Chi kung and Allergies/Asthma

[Grinding Hands]

Any of you guys have serious asthma or allergies? Has chi kung helped? Anybody know any ways to relieve allergies naturally? I have a serious case that prevents me from doing alot of things.

[GLW]

Asthma and allergies are two of the more difficult things to deal with...but NOT impossible.

Asthma is the easiest of the two.

First, you need to know your triggers. If exercise triggers your asthma, you do it slowly ...taking your inhaler with you and all of that.... but you DO IT. The body will adapt in such a way that more effort is required to trigger an attack.

If the triggers are things in the air, you take your preventive medicine and do class.

Adding Qi Gong, you have to choose a method that focuses on relaxing the body and calming the mind...NONE of the tension versions or packing Qi versions of Qi Gong.

With asthma, you already have a problem with things constricting in the lungs...packing or holding of breath (as is found in some methods of Qi Gong) will only make this bad part of asthma worse.

A good set...if you can find someone to teach it to you is the 20 Posture for Health and Longevity created by Wang Ziping. If you can't find that, then try for someone who knows the 18 Liangong methods. They both work for asthma.

You begin slowly and focus on relaxing and calming the mind...this will open the lungs more and more...and then during an attack, you can use the calming methods to help reduce the amount of medication you need. As you progress, the amount of meds. needed should reduce.

Allergies are more difficult since they are more systemic and a build up. The same Qi Gong methods I mentioned will work. However, it would be good to find a Dr. of Traditional Chinese Medicine and add in Herbal therapy as well.

Anyway, you start out CONTINUING TO TAKE YOUR MEDICINES. You simply ADD Qi Gong to what you do. Then, over time, you can reduce the amount of medicine you take...hoping to get to none.

Having done this for a number of years, I can tell you that it does work but it takes time. Also, as you progress, you can handle gradual changes in the stuff you are allergic to. Dealing with the rapid changes such as a change in weather over an over again in a short period of time will still require you to keep the meds around.

Face it, if you have allergies and asthma, you will ALWAYS have to pay attention to the amount of rest you get, what you eat, and making sure you drink plenty of fluids. you will also always have a problem dealing with quick changes in the weather and things in the air....so you just keep your meds around.

I started out with an inhaler, prescription allergy meds, prescription asthma meds, etc...

I now have an inhaler...but haven't used it but two times this year....no allergy shots, no prescription meds...over the counter things like claritin...but I prefer herbal allergy medicines...and even those I don't take much.

It took about a year to see big improvements...but they do happen.

[Repulsive Monkey]

The most imporatnt thing to know first of all is whether your asthma is worse on the in breath or the out breath. If it's on the in breath then you would be more suited to doing Kidney qi-gong, id it is on the out breath then doing lung specific qigong would be the most beneficial for you.

If it is general then doing both will be of service but one can be quite definite if the in/out breath aspect is clarified beforehand.

[GLW]

Sorry but I have to point something out here...

Without the diagnosis from a qualified doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine...including pulse reading, tongue, and the old 20 questions... To state that one type of Qi gong or a method that stresses one of the Zhang fu organs over another will help is ...rather premature.

A general Qi gong approach that works ALL of the organ systems...supporting the good functions and improving the bad is about the only approach that can be taken without such a diagnosis.

Even this requires a competent teacher.

The BEST thing to do is to find a good doctor of TCM and a good Qi gong teacher...and hopefully they are the same person.

Qi gong and internal arts CAN definitely help with asthma and allergies...but this is not something that can be done in a specific way without dealing with the individual on a personal basis.

Good luck with it...it can and does work but requires patience and a bit of luck to find a good teacher and a good TCM doctor.

[Grinding Hands]

The Accupunturist said my kidney enerygy was low and had me taking some sour bitter concoction(spelling).

[GLW]

Given that, did they know of a Qi gong teacher or method for you?

If so, their advice would be very helpful....

[Grinding Hands]

He was korean(no offense). And just graduated. He wasnt too keen on chi kung. I need to look for a real TCM guy.

[Grinding Hands]

Oh yeah he used that meridian machine to check.

