Boxer vs. Grappler [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

JKogas

05-04-2003, 06:54 AM

It's all relative. Is the boxer better at his boxing than the grappler is at grappling?! You have to take in consideration that some people suck at what they do.

Then the question becomes, who is better at maintaining the range in which they're more comfortable. If the boxer is good at staying on his feet, it's going to be a long night for a pure grappler.

Boxer's don't generally practice sprawling however while grapplers DO practice closing against strikes in most cases. So again, it comes down to who can obtain their favored range.

-John

BAI HE

05-06-2003, 07:44 AM

Roy Jones is also very very fleet of foot, I think he'd
be pretty tought to shoot.
If he catches the grappler coming in with an
un-gloved shot? It's lights out, no ifs ands
or buts.

A good illustration of this his the body shot he dropped
Virgil Hill with. it sounded like a ****ing gunshot.

Vitor Belfort had a pretty serious boxing backround
if i recall.

Nevermind

05-06-2003, 12:48 PM

Laverne Clark is a pure boxer and he did pretty well in the UFC. I forget which one though. I'm sure if a boxer focused his training towards the kind of attacks expected in a MMA competition, he could have a good showing. Just my opinion. Anyone here remember seeing Laverne Clark in the UFC?

The Yellow Dart

05-06-2003, 12:58 PM

If he was able to keep his distance and dodge any shoots or takedowns, he'd be OK. Especially if he could follow up with a nice shot to the melon.

I'd also venture that most boxers' conditioning is the equal or better than most MMA fighters.

Merryprankster

05-06-2003, 04:06 PM

A straight boxer would likely lose to a straight grappler, 9 times out of 10--I'm allowing for a punch on the button from a fast, hard hitting guy on the way in.

Why? Because a straight grappler has learned two ranges of fighting--standing and the ground--his stand-up game may be different from the boxers, but it's still a stand up game and its whole goal is to take the boxer to a place where his punches lack KO power. And one punch KOs aren't that common--and that's about what you've got time for when a shot's coming your way even without a set up.

That simple. Train the boxer to defend kicks and takedowns and we've got a completely different ballgame.

yuanfen

05-06-2003, 07:09 PM

MP sez:

That simple. Train the boxer to defend kicks and takedowns and we've got a completely different ballgame.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Good point. Some boxers know how to adjust to the task at hand.
Never heard of Melton Bowen as a skillful boxer.
Skillful boxers make more money boxing.....

BAI HE

05-07-2003, 11:20 AM

"A straight boxer would likely lose to a straight grappler, 9 times out of 10--I'm allowing for a punch on the button from a fast, hard hitting guy on the way in."

You'd allow a professional boxer to punch you
on the button with no gloves on? And you think
you'd be concious or unfazed?

Merryprankster

05-07-2003, 03:09 PM

That's where 9 times out of 10 comes in. Take away that one punch KO ability and I'll up it to 99 out of 100, because once a grappler is in on somebody without grappling defenses of any sort beyond natural thrashing, balance is hosed.

FOOTWORK DOESN'T CUT IT. You need more than that to defend a takedown.

Once balance is screwed up, power is gone. And hitting somebody on the button who's shooting isn't as simple as it sounds--or that would be the recommended defense and we'd see a lot more KO's that way. But we don't. I have NEVER been hit on the way in while shooting. I've been hit after my opponent has successfully defended, and people who have tried to hit me on the way in have typically annoyed me, but nothing else. It does happen that people get hit on the button on the way in--but it's not common, and unless the boxer gets in that punch, once the grappler is in, he's probably not getting a second well-balanced punch off.

Teach our hypothetical pro boxer to maintain his upright position and fire back, and what you've got is a now extremely dangerous person.

Take a guy like RJJ and teach him some grappling defense for about 9 months and you've got a low-level A-class fighter in the MMA world. Give him about a year and a half and he's severely dangerous to everybody but top quality takedown artists.

Now, as to me, personally, I'm gifted with a good chin. I have absolutely no interest in exploring how good it is, and I suspect that a pro boxer who was a puncher and not just a boxer, would probably take my head off if I just let him whack me.

BAI HE

05-08-2003, 06:58 AM

That makes more sense.

