Taiji mantis and Zhan zhuang

[northernJump]

in an earlier thread: "taiji mantis (PM Taiji)???"
Mantis 108 mentioned the taiji related training in taiji mantis. I was wondering if this includes Zhan zhuang - standing qigong - a fundamental exercise for many Taiji styles.

I recall sifu Tunks mentioned that he uses
Zhan zhuang - is this a fundamental part of mainland 7* ?
Anyone else use Zhan zhuang in their mantis training ?

[mantis108]

I can't speak for others, but for myself I do practice the Zhan Zhuang as part of the training. I have to say though I use the Wu style (derived from Yang style) Neigong ones instead because it is in my view a very powerful set. It is also very interesting that Wu style Neigong seems to have elements of Shuai Chiao which also can be found in 18 Lohan of PM.

Personally practicing Wu Style Neigong (zhan zhuang) and Taiji Mantis Pai Da (Iron body) together is quite an awesome experience. They compliment each other really well.

Currently, I teach 2 stances out of the 24 from Wu style Neigong to my students along side with the 18 lohan. We also do Kao Da body conditioning instead of the Pai Da, which has a straighter life style requirement. Only when the student is ready and will to make the life style commitment then can we move onto the "hardcore" stuff.

Mantis108

[northernJump]

interesting. My experience has been with the Yang style where I learnt 8 standing postures. I'm not familiar with the 24 Wu Style Neigong stances. Were they all derived from the Yang or did some come later ? Is there some reference material online ?
Zhan Zhuang is not trained as part of my 7* training - its a carry over from the taiji I did a couple of years ago. I'm glad to hear other people find it complimentery to mantis.

[MantisifuFW]

Mantis108,

I was happy to hear your take on Kao Da and Pai Da. I do the same thing in my classes. Only my advanced students move on to the Pai Da training because of the commitment necessary.

As for the Zhan Zhaung, we do it also. However, first I have them do the Lesser and then greater heavenly circulation exercises for about a year and a half. I find that most students get a feel for their energy after that and the Lou Han Gong is much easier to teach and understand.

Great topic,

Steve Cottrell

[ninjaboy]

hey guys, are there any references in english regarding kao da and pai da for me to contemplate and understand further??

sincerely,
neil armstrong

[mantis108]

Hi NorthernJump,

Sorry for the late reply, I lost track of the thread.

"interesting. My experience has been with the Yang style where I learnt 8 standing postures. I'm not familiar with the 24 Wu Style Neigong stances. Were they all derived from the Yang or did some come later ?

If I am not mistaken, Yang style has "Chuanji Zhuang" (kind of a horse stance with the arms holding out to the front). I think there is another that is in Bow & Arrow stance as well, I can't recall the name for that one though. These ones can be found in the Wu style's 24 but under different names. Some of Wu style's Neigong stances (the Yang Session 12 stances) are also reminiscent of Shuai Chiao stances. This is quite evident in the applictions of Wu style Taijiquan. So IMHO Wu style Neigong would be derived from Yang and has influences of Shuai Chiao. One thing of note is that even in PM's 18 Lohan Gong there are elements of Shuai Chiao exist when it comes to martial intent. I suppose no style is an island.

"Is there some reference material online ?"

As far as I am aware, there isn't. But you may be able to get a hold of couple of books by Cheng Tian Hung. One of them listed the 24 stances. I was also given a more detailed list, which I believe is only given to the indoor students, by my Sifu.

"Zhan Zhuang is not trained as part of my 7* training - its a carry over from the taiji I did a couple of years ago. I'm glad to hear other people find it complimentery to mantis."

Great to hear you train in Zhan Zhuang as well. Thanks for sharing the info and a great topic. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108

[mantis108]

Great to hear from you. :) Thank you for sharing your training methodology as well. Seems like we are going on a similar path. Speaking of 18 Lohan, I was teaching the first road and trying to explain the Qi concept to them. I decided to avoid using the term Qi but a pre-teen student just said "oh, you mean Qi". lol... and he said he know that from TV. so... Anyway, I told them to go slow and try to imagin scooping up water without spilling them and they should get the warm tingling sensations in the hands which the kid got as well. It was just one of those happy movements when students get a good grapse of what you are trying to come across. So I agree that Lohan Gong is a great starter set for Qigong in PM as well.

I am also looking forward for the new issue of "Mantis Quarterly" which you have send. I am under the impression the there is a website for it as well. May be you can release further details. It is very encouraging that the Mantis Quarterly project is going full steam ahead.

Ninjaboy,

Please feel free to check on those topic disscussions in my forum. You are welcome to post your questions there as well.

Warm regards

Robert Hui (Mantis108)

[Brazil Mantis]

Great topic!

We do not practice Zhang Zhuang as part of PM classes here in Brazil, but we started a special course of Yi Quan in our Mo Kwoon with a chinese master from Beijing called Cai Wen Yü. He was student of Yao Zong Xun who studied with Yi Quan founder Wang Xiang Zhai.

I believe that Zhang Zhuang could be considerer as an important training for PM because as I understand in PM we use diferent kind of power, normally using all body for a punch or kick. What I feel in Yi Quan training (not only Zhang Zhuang but also Shi Li) is an opportunity to develop power.

