Street Fighting Experience-The be all end all.

[TwoManSaw]

hello all,

I am curious as to what the practioners and teachers, who
believe only a good WCK Sifu can come from a fighting background.Teach and tell there students, that won't, perhaps by nature or choice ever test their WCK in the street fighting arena.

If so much value is based on Sifu's with real fighting experience, do you encourage your students to fight, and those that dont or won't, what becomes of them, are they refused instructor level
rankings because of their lack of real fighting experience, or are
those students that dont wish to test their skills on the street,
simply not accepted into the kwoon.

There is a great deal of teachings that can come from practioners
who have used their WCK and fighting ability in the street, but it
is not the be all end all, these insights can be passed on and taught to others.

It concerns me that if i was a student reading some of these post's by my Sifu. Who believed that only a good Sifu is one with fighting experience, and that i did not have a fighting background
either by choice or default i would probably feel undervalued and
disrespected.

I would love to hear what approach is given to students who dont
wish to fight by instructors and practioners who place so much value on fighting as an indication of WCK skill and worth.

[anerlich]

"Simply stated, most MA teachers who claim to be streetfighters don't have the stink.

"There is a certain psychic odour that comes from growing up and living in the streets. It's a rot that comes from constant exposure to violence, death, alcoholism, drug addiction, sociopathic behaviour, poverty, sadism and viciousness. It's reflected in a person's attitudes, speech patterns, personal interactions, and how he looks at the world. It's a certain hardening of the spirit that comes from years of living with the attitude of "do unto others before they do unto you." Add to that the chronic paranoia of having spent years looking over your shoulder, lest someone you have wronged slithers out of the shadow you just passed with revenge on his mind.

"When I say I was a streetfighter, it means that I was a vicious, self-centred, misbehaving, drunken stoned thug among other visious, self-centred, misbehaving, drunken, stoned thugs. We were the worst kind of savages. Man to man, mano a mano was bull. Numbers and weapons were always used to increase our odds wherever possible. Once you realised the other side could and would shoot back, you did everything in your power to make sure he never got the chance. You always stacked the deck in your favor. You hit first, and you hit hard enough to make sure he didn't get up. You ran as often as you hit, and you hit from behind as often as you could. Anyone who didn't play that way didn't last too long. The blood, bullets and knives were real. Life and death were determined by whims, intoxicants and sheer stupidity.

"Being, or having been, a streetfighter is nothing to be proud of, much less brag about. Nor is it something you turn on and off. It's not a job that you go to and come home from. It's a way of life (and often death) which is constant. It's living with being the hunter and the hunted day and night. Knowing the next corner you turn could end your life you don't swagger boldly around it.

"...Trying to impress people by claiming to be [a streetfighter] is like trying to impress people by claiming that you're a leper.

"...Someone who thinks going out and picking fights or working a few months as a bouncer in a local watering hole means he's a streetfighter is mistaken."

"...In the same way a lot of camp cooks became snipers when they returned from Vietnam, a whole lot of MA instructors became ex-streetfighters when they opened their schools...It sounds really good.... The problem is it's not true..."

Marc MacYoung.

By this definition, very few if any WCK instructors were ever streetfighters, so the argument is hypothetical.

I have far more respect for current or ex armed service personnel and cops than any MA teacher who goes on with that rubbish.

[desertwingchun2]

"There is a certain psychic odour that comes from growing up and living in the streets."

"Add to that the chronic paranoia of having spent years looking over your shoulder"

"Man to man, mano a mano was bull. Numbers and weapons were always used to increase our odds wherever possible."

"You always stacked the deck in your favor. You hit first, and you hit hard enough to make sure he didn't get up."

"You ran as often as you hit"
Oh man ... this is not often admitted too but, true all day long!

"Being, or having been, a streetfighter is nothing to be proud of, much less brag about."

"...Trying to impress people by claiming to be [a streetfighter] is like trying to impress people by claiming that you're a leper."

Anelich - Thanks for sharing. I've never heard of or seen anyone put those feelings to paper before. The phrases I highlighted above run deep, good post!

One thing real quick, who is Marc Mac Young?

-David

[anerlich]

Marc "Animal" MacYoung, he's written lots of books and done several videos for Paladin Press. I'm sure like many writers he uses the occasional dramatic licence, but still his stuff is all pretty good IMO.

Similar line (but different) to Geoff Thompson.

Both have websites with lots of articles on them, Google should find them for you pretty easily.

[Mr Punch]

Everyone with an interest in martial arts should read MacYoung. Even some wing chunners.:rolleyes: :D

[kj]

Originally posted by desertwingchun2
"...Trying to impress people by claiming to be [a streetfighter] is like trying to impress people by claiming that you're a leper."

Anelich - Thanks for sharing. I've never heard of or seen anyone put those feelings to paper before. The phrases I highlighted above run deep, good post!

-David

I concur - excellent post Anerlich. If I had to boil down to just one of those great quotes, this is the one.