[GLW]

Finding someone that is REALLY good at pulse diagnosis is something to do. That and then knowing how to turn the diagnosis into a treatment plan.

If you can find someone trained at the Shanghai College Of Chinese Medicine or Beijing...you have a good start.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Why are you insistent upon Shanghai or Beijing when there are more than competent people in his own country or who have trained at places outside of China. Are you trying to say That Beijing and Shanghai have a monopoly on Pulse and Tonhue diagnosis or something?

And suggesting either Lung or Kidney qi-gong in this instance on the in and out breath diagnosis CAN be done without a pulse picture. Because in TCM Asthma originates from the Xu of these particular organs. Obviously not exclusively but there are the main culprits. By doing those specific qi-gongs anyway would be fine if he didn't have Asthma, so where's the problem?

And it's Zang Fu not Zhang Fu.

[GLW]

Actually, I am NOT insistent on those two only. I AM insistent on a TRAINED doctor of TCM. This pretty much excludes a lot of those hailing from Hong Kong, Taiwan, and other places. Many of them claim to have degrees and training from a school of TCM and in reality are not even competent barefoot doctors.

Then you have a number that are trained - sometimes poorly - in Martial ARts and have learned a little bit of TCM.

Credentials are hard to check but if they are from one of the majro schools in china and are graduates, they MAY actually know what they are doing.

Living in a city with perhaps the 4th largest Asian population in the US, I can honestly say that the greater part of doctors of TCM here are NOT qualified. Same goes for those teaching Qi Gong.

Also, having CHRONIC asthma since birth - to the point where I have nearly died of it and spent a year of my life at the National Asthma Center in Denver, I can tell you from personal experience that when you start looking for ways to reduce or eliminate your meds and get into other realms of asthma control, you want EVERY DIAGNOSIS to be done...and pulse is one of the things that can show a lot. It is EASY to say Lung Qi or Kidney Qi...however, that does not say deficient or excess...and to the extremes, too much or too little can sometimes have similar effects. A pulse will indicate this..along with tongue reading, and a few other diagnostic methods.

however, there can be other things that a pulse will catch that feed this... In my case, there was a Yin deficiency illustrated by an almost textbook pulse. The treatment with herbs hit at raising the Lung and Kidney Qi and dealing with the deficiency overall.... and worked well. It was a lot stronger than had it just been "Oh, asthma - Kidney...or Lung and Kidney."

The Qi Gong methods were also tailored for where I was. Starting with things that would strengthen the weak points but also hitting the overall deficiency. Then as things improved, a more balanced approach was the shift.

As for the spelling....EXCUSSSSE ME...(sorry, it is Very hard to do a good Steve Martin on the web).

The advice is there...Find a GOOD and truly trained doctor of TCM and NOT one that is an old guy trained by this backwoods person. Get a diagnosis and a treatment plan...and YES you can get multiple opinions. While they MAY differ somewhat, if you tell one doctor what the other thought, they can say yes or no. They should not be that far apart.

Asthma is NOT like allergies. Asthma and getting it under control can lead to truly life threatening situations depending on the severity of the person's asthma. It should be handled with the utmost caution. It is NO fun turning blue in the nails and lips from lack of oxygen and still being 15 minutes away from the emergency room.

[Repulsive Monkey]

The spelling was vital because even though the H was used as the second letter and wasn't omitted what you said was a completely different word and wasn't the correct Zang as in Zang-fu. If you're gonna be clever and use Chinese words without explaining what they mean to people here (and the majority won't know what the meaning was !) then spelling them right is essential.

Someone who is accurate at taking pulses and tongues doesn't necessarily have to be a Doctor, and again you haven't really answered the question of ewhy they must be from China. It's dead easy to check out people's credentials you just ask them. If they don't check out with a suitable establishment of study, or even still if they don't provide you with anything then you just walk away from then. It's as simple as that, you'd do that for a Martial arts school or anything relse which you wanted to be sure of. For example here in the UK one just asks the British Acupuncture Association and they will let you know who is legit and qualified and who isn't, and there are many highly renowned practitioners in the UK as I am sure there are in the USA and anywhere else. Just requires some effort thats all.

