Wing Chun basic principles

[Grabula]

What are the basic and most important principles in wing chun? What essentially is the foundation of the wingchun pyramid?

[TjD]

for the hands:
tan sau
fook sau
bong sau

for the legs:
yee gee kim yeung ma

[reneritchie]

In no particular order,

Using stillness to overcome movement
Achieving maximum efficiency with minimul effort
Receiving what comes, escorting what goes

There are others, of course. And FWIW, I believe the hands and body achieved the mechanics they did in order to better serve the principles.

[KingMonkey]

General

1) If the way is clear go forward
2) If the way is blocked stick to what is blocking
3) If the force is too great give way
4) If the opponent retreats follow

Force specific principles

1) Get rid of your own force
2) Get rid of your opponents force
3) Borrow your opponents force
4) Add your force onto your opponents

[Grabula]

reneritchie -
Using stillness to overcome movement Achieving maximum efficiency with minimul effort

Are these one and the same?





Receiving what comes, escorting what goes

I have heard this before, quite a bit actually, but could you explain what it means to you?

[John Weiland]

The most basic principle of Wing Chun is that it is a "woman's art." We often say that in Wing Chun if a woman cannot do it, then it isn't Wing Chun. Before you dismiss that, let me go on. If the intention of the inventors and practitioners of Wing Chun were to design an art for smaller (women) to overcome larger opponents, then what is necessary for that art?

Women have an innate ability to make finer (more precise) movements than men.

Women are more sensitive (not really, but this is the perception) and are more aware of their emotions (this last is true IMO).

Women are more natural athletes. To demonstrate this, look at little girls running: it's smooth and natural. Look at little boys running; many of them are already modifying their natural style and running with their upper bodies held "tightly." From this, we see why Wing Chun emphasizes lower body strength as a woman must (where women are equal to most men) over upper body strength (where men are usually stronger).

Just some random thoughts while I recover from the weekend.

Regards,

[Grabula]

John, I wouldn't dismiss what you are saying, I have heard this before. However, I find that at times some like to claim that it is an equalizer for smaller people and I think to some degree I have an issue with that, because I think that to a certain extant, size and strength always matter?
As for natural athletes, I think that runs to the individual and not the sex or the color. Some people are, some aren't

[TjD]

Originally posted by reneritchie
In no particular order,

Using stillness to overcome movement
Achieving maximum efficiency with minimul effort
Receiving what comes, escorting what goes

There are others, of course. And FWIW, I believe the hands and body achieved the mechanics they did in order to better serve the principles.

i agree that your 2nd and 3rd principles are suited to the hands and legs and that the hands and legs are what they are because of those principles.

i'm not too sure about "using stillness to overcome movement." IME, all the hands allow you to keep moving forward to reach the goal (be it a strike/whatever). tan sau/fook sau/bong sau all allow you get closer, to stay on the inside where structure is the most powerful (the center, or centerline(s)).

this is part of receiving what comes, escorting what goes coupled with using the centerline. Since we operate down the center, we recieve whats there and redirect it with tan/fook/bong then continue on our merry way to the target through the center.

[reneritchie]

John,

I agree with your post, but usually think of the Foshan ancestor, elderly, slender, not too tall, and not in the best of health, still kicking butt with WCK as my inspiration (perhaps I've known too many tough women ;)

[KingMonkey]

John I totally disagree with pretty much everything you say in your last post.

Women more natural athletes than men ? Totally baseless rubbish, sorry I dont mean to sound rude but that's the only appropriate response for such a silly statement.
Women's lower body strength a match for men ? Totally wrong, they are just as far behind their male counterparts in lower body strength as upper body.
Women have an innate ability to make finer (more precise) movements than men. What do you base this on ?

I am not a mysoginist or anything but male physical superiority is a reality. I would happily agree that some aspects of female behaviour make them well suited to wing chun. These are not based on them being better athletes or having disproportionately strong lower limbs:confused: , rather on their more natural softness and upper body flexibility.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by KingMonkey
John I totally disagree with pretty much everything you say in your last post.

Women more natural athletes than men ? Totally baseless rubbish, sorry I dont mean to sound rude but that's the only appropriate response for such a silly statement.

Let me rephrase. I didn't mean that women include more "natural athletes," but rather are more "natural" in athletic expression. They are less adapted to mental images of "how to run" and they just run. Again, I'm talking here about children, not adults: girls.


Women's lower body strength a match for men ? Totally wrong, they are just as far behind their male counterparts in lower body strength as upper body.

What are your sources for your statement? I have seen physical education studies that support my contention. Are you considering differences in body size? Does a small man of the same height and weight have a stronger lower body than a woman? And if it is true, don't you think that even so, women on average are closer in lower body strength to men than they are in upper body strength?


Women have an innate ability to make finer (more precise) movements than men. What do you base this on ?

I didn't expect to be debating this point. :rolleyes: I'm sure I've seen studies that demonstrate this. I leave the research to doubters. :p


I am not a mysoginist or anything

Are you sure? :p


but male physical superiority is a reality.