Internal Boxer

05-09-2003, 04:29 AM

Well in my opinion if the boxer studies to stop take downs and clinching then he is no longer a boxer he is a mixed martial artist, despite the fact his primary art is boxing!! He is evovling as a fighter to deal with more realistic scenarios, rather than, 100% sport based combat.

STUDD WILSON

05-22-2003, 09:45 PM

I'm sorry but MMA in my opinion is not "realistic". Sure it isn't controlled as in a kickboxing match, but Ive frequented bars where Ive seen dozens of fights break out over the years and few, if any, have ever resembled a MMA match. One there are no weapons - seen many a pool cue bahed over someones head. Ive really only seen 3 fights go to the ground and in two the bouncers pulled the guy on top off and in another, one of the friends of the guy on bottom smashed a chair over the back of the guy who was on top. THe whole BJJ MMA thing can save your ass in a fight - hell any fighting techniques can, but I have yet to see two guys roll around on the floor for 15 or so minutes until one gets the upper hand. Definately not real world.

Merryprankster

05-23-2003, 03:15 AM

I use my wrestling and BJJ to get up and run and avoid getting taken down. I'm not sure why anybody would want to spend 15 minutes on a bar floor.

FWIW, NO training is real world. The Kwoon has rules too. Real world is real world. The idea is to get as close as possible without untoward injury risk.

KKD

05-23-2003, 08:34 AM

I've been at it about 23 yrs myself and I worked with a guy who went crazy over the grappling and I used to tell him that is very good, but limited (as all systems are). Well, he was in Toronto one weekend and got into it with some guy and he took him down and the next thing he knew, someone with cowboy boots is caving in his face.

He came to work a week later (hospital) and through his mashed mush, he said he really thought about what I said..

Beware multiple opponents, weapons and always watch out for the drunken bystanders who will suddenly throw in a boot or two for kicks...

I remember a gracie tape (before it was 'in') that showed a large black boxer who was down and reached for gracie's eye's and the ref moved his hands. He eventually lost, but I would have given the win to him, cause thems the real world... LOL...

My .02

Dark Knight

05-23-2003, 11:46 AM

Many people are only seeing a small picture. The reason BJJ wins is not because of the superior technique, but because they train like they fight. Take what you do right now, then a couple times a week put on gloves and spar with a resisting opponent. Both of you can grab, punch, elbow… Next time you get into a fight, your fighting skills are going to be much much greater. That’s what Boxing, Kickboxing, Judo, BJJ, Wrestling have. They train as they fight.

Another part of the picture people are missing is what is taught in BJJ and more so in MMA schools. They are working hard on striking. Punching, Kicking, elbow strikes. You guys that think that they only grapple have seen very little of what they do. Its called MMA for a reason, it’s a mix of styles. They want to know how to train to hit as hard as possible, what will take someone down with one clean shot. If you got a big guy trying to take you down, you need to hit him hard enough to slow him down, not just tap him.

Some people think when a grappler (Not really a good description of a MMA) shoots in why not elbow him on top of the head. Well they can, if it worked that easily they would stop shooting in. Don’t think they haven’t thought of this.

Some of these remarks remind me of a TKD guy who told me they way to beat a Ju-Jitsu guy is to throw a round house kick at him because they never seen one before. I was shocked that he thought JJ does not practice roundhouse kicks.

Many people here have the same mentality. They believe the MMA croud never thought of an elbow, or to step back to stop a takedown. Or I don’t understand why so many think MMA does not practice striking.

Go to straightblastgym.com and by the first functional JKD series. It will show you what MMA is doing.

Unstoppable

05-25-2003, 10:13 PM

KKD No Offense to UR friend But that Story Just says he Cant fight not that Grappling is limited.

If he was Smart he would have take the Guy down by Dumping him On his Head or Whatever and Not follow him Down.

Or if He did Go to Ground he Should stay Upright as Possible and Kneeride.

Sorry to say it But your buddy is Just dumb thats like Trying to start a strreetfight with a Spinning Back Kick and then Saying that Because it doesnt work in That situation then No MA that HAS a spinning Back Kick Has the COrrect Resopnse to that Situation

'MegaPoint

05-29-2003, 08:32 AM

RJJ as he was called would kick most NHB guys ass es in the street. He is a real martial artisit and fighter. Remember the "Chicken Wing" strike? See Kata Pinan Sandan. He is the epitome of sporty guys but he like Chris Bird and a couple of other boxers would kick practically anyone's as s! They can fight for real.

