Importance of Lineage?

[Grabula]

With the preoccupation of some CMA practitioners with lineage or the roots of their particular art, wing chunners seem to be as preoccupied if not more so at times, is it really that important? Or is it more important who you are learning it from in the now and how you learn to apply the skills you recieve from them?

[Atleastimnotyou]

Grabula,
I have asked myself that many times while reading on this forum. As far as lineage goes, while the history can be interesting, i think the most important thing is whether or not your sifu and sigung have real skill. And it is also important that they can lead you to the "Wing Chun pool" so you may drink. For me, i don't really care that my lineage goes back to Yip Man. What matters to me is that my sigung, Kenneth Chung and my Sifu, Carl Dechiara have real skill and that their skill is what i want to have.

[tparkerkfo]

Just my perspective,

Yes lineage matters to some degree. It matters that there is substance in your lineage and that you have access to it. But that doesn't mean you yourself would gain that substance. Nor do I think it precludes someone from a non-lineage from gaining substance. But I do think for most it helps.

Yip Man is by far the most numerous lineage around, and by most accounts, Yip Man had substance. However, look at all the lineages coming from him. Not all are that good. Some are, and some are not.

In my experience, I love having a connection to someone close to the source. I think there is much better transmition. However, there are times I get confused and simply don't understand. My sihings have helped me understand as much as my teachers. So it may not be the lineage "name", but others can help as well who have less skill.

So, I think a good lineage is important if one wants to have a good understanding and foundation, but it doesn't mean you will have that skill.
Tom
________
Kitchen Measures (http://kitchenmeasures.com/)

[burnsypoo]

http://www.whitecraneinstitute.com/artsofcombat/lineage.htm

[Grabula]

tparkerkfo said


I think there is much better transmition

I can understand the concept of the telephone game, as things get ****her from the source then things become muddled. However, is it possible that things can be muddled from the get go. For example some claim that some instructors often hide things from their students for various reasons, some just may not be understanding it like they should. It just seems to me that lineage seeking might be sort of empty when it comes to how viable your skills are.

[yuanfen]

"Lineage" these days IMO does not have a fixed meaning-it can vary in the quality of the links even though the lineage holder may be or may have been good. Quality comtrol is a real problem with lineages.You have folks claiminga lineage who have takena few lessons from someone who might or might not be good in the first place.

A key issue for newbies is to geta sense of how good a potential sifu's teacher really was/is and how long and well did the potential sifu really study with his teacher. Lots of made up resumes in wing chun. Hence- caveat emptor.

An individual with limited exposure to a good teacher can be athletically good but his/her ability to impart the best of the art to others down the line can be flawed, and could be conveying athleticism rather than wing chun skills and/or concepts.

[Lindley]

Grabula, the key to your question is your word "preoccupation".
I agree that one should not be too focused on it, as some Wing Chun camps seem to emphasize history and who they know etc. The importance of a lineage lies more in verification of the Sifu and the school. The lineage, as some have pointed out, is empty on its own. However, it gains meaning when true relationships are involved. The value of lineage to me is that my students have more resources available. They have a "family" they belong to, they can visit and hang out with. It prevents me from biasing their training and ideas. They can rest assure that their Sifu put in the time and did not learn his Kung Fu from just video tapes, books, or attending seminars. If a Sifu claims to be of a certain lineage, but has no relationship with people of the lineage, then you see the lineage has little meaning.

One important thing to note is when someone is an inquiring student with no experience in Wing Chun (or any martial art). Someone, who owns a school, with some Martial Arts (especially Wing Chun) experience could really impress you with their skill. This person may be the seminar/video tape guy with a "knack" to pick it up. In fact, someone who has been in a lot of street fights could do the same. The difference is the long run - could they really help you to gain what you are looking for, including the skills they display? Not impossible, but not likely.

Kung Fu is not all about combat and fighting either. Not everyone trains or becomes involved with Martial Arts to be physically skilled. The essence of Kung Fu is truly being of high standards of character. Honor and courage, trust and commitment. It is extremely powerful to be regarded as someone people can trust and believe in, as opposed to someone who just can beat up people or plays great chi sao. If your Sifu's skills are good, that is fine. However, it is really a test of his/her ability to transmit valuable knowledge and experience to allow you, the student, to achieve your goals for the Kung Fu training.

