History Questions

[tparkerkfo]

Yup, more on this topic. LOL

I am just trying to piece things together. How many lineages have Ng Mui as the founder? So far I can find only three

Sum Nung
Yik Kam
Yip Man

These systems all seem to have certain things in common.

As I did some searching, I found more seem to link themselves to Gee Shim

Gee Shim Weng Chun
Hung Fa Yi
Chan Yiu Min (Chan Wah Shun lineage, which throws me for a loop)
Dai Fa Min Kam (Seems to be the source of Weng Chun)

Then there are two others that claim different lineage
Pan Nam- Yat Chum Um Jee, a female nun
Pao Fa Lien-Dai Dong Fung a male monk

It seems there are two groups. Wing Chun and Weng Chun. Wing Chun being linked to Ng Mui and Weng Chun being linked to Gee Shim. The more I think about all this, the more I think they really are two distinct styles that at some point have become intertwined. In the mix may very well be White Crane, Hung Kuen, other Hakka Arts, and maybe some taoist stuff from the white crane temple Ermie.

But there are some weird things. Most of the Weng Chun stuff includes Dai Fa Min Kam. Many of these style appear to be similar. However, Yuen Kay San claims him as their ancestor, but they are clearly difffernt to the other Dai Fa Min Kam people, and closer to the Ng Mui based Yip Man and Yik Kam families. Though Wong Wah Bo is linked to Yuen Kay San as well, and that is a stem for Yip Man style.

Then there is a Chan Wah Shun grand student claiming Weng Chun roots and Gee Shim. This is odd as most others claim Ng Mui from this branch. Perhaps confusion or adoption of Weng Chun history.

While looking at Roots of wing chun, I noticed another interesting point. Hung Fa Yi story stated that Hung Gun Biu swore to secrecy and developed the Ng Mui story as a cover. This is great except only Wong Wah Bo and Yik Kam seems to have kept that secret. Dai Fa Min Kam certainly did not as most of his lineage points to Gee Shim. The ties to Yip Man wing chun really amazes me with regards to HFY.

I am starting to rethink some things. Nothing earth shattering. I think I have heard much of this before in bits and pieces. Perhaps The Gee Shim person taught the people on the red boats a sort of martial art that is related to Hung Gar and Weng Chun. Explains the pole and many core movmemnts. Another group brought in something close to what is now known as Wing Chun. Some overlap occured and explains Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai. There is probably some white crane as well. Some suggest Ng Mui may have known white crane. Ng Mui was said to have lived in Szechuan where Ermei is, so perhaps that relates some how as well. The stories intermix as do some of the styles. Dai Fa Min Kam and Wong Wah Bo become the main two propigators of these two systems that are different, yet linked. Others continue to refine and polish, others continue to build. The systems take off.

Gee Shim continues on his way and Hung Gar us born before or after the red boats.

Not clear, but indeed interesting.
Tom
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[Phenix]

Tom,


So what is Weng Chun system? That is a question.

[reneritchie]

Hendrik, stop trolling.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Guys,

Actually, I think that is a good guestion. You would think I would pay attention to what has been discussed. LOL. I think these topics come up all the time and either I miss them, or I read them and forget them. LOL

But really, what is weng chun? I think that is an important question. Some seem to make a large distinction. I have seen it used in Pan Nam, Gee Shim, and a few others. I have seen it refer to white crane as well. Though I am confused about how this term reflects white crane. Is it just a region thing, or is it a seperate style? White crane has several, 4 maybe, branches: eating, sleeping, screeming, and another one. And these are in Fujian. But how does Weng Chung connect to the styles? Don't know.

My thoughts are that weng chun may be a shaolin art that Dai Fa Min Kam learned and passed down. Maybe there is something to the story. But I am still confused as to Yuen Kay Shan connection to Dai Fa Min Kam.

The opera members would have studied many styles I think. Some for pure show, and others not. I think there is a tradition of many styles on the boats, no? It would be interesting to see if there are any historical books on the red boats. The opera is famous and I would think some one would have done the research.

Anyways, back to the topic. What exactly IS Weng Chun. Is it just a different character with a different meaning, but the same system? Or is it a seperate system with amazing overlap?

Tom
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[KPM]

Hi Tom!

But really, what is weng chun? I think that is an important question.

---I agree. The only method that I am even a little familiar with that uses the term is what Andreas Hoffman is teaching. And it does seem to be very different in content than what I know as "Wing Chun." Enough to be considered an entirely different system? I'm not sure.