As for being successful at MMAs. We are seeing that strikers are becoming much more successful in these matches than the grapplers. This is especially true of the BJJers. They let the cat out of the bag now everyone has their number. Did you know that 'secret' and 'sacred' are from the same root word? I guess the Gracie's didn't.

Roy Jones would be considered an A+ fighter NHB or on the street, because he played football and is an Olympic caliber athlete and a real bad as s mo-fo. He ain't some guy on a forum detailing his 5 years of fighting experience. Please! Show Roy some leg kicking techs and even with limited practice he would kick everyone of those pseudo super-athletes as ses. C'mon now!!!

KKD

05-29-2003, 08:50 AM

KKD No Offense to UR friend But that Story Just says he Cant fight not that Grappling is limited.

>>I said I worked with him. Hes an aquaintance (not really a friend - I think he's an arrogant SOB, but he is also about 5'10, 220 lbs of tough muscle, so he is a fairly powerful dude)... However, I used to train with a couple of cops and we would do knife tactics and you DO NOT want to grapple with a blade. I dont care how good you think you are, you're gonna die. Also, bouncing for 4 years taught me to NOT go to the ground, since there is always someone else waiting to jump in (or at least kick/cut/hit with chair etc...)..

If he was Smart he would have take the Guy down by Dumping him On his Head or Whatever and Not follow him Down.

>>I wasn't there, but how do you know the other guy wasn't a large guy (or a grappler??)... Also, the old dump on the head can get you 8-20 years where you'll have lots of time practicing multiple opponent techniques...LOL (and all the free sex you want (or dont....LOL... Thems the real world...

Or if He did Go to Ground he Should stay Upright as Possible and Kneeride.

>> Again, I wasn't there, but it is so much easier in the 'school' to practice and do things, but when the moment truly hits, alot of people forget their stuff because of panic, pain, mental blocks etc etc....

Sorry to say it But your buddy is Just dumb thats like Trying to start a strreetfight with a Spinning Back Kick and then Saying that Because it doesnt work in That situation then No MA that HAS a spinning Back Kick Has the COrrect Resopnse to that Situation

>> I think he's a schmuck myself, but he just works here.. Sounded like they lipped off to each other and went at it.. fast and furious.... Then they were on the floor and he was getting boot from the side WHILE the guy on the ground was actually fighting back...

I think all the grappling schools should teach multiple attackers like other good shcools... 2 (start low - or more) people SIMULTANEOUSLY attacking the student... Ahhhhhhhhh.... swarming does wonders for the mental training as well....

again... my .02...

Merryprankster

05-29-2003, 09:37 AM

I've done a bit of one attacker, figure out how to bail. The other two start slightly off to the side and come in at you. You have to bail out and run.

For those who think this isn't much pressure, I might point out that we started off with the opponent mounted, and you have to get up and leave.

I might also point out that it's much harder when your opponent has at least some training, and knows all he has to do is hold on for the 'win'.

If I hadn't trained grappling, I'd probably get stomped. Except, since I grapple, I was able to reverse position and leave.

Dark Knight

05-30-2003, 09:11 AM

As for being successful at MMAs. We are seeing that strikers are becoming much more successful in these matches than the grapplers. This is especially true of the BJJers. They let the cat out of the bag now everyone has their number. Did you know that 'secret' and 'sacred' are from the same root word? I guess the Gracie's didn't.

Anyone today who is training in NHB is training hard on striking skills. They have known for years the importance. Dont think that MMA is about grappling alone. Its primary because to win you take the guy down and work a submission, but they are training standup skills just as hard, a KO is also a win. But you need both skills and you need to be strong in both.

Pick up Matt Thortons Funtional JKD, ( www.straightblastgym.com ) he does NHB, see for yourself what the training is. Invest a little money into an education that way you dont look bad when you post.

Dark Knight

05-30-2003, 09:22 AM

BTW, I am not a MMA, guy. I have been in the arts over 25 years and worked out with many people. I did alot of research and found answers first hand. I reccomend the same to everyone. When someone walks in and wants to do randori with you, make sure you know what it is. Or someone tells you about Pai shih.

Invest some time and money, broaden your mind along with your skills.