No argument on this from me. This doesn't contradict my contentions. Nor should we lose sight that this is the true Wing Chun paradigm for men as well as women.


I would happily agree that some aspects of female behaviour make them well suited to wing chun. These are not based on them being better athletes or having disproportionately strong lower limbs:confused:

I hope I have cleared up that misunderstanding over what I wrote. :)


, rather on their more natural softness and upper body flexibility.
I like women too. :D But, like Hendrik, I do San Francisco style Wing Chun. (Just an inside joke.)

Regards,

[foolinthedeck]

regarding the male / female thing.
we're all just individuals. the only difference i have ever seen is that women have less testosterone, which is essentially a chemical difference. everything else is attitude.

regarding the basic principles:

RELAX.

(as well as what has already been said i dont think anyone mentioned this.)

reneritchie - isnt another key principle simplicity??? what you said originally sounded really nice, but its a little too esoteric for most.

Receiving what comes, escorting what goes

could be interpreted in many ways such as:
getting hit, not getting hit
listening to teaching, forgeting what is useless
respecting new students, saying farewell to old students

care to simplify it???

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
regarding the male / female thing.
we're all just individuals.

Not me. :rolleyes:


the only difference i have ever seen is that women have less testosterone, which is essentially a chemical difference. everything else is attitude.

Viva la difference. I'm sorry you don't see one. :rolleyes: But, as far as Wing Chun goes, women are equal to men in ability to learn, and in fact, may have a slight edge.


regarding the basic principles:

RELAX.

Good. Being entirely relaxed throughout is key.

[AztecaPreist]

For me Wing Chun is like the way I look at life itself. It is about finding your path, then your journey on that path, and finally understanding your path. It sounds basic and simple when written and read, but once the journey begins then it is all up to you on how long and precious you make the journey. It is there that alot of people stop and walk no further. I know that alot of people will try tal about the physical aspect of wing chun but like I stated at the beginning (for me), and I feel the the physical is but an obstacle along that path to enlightenment.



Marti Mar

[sel]

Originally posted by Grabula
What are the basic and most important principles in wing chun? What essentially is the foundation of the wingchun pyramid?

all movements should be practical, simple, direct, economical and without reliance on brute force.

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
regarding the male / female thing.
we're all just individuals. the only difference i have ever seen is that women have less testosterone, which is essentially a chemical difference. everything else is attitude.

Beyond the ideas of being more relaxed and all that...

Don't women have a different pelvic construct? And tend to sit their weight differently than men?

[reneritchie]

Bunsypoo,


Don't women have a different pelvic construct?

Guess that makes me telling you to stay away from our MTL women rather redundant now, don't it????? 8P

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Bunsypoo,
Guess that makes me telling you to stay away from our MTL women rather redundant now, don't it????? 8P

Hmm, well I have to say that it means about as much to me now, as it did when you first said it.

god bless Mtl women.
(moment of silence)....

:)

[Lindley]

Grabula,

The basic principles of the Wing Chun Kung Fu system are the centerline theory (shortest distance between two points is a straight line), facing (doy Ying), equal hands (hand unity), and hand replacement (always have something in the center).

Fighting attributes of the system include balance, coordination, sensitivity, timing and relaxation. Distance awareness is another attribute. Tan Sao, Bong Sao, and Fuk Sao are techniques, often referred to as the "three seeds of Wing Chun".

Techniques are supported by the principles of the system and fighting attributes trained together. Each movement in Wing Chun is supported by the entire system.

If you use a real world example of a baseball hitter or golfer, how do they improve their performance? They already know that the technique is to "hit the ball". It is by following and understanding the guidelines (the principles) of what they do and working consistently to improve attributes similar to those mentioned above.

Good luck in your Kung Fu!

[Grabula]

How about "Take what comes" what do you people make of this saying?

[burnsypoo]

Hi Lindley, couple questions if you don't mind.

The way I understand it thus far, the centerline (you), and straight line (between you and them) theories are two different ideas. I'm curious as to how they become one idea.

Also, what is the difference between the "equal hands (hands unity)"as a basic principle, and co-ordination as an attribute? And to me, distance awareness would fall under the sensitivity attribute. Are the attributes just in the physical training sense?

Any thoughts would be 'preciated. Thanks!



Originally posted by Lindley
Grabula,

The basic principles of the Wing Chun Kung Fu system are the centerline theory (shortest distance between two points is a straight line), facing (doy Ying), equal hands (hand unity), and hand replacement (always have something in the center).

Fighting attributes of the system include balance, coordination, sensitivity, timing and relaxation. Distance awareness is another attribute. Tan Sao, Bong Sao, and Fuk Sao are techniques, often referred to as the "three seeds of Wing Chun".

Techniques are supported by the principles of the system and fighting attributes trained together. Each movement in Wing Chun is supported by the entire system.