I have some Goeff Thompson material, and you've inspired me to bump Marc Young up on my reading list.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[t_niehoff]

There is another issue -- that "streetfighting", or what I call assaults, don't really measure your performance. First, lots of people win streetfights/assaults but that doesn't mean they are using WCK or skilled WCK. Second, there is no way to determine the quality of the opposition: you may win, but it was against a chump. And third, there is no reasonable way (unless we are the jerk Andrew Nerlich describes) to get the significant experience that we need to develop. TN

I think it is obvious that we need fighting experience -- it is the only way to learn to fight (people who don't fight, can't fight). And I think it is obvious that "on the street" doesn't offer this experience. The only way to get it is IMO, and this also appears to be the opinion of the Gracies, etc., is by challenge fights -- which, btw, aren't about ego but are concerned with learning and developing skills. And interestingly, this is exactly the route taken by our esteemed ancestors. (The ones we don't esteem, didn't go that route). TN

Terence

[kj]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
There is another issue -- that "streetfighting", or what I call assaults, don't really measure your performance. First, lots of people win streetfights/assaults but that doesn't mean they are using WCK or skilled WCK. Second, there is no way to determine the quality of the opposition: you may win, but it was against a chump. And third, there is no reasonable way (unless we are the jerk Andrew Nerlich describes) to get the significant experience that we need to develop. TN

I think it is obvious that we need fighting experience -- it is the only way to learn to fight (people who don't fight, can't fight). And I think it is obvious that "on the street" doesn't offer this experience. The only way to get it is IMO, and this also appears to be the opinion of the Gracies, etc., is by challenge fights -- which, btw, aren't about ego but are concerned with learning and developing skills. And interestingly, this is exactly the route taken by our esteemed ancestors. (The ones we don't esteem, didn't go that route). TN
Terence

Very well stated (as usual), and on large I must agree.

My only caveat would be that such "fighting" as you refer to is not as much a black and white thing, as a very fine line with degrees of "not fighting" and "streetfighting" on the hairy edges of either side. I wouldn't write off anyone approaching (in the derivative sense) that razor's edge from either side too off-handedly. In this universe, absolutes are elusive.

As I see it, there are different kinds of stewards who keep each other in check, and however unintentionally serve together to preserve the art and its essence. One kind of steward excels at preserving the fighting aspects and application of Wing Chun, including the ability to demonstrate extreme prowess; the primary end of the art, so to speak, though not the sole end inasumch as individual ends will vary. Another type of steward excels at preserving Wing Chun as a system and methodology with [at least some] consistency over time, including the ability to effectively relay the conceptual and technical nuances and details to others; preservers of the path and framework of learning if you will. There are other types of stewards as well, but I don't want to digress too much. People don't tend to be one type of steward or another; rather we are each a unique and individual blend of types in differing proportions.

Without the "fighters," the fighting balance and primary end of the art would be obfuscated or lost. With fighters alone, the framework of learning, as well as secondary benefits of the art, would be lost in favor of the immediate "win," and ultimately the art as we know it supplanted by something else that serves for fighting. What we measure impacts outcome; if our focus of evaluation is only on one of the essential aspects, the system on whole will become out of balance and ultimately deteriorate.

In an "ideal world," every person would excel at all aspects of understanding, actualization and stewardship. In my experience it is rare for individuals to have extraordinary competence ranging the gamut of personal actualization to excellence in interpersonal communication, and all the tangential but relevant things in between. So it is my feeling that Wing Chun is rarely if ever preserved through individuals alone, or at least not to fullest benefit, not even by famous "masters." Rather it is best preserved through committed communities, however large or small those communities may be. Like any community, there will be those who specialize in different areas, and ultimately complement each other for the continuance and betterment of that community or its ends. This then, to TwoManSaw's question about valuing different types of exponents, and the value different types of individuals may bring to the art on whole.

More succinctly, there are two kinds of people in the world: those who divide the world into two kinds of people, and those who don't, LOL. As always, just some thoughts.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Grabula]

There is another issue -- that "streetfighting", or what I call assaults, don't really measure your performance. First, lots of people win streetfights/assaults but that doesn't mean they are using WCK or skilled WCK.


So fighting can't really measure your wing chun skill or performance? It seems to me even street fighting, especially if it is ongoing can be a pretty good measure of how good you are, or is wing chun about something other then fighting?

[yuanfen]

All streetfighting is not the same- depends on who. what, when, where. Depends on what straw one is looking through and where the straw is pointed. And a streetfighter can vary from...the kind of guy Mac Young is talking about to folks , and cowards who pick on old men and drunks who actually have actually maimed sports boxers , wrestlers and football players
and martial artists.
Its a big world.

[captain]

i think it is quite reasonable to talk about fights on a wck
message board.i was forced to use judo on a guy at
college.the dojo/kwoon work is needed because you may
become sloppy fighting strictly from/onto the street.