Yung Apprentice

06-26-2003, 11:46 PM

Certain boxers would fair better then others. Roy is one that I think would fair rather well. He is quick enough to keep it at a boxing range. Teach him how to avoid the takedown, just in case, and he would probably win a title.

Every one style has a hole in it, wether it's BJJ or KF. You just need to find out for yourself if it's better to become a specialist, or a MMA.

rogue

06-27-2003, 02:22 PM

I'm not sure why anybody would want to spend 15 minutes on a bar floor. 11 words MP, "To fish a dropped bar rag from behind the cigerette machine."
MMMMMMMMMMMM bar rags!

Ghostface

07-01-2003, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by Yung Apprentice
Certain boxers would fair better then others. Roy is one that I think would fair rather well. He is quick enough to keep it at a boxing range. Teach him how to avoid the takedown, just in case, and he would probably win a title.

Every one style has a hole in it, wether it's BJJ or KF. You just need to find out for yourself if it's better to become a specialist, or a MMA.

Yea thats kinda how I saw it.......you can't counter quickness.

Merryprankster

07-02-2003, 04:09 AM

Actually you can. You counter quickness with pressure/immobilization. With fast guys, you shoot/clinch and takedown.

yes, I'm aware you're talking about an RJJ trained in takedown defense, but keeping the pressure on with the clinching and shooting will severely inhibit his speed.

FWIW, RJJ's footwork/speed isn't good enough to avoid a takedown. Footwork just isn't sufficient. Even the best still can't avoid contact, just like RJJ still gets hit.

Djimbe

07-10-2003, 07:06 AM

Dark Knight :

Do you get a Commission , or something ?

EuropeanBoxer

07-17-2003, 10:02 AM

A boxer would totally **** up agrappler. They have the worst hand technique i have ever seen. I saw one fight where this fat slow ugly guy threw a JAB and knocked the other guy out. KNOCKED OUT BY A JAB!!!!! Just give the guy some defense on take downs and you got one dead grappler.

ewallace

07-17-2003, 10:05 AM

:rolleyes:

Merryprankster

07-18-2003, 02:19 AM

boxer would totally **** up agrappler. They have the worst hand technique i have ever seen. I saw one fight where this fat slow ugly guy threw a JAB and knocked the other guy out. KNOCKED OUT BY A JAB!!!!! Just give the guy some defense on take downs and you got one dead grappler.

Translation: "Hi. I'm uninformed but that doesn't stop me from having an opinion."

The fat slow ugly guy you refer to was Emmanuel Yarborough--quite possibly the fattest, slowest, ugliest Sumo wrestler you'lll ever find. I believe it was Keith Hackney who KO'd him.

Ren Blade

07-18-2003, 09:23 AM

A boxer, Melton Bowen, lost to a Ninjitsu figher, Steve Jennum, in Ultimate Fighting Championship 3, also probably titled on the vhs tape "The American Dream" on
September 9, 1994 in Charlotte, NC.

Steve hip tossed the boxer onto the ground and then he locked the boxer's arm up in an armbar. The boxer tapped out before his joint would snap. Watch the Ultimate Fighting Championship 3.

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/eventinfo.cfm?eventid=10

Steve Jennum-Ninjitsu
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/displayfighter.cfm?fighterid=44

Melton Bowen-Boxing
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/displayfighter.cfm?fighterid=51

Here's how Melton Bowen the boxer loss.
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/sherdogsfightpics.cfm?matchId=45#

yuanfen

07-21-2003, 06:52 AM

On the so called boxer- funny. That guy with gloves just standing there and moving his hands- was no real top level boxer.
The good ones can make more money in boxing than in mma.

chokemaster

08-18-2003, 09:41 AM

I agree 9 out of 10 times the boxer will lose. It would be great to see a top level boxer with some wrestling experience compete though.

BAI HE

08-18-2003, 11:11 AM

I disagree. More and more MMA fights are ending with standing
punches ie: Silva V. Sak.

Look at Belfort (probably the best boxing skills in MMA)
crushing Silva.

Now imagine if that was Roy Jones or Bernard Hopkins fighting Silva. He wouldn't have got up as fast.

A grappler against a PROFESSIONAL Boxer? He'd better get
the boxer on the ground quick. While he's angling for say a shoot
or a clinch he is exposed to the boxer's specialty range.