If you use a real world example of a baseball hitter or golfer, how do they improve their performance? They already know that the technique is to "hit the ball". It is by following and understanding the guidelines (the principles) of what they do and working consistently to improve attributes similar to those mentioned above.

Good luck in your Kung Fu!

[S.Teebas]

John Weiland says:

The most basic principle of Wing Chun is that it is a "woman's art." We often say that in Wing Chun if a woman cannot do it, then it isn't Wing Chun

Although I don’t agree 100% with all of the points you’ve made on this thread, I think you make some good points!

In the industry I work in concepts are an important part of day-to-day work. Certain procedures are basically the same in their core concepts. And it’s the core concepts that need to be identified and then utilised. If I were to memorise every little variable of every aspect of my job, id be spending my time filling my brain up with literally hundreds of steps that, although would be usable, would not the most efficient way to go about things. Instead I can memorise the concepts; then when I need to perform said function I can recall that concept and know – from that concept - how to perform the job I’m required to do. Sometimes its possible to do new things that I’ve never had any experience with, or come into contact with just because knowledge of working MODELS shows me how things work.

Saying all of that; I believe that this in a way, relates to the idea of Wing Chun being a “Woman’s art”.

The story that most people see as being a legend or myth of the creation of WC: (Originating from a female martial artist who believed in creating a system of combat that does not rely on brute strength, that is also efficient and simple). In my opinion weather or not this story is true or not is of minor importance to me (I know others enjoy endless debates of WC history).
The importance of this story to me is that the highest form of WC can be implemented using the attributes that females innately abide by. Not necessarily out of choice, because some such ideas that come to mind are: not being able to push through strikes past your opponents defence. Pushing indicates a barrier exists, and if a toe-to–toe situation exists, inevitability the person who pushes the hardest is going to prevail in such a situation. To overcome this the WC practitioner has the tools available to ‘out-position’ the opponent. This way we create an environment that allows a clear path to strike without superior strength playing a determining factor.



Women are more sensitive (not really, but this is the perception) and are more aware of their emotions (this last is true IMO).
Well said, nothing to add from myself here.

Other points I agree on are that women have the ability to pick up WC at a faster rate (taking a soft approach to the art of course). Women in society are not generally designated roles that require as much physically demanding day-to-day interaction. I mean if there is a heavy object to lift or move, males will be the people doing this work. Lifting, in my experience, causes tension that can slow down the development of relaxation that’s required to unify body mass – hence WCs power source.

To summarise, the myth of WCs history is important to me because the story illustrates that female attributes (the idea, the model) are overtly emphasised in creating a proficient combatant. This also supports my understanding of the previous thread that talks about a paradigm shift.

[Grabula]

Wing Chun being a womans art is essentially metaphoric. You're not supposed to rely on strength or size to be able to use it effectively or right. It doesn't mean size doesn't come into play, but that if you use structure to overcome sloppiness, and softness to overcome strength, it could help you out.

[Lindley]

Burnsypoo,

The three movements in the first section of the siu nim tao may provide some insight to your question about how your body centerline and the concept of shortest distance become one idea.

What is the difference between the "equal hands (hands unity)"as a basic principle, and co-ordination as an attribute? The same as the difference between a principle and an attribute. A principle generally serves as a guide for the chosen activity, while an attribute is something associated to the individual, whose level of mastery is achieved through some method - a drill or exercise. Your training aims at developing those attributes. It is your understanding of the principles and this development of attributes which support techniques.

Distance Awareness is a process of tuning yourself by understanding the relational distance between you and your opponent/partner. You cannot hit what is out of your range and you can be in trouble should someone penetrate your "boundary" causing you to violate principle. Your definition would be appropriate for close (engagement) range, especially during standard Chi Sao, where there is contact. However, sensitivity would not apply when discussing kicking range or other methods of closing the gap prior to engagement.

A good way to gain some understanding of all this is to think of something you do well and the process you went through to get to some level of proficiency. A useful example can be the process of learning to drive a stick shift car. When you start out, the principles are the same for anyone - shifting the clutch and changing the gears in some manner to get you to move. Not so easy as most people stall the car or buck it up and down etc. Before long, you can shift gears while drinking and talking on a cellphone. You develope a "feel" for the gear positions. When you practice, eventually things like timing and coordination and relaxation play a greater role in your ability to become better. Swimming and golfing are other examples that if if you study the process from beginner to expert, many who are good at it will talk about how they trained the attributes mentioned.

It is often said "how can you train something if you do not understand it?" Write down those attributes - balance, coordination, sensitivity, timing, and relaxation. Get their definitions from a dictionary and then add your own interpretation by using the activity you do well in (or feel most comfortable doing). Apply that understanding, one at a time, to your training. Set a period of time focusing on each.

Whether you are correct or incorrect in your analysis will show up in our "laboratory" - Chi Sao. What you will come up with is your own creativity and a powerful understanding how this relates to burnsypoo.

Good luck.