My thoughts are that weng chun may be a shaolin art that Dai Fa Min Kam learned and passed down. Maybe there is something to the story. But I am still confused as to Yuen Kay Shan connection to Dai Fa Min Kam.

---From what I understand (and Rene can clarify), YKS's main teacher was Fok Bo Cheun (student of Wong). Later in his career he learned some refinements and "finishing touches" from Fung Siu Ching (student of Kam). But his WCK was still primarily from the Wong Wah Bo lineage.

Anyways, back to the topic. What exactly IS Weng Chun. Is it just a different character with a different meaning, but the same system? Or is it a seperate system with amazing overlap?


---I tend to agree that there seems there may have been two different systems developing in parallel on the Red Boats. I'm sure these guys got together and compared notes, which would explain lots of overlap. But maybe some preferred one emphasis or approach and some the other. It sure seems that there are two similar but divergent methods....one descending from Wong Wah Bo, the other from Dai Fa Min Kam. I'm not familiar enough yet with methods coming down from any of the other Red Boat ancestors to say how they fit into the picture.

Keith

[dezhen2001]

Fu-pow said on the Southern Forum:
People like to reduce the history of martial arts to single "pure" lineages. This is ludicrous. Kung Fu history is incestuous. What I mean is that actual lineages (not the recorded ones) blend together and split apart again over and over again throughout Chinese MA history. So never get into the trap of thinking you study a "pure" style and someone elses is "adulterated". i thought that was apt to this thread when i read it :)

dawood

[t_niehoff]

dezhen2001, very good! Of course, the "pure blood" snobs won't buy it since being of "pure blood" was part of the marketing that sold them in the first place. TN

Terence

[reneritchie]

Weng Chun is the name of a county in Fujian province, China. During the dynastyic succession and subsequent depolulation of the coastal area, many in Fujian fled inland. Following, economic opportunities led others to seek to re-balance population distributions. This and other factors led to mass immigrations from Fujian, through Guangdong and Guangxi, into Sichuan, and back.

Weng Chun county was also the birthplace of White Crane Boxing (not the Tibetain derived kind). This art travelled with the (often young, unattached male) immigrants into Guangdong. One of the places this art took purchase was the Red Junk Opera Companies (one of their most famous members and leaders, Lee Man-Mao, was a White Crane boxer).

White Crane back then was not as it is now. Indeed, most systems, though all will claim purity back to the founder, were less organized, less refined, etc. (additional forms, additional elaboration, additional refinement usually happend over generations). Instead, it consisted of a few core sets, and more San Sik than To Lo.

The name Weng Chun (Perpetual Spring) is very romantic, and feeds into the rebellious nature that was fostering in Guangdong at the time. These weren't necessarily anti-Qing, mostly weren't pro-Ming, but were anti-authority (even local, non-Qing authority). For more on all that, see the history of the opium wars, the militia movements, the unequal treaties, the Taiping Rebellion, and the Red Turban Rebellion, and no doubt the Weng Chun name appealed to them.

With the Fujian art, the local Guangdong arts already in the region, and perhaps the Hakka who had similar migration and settling patterns, several new arts arose, including Hung Ga, and what we now know as Weng Chun Kuen.

The Chinese of the time, for the most part (unless they'd gone through the examination process seeking government positions) weren't that literate, and the nature of their language is such that different characters can sound almost identical.

See Hendrik's article on the Shanghai connection for one theory on the origin of the Wing Chun Kuen variation, otherwise its entirely possible (and annectdotally evident) people varied back and forth, even within lineage, as to which version they used.

As to what is now considered Weng Chun Kuen, during the late 19th century, Fung Siu-Ching apprenticed to Dai Fa Min Kam aboard the Red Junks and learned the Weng Chun Kuen practiced there, including boxing, dummy, and pole (I assume knives, but the former three are almost always emphasized).

He then left the junks and began to teach, including the Dong's, Tang, the Lo's etc. They preserved his teachings, probably each with their own understandings.

(Gotta go back to work, will continue later and get into Chan Yiu-Min as well)

[Phenix]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Hendrik, stop trolling.



Seriously,

Weng Chun is different things for different people.

Some is about the White Crane system from Fujian
Some is about the evelasting hall
Some is about ......

Another question is how to define Weng Chun system?
What is the characteristics? What is the uniqueness?


IMHO, it is ok for anyone to belive on what they want to belive. However, a Story has to have a big picture and details.....
I can recieve all and everyone's claim but I have a right to decide what to accept right?