If you know your TCM you will know ecxactly what I mean when I say about Lung and Kidney with Asthma chronic or acute! The pulse WILL obviously give you a clearer picture and observing the tongue both sides, but Asthma from a TCM point of view either falls into the Lung Qi Xu category or the Kidney Qi failing to receive one. Either the Kidneys can't grasp the in breath or the Lungs are too weak to exhale the out breath, and thats TCM. It's quite elementary to understnad in TCM terms that these are both xu conditions, I couldn't understand your insistence on them being so vague as to whether they were Shi or Xu (considering you can't get Shi conditions with the Kidneys I would of thought this was obvious!!?)

I do not deny the severity of asthma because you are not the sole beneficiary of it's nasty symptoms and lethal potentials you know!!!?

I like the blaring generalisation that you make of :
"...if you tell one doctor what the other thought, they can say yes or no. They should not be that far apart...", so when he goes to see a TCM Doctor and the American Doctor says this has nothing whatsoever to do with the Kidneys son!! how do you make that out to be NOT FAR APART???? Of course you are going to get diverging responses and especially if you go visit too many differing opinions.
My advice would be to seek another TCM view to be sure of a substantial diagnosis, even though the one he has got so far sounds acceptable(does it mean that someone fresh out of graduation is useless??? What rubbish!!!), and make sure only if you have doubts that it seems like the correct treatment plan.
If you want to see a Western Doctor then obviously be prepared that they are gonna say something differently and differently too.

Most of all go with hat instills you with most confidence.

[GLW]

"Someone who is accurate at taking pulses and tongues doesn't necessarily have to be a Doctor, and again you haven't really answered the question of ewhy they must be from China. "

Having dealt with some of the US trained folks, their training is limited and the do NOT have the clinical experience. The TCM colleges in China are true medical school programs. They have comps, they have national testing, and they require what is equivalent to internship and residency...in hospitals. The Shanghai College, for example, has the Longhua Hospital that is used for teaching purposes. So...lots of experience with things that a doctor in private practice might never see.

Also, the programs are set and standardized. They took the best of the apprenticeship methods back in the 1950's and codified them. Most of the really high level textbooks are from Beijing and others are from Shanghai...but most of them are from China...NOT places like Taiwan.

Having seen a number of books published originally in China then be published in Hong Kong and other places, I am extremely dubious of those trained other places.

For folks trained in the US, if they are serious, they may get to a certain level but eventually, they do well if they go and do internships in the Chinese system.


"It's dead easy to check out people's credentials you just ask them. If they don't check out with a suitable establishment of study, or even still if they don't provide you with anything then you just walk away from then. "

Actually, this is NOT true. Many people falsify credentials. They have even done it here with getting their Acupuncture License. In fact, the original licensing for the state of Texas was driven by a group that had been in Texas for several years. In actuality, their credentials were less than stellar. However, they got the laws passed (it IS who you know or who knows you) and they worked it around to grandfather themselves but not other more qualified folks. Now the fun part...there ARE people practicing without licenses and the licensing in Texas is NOT exactly a true license.

So...credentials are falsifiable. Take into account the number of people who have "Shaolin Temple" certificates... Credentials are definitely NOT something you can verify easily.

You CAN verify the license...but that, as I showed, only gets you so much information and the licensing varies from state to state. California and New York have some of the most controlled licensing for TCM.

" For example here in the UK one just asks the British Acupuncture Association and they will let you know who is legit and qualified and who isn't, and there are many highly renowned practitioners in the UK as I am sure there are in the USA and anywhere else. Just requires some effort thats all."

There is a BRITISH association. There is NOT a true national association in the US. There may be one day...but right now, .... For example, in Texas (my example since that is where I live), there are two basic organizations (or were...I quit following it out of disgust). There was originally ONE. About 6 or so years ago, they had open elections. The guy who REALLY wanted to be president lost. He then made a big fuss, left the organization and formed a competing one. Now we have two and they both refuse to work with each other. BOTH have a number of people in positions of authority that are quite a bit less than legit and much less than competent.


