it from Dayton so we could touch hands with them as well and have them explain in person what HFY is about since the internet can be such a limited medium of information exchange. Oh well, perhaps they will come down to Texas in August or clear their schedules for the Tourney next year.

;)

Yuanfen - Do you know if Sifu Fong and Tony plan on going to the Taiji Legacy this year as well. It was a treat to meet them last year. We almost got to play a game of shuffleboard with Sifu Fong but their ride to the airport arrived before we could get underway.

[yuanfen]

Shadowboxer- I dont know. I will see Sifu Fong this weekend at
the annual reunion seminar- and I will try to remember to ask him.
Probably will depend on whther he made a commitmnet to the organizers or not. Please give my regards to your sifu.

joy chaudhuri

[Jim Roselando]

Rene,


Those pic's are too funny!


Bravo!


See ya,

[Shadowboxer]

Will do.

[reneritchie]

Jim,

Wait until you see the pics of Fung Chun doing Huen Sao with Elvis! Or you with Mini Jim, yeah baby!

[burnsypoo]

Hey Rene, I thinkit's time to break out the "separated at birth" shots.. what do you think.
:P

[sel]

reneritchie,

those pics are too funny! is that what the T stands for in WT and TWC....the secret T ingredient. lol
thanks for a great laugh

[anerlich]

He and I are past that one camp vs. the other mess. My guys and his guys hung out and had a great time. That's the way it should be.

Amen to that.

EclecticStorm, the orginal Page was originally titled "Wing Chun Scandal" which is why Phil referred to it that way. Take a pill and calm down, OK?

[Rolling_Hand]

What'chu talking about, suckas? Mr. T was clearly an original 1980s student of Yip Man!!!

(with profound apologies to both Yip Man & Mr. T, their families, friends, and in general people with an ounce of taste...)

Attachment: yipman_mrt.jpg
This has been downloaded 64 time(s).

-------------------------------------------------------



Leung Ting is the GM of WT family,

Whoever did this to Leung Ting should be banned.

[reneritchie]

If I get banned, does that mean I won't have to put up with the cowardly annonymous internet troll pawns stalking me all the time? (in between their napster fringe-porn downloads and spam generation side-jobs, of course) If so, I may just vote "yes!"

[OdderMensch]

Sorry Rene, you can't get away that easily! :D

I'm sure Ting sifu himself would have snickered at that pic, if he took it in the proper context.

Redmond sifu
My guys and his guys hung out and had a great time. That's the way it should be.
I agree, a great time can be had by all, if everyone if confident enough in what they do to not feel threatend by outside information. It is always heartning to see such skill.

[reneritchie]

Sorry Rene, you can't get away that easily!

Dagnabit!

[Abstract]

i am in T E A R S :p :p :p

[swordsoul]

haahahha, hohohohohoo whew......

rene you gotta warn us before you do somethin' like that... sheesh, *whew* ::dries eyes::

oh lord, i will cherish those pics for ever, my friend will die laughing!!!!!!

matt

[Patrick Gordon]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by reneritchie
Well known Fu family practitioners, besides Gee sifu's father, are Bow Sim-Mark in the US, and my sisuk, Kwok Wan-Ping in Hong Kong, both of whom learned from Fu's son, Fu Wing-Fai.

hey Rene,

Don't forget about us Canadians. Victor Fu, the son of Fu Wing-Fai and hier to the Fu style Martial arts, lives and teaches in Vancouver. My brother was a long time student of his and learned all of the MANY Fu forms taught by Fu Sifu. I understand there is some Fu style teacher in Montreal. Know anything about them? Take care, regards,

Patrick Gordon. P.S. when ya coming to Ottawa?

[reneritchie]

Sel,

That must be it! I'm going to celebrate by having some Traditional Tsocolate (Y)Ice cream!

Burnsy,

I think separated at birth shots, along with chimp expressions, would get us in whole heaps of trouble! (that means soon!)

Abstract,

I though they might ease the tension, and get the trolls all panty-bunched at the same time. Glad to have been right on both scores!

Swordsoul,

I would, but surprises, like laughter, is good for the soul.

Patrick,

OOPS! I did forget about the Canadians (or the Canukistanis, as some of our less than happy neighbors to the South have begun calling us...). We too have a proud Fu legacy. I'll be in Ottawa soon, but probably only for a quick family visit. I have to work out enough time to hook up with you, Burnsey and the B-Street band, and my sidai.

[captain]

...............and the pictures of YKS dancing with the bee gee's,
would that make rene laugh so much??????

[EclecticStorm]

Mr. Ritchie,

In your book, "YKS WCK", i thought , originaly, was a picture of YKS with a cloth trophy. I had to repurchase your book after loosing my old copy on a bus in Hawaii, while learning TWC. And have noticed the picture is differant, just YKS face??? Am i crazy or what?
V.S.