Hendrik

[t_niehoff]

reneritchie wrote:

Indeed, most systems, though all will claim purity back to the founder, were less organized, less refined, etc. (additional forms, additional elaboration, additional refinement usually happend over generations). Instead, it consisted of a few core sets, and more San Sik than To Lo. . . . As to what is now considered Weng Chun Kuen, during the late 19th century, Fung Siu-Ching apprenticed to Dai Fa Min Kam aboard the Red Junks and learned the Weng Chun Kuen practiced there, including boxing, dummy, and pole (I assume knives, but the former three are almost always emphasized). . . . He then left the junks and began to teach, including the Dong's, Tang, the Lo's etc. They preserved his teachings, probably each with their own understandings. RR

Good point. IMHO the important thing is to recognize that everyone in the past has and that we continue today to "preserve the teachings", whether weng chun or wing chun, with individual understanding and skills -- IOWs these things aren't, and can't be, set in stone and unchanging. As we are all individuals, with unique sets of physical talents, intelligence, attitudes, experience, etc., our understanding and skills will naturally vary from individual to individual. So, no two people will ever have the same skills and same understanding of the same material. The method and tools to implement our fighting method may remain the same (like the axioms of geometry), but there is no way to get everything that one person knows and understands from a lifetime of study and practice, let alone their personal skill level (which permits them to do what they do), tranmitted intact from person to person. Consequently, every time the art is transmitted from one person to another, the best we can hope to get across is the "gist" -- the core or essence (the axioms and the method of using these axioms to self-educate) -- and let the individual develop from there. TN

As I see it, the tools, concepts, mechanics, etc. is WCK and we all share these things; the method or textbook that attempts to transmit the material is lineage (some person's organization of the material and means to self-educate). How we use these things -- how well or how poorly -- is entirely individual. The axioms of geometry belong to geometry, not any certain textbook of geometry. How well we can use them depends on us, not what text we used to learn them. But when I hear folks talking about the examples of using/applying the axioms contained in their textbook as the only way or the best way to use them, or start talking about the "purity" of our textbook, or that their textbook is "superior" to someone else's, then I think they have mistaken the messenger (lineage) for the message (text). TN

Terence

[captain]

recently,in the uk,i saw a documentary on the japanese
attacks on china just before ww2 [the one in color].it was
all rather brutal and nasty,and i at once,saw how utterly
necessary something like wck was.i would imagine that
the impetus to learn the style would be very much heightend.
has anyone ever come accross that website where some
japanese karate students were actually quite rude about
how working class the chinese and kung fu are.?i think
as much as lineage interests some of you,the idea of a
class structure in martial arts is also curious.

[FIRE HAWK]

Hi does anybody know anything about Fujian Wing Chun Kuen according to the book complete Wing chun by authors Robert Chu and Rene Ritchie.Fujian Wing Chun represents a group of similar styles said to descend from the Fujian Siu Lam Jee(SHAOLINSI or YOUNG FOREST TEMPLE)Legends hold that JEE SHIM taught the martial arts in the Wing Chun Dien(ALWAYS SPRING HALL)of the temple.Following Siu Lam s destrction ,several of his disciples were said to have spread his teachings includeing FONG SAI YUK,and HU HUI GAN who brought the art to Guangdong.The basic curriculum includes FA KUEN (VARIEGATED FIST),MUI FA BAAT GWA (PLUM BLOSSOM EIGHT TRIGRAMS),PING YAO KUEN(LEVEL SMOOTH BOXING),FUT JEUNG (BUDDHAs PALM),BAAT SIK DAN DA (EIGHT FORM SINGLE HIT),LIEN WAN KAO DA (CONTINUOUS CAPTURE HIT),JONG KUEN (DUMMY BOXING),and LUK DIM BOON GWUN (SIX AND A HALF POINT POLE)This seems to be a very strange style of Wing Chun from FUJIAN PROVINCE does anybody know anything about this style. And is BAAT SIK DANDA(EIGHT FORM SINGLE HIT)a san sao separate techniques style like GUO LAO wing chun . And this is what Sifu hoffman of Chi Sim Weng Chun told me. Hi Robert, we have in Jhee Shim Wing Chun/Weng Chun Baat Siong Da Sau and Baat Dan Da Sau. It is a San Sau exercise. One partner strikes from 8 direction, the other partner defends with one hand and attack with the other hand (siong). Or he controll one hand with Lap Sau and defend and attack with the other hand (Dan).
Andreas Hoffmann

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Rene,

Thanks for the info. I think you do a fine job putting things into a historical perspective which I beleive is inseperable to the arts development.

