Paradigm Shift Article by Terance Rangi

[Grendel]

Paradigm Shift by Terance Rangi
http://www.hchwingchun.com.au/article07.htm

The previous thread on this article started by yylee got hijacked by a number of people who hadn't read the article, a symptom of "no-it-all-itis" common to the Kung Fu forum.

Wouldn't anyone like to discuss the article and its propositions?

Regards,

[sel]

i enjoyed that article very much and i thought the author explained it very well. i believe that once a certain skill level of wing chun is realised, that it will be the 'mind as the body and the body as the mind'.

before anyone asks the inevitable question, no, i have not reached that level of skill yet in my own training.

[anerlich]

This is not a bad article, though I don't think its concepts are a "paradigm shift" in themselves.

However I do not agree that overcoming the fight or flight reaction is necessary, a good idea, or even possible if there is a high level of duress. This reaction comes to us from millions of years of evolution (or 4004 BC for the creationists) and IMHO the plan should be to harness rather than reject it.

I also disagree that positive emotions should be cultivated during imagery. Sanford Strong, the San diego cop who wrote "Strong on Defense", advocates imagery that involves imagining oneself being scared, hurt, or injured, but continuing to fight for escape and survival. I'd trust his judgement rather than Mr Rangi's in this instance. The imagining of positive outcomes are better for sporting situations rather than defense.

I certainly agree that learning to stay relaxed under pressure and the use of imagery are essential.

[Mr Punch]

I don't see it as a paradigm shift either, but basic physical educational psychology. Interesting and valuable nonetheless.

I would add the Subconcious Incompetent level as the first to describe the people who have done absolutely no physical training before joining the school, then after the Conscious Incompetent level I think many of us return to the Subconscious Incompetent level: ie believing that they are getting somewhere and really regressing through overanalysis of details with various degrees of relevance to the real problems. In short, not identifying their shortcomings accurately enough, after 'seeing the ox', and believing that they are making progress!

For brief periods of time during this period, many of us also reach the Unconscious Incompetent level, when someone lays us out!!!:D




Otherwise, Anerlich is correct on the fight/flight response.
That's why I only come back to troll on this sorry-assed forum occasionally... cos otherwise I'd have to change my sig to 'Anerlich is right'... or 'Anerlich is a smartass', 'Bet Anerlich can't tie his shoelaces and chew gum at the same time' etc... or somesuch...!:D

[anerlich]

Anerlich can't tie his shoelaces and chew gum at the same time

I've only tried that once - I succeeded, but it was pretty messy :D

[yylee]

IMHO, the "circles" that sel has been talking about is one example of imagery.

[PaulH]

Good article indeed! I can see how this forms the basis of higher WC hand skills where sensitivity of opponent’s intention is paramount. The use of positive imagery makes sense if you are into achieving more relaxation. But if you fight, you need violent, cataclysmic, explosive imageries to trigger your mind into explosive action to do damages. Imageries go both ways.

[S.Teebas]

This is not a bad article, though I don't think its concepts are a "paradigm shift" in themselves.
The article itself isn’t the paradigm shift. I believe the author’s intent was to emphasise the shift in thinking that’s required to perform WC in its most efficient form. I.e. using relaxation, focusing and proper coordination of the body to move into an advantageous position; so that you almost fall into the strike. Rather than using a muscular strategy which gives the advantage to the strongest person.


However I do not agree that overcoming the fight or flight reaction is necessary, a good idea, or even possible if there is a high level of duress.
The fight or flight reaction is referencing to the use of relaxation and strategy, which you mentioned below that you agree with using:

I certainly agree that learning to stay relaxed under pressure and the use of imagery are essential.

This reaction comes to us from millions of years of evolution (or 4004 BC for the creationists) and IMHO the plan should be to harness rather than reject it.
The idea is to use the body in a different way than most other people do. This can give us an advantage of using our skills to overcome to common instincts. Skills can be built up to work under high pressure situations, reference “Advanced Level (Sub-conscious Competent)”. I’ve also heard of a story where Yip Man once used his skills to overcome a man who attacked some woman. Yip Man practiced WC which is based on relaxation. There is an example of someone using skills which had been cultivated, which I believe opposed to common ‘fight or flight’ instincts. Of course I wasn’t there (before you say it) but the stories account mentions the man was quite a bit bigger than yip man, which infers his use of skill as opposed to muscular effort.