As my Si-Hing Steve Cottrell told, Lo Hung Gong is much easier to teach and to understand/feel.

Sincerely,
Samuel Mendonça

[mantis108]

Welcome to the discussion and thank you for sharing your view. Nice to hear from a Kung Fu brother of Sifu Cottrell.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Dachengdao]

Hi Friends!
Sorry to join the discussion so late, but better late than never! I just wanted to add that Dachengquan (which is the sister art to Yiquan invented by GM Wang Xiang Zhai) gave my mantis an unbelievable eplosive quality in a short period of time. Even if you only do one hour of zhan zhuang daily, you will see the difference in your mantis right away. Check out my yahoo group, Dachengdao for an instructional article on how to do zhan zhuang if you don't know already.
BTW, it's nice to see Sifu Cottrell also practices zhuang in his training! I hope all of you are supporting his great effort to put Mantis in its proper place among US martial arts...please subscribe to Mantis Quarterly and submit articles/info/photos. Together we can be a strong voice for mantis players around the world.

[northernJump]

'only' 1 hour ! - I'm happy if I manage 20 minutes standing a day. I notice that you've got 12% of voters on your zhan zhuang poll doing 1 hr or more.

btw how can I find the article you mentioned ? I signed up for the group but I can't seem to find it. Thanks.

[northernJump]

ha!, found it. from the site:

Please take a look at message #14.
Click on Messages to the left of screen, and enter 14 in the box, or
click on the link for the first page of messages.

Thanks for making this info available.

here is a link directly to that message:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Dachengdao/message/14
you may need to be logged in to access the link.

[Brad]

When you guys talk about standing practice for an hour is that in one posture or do you alternate postures after a certain amount of time?

[Dachengdao]

I appreciate you putting up the link to my group, and I hope the information is useful.
To answer Brad, yes Zhan Zhuang is one posture that should be held a minimum of one hour daily, but later you can add other postures as well as movement. When you work your way up to an hour, you will see the power for yourself. I can talk about it more, but it will seem like a bunch of hype. That's one reason I started the yahoo group so I can give this information and support for free so people won't say I'm making fantastic claims about DCQ just to suck people in for their money. I too was skeptical until I saw wheel chair bound persons in China get up and walk after spending a few months with my teacher, Wang Xuan Jie. I was drawn to the art as a way to supplement my Mantis, but I really want Americans to get the health benefits from it. Give it a try for yourself and post your progress and ask questions in the Dachengdao group.

[WanderingMonk]

Dachengdao,

Let me borrow your expertise. What do you think about the information contained in the following link.

http://users2.ev1.net/~stma/pangen.html

Is it any good? Although it is xinyi standing post, I figure Dachen's standing post wouldn't be too much different from its cousin.

thanks

wm

[Dachengdao]

Hi WM,
Thanks for providing this link. The standing here is very good and so is the explaination. This is probably the method my grand teacher learned from his Xingyi studies. He noted before that most students detest standing and much prefer the movements of Xingyi. He stressed the basics, and standing is fundamental in his systems of Dachengquan & Yiquan. First time students must do standing in order to develop power. Advanced students must continue standing to develop their mind/spirit. One caveat regarding the standing position in the link: Outward turning of the palms is contraindicated for beginners. The palms should be facing your clavicle level (and higher once it is possible to hold the hands up without effort). Sometimes it is recommended to turn the palms outward to treat anxiety, panic attacks, post traumatic stress disorder, and some other neurosis, but this should be done upon the advice of an expert.
WRG

[mantis108]

Hi Wandering Monk,

Thank you for sharing the article. It is one of the best translated works thus far IMHO.

The impressive thing is that the translator has a very good grapse of both languages. So the piece is really well done.

It is equally impressive that many of the details concerning the internal training are addressed in a down to earth no mumbo jumbo hocu pocus way. This makes the practice of Xingyi very systematic and comprehensive. It is clear that the importance of training protocol - understanding the body, develops the function and then acquires skill. It also points to the organic and holistic nature of the practice which in my mind is most important when it comes to internal practice. I particularly enjoy the spitting and swallowing of San Ti Shi. It is rather amazing that how a little paragraph sums up the process of transforming the essence from qi to li and then to Jing through Fixed Energy post [also note the dual function of building lower body strength and establishing the marco-cosmic orbit qi circulation route] to San Ti post in the Standing Post Skill (Zhan Zhuang Gong).

There are many articles out there dealing with Zhan Zhuang but few have achieved to point the way to transforming nurturing qi to function jing as clear as this one.

Once again, thank you for sharing a wonder article. :)

Manti108

[WanderingMonk]

Dachengdao,

Thanks for the reply and your insight on hold palm facing the clavicle level.


Mantis108,

Too much praise. After all, I didn't write the article. I just point to it.

Thanks for pointing out the insight on "San Ti Shi", I'll read the article over and pay more attention.

wm

[northernJump]

looking around the rest of that site you can see that translater - Joseph Crandall has translated an enormous amount of material on the internal arts - mainly bagua and Xingyi and sunlutang's taiji book.

http://users2.ev1.net/~stma/books1.htm