I am not disputing the role of the Lung and Kidney. I am saying that there may be other things at play. For allergies...no problem. For asthma, care is needed because some people try to go too quickly and it truly can be life threatening.

In my own case, there were extra aspects of deficiencies that would have made basic treatment NOT be completely effective. Outwardly, I looked to be OK but there were other factors.

My point is: First, get a GOOD and THOROUGH examination by a QUALIFIED doctor of TCM. If you have a good way of weeding out the fakes in the UK, power to you. In the US, we do NOT and more's the pity.



I do not deny the severity of asthma because you are not the sole beneficiary of it's nasty symptoms and lethal potentials you know!!!?

I like the blaring generalisation that you make of :
"...if you tell one doctor what the other thought, they can say yes or no. They should not be that far apart...", so when he goes to see a TCM Doctor and the American Doctor says this has nothing whatsoever to do with the Kidneys son!! how do you make that out to be NOT FAR APART???? Of course you are going to get diverging responses and especially if you go visit too many differing opinions."

I was NOT referring to seeing a TCM doctor and then a Western MD. I was referring to seeing a TCM doctor and then a second opinion from another TCM doctor. Comparing TCM diagnosis to Western is way apples to oranges. If you diagnose using TCM, you treat using TCM for that diagnosis. Virtually all studies I have seen that try to mix the two met with resounding failure. They have similar ideas at times but they simply don't map into each other.

I may have been a bit imprecise because not too many people going to a TCM doctor would go for a second opinion with another TCM doctor. However, I have known a number of people that have seen several doctors of TCM before finding one that knew what they were doing and that helped. Referrals from friends or second opinions IN THE SAME TREATMENT MODALITY (TCM to TCM) are about the only way you can check things out.

The old joke: "What do you call the guy who passed his Med. Exams with the lowest score?"

DOCTOR...

Is true.


I agree with the last part:

"Most of all go with what instills you with most confidence."

And actually, we are not that far off, I am just saying to make sure that the TCM doctor he sees does a good diagnosis and one that he feels comfortable with.

[crumble]

I've met a very good internal martial artist who has allergies. So I feel compelled to say that western medicine shouldn't be overlooked in your attempts to get well.

It's my general impression that chi kung mostly helps people like exercise helps people, better circulation makes better health. But it sounds like other people have experience with specific exercises curing specific ailments. The final chapter hasn't been written, that's for sure...

Anyway, is it true that eating habits really influence asthma and allergies? That's my (mis-?) informed impression and might be another thing to check out before looking for medications.

-c

[RAF]

If you have been properly diagnosed for asthma (there is a test where they gradually induce the asthma while measuring some aspect of lung capacity (FEV) as they increase the dosage and this is really the only accurate test to date. Its a pain because they eventually induce the asthma and then give you a bronchodialator to bring you out).

If they find it, then you should really do a corticosteroid inhaler at the appropriate dosage. A number of studies indicate that if the underlying inflammation is not treated, your lungs may remodel themselves and 20 years down the road you have irreversable damage.

Interestingly, John Hopkins Unversity is testing some old Chinese drugs.

Let me give you a couple of sources to help you:

1) For Allergy and Asthma, Herbs can Help and Harm Chinese Herbs, Echinacea Highlighted in New Research, Norra MacReady, March 7, 2000 Web MD Health.
(Studies at John Hopkins and mout Sinai School of Medicine, Chinese herb mixture known as MTSD, Ding Chan Tang and dexamethasone (potent steroid drug) were tested on mice. MSTD proved as effective as dexamethasone at reduciing the lung's extreme sensitivity to substances that provoked asthma. DCT (Ding Chan Tang) had a similar effect but not as much.

MSTD also significantly reduced lung inflammation and mucus accumulation.

2) Grasping for Breath: New Drugs are Key to a good Life with Asthma, New York Times, October 19, 1999.

3) Adult Asthma Patients often Misuse Medications: Physicans Say the Long-Term Implications are Serious, Gary Frankenfeld, RN, Web MD Health, 12/10/99. "Dvorin says undertreatment may acutally lead to physiologic changes---theres a lot of new data that indicated undertreating of asthma may lead to an airway remodeling problem. The remodeling referst to lung damage that's permanent and irreversable. So patients should be evaluated by an asthma specialist.