"Martial Arts is honestly expressing yourself..."

Good luck in your Kung Fu

[azwingchun]

I think lineage is very useful in some aspects, mainly the obvious being, proof of who you are and where/who you learned from. But on the other hand I don't think that this should be a be all for choosing a Sifu.

I say this due to mine as well as some of my Wing Chun brothers who left a certain organization experience. When we left, our Sifu wasn't too happy to say the least. He told us that we had lost our lineage by doing so (whatever that meant). I believe this is ridiculous. If you and your son/daughter have a spat and deny each other, it doesn't change your bloodline.

With that said, in a case where someone chooses to leave and go on there own, does this change their credentials? Does this make them less a teacher? Just curious what everyone's opinion is.

BTW, the reason I bring this up is this same Sifu had a student who he actually promoted to Sifu himself. Then when this guy left, he bad mouthed him and used to tell us he wasn't very good. So, now this guy looses credibility with anyone who checks into his background.



;)

[Grabula]

What guarentees that there isn't some failure in transmission on down the line between you and those before you? If the guy who is teaching you now is teaching you stuff that is effective and works well then what? What if you find out later his wing chun differs drastically from those on the branch higher then him?

[Atleastimnotyou]

Originally posted by azwingchun
[B]I think lineage is very useful in some aspects, mainly the obvious being, proof of who you are and where/who you learned from. But on the other hand I don't think that this should be a be all for choosing a Sifu.

I say this due to mine as well as some of my Wing Chun brothers who left a certain organization experience. When we left, our Sifu wasn't too happy to say the least. He told us that we had lost our lineage by doing so (whatever that meant). I believe this is ridiculous. If you and your son/daughter have a spat and deny each other, it doesn't change your bloodline.

With that said, in a case where someone chooses to leave and go on there own, does this change their credentials? Does this make them less a teacher? Just curious what everyone's opinion is.




If someone breaks from their Sifu, they are still apart of that lineage as long as they do wing chun the way they were taught. If they start doing it another way they can no longer represent that lineage. just my opinion

[azwingchun]

If someone breaks from their Sifu, they are still apart of that lineage as long as they do wing chun the way they were taught. If they start doing it another way they can no longer represent that lineage. just my opinion

I can agree or see what you are saying, but, it still doesn't change your lineage. Example is on the Wing Chun Conference VCD Ip Ching talks about asking Ip Man if he could change the punch in Bui Gee. This doesn't change his lineage because Ip Man did it differently.

Though, at the same time, I think that your students should be told about the changes and possibly why. If they don't then 50 years from now our students students will be on this forum fighting over lineage and who has the real Wing Chun. LOL!!!! :D

[sel]

Originally posted by azwingchun

I can agree or see what you are saying, but, it still doesn't change your lineage. Example is on the Wing Chun Conference VCD Ip Ching talks about asking Ip Man if he could change the punch in Bui Gee. This doesn't change his lineage because Ip Man did it differently.


he also made a funny joke there about "he wasn't woken up at 3 o'clock in the morning to learn it" lol

the masters who were there, training with yip man, they all know the truth. they know exactly how long william cheung trained with yip man and in what capacity (14 months from the age of 14 and never lived with yip man), they don't bother to get into the argument publicly because they are all having a great time privately laughing at william's fairy tale story. william's nickname in hongkong is "the king of BULLS**T".

which makes me wonder about william cheung students. of course they believe in his story because they have to. if you don't believe 100% in your master, how can you believe that what he is teaching you is 100% ?

Lindley said:
"Kung Fu is not all about combat and fighting either. Not everyone trains or becomes involved with Martial Arts to be physically skilled. The essence of Kung Fu is truly being of high standards of character. Honor and courage, trust and commitment. It is extremely powerful to be regarded as someone people can trust and believe in, as opposed to someone who just can beat up people or plays great chi sao. If your Sifu's skills are good, that is fine. However, it is really a test of his/her ability to transmit valuable knowledge and experience to allow you, the student, to achieve your goals for the Kung Fu training."

"Martial Arts is honestly expressing yourself..."

very well said. expressing yourself honestly would extend to your own personal story as well, not only to be able to transmit the teachings to your students.