A MMA guy vs. a Professional Boxer in a boxing format?
There isn't an MMA striker who would last in that format.

Then again in boxing the difference between an accomplished Amatuer and a serious pro is the difference between night and day.

chokemaster

08-18-2003, 04:08 PM

I just wanted to mention that all three guys you mentioned are grapplers also.
Silva - Brown belt BJJ
Belfort- Black belt BJJ
Sak- awesome wrestler and Black belt judo

chokemaster

08-18-2003, 04:12 PM

Also Silva would love to have a rematch with Belfort, I don't think it would end up the same way.

LEGEND

08-18-2003, 07:15 PM

"A grappler against a PROFESSIONAL Boxer?"

A grappler would and have killed professional boxers with NO KNOWLEDGE of take down defense.

A grappler would and have been killed by professional boxers with knowledge of take down defense.

BAI HE

08-19-2003, 05:34 AM

"A grappler would and have killed professional boxers with NO KNOWLEDGE of take down defense."

It's not like 9 times out of 10. More like 5 out of 10 maybe.
Sak's a good grappler right?
Do you think he could close the distance and take
down Roy Jones?
I don't. Call it a matter of opinion.

BAI HE

08-19-2003, 05:38 AM

Silva - Brown belt BJJ

Ends most fights standing and striking.

Belfort- Black belt BJJ

Amatuer boxer as well.

Dark Knight

08-19-2003, 09:54 AM

"A grappler would and have killed professional boxers with NO KNOWLEDGE of take down defense."

It's not like 9 times out of 10. More like 5 out of 10 maybe.

Melton Bowen was the IBF heavy weight champion when he fought Steve Jennum.

"Silva - Brown belt BJJ

Ends most fights standing and striking.

Belfort- Black belt BJJ

Amatuer boxer as well."

Because of their knowledge of BJJ they control the fight. A boxer is not trained to fight NHB and would losse just as Bowen did.

But if he trained for it, just like Silva and Belfort, then they have and advantage.

If the boxers could defeat the NHB fighters that easily they would stop by and win a couple tournaments on the way home and make an extra couple hundred thousand.

BAI HE

08-19-2003, 10:41 AM

Bowen?

Heavyweight Melton Bowen had a respectable record at 35-8, but never beat a legit fighter. Basically Bowen lost to notable's like Briggs by KO in the first round, lost to Tony Tubbs by decision, and lost to Carl "The Truth" Williams by KO. His record was impressive, but he fought his share of tomato cans.

When Bowen fought in the UFC, he did o.k. against policeman Steve Jennum. He landed some good shots, but in the end, it was Jennum securing the arm bar for the win.

Using BJJ to control a fight? Are you saying boxer's can't control a fight?
I have three friends who box or boxed professionally and I can say they are tough to mess with. Wether you go for a clinch
grab or throw, they are not easy marks. Especially when the start in with the elbows and rabbit punches.

In a thread like this before a guy stated KO's don't happen often
in the street. One of my friends fought alot and I'd have to take off my shoes to count the number of people I've seen him lay out, that includes a serious wrestler.
Lol - He even made one of Boston's 10 toughest people in the mag "Improper Bostonian".

Anyhoo,
I am in no way implying one or the other is a superior art. I just don't buy the 9 out of ten thing. Again, just differnce of opinion.

Then we have to consider how good is the grappler and how good is the boxer. Giving the boxer a 1 in 10 chance just isn't realistic to me.

chokemaster

08-19-2003, 12:14 PM

Good points BAI HE,

But to be a successful MMA fighter you must be well rounded in all ranges.

One style is not going to work to be a champion in any MMA event.

The 1 in 10 times thing depends on the individuals fighting for sure.

Dark Knight

08-19-2003, 12:26 PM

A grappler against a PROFESSIONAL Boxer?

If you are comparing to a professional boxer lets look at how a professional NHB fighter is training. No one is a straight grappler, the majority are learning boxing. They train the way boxers train with the other skills. Obviously in a pure boxing match the boxer will win because he is specializing in it.

In a NHB event the boxers are at a disadvantage because they are not training for the grappling. Its not hard to take down someone who does not understand how to defend it. Bowen showed that when Jennum threw him. He stood there waiting for it to happen.