White Crane seems to play a pivital part. I wonder how much is coincidence and how much is actual. It seems there is a lot of confusion over names and such. Often the stories for the northen and southern shaolin temple are mixed up. The name wing chun in white crane is often blured as is Fong Wing chun. I think that was white crane's creator. And other things.

It seems that weng chun white crane is one style. Weng Chun is another. And Wing Chun is a third. Throw in a pinch Hung Gar for good measure. Mix all this on the red boats durring a revolutionary time and what do you get?

For the sake of discussions, I think I am going to take the POV that Weng Chun styles are different from Wing Chun. This would simplify discussion on the list and allow every ones historical and physical learning to stand unchallenged. I personally see enough to make a distinction between the arts of Dai Fa Min Kam and Wong Wah Bo. Except I am confused how it influenced Yuen Kay San lineage since they don't seem to have the ear marks that I associate with Dai Fa Min Kam. Though I am not sure I even have enough info to say what came from him. LOL.

Not sure what my point here is. Just rambling. I just feel we are searching for a grand unification theory when in reality there may not be a singularity at all. Maybe the origins and legends are more in line than I gave credit for. I kind of like that incestious comment that was made earlier. Obvious the arts did not exist in a vaccum. Each art must have been influenced by each other as well as cultural norms, values, and beleifs as well as the political enviornment of the time.

Could Weng Chun be a mix of shaolin and white crane from Gee Shim? Could Wing Chun be ermie and White Crane? Could both Wing Chun and Weng Chun have swapped stuff? Mac and PC's have a very different background yet they both have a GUI. Mac users will say that Bill Gates stole the GUI. However, history shows that Xerox Park actually developed it and Mac "aquired" it. I gotta work on stronger analogies but this is the best you get on a couple hours sleep. LOL

Then I wonder, what does it matter. What if Shaolin never existed. What if Wong Wah Bo made up wing chun as a joke. LOL. Does is validate or invalidate any ones wing chun? If I can prove Ng Mui or Gee Shim was the sole creator of wing chun, does it validate any ones wing chun? Nahh.....

Just thinking out loud.
Tom
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[canglong]

"It seems there are two groups. Wing Chun and Weng Chun." Tom

A good starting point what are the differences in the chinese characters wing and weng and do they play any significant role in this history?

[Geezer]

Captain Wrote>

the japanese attacks on china just before ww2

I take it your talking about the Rape of Nanking, if so check these out, they're about Nanking and Unit 731,

http://www.princeton.edu/~nanking/html/main.html

http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~dyue/wiihist/germwar/germwar.htm

The link on Unit 731 has some disturbing pictures from the terrible experiements they performed on POWs. If you have a weak stomach I suggest you don't view them.

Sheldon

[captain]

did anyone in the uk,see that documentary about that [really]
old kung fu master in a tiny northern village in china?he
was tecahing these little kids kicks and punches,and at the
end of the day,they all settled down [ie,the whole village]
to watch jackie chan films.it was on either channel 4/bbc2
school programmes.

[captain]

er ,teaching i should have written.

[tparkerkfo]

Hello,


Originally posted by canglong
"It seems there are two groups. Wing Chun and Weng Chun." Tom

A good starting point what are the differences in the chinese characters wing and weng and do they play any significant role in this history?

I don't know the real differences nor the subtlties of the language. But they are indeed different. Weng is an actual place, I think it is a county or province or something like that. My dictionary, which discusses the history of the characters was of the weng character as "The unceasing flow of water veins in the earth. Abstracted meaning, duration, perpetuaity, but not eternity." Notice that this meaning says NOT ETERNITY. The root is water. The Weng character is basically the wing character without the box and lines above it that represent the singing or praising.

Wing is not really described except for a definition that says "to recite". Which is interesting since the Weng characters have could be extended to have a metaphorical political significance. Wing could be a play on it and the fact that the opera members "recite". Not sure if I am stretching it. Or perhaps it was just a confusion of the pronunciation.

Weng is a common character and is often seen in any china town. I see it all over the SF china town as well as chinese areas in Sacramento-sacramento doesn't have a central china town. I rarely if ever see the Wing character.

Maybe someone more familar with the language can discuss the differences and the subtlties.

Tom
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