[Grabula]

It seems to me like some don't consider fighting, or possibly just "street fighting" (When I chose an art to study I chose wing chun for it's supposed effectiveness through simplicity) isn't a good measure of ones ability? I could agree all fights are different, so is a measure of my skill only to be got in a controlled situation, in my school, in a tournament, some other venue where there are rules?
IMHO, it seems street fighting might be the pretty good test of my ability. Granted, even the best lose from time to time, but what better arena to know whether you have good enough skill to defend yourself or others?

[Sihing73]

Hello,

My perspective on training Wing Chun is to have something very efficient to use should the need arise. Still, my ultimate desire is to never need to use it. If applied correctly Wing Chun can be very devastating, as can all Martial Arts. If applied incorrectly it will not measure up.

The best one can do is to keep an open mind and explore all options. Realize that a true attack on the street will most likely come without warning and may involve a weapon. In many cases you will never see the attack until it is too late. So how do you train for this? You raise your level of awareness and practice avoiding areas most likely to lend themselves to this kind of people. Do not take unnecessary chances or try to prove your "toughness". Be big and strong enough to walk away!

I think that it is important to train as realistically as possible but in the end it is far better to run away. If someone wants my money I will most likely give it to them. If they want something more that is a different story.

I think that real life experience is very desirible but not always necessary for a good Sifu. I would respect the man with ability who is able to avoid fights rather than the one with a long list to his name.

Train your Wing Chun to be the most direct, efficient and brutal as possible within the bounds of safety. Prepare your mind to accept that you will most likely get hit and even hurt. Obtain control in your techniques. And, like I tell my students.....CHEAT!!! My bottom line is that I go home to my family. Having said that I have a far better chance of doing so every day that I do not fight, although sometimes there is a fight waiting at home and those I almost never win :rolleyes:

Peace,

Dave

[anerlich]

I could agree all fights are different, so is a measure of my skill only to be got in a controlled situation, in my school, in a tournament, some other venue where there are rules?

Sportfighting would be your only LEGAL option, yes. And it's not a bad one either. I'd rather have Pride's Kazushi Sakuraba backing me up than any of the purported "WC streetfighting veterans" any day.

IMO, most of the WC/T claimants of "300+ streetfights" are counting every time they as a bouncer escorted a drunk from a bar or made a guy 15 years older slip over on a polished floor. On those stats, I probably know a dozen guys locally with more "streetfights" under their belts, none of whom would call themselves a "streetfighter".

The trouble with a REAL no rules fight is there is no one to stop you getting seriously and permanently injured, disfigured, or killed. If you were having a bad day or not quite up to par, the potential consequences of defeat outweight the very dubious benefits of "experience". Getting a criminal record for assault can get you a term in jail and really mess up your prospects for a nice life. A gift that keeps on giving.

"Fighting in the street is for losers ... the real challenges are on the mat, day in and day out." - John Will, BJJ black belt and head of BJJ Australia.

[t_niehoff]

Grabula wrote:

so is a measure of my skill only to be got in a controlled situation?

Of course, how can it be otherwise? Skill is relative. You need to know your opponent's skill level to determine your's (the Gracie standard for becoming a black belt is being able to hold one's own against other black belts). The guy that attacks you on the street may be a complete slob -- how do you know? And if you can deal with him what does that tell you of your skill level? On the other hand, if you can deal with a skilled fighter in a challenge fight , even though it is a somewhat controlled environment, you will know that you could deal with most of the slobs out there.

Terence

[yuanfen]

even though it is a somewhat controlled environment, you will know that you could deal with most of the slobs out there.

Terence
---------------------------------------------------------------------
most maybe- some others maybe not. Still-
Analogy and speculation.... that a controlled environment
automatically prepares one for an uncontrolled environment.
Some but not complete differences in perspectives.

[Grabula]

are there two different "measures" of skill? Your ability against others who have "skill" and your ability against the untrained?

just so we all understand, I am not proposing we go get into fights on the street to establish our skill, just wondering if being tested in your learning environment is better or worse then fighting in the street to determine what sort of skill you have?

[yuanfen]

Grabula- yes I think that there at least different measures of skill-
specially in the difference betweena controlled and an controlled environmnet IMO. Some skills are transferable from one to the other.
There can be bums in the gym or on the street.
You dont learn much from working on bums... but you never can tell when you could run into a spontaneous and fairly skilled person on the street. Lots of folks who became sports fighters
were street hoods too- Roberto Duran, Tyson, Rocky Graziano
and others. Athletes from different sports get into street tiffs too.
I am NOT suggesting that laws should be broken or that one should deliberately start something on the street.
But stuff happens-- and good gong fu is likely to train you better for it than sporting activity. IMO opinion and experience anyways.
Got nothing against working with resisting folks-good idea- but before modifying a good gongfu system because of sporting activity- train good wing chun-IMO good gong fu practice is additional insurance against the real thing.

[Grabula]

Got nothing against working with resisting folks-good idea- but before modifying a good gongfu system because of sporting activity- train good wing chun-IMO good gong fu practice is additional insurance against the real thing.


wise words.