I also disagree that positive emotions should be cultivated during imagery. Sanford Strong, the San Diego cop who wrote "Strong on Defence", advocates imagery that involves imagining oneself being scared, hurt, or injured, but continuing to fight for escape and survival.
What does imagining myself getting hurt or injured help me in getting my tan sau to automatically come out using the thought of the mind (during a training session)? How does imagining being scared help me to relax? First you actually have to be able to do it before you add the pressure of a realistic situation. I think there’s some confusion here upon what specifically is being visualised and when. Perhaps this could have been explained more in the article.
When simulating a real encounter I can see the value in using imagery to visualise the seriousness of the situation etc etc… But the positive imagery also has a place in getting your attention fixed in one spot (for one possible example). For example in SNT training you maybe trying to focus to one spot, but you just cant keep you focus. Now change your thinking and imagine some totally gorgeous babe in from of you! Got your attention?!? You need to experiment and use you everyday thinking that works for you .

I'd trust his judgement rather than Mr Rangi's in this instance. The imagining of positive outcomes are better for sporting situations rather than defence.
The way I see it is positive imagery has it place in WC training. Mr Rangi is talking from a WC perspective about improving WC with imagery. Sanford Strong is not a WC practitioner. He is not subscribing to WC training methods so I’m thinking it’s not a great insight from his point of view on how to activate WC attributes e.g. mind force. He does I’m sure, have great insights on other specific area that he does have experience in like self defence etc, a related but different subject to WC training. :)

[anerlich]

The article itself isn’t the paradigm shift.

You know, I think I said that.


The idea is to use the body in a different way than most other people do. This can give us an advantage of using our skills to overcome to common instincts.

you can only "do it different" up to a point, after that your movements become inefficient because they are unnatural. Overcoming "common instincts" is also only a good idea up to a point. Take it too far and you are trying to use your psychophysiology in a way which is contrary to its design, IMO a poor strategy.

Why are a relaxed and flowing response, and the use of the heightened physical attributes provided by the adrenalin dump, incompatible or mutually exclusive?


I think there’s some confusion here upon what specifically is being visualised and when.

Not from my POV. Are you perhaps referring to Mr Rangi or yourself?


There is an example of someone using skills which had been cultivated, which I believe opposed to common ‘fight or flight’ instincts.

I believe such "opposition" to be fictional and unnecessary.


Sanford Strong is not a WC practitioner. He is not subscribing to WC training methods

That's your opinion. I train WC and believe his methods are totally applicable, if not indispensable. My teacher is also an advocate. Have you actually read Strong's book?


he does have experience in like self defence etc, a related but different subject to WC training.

Why do you have to make a distinction? If the two require different approaches, IMO something is very wrong.

BTW I regularly train with a gorgeous babe or two in front of me. It does NOT help me to concentrate on my tan sao.

[PaulH]

Hi S. Teebas,

I like what you said earlier as I have some interesting experience with a Sihing that can do this very well:
"I believe the author’s intent was to emphasise the shift in thinking that’s required to perform WC in its most efficient form. I.e. using relaxation, focusing and proper coordination of the body to move into an advantageous position; so that you almost fall into the strike. Rather than using a muscular strategy which gives the advantage to the strongest person. "
Often in practical fights, a clever fighter will try to trap/distract your focus/mind/intention first then hit. For example, JKD people like the pain infliction to freeze you up before doing their attacking entry techniques. How do you deal with this sort of disrupting tactics while maintaining your focus and relaxation?

Regards,

[S.Teebas]

Thanks for your feedback Anerlich. Im always interested in your point-of-view even if I totally disagree. :D

PaulH Says:

Often in practical fights, a clever fighter will try to trap/distract your focus/mind/intention first then hit.

Firstly id say if you're aware that a fight is imminent, then you should strike your opponent. (of course only if you have no other option to get out of danger)


For example, JKD people like the pain infliction to freeze you up before doing their attacking entry techniques.

Wouldn't the "pain infliction" *BE* the attack? If not please explain. :confused:


How do you deal with this sort of disrupting tactics while maintaining your focus and relaxation?

Again, im not sure what specific tactics you mean? In general i'd say staying alert, be aware of your surroundings, don't act like the classic victim etc.. But once they attack, use your WC training.

[PaulH]

S. Teebas,

Imagine that your hands or feet are the knifes. What would you do when you see his hands or legs come into the range? This is the essence of pain infliction. Often, while you are busy dealing with his inflicted pain, JKD people would come in and do straight blasts capitalizing on that created mental gap of their pain infliction.

