An opinion of anatomy.

[OdderMensch]

I just got back from Ohio and had to shoot off a quick remark before I go to sleep.

If you are doing chi sau and you want to make sure you are not relying on sight, just close your eyes. I saw at this event an action I dubed the "Stevie Wonder" manuver. Meaning doing everything possible, except for SHUTTING THE EYELIDS, to avoid looking at your hands.

Just a thought.

[foolinthedeck]

huh?
are u recommending we shut our eyes or not?
i often look away during chi sau.. helps me just use feel and not sight. shutting the eyes is fine, but you may get hit, but hey you may get hit anyway.

one of my old sihings is certified blind. and he teaches now. sight is definitely overated. wing chun could even be the perfect 'sport' to teach to (young) blind people.

[OdderMensch]

I advocate closeing your eyes instead of looking away. when you turn your head it moves your spine and that in turn effects your overall body structure.

as for the blind, we had a blind student for some time, her Chi Sau skills were quite good.

In a fight, your eyes should remain open and looking at your opponents chest, at least as I am taught.

[Grabula]

I think I have to agree with OdderMensch, it seems looking away sort of tweaks your structure?

[sel]

looking away not only changes your structure, it also detracts from your focus. when you close your eyes, do you imagine that you are focussing your "sight" ahead of you? sight plays some part in determining your focus/striking point. i agree closing the eyes is better than looking away, but even better is using your visual focus to add to your overall physical and mental focus. (that is assuming that you are able sighted!)

[foolinthedeck]

sorry but my eyes arent connected to my spine in the same way that my neck is. i can look away with just my eyes and not my neck.

looking away rather than closing eyes is also good for periphral vision.

its fair enough, when i turn head i compromise posture, but at the same time keeping the head too rigid forwards can compromise relaxation.

[foolinthedeck]

sorry but my eyes arent connected to my spine in the same way that my neck is. i can look away with just my eyes and not my neck.

looking away rather than closing eyes is also good for periphral vision.

its fair enough, when i turn head i compromise posture, but at the same time keeping the head too rigid forwards can compromise relaxation.

i'm just glad that my look to the side got this thread moving!!!

[Grabula]

I think you may have missed the point foolinthedeck. First of all your intent is important, if your eyes aren't focused, your intent is misdirected to some degree, even a if a small one. "Where the eyes go the head tends to follow" someone once said to me.
You can keep your head forward without having to tense up, in all things relaxation is the key.

[anerlich]

I think you may have missed the point foolinthedeck.

I don't think he did, and yours was a pretty patronising remark. OM said that if you turn your head you affect your spine and misdirect your structure. FID's point is valid, that you can look away by moving your eyes without affecting your head and spinal alignment.

Besides the fact that it is meant to be a drill to develop touch sensitivity, looking directly at what's going on isn't all that great an idea anyway. Reactions to random incoming stimuli, like in fighting, sparring or free from chi sao, are best done with the peripheral vision. Looking directly at what's going on tends to narrow the focus and engage the conscious mind and the emotions. One more reason not to look in the guy's eyes.

I certainly agree than trying to do chi sao with a big kink in your neck is a bad idea.

[Grabula]

I don't think he did, and yours was a pretty patronising remark

I suppose if you wish to read it that way. But thats your issue not mine.


FID's point is valid, that you can look away by moving your eyes without affecting your head and spinal alignment.

You are correct, the eyes can move independantly from the head.


Besides the fact that it is meant to be a drill to develop touch sensitivity, looking directly at what's going on isn't all that great an idea anyway. Reactions to random incoming stimuli, like in fighting, sparring or free from chi sao, are best done with the peripheral vision.

I don't remember saying anything about looking directly at the action. I have seen a certain type of person sort of turn their head to "listen" to the action with their "sensitivity", however turning your head breaks the structure of your spine. As far as peripheral vision is concerned I have yet to see a professional fighter fight while looking away from his opponent, there's a reason for that, and an even better one in wing chun. Some would say you fight how you train as well. Your attention can be focused ahead of you without a staredown and without your peripheral vision being lost. As a matter of fact I would argue that looking ahead gives youa wider field of view then limiting you to peripheral vision.

[fa_jing]

Some arts advocate unfocusing the eyes, and looking "past" the opponent. Apparently peripheral vision is better for detecting movement than focussed vision.

[anerlich]

I don't remember saying anything about looking directly at the action.

I don't remember saying that you said such a thing. and I don't have an issue, just an opinion.

I agree that it's not necessary to look away. Keeping the eyes "soft" is really all that's required to avoid visual/cerebral/emotional fixation, tunnel vision, etc. The gaze is directed somewhere to the centre, but not like you're fixating on the guy's xiphoid. or anything.

[Grabula]

Keeping the eyes "soft"

that's a good way of putting that, I may have to borrow it if you don't mind.

[anerlich]

I may have to borrow it if you don't mind.

I would be honoured :cool:

Really it's not mine, a number of MA writers I've read talk that way.

OM has a valid point, though. The "looking away" behaviour is endemic. I've even had guys do the same thing in BJJ trying to pass my guard. I wonder why?

Presumably to avoid confusion between the visual and tactile stimuli and "sensory overload" - but closing the eyes perhaps brings an element of vulnerability to the psyche and thus is subconsciously avoided, so looking away feels safer?

I notice people do this a lot prior to launching an attack from rolling, myself included. Perhaps we are subconsciously trying to avoid letting the opponent see our intention, not that it helps if their touch sensitivity is good?

Maybe their Sifus do it (both my instructors and their teacher are continually looking around to see what the rest of the class is up to when I chi sao with them) and they copy that?

Maybe, per Neurolinguistic programming, the desirable mental state is linked to the direction of the gaze, and this explains the predilection? Perhaps someone with a better knowledge of the subject than mine (which is minimal) could comment?

Any other ideas?

[sleestack]

Hello,

There's a time for both eyes open and eyes closed. A big part of chi sao is learning from your mistakes and your success. Being able to see what's going on is important. IMHO, beginning, and even intermediate students should always keep their eyes open for maximum learning capability. Blindfolded chi sao should be for advanced practitioners. Using a blindfold is the best way. You can't cheat!!! :)

[OdderMensch]

This was a fun experiment, me and a partner did chi sau in a totaly dark room, and taped it with a night vision camera.

I did mean turning the head when I said looking away, BTW. But i've seen people bob around like birds (maybe a white crane aspect to the art :D)