Nei Jia and the dagger/knife (Bagua?)

[Stranger]

As I understand it, Cheng Ting Hua (sp.?) developed the elbow dagger techniques of his lineage's Bagua.

Do any other lineages of Bagua study this weapon or other "knifefighting" skills?

How do Bagua's techniques with the knife compare to those of South-East Asian martial arts (ie. kali, silat, escrima, kuntao, etc.)?
Is the knife introduced early or later in the training?

Are dagger techniques commonly taught in the curriculum of other internal arts?

Thanks in advance.

[Leimeng]

~ I have seen Gao and Liang Zhen Pu dagger/knife "forms" in a formalized fashion. I am sure that other systems have it as well.
~ With proper martial training one can take any item and make it a weapon. I saw a septugenarian BaGua guy from BeiJing use standard chair in a series of BaGua changes.
~ The only weapons I have seen that causes any serious difficulty with BaGua that I have seen is rope-darts and steel whips. Everyone I have ever seen work with those weapons in a BaGua fashion (and I am talking some of the best), has ended up cracking their head too many times for both their ego and sanity. However, they could perform practically flawless techniques and forms in longfist styles using these weapons.
~ Some forms of escrima and arnis utilize many principles that are simular to the internal arts. San Miguel and Pekiti for example. If you cant find someone to teach you the BaGua knife stuff, then you might want to explore filipino expressions of knife fighting.
~ Finally, to generate a slight bit of controversy in the thread, and as a good solid reccomendation based on my own personal experiance, I would advise getting a copy of the tape "Fundamentals of the Knife" put out by Mr John Allen from Green Dragon Studios in Ohio. (While you are at it, you might want to get the "Fundamentals of Empty Hand Fighting" tape as well.) His lecture covers a number of very intersting, albiet basic principles in detail that will expand your thoughts about some areas of self defense and fighting. I don't necessarily agree 100% with every he says, but the majority of it makes good sense.
~ I hope this helps some.

Peace,

Sin Loi

Yi Beng, Kan Xue

[Stranger]

Thanks for the response.

Anybody else?

Chris McKinley, don't you train in Bagua knifefighting and come from a Lameco background?

Blacktaoist, don't you study Cheng Bagua under Li Tai Liang (sp.?)? What have you seen?

Count, maoshan, Monkeyslap Too, or any other regular posting big-hitters I've temporarily forgotten: any input would be appreciated?

Thanks in advance.

[count]

I haven't had time to read the forums lately, let alone post. We train short, pointy weapons in our line of bagua. Not just elbow daggers but deerhorns, pens, and piercers too. Also, in connection we train how to deal with cuts, minimize injuries, practical strategy, history, legal and moral ramifications, and other related material.

I would like to find some good elbow daggers if anyone knows of any good sources. The two types are ones with actual cuffs that fit around the arms, and ones with leather wraps the can be bound to the wrists. I'd prefer the ladder since they work well in both directions and can change from forwards grip to a backwards one fairly easily. But curiousty would include the cuffed version which I have been told are only effective in one direction.

[Stranger]

Thanks count.

The Nov. 2002 editon of "Kung Fu / Qigong" made it seem that each weapon of Bagua represented a stylistic influence of one of the early masters.
Tung Hai-Chuan: deer horn knives
Yin Fu: needles
Cheng Ting-Hua: elbow knives
Li Tsun-I: giant broadsword
Chang Chao-Tung: red cross whip

Is it common for the different bagua lineages to train in these specialty weapons?

[Stranger]

The aforementioned article makes no mention of cuffs (either leather or metal) on the elbow knives. They are merely described as ".....large, sturdy, single-edged knives, usually with a slight curve to them."

[Chris McKinley]

Stranger,

Sorry for the late response. I haven't checked in here at KFO in quite a while and just happened to stumble on your post. I make somewhat of a specialty out of applying Baguazhang to bladed weapons combat.

RE: "How do Bagua's techniques with the knife compare to those of South-East Asian martial arts (ie. kali, silat, escrima, kuntao, etc.)?" IME, there simply aren't any 'Bagua knife techniques', per se. Therefore, a direct side-by-side comparison of specific techniques with those of SE Asian arts would not be possible. However, application of Baguazhang principles and movements to a blade does indeed yield an extremely effective method of combat. To answer the spirit of your question, though, I'd have to say that, done right, it can compare quite favorably.