[Ernie]

Paul I hope you don't mind me chiming in as I have had much experience with very skilled jkd people and I have personal felt the pain infliction entry ,
first of all it comes from the Filipino concept they destroy what comes '' we would say they are chasing hands '' any thing you stick out gets smacked it is developed from the weapons training and they blend it with boxing foot work. in the end a highly mobile porcupine defense . they can intercept any incoming attack with the sharp parts of the bodies knees elbows even eye jabs or groin kicks . what makes it work is there training they develop the ability to do this from ''sniper range '' just far enough that you would have to lunge to reach them thus exposing your self and over committing a action that will leave you hanging in space for a sec . but the key is the work there foot work to such a high degree that they can then use this concept to slip in and out with lightning speed , this is the attack side '' pot shoting''
pot shotting is when they sit out in sniper range like a cat relaxed and observing the move in a way to cause you to weight your foot to much in one side or the other or cause you to adjust your stance anything to cause your mind to perform a function other then complete awareness , through many hours of sparring and training with people of all shapes and sizes the develop this eye sensitivity and can pick up and set up these situations once the see this momentary stall the capitalize on it with some form of quick in direct attack not met to be a knock out shot but just a feeler to try and stick you to cause you to freeze by way of pain or stalling your structure . if the get this reaction then they turn on the killer instinct and the fight begins ,
they understand how to steal time for entry most arts don't . they use tools like savate kicks eye jabs that have a good risk reward ratio these tools can be rip out there and pulled back in before the guy '' especially a flat footed wing chun man '' can respond . they stay on there toe's relaxed and very elusive .
that being said I have only seen a few that are very good at this skill most people lack the discipline to develop the foot work speed and timing to pull it off but if you ever run into one better hope he is a friend .

[anerlich]

Good post Ernie.

I have heard several WC people claim that WC aims to finish fights within seconds and so the concept of "diminishment" is often discounted. However, as Ernie said, Filipino systems relish taking a swipe at any traget on the extremities, to reduce the opp's physical abilities and psychological state. Since much Filipino training involves impact and edged weapons, it's hardly the case that WC doesn't need or can't use this because it hits harder, is deadlier, etc.

One interesting psychological model I came across is this:

An internal concentration with a narrow focus is required for technical training, e.g. forms, learning techniques.

An external concentration with a narrow focus is required for activities like shooting free throws, target shooting, etc.

An internal concentration with a broad focus is required for mental rehearsal, and formulating a strategy.

An external concentration with a broad focus is necessary for response to random external events, like fighting or sparring.

Any disruption to our psychophysiology which causes us to narrow our focus or turn it internal, then our ability to respond to external events is diminished.

This includes faking (to narrow the focus), inflicting pain (causing the concentration to turn internally, maybe even causing an internal dialog where we are critiquing our pwn performance - "Ow that hurt" or "Jeez, he can hit hard and I feel much slower), talking smack (causing us to examine our performance and thus go internal), etc.

In such a situation, the ability to recover quickly from mistakes and to return to a broad external focus is what may mean the difference between victory and defeat. The more we can impose the wrong concentration and focus on an opponent, the worse his performance will get and the effect will be cumulative unless he readjusts. Same is true with us.

[PaulH]

Andrew Nerlich,

Your observation is very astute! This is the art of stealing your opponent's time and attack momentum to your advantages. Ernie is very good at this.

Regards,

[Ernie]

anerlich
your picking up on the idea , i'll make it easy to remember ,you want to make the guy more concerned about his own well being then , be concerned about hurting you ,
you take his mind and his heart and you got him. i love the phrase '' the art of fighting with out fighting '' to me it means i never want to fight with i.e. trade punches.
i never want to deal with what ever skill you might have , i want to shut you down before any of that comes into play .
wing chuns core idea of forward pressure and always being on the attacking '' sticking a hand in his face '' side is a very basic example of this .
but closing the gap and getting past a aware opponent isn't the easyest thing in the world to do . there are other arts '' approaches '' out there that have become very good at this . so by viewing them through a wing chun filter i try to extract there concepts and play around with them in a live enviroment .
some times i learn so much more about wing chun when i jump into something completely different .
working out with kali/jkd guys has improved my ability to understand and use distance , then taking the idea of shell shocking some one with pain and applying it to the boxers i work with made entrys alot easier and finally working with my wing chun brethern and stalling there timing with pain has opened bigger windows of time to do what ever.

[anerlich]

some times i learn so much more about wing chun when i jump into something completely different

Amen to that. You can gain lots by looking at what you do from a fresh perspective. I feel this to be almost essential, the specialists and purists miss out on a lot of good info and perspectives.