4) Obesity Linked to Asthma in Adults, 7/9/01 New York Times

5) Antioxidant May Protect Against Asthma Allergy, 2000, 55, 1184-1189. Lycopene a natural antioxidant found in many ripe fruits included tomatoes, seems to reduce the risk of exercise-induced asthma in some patients, Israeli researchers report in the December Issue of Allergy.

6) Oolong Tea May Relieve Symptoms of Atopic Dermatitis, Reuiters, January 15, 2001. (often acompanies asthma--In their study, drinking 3 cups of oolong tea daily relieved the symptoms of atopic dermatitis, a disorder that causes itchy, scaly skin on the insides of elbows, the backs of the knees, and on the face.

National Jewish Medical and Research Center
http://www.njc.org/index.html

One of the best sources of conventional information on Asthma--cutting edge research. Xolair is the next level of cutting edge asthma/allergy treatment---its injected but looks promising regarding both allergies and inflammation.


Good luck.

[Grinding Hands]

I heard green tea helps allergies. My allergic reactions are very painful. My chest where the lung meridian starts by the end of pectoral starts to get sore inside and out. The chest gets inflamed. The muscles feel like i was doing heavy weights. My throat gets swollen and the muscles tighten. My lymphnodes swell up feeling like someone is stabbing me there. My nose feels like i snort cayenne for a buzz. Im not showing off like my allergies are worse then you guys. But this is everyday! Im sick of it. And I didnt even mention the asthma. My body sometimes forgets to breath on its own. I wake up all of a sudden taking deep breaths.

[GLW]

The forgetting to breathe MAY be asthma...but have you been checked for Sleep Apnea?

This is a disorder where you do not breathe while sleeping. Those that have it usually feel tired a lot (sleep interrupted and all). It CAN be a dangerous condition...and lead to things like heart attacks ...

[Grinding Hands]

Thats just great! I just started getting this because of the allergies

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

Look for someone who knows Qigong 18. Perform the routine slowly and attempt to breathe as deeply as possible. I have allergies/asthma and this routine has helped me very much. Have a good day.

"The movement of the breathe determines the movement of the body".

[flaco]

repulsive monkey, you are wrong on a few things, yes, lung and ki deficiency cause alot of these problems, but it can also be a problem of any of the 5 element cycles, including liver, or sp. so a pulse, diagnoses is a good strt. but we know by western nutrition also, that stress over a prolonged period, and body tension, can also lead to asthma. also the immune system may be hyper, not weak, and in tcm, rarely will anyone say theoir is a kidney excess, which is a weakness of that medicine. there can be a kidney excess, from prolong environment stress, or life stress,, which will send the immune system in overdrive, and you can become sensitive to anything.

read some of mark seems books on acupuncture physical medicine, and you will see what i mean. the man is a genius, and a great doc. also, i agree with shanghai, and beijing docs being the best. preferably go to someone with a phd from these schools and you are in good hands.

i am a tcm student, and yes, i can graduate, and have a legitimate liecense, but in reality, the pulse reading takes years of experince, if i were very sick, i would trust better in a doc from shanghai or beijing university, these are the 2 best schools in all of china.

[flaco]

what you are desribing, can also be silent acid reflux, and the fumes of acid irritate the lungs, its common to happen while sleeping, and being awakened by it. maybe look into this also. it caN CAUSE ALL THE CHEST TIGHTNESS AND PAINS YOU DESCRIBE

[JAZA]

Que haces flaco?
Kwantung is also a good university.

[Grinding Hands]

I think you on to something Flaco. I have stomach problems alot. What are somethings i can do?

Peace

[flaco]

go to a gastroenterologist, and ask to have an endoscopy done. dont waste your time with any barium x rays they will suggest. get an endoscopy, and they look inside your stomache, and see if you have reflux signs (burns in esophogus.) this is your start. if needed further, you get a 24 hr ph test, which is uncomfortable, but the insert a tube down your nose, and it stays for 24 hours, and it measures any acid in in your chest during the 24 hrs, this is the most accurate test.