As you mentioned, I also have a background in FMA, so I am able to make comparisons based on years of personal experience with both traditions. My experience, both for weapons AND empty hand combat, is that Baguazhang and Kali complement one another extremely well, strange as that might seem on the surface. IMO, the efficiency, brutality, and no-nonsense approach to combat that SE Asian arts generally exhibit combine well with the fluidity, whole-body power generation, sensitivity, etc. of Baguazhang. As such, it isn't always necessary to view such a comparison as either/or.

In the interests of intellectual honesty, however, I would point out that you are far less likely to find someone who truly knows what they are doing with a knife coming from a Baguazhang perspective than you are to find such a person coming from a SE Asian arts background. That isn't a criticism of Baguazhang's material so much as a result of the fact that bladed combat is part and parcel of SE Asian arts from day one. With Baguazhang, on the other hand, you aren't likely to find many folks who have a lot of depth of experience, skill, and/or knowledge of real-world bladed combat. It's just not where the emphasis is placed in the training. In fact, to my knowledge at this point in time, no other teacher in the United States does anywhere near the level of specific knife work in Baguazhang that I do, and most touch on it rarely if at all.

If you are looking for other alternatives beside Baguazhang or SE Asian martial arts for blade work, I might also suggest you look into Western European dagger styles, the knife material of Systema, John Perkins's Attack Proof material, and even various Native American approaches. And of course there's always Tanto-Jutsu and other related skills from Japanese arts.

I hope this has helped. If you have further questions about a Bagua approach to blade work, feel free to email me.

[Shooter]

nice

[maoshan]

Peace

Before answering your questions I have to first make a correction,
The Black Taoist primary Cheng style Teacher was the late B.P. Chan. While he did learn a little of Li Tai Liang’s 9 Palace Ba-Gua, Li was primarily our San Shou Coach.
BT told me back when he was learning some of the 9 Palace methods; Li did a Ba-Gua Tiger Hook form with precision and skill. I’m also aware that Li teaches the Dagger as part of his Ba-Gua but I’ve never seen it.

Now as to what styles teach the elbow knives other than Cheng That depends on the instructor.
For example: BT and myself. We both have learned weapons from the Cheng and Yin Styles. Each of these styles has their own characteristics. The elbow knives work perfectly the way Cheng Ting Hua used them but how would Yin Fu have used them?
Think about it. Cheng style with all it’s coiling turning and twisting with elbow knives in hand would effectively turn you into a human propeller. Yin on the other hand is a lot more direct in it’s attack and tends to stab more and slice less as can be depicted by his own weapons the Judges Pen. Liang Zhen Pu’s Ba-Gua is a combination of Cheng and Yin. I’ve seen footage of the president of the Ba-Gua research institute In Beijing (Li Zi Ming’s student) His surname is Ma, Doing the Elbow knives (or Rooster Knives). It was a hot form and he had a good blend of both styles. His changes between methods where quite smooth.

As to how it’s taught, as with most Ba-Gua it’s a progression. After you learn the four basic weapons (Broadsword, Staff, Spear, and double edge Sword) you then can learn Ba-Gua specialty weapons. And by the way LEIMENG, it took me 2yrs of black and blue shins to learn the Chain whip. And I have no difficulty. It’s the same as any weapon. The key is to study that particular weapons attack and defense then you can use it.

But overall, if you’ve trained properly for sometime in BaGuaZhang picking up a knife and using it will be nothing, all weapons are an extension of the hand.
But I also agree with Chris in his assessment of the comparison. There are no particular techniques for the knife. Only tactics and stratgity, the principles handle the rest.

As to specifically dealing with the knife like Chris, I don’t do that in terms of fighting with a knife. Where I come from Knives are pulled on you a lot, so I stress defense against them. Which I think works in terms of using it as well. If you know the defense, to attack will be that much easier.

Now, even though I digressed a little, I agree with Chris’s advice as well, study what you can of what’s available to you. Gain a good understanding of the weapon; combine that with a good foundation In Ba-Gua and you’ll be a force to be reckoned with.

Just my opinion
Hope this helps

Peace

Maoshan

[Black Jack]

Chris,

When you work your baguazhang principles with your kali methods do you tend to favour the reverse grip or forward?

Just curious to see if the baguazhang influenced your grip preference. Myself I am a forward saber grip kinda guy.

[Stranger]

Great posts. Thanks for the responses.

Sorry about the mistake regarding BT's Cheng Bagua teacher. I meant no disrespect.