In controlling a fight, a boxer is going to have a hard time stopping a double leg, or the many more takedowns that are going to happen, he doesn’t train for it.

Silva and Belfort are two of many NHB fighters that are training in boxing. Straight Blast Gym has been putting out fighters that are winning, they don’t talk about MT or Kick Boxing for training on strikes, they train in Boxing. But to be successful in NHB you have to be able to fight in a clinch, and on the ground. Even if you don’t want to be on the ground you need to know how to defend against it and how to stop a submission or takedown. Boxing alone will not suffice.

BAI HE

08-19-2003, 12:45 PM

BlackJack. I agree with most of what you said.
The only point I dispute is the " 9 times out of ten"
I don't and won't buy it.

It also comes down to grappling skill. A lot grapplers like to cite
some of the greats like " The Gracies do this and that blahblah..."
But do they have the skill level to pull it off?
I know there are a lot of good ground workers on this board but
can you say that you can walk into a boxing gym have a go with a decent boxer and win nine times out of ten?

Remember, all it takes is one good shot and the fight is all over.

BTW I have nothing against grappling. My preference is to throw from the bridge everytime.

Dark Knight

08-19-2003, 12:46 PM

"Heavyweight Melton Bowen had a respectable record at 35-8, but never beat a legit fighter. Basically Bowen lost to notable's like Briggs by KO in the first round, lost to Tony Tubbs by decision, and lost to Carl "The Truth" Williams by KO. His record was impressive, but he fought his share of tomato cans.

When Bowen fought in the UFC, he did o.k. against policeman Steve Jennum. He landed some good shots, but in the end, it was Jennum securing the arm bar for the win. "

http://www.boxinginsider.net/columns/stories/55443010.php

It was an OK article

BAI HE

08-19-2003, 12:46 PM

Ooops I meant Dark Knight not black Jack.

Dark Knight

08-19-2003, 12:49 PM

And in comparison, Steve is not a top NHB fighter and Bowen was way ahead of Jennum in fighting skills, but he wasnt prepared to be thrown let alone armbared.

Dark Knight

08-19-2003, 12:52 PM

The Gracies do this and that blahblah..."

I hate that too. I cant beat someone based on how well someone else fights.

BAI HE

08-19-2003, 12:55 PM

Re: Gracies - LOL.

Bowen Vs. Jennum?

There's your 1 out of 10 bro'.

mantisben

08-19-2003, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by Dark Knight
And in comparison, Steve is not a top NHB fighter and Bowen was way ahead of Jennum in fighting skills, but he wasnt prepared to be thrown let alone armbared.
Steve Jennum may not have been a top NHB fighter, but according to a link that was posted on this thread, Steve Jennum defeated Harold Howard (Strikes), and Harold Howard defeated Royce Gracie in a TKO (Towel thrown at start of match). It appears this all happened in 9-9-1994 at "UFC 3 - American Dream".

Apparently, Steve, although not at the top of the NHB sport, wasn't at the bottom either.

Anyone know how Harold got a TKO win against Royce Gracie?

chokemaster

08-20-2003, 05:25 AM

Royce never fought Howard, they threw in the towel right when Royce got in the ring.

Royce fought Kimo before the Howard match and he was dehydrated and couldn't go on.

Kimo & Joe Son ran out to the middle of the ring and jumped for joy it was funny as hell, Even though Royce beat Kimo Via armbar It was the closest anyone had come to beating Royce in the UFC.

Ryu

08-20-2003, 07:09 AM

Just a little anecdote.

the hardest person I've ever had to take down or clinch was (and still is :D ) my father....whom was a Golden Gloves Boxer out of Tenessee.

Ryu

mantisben

08-20-2003, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by chokemaster
Royce never fought Howard, they threw in the towel right when Royce got in the ring.

Ahh! I knew there was something strange about the "...threw in the towel at the start of the match." statement.

Dark Knight

08-20-2003, 08:43 AM

Kimo claimed the victory because Royce could not even start the next fight.

But Kimo did tap out, even if he hurt Royce enough to make him drop out.

Steve was an alternate that was chosen when other fighters had to drop out. Howard was not a top fighter. Thats one of the problems with the earlier UFC's. Coleman won one because he had no one to fight for the